Women who play male characters (in games)

[Frozen_Feet]

So they'd know the positive attention is a lie and it wouldn't work?

Nevermind the myriad tricks a human can use to delude himself, or that can be used to delude him, let me phrase it this way: if someone offers you a free movie ticket, do you immediately after leaving the theater fixate on how you did nothing to earn it?

Or, if there's an interesting movie , but you lack the money to go to see it, which one strikes you as better option: don't go and later listen to your friends talk about how awesome it was, or be given a ticket by one of them so you too can see it?

[MLai]

Male on female rape is the most prevalent. Rape and sexual harassment is a gendered crime. And the point is that while stranger rape is the minority women are still constantly blamed for it. Well, women and rape victims in general are very often blamed for it.
And getting assaulted is unfair, getting robbed is unfair. Getting a crime inflicted on you is unfair, djeezes.

It's unfair, but it's not unfair to women. Because it's a street crime. That is, it's not particularly relevant to discussions on gender equality.

[HalfTangible]

Nevermind the myriad tricks a human can use to delude himself, or that can be used to delude him, let me phrase it this way: if someone offers you a free movie ticket, do you immediately after leaving the theater fixate on how you did nothing to earn it?

Or, if there's an interesting movie , but you lack the money to go to see it, which one strikes you as better option: don't go and later listen to your friends talk about how awesome it was, or be given a ticket by one of them so you too can see it?

For the former, no but you could very well fixate on how you've never made a movie, or if you do so often you could fixate on the fact that you've never bought a ticket yourself =/ Or your friends could, then refuse to give you any more tickets, and then you feel betrayed.

I fail to grasp the metaphor for the latter It's sailing over my head as to how that scenario is applicable to sex at all.

[Astrella]

It's unfair, but it's not unfair to women. Because it's a street crime. That is, it's not particularly relevant to discussions on gender equality.

Rape is not a street crime? It can be but it isn't one by default. And the different ways society and people react to rape victims of different gender definitely means that gender plays a big part in how rape takes place and how people deal with it.

[Pronounceable]

I am baffled at the course of action this thread must have taken to reach this point but I don't want to read 20+ pages to find out.

vvFacepalm elemental is a thing that must be invented.

[HalfTangible]

I am baffled at the course of action this thread must have taken to reach this point but I don't want to read 20+ pages to find out.

Roughly:

Women who play male characters -> Sexualization of female characters -> sexualization in general -> Sexism -> Ways to combat sexism without being sexist -> This.

[Kitten Champion]

I am baffled at the course of action this thread must have taken to reach this point but I don't want to read 20+ pages to find out.

vvFacepalm elemental is a thing that must be invented.

This is what happens when arguments never end.

[MLai]

Rape is not a street crime? It can be but it isn't one by default. And the different ways society and people react to rape victims of different gender definitely means that gender plays a big part in how rape takes place and how people deal with it.

My remark was in context of you talking about the street-crime-aspect of rape. Frozen had already clarified that most of rape is not street-crime-related, making hyperbolic reactions to catcalls comical. It was comical to me as well, in the context that street-crime-rape belongs in the category of violent street crimes, and you don't see New Yorkers all having stress disorders due to knowing it happens alot (to everyone) in NYC.

As for society's reaction to rape? It's still bad in places like India, leading to public protests for law changes. But in Western society it's not such an issue anymore. Nobody can say that male street rapists get away with their crimes in the USA. The murky part comes from date-rapes, and that fuzziness is understandable because it's all testimonial rather than evidence. And we get horror stories of men getting unjustifiably convicted for rape, because surely women can't be wrong or mean. I won't even get into TALK ABOUT men who are raped.

[HalfTangible]

In a pathetic attempt to get back on thread topic...

One thing I've heard from guys who play female characters in MMOs is that the guy wants something nice to look at while grinding monsters for hours on end. Is this the case for any females in the audience?

[MLai]

One thing I've heard from guys who play female characters in MMOs is that the guy wants something nice to look at while grinding monsters for hours on end. Is this the case for any females in the audience?

Ha ha, that would be a nice lead-in of how female-avatars are made for men, but are male-avatars made for women.

[Eonas]

Well, I do think there's some type of wish-fulfillment intrinsic to the act of gaming, especially roleplaying and videogaming. Witness all the people advertising RPGs as a means to 'be whoever you want'. Now, that's not the fundamental purpose of roleplaying games, of course, nor is it necessarily even a major reason for most people (and it shouldn't be). But it's there, more for some than for others.

(If you're still not convinced, go to Omegle, type 'rp' or 'roleplaying' into your interests, and play for maybe an hour or so. Then come back here and listen to me say 'I told you so'.)

And if I'm going to go wish-fulfill, I'm not going to want to be Quasimodo (in that wish-fulfilling alternate reality). I'm going to want to be James Bond.

[Remmirath]

One thing I've heard from guys who play female characters in MMOs is that the guy wants something nice to look at while grinding monsters for hours on end. Is this the case for any females in the audience?

Nah, not for me at least. I generally make a doomed attempt at actually roleplaying a character in MMORPGs, and then become bitter and dissatisfied when I realise that everyone else is running about shouting about wanting to sell their loot and what, and I begin to wonder why the game even has character creation built into it in the first place.

To answer the question more seriously, the idea of creating a character only or primarily to look good is rather alien to me. I make their appearance fit what I have in mind. I suppose if I were choosing a character based purely on appearance rather I would be more likely to make them male or female would depend on the game, but I'd probably just aim for the coolest suit of armour and call it good, thus making what they looked like before somewhat irrelevant. Oh, once I did try to make a character based on looking cool. It was a male Argonian in Skyrim, because they tend to end up more aggressive looking than the females. Character fell flat, though; didn't have anything else to back it up, so I stopped playing him rather quickly.

I have heard both men and women give that as a reason for playing the opposite in games, though.

[Avilan the Grey]

One thing I've heard from guys who play female characters in MMOs is that the guy wants something nice to look at while grinding monsters for hours on end. Is this the case for any females in the audience?

This is one of the most common explanations of younger (and older immature) players playing female characters. To a point I think it is true, especially in third person games, obviously, but I also suspect at least half of the people saying this are really finding it easier to explain to their 15 year old buddies why they insist on playing female characters.

Me? I am somewhere in the middle, or rather far to the "badass" side but I don't MIND it, exactly, if my character has a nice ass. That is not, however why I play female characters. (I am strangely obsessed with LOOKS though, and can keep starting a character over if I don't get the face just right).

[cobaltstarfire]

In a pathetic attempt to get back on thread topic...

One thing I've heard from guys who play female characters in MMOs is that the guy wants something nice to look at while grinding monsters for hours on end. Is this the case for any females in the audience?

Yay, I can participate again! (no takers on the cosplay thing kind of makes me sad)

As far a having something "nice" to grind to for hours, nah. Most of my choices seem to be based on whether something has an appearance that looks annoying to me, or voice acting that annoys me, or simply bores me.

Like the draenei males, I'd never play one because how they look annoys me.

Similarly female orcs have really annoying voices so I don't play as those either.

Humans (both male and female) are just...boring? They have boring jokes, and boring dances. They move boring, they're just boring. (they do get some bonus points though for how ridiculous their male cloth wearers look though).

Male trolls though? They look neat, they have tusks, and cool ears and pointy noses, and their animations are fun, and they generally amuse me with their strange goofy feralness, while still feeling dangerous or serious when necessary.

Female Tauren I also like, just cause they are so I dunno gentle feeling or something. They're relaxing. (although I wish they weren't so tall, I recall feeling like I'd go claustrophobic on many occasions when inside of areas built by the smaller races...)


I suppose it might be the same as "wanting something nice" to look at, although not motivated by the same desires or something? More like something interesting, that speaks to me on some level about the character in relation to their race and class.

While I never had a character in mind when I made most of my WoW toons, several of them did eventually grow a personality and story as I played them, and I think that may be it too. Models that have more character to start with are probably more interesting to me as a whole as well.

[Astrella]

In a pathetic attempt to get back on thread topic...

One thing I've heard from guys who play female characters in MMOs is that the guy wants something nice to look at while grinding monsters for hours on end. Is this the case for any females in the audience?

Sorta? Like... I tend to not play male characters because I tend to identify quite strongly with my characters, I am attracted to women but I'm generally not attracted in that way to characters I play? I do like playing characters that are interesting to look at, e.g. I played a Sylvari Elementalist in Guild Wars both because I think Sylvari look really neat and because playing a scholar class would mean I could dress her up in a frilly dress.

[SiuiS]

You know, if I'd said, "Argh, allergies. Sorry, but free peanut brownies would not be a good idea for me. Peanuts are evil (no offense)" then somehow I think people would've correctly inferred my meaning as "I have trouble eating peanuts", not "anyone who eats peanuts is a bad person".

Peanuts and intimacy are qualitatively different by magnitudes. You also, in your example, clearly establish both tone of humor and sense of opinion; Ht did neither.

I'm going to guess you guys are reading it as loaded because there are still reasonably prevalent belief systems that say sex (outside marriage) is evil, but honestly - he's clarified what he meant (that sex is not a good thing for him personally), none of you have any argument with that, so perhaps just drop it?

Drop what? He's allowed to clarify what he said but I am not? I'm not making an argument at him, I'm correcting his public misunderstanding of my point and trying to help him reconcile different speech modes of different people.

How a guy reacted to being 'appreciated' (by men who thought he was a woman)

Huh. Missed this link first time through.

I would consider that a joke. But one question from a non native speaker, is evil commonly used as a signifier of personal dislike? I would assume that it's a moral statement (when it's not a joking overstatement), but maybe it has different connotations in english.

Ish. It's hyperbolic and speaks more of certain cultural trends. Much like shouting "You fail!" At people.

I've already said I made a mistake in not clarifying that, but I have to ask again why I need to add 'imo' to a phrase that is opinion by definition. If I say 'red is the best color' it's obvious that it's an opinion.

It's not clearly opinion and being an opinion would not make it permissible purely on that fact. Opinion is not sacrosanct. Opinion can be wrong and opinion is most definitely arguable. "It's just an opinion" is a cop out, not a justification or defense.

Coid's opinion appears to be that I attempted deliberately to start a fight because I have a superiority complex. You have a very strange definition of 'friend' >.>

That is a strange reading of Coidzor's statements given that both he and I are saying there are errors in application. "You said the wrong thing" and "the thing you said could not convey what you intended" are about equal. They both literally break down to "thing said != thing intended".

Yes. I was responding to the implication that having positive sexual experiences would reduce such crimes. All this plan would do is institutionalize it =/

Please demonstrate how ensuring 100% of sexual experiences are positive leads to institutionalized sex crime.

Note that "positive" means descriptive, not prescriptive; the idea that you will be forced to Sex whether or not you like it and just told it was good is not permissible, as it is explicitly against the statement of action in this Socratic exercise.

Then providing a positive experience for all is literally impossible because - as stated previously - not everyone enjoys or appreciates sex.

Everyone gets a positive sexual experience. Everyone. For an ace, this means their "first time" would be Not Sex. I would imagine someone personable respecting their boundaries would qualify as a positive experience, Yes?

...It is used to express personal dislike, but usually in an offhand, comical way (Which, looking back, the terseness of the post indicated... but chat doesn't convey tone).

Sort of like my constant rants about how the "Great Outdoors" are Evil, and Chickens are Evil, and Dog Food is evil, and kittens are Evil (Though for kittens, it's more affectionate, like "Who's my little bloodthirsty psychopath! Yes you are!")

HT is always that terse in my experience. So that wasn't a signifier. XD

@Ifni:

Last time I checked Finland's corresponding statistics, the most common types of rape has the following traits:

1. The people involved already know each other
2. The event happens in private, after both parties have already agreed to go to apartment of one.
3. Both are drunk out of their wits.
4. One party wants it, the other doesn't, or one party passes out, other proceeds nonetheless.

The reason why women being afraid of cat-callers is comical is because those people are not the ones likely to rape them. Their spouses, boyfriends and one-night-stands are. Minority of rapes are stranger-on-stranger.

Last I checked, the majority of rape victims were men. :?
Or maybe that was "the most cases of rape have male victims", I suppose a repeatedly brutalized single individual would skew statistics. Yay prison.

How exactly did we get to here from "women who play male characters in games?"

Shush, I'm having fun~
More realistically, someone mentioned why they do what they do, another person said "that's silly and or you're wrong" and the Internet collective said "let's analyze, shall we?"

Which is a good thing. People tend to assume heuristic patterns without stopping to break down causes and such. Getting F_F in here has been quite the treat. Jovial tone, valid information, always good.

The answer is "the answer to why women play men is more complex than we expected".

It's the expected trajectory of any thread with "Women" in the title.

Semantic debates with Half_Tangible are the expected result?

[QUOTE=HalfTangible;16838971]
I don't think it's a stretch to say that the experience isn't going to be positive every single time. Hence, institutionalized negative sexual experiences (rape, harrasment, etc etc)[/wuote]

1. Why would an experience you would call positive not be positive? That's rhetorical quibbling.
2. We already have institutionalized rape and harassment. It wouldn't get worse unless something went very wrong and no one bothered to correct t, which belies both the action and intention.

Because it's guaranteed, ie, there's no domination and it's all through someone else's control? Because feelings of helplessness comes from things besides sex? Because saying that sex is 'guaranteed' creates an entitlement mentality?

That actually doesn't pan out for an experience like it does for an object. Everyone is guaranteed a lot of things and because they can reasonably be expected to live for half a century they still develop emotional responses to it based on presentation and that response mechanism still shapes them afterward unless they actively work against it.

Further, if everyone is entitled to One (1) [b]Good[/i] experience, that wouldn't become commonplace and disregardable. It would create a culture geared towards trying to replicate good experiences on both sides (here we hit the potential snag of what's good for the goose is terrible for the gander, though?), and it would make no healthy sexual relationships weird, which would disincentive them.

If the issue were a lack of positive attention, then rape/sexual harrasment would not be the crime to spawn from it because the attention there isn't even remotely positive. Kidnapping until the victim begins suffering from stockholm, maybe.

Hold on. Odin following this right, you're equating a healthy relational rote of passage with rape and sexual harassment? I'm confused. I think I lost track of what you two were saying. There's a translation error there. Help?

Now that I think about it, actually, we have real-world scenarios where sex is guaranteed (harems, prostitution, escorts) and for the most part it ain't pretty.

No no no. These are real world scenarios where use and abuse of women by men has been guaranteed because the women are objects to be owned. That is not even remotely close to the actual point unless you blindfold yourself, spin around until you're dizzy, and then squint sidelong.

1) I'm an openly celibate virgin who has declared 'sex is evil', why are you asking me what would be healthy in a relationship?

Because you're smart, aware of cultural trends and understanding, and more importantly, you deserve a happy and healthy relationship too, even if for you that means "Sex = No". :)

2) The main question I have is how you would guarantee a positive relationship in the first place. On top of that, not everyone wants physical intimacy. On top of that, not everyone who wants it wants it in the same way. And on top of all of that one positive relationship isn't enough if it's guaranteed any more than one glass of water guarantees you won't die of dehydration.

What qualifies as a healthy sexual encounter and/or "good first time" can be established in broad strokes, actually. It involves agency, consent, humanization, and knowledge. Just make sure the details don't conflict with the abstract.

Your glass of water example is flawed; the corollary would be showig someone where water can be found in the environment they are expected to be in and enabling the skills to acquire it without harm to themselves or the environment. The trick is, you only do it for them once, to avoid a development of dependency.

It's not giving a glass of water. It's teaching which cactus to cut and hollow out for water in their native desert and how to pick one that won't cause irreparable damage.

[HalfTangible]

No no no. These are real world scenarios where use and abuse of women by men has been guaranteed because the women are objects to be owned. That is not even remotely close to the actual point unless you blindfold yourself, spin around until you're dizzy, and then squint sidelong.

What exactly do you think guaranteeing sex would do to the human stock you need to 'guarantee' it? Sure, it won't be placed on only one gender since it'll be given to everybody, but whoever you're screwing is going to be an object you're there to screw and move on with your life.

HT is always that terse in my experience. So that wasn't a signifier. XD

Just most of the time (especially in discussion threads)

Because you're smart, aware of cultural trends and understanding, and more importantly, you deserve a happy and healthy relationship too, even if for you that means "Sex = No". :)

In this order.

No I'm not, and being smart does jack unless you stop and think, which I have not done on this topic

Not much, and not by choice - I immerse myself in current cultural trends largely because I have to

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... . heh... happy, healthy relationships... ... More seriously, I am owed death and nothing else. Everything else needs either to be preserved, or to be worked both hard and miserable for to be worth anything.

Everyone gets a positive sexual experience. Everyone. For an ace, this means their "first time" would be Not Sex. I would imagine someone personable respecting their boundaries would qualify as a positive experience, Yes?

... No, it can't go without sex, because by definition a 'sexual experience' - let alone the 'positive sexual experience' this exercise poses to guarantee - is sexual.

Note that "positive" means descriptive, not prescriptive; the idea that you will be forced to Sex whether or not you like it and just told it was good is not permissible, as it is explicitly against the statement of action in this Socratic exercise.

......... I'm sorry, I can't get past that these relationships would by necessity come out negative at least on occasion (and more likely they'll come out negative as a rule of thumb) by sheer notion of the fact that they're being forced through this 'guarantee' that the whole idea is based on.

Anything solution you try to force, the problem gets worse. You force someone into your basement because you want them to stay, they will want to leave. You force someone into handcuffs so they won't be able to punch, they will choke you with the chain. Ya punch someone in the face and scream 'be my friend'? I don't think I need to tell you how THAT goes.

What qualifies as a healthy sexual encounter and/or "good first time" can be established in broad strokes, actually. It involves agency, consent, humanization, and knowledge. Just make sure the details don't conflict with the abstract.

'Agency' - the feeling that your choices have impact and matter - when the action is guaranteed to happen, a la a cutscene? >.> gonna have to explain that one to me.

Your glass of water example is flawed;

I wanted to keep the metaphors consistent (EDIT: By that i mean I wanted to keep them both about glasses of water)

the corollary would be showig someone where water can be found in the environment they are expected to be in and enabling the skills to acquire it without harm to themselves or the environment. The trick is, you only do it for them once, to avoid a development of dependency.

It's not giving a glass of water. It's teaching which cactus to cut and hollow out for water in their native desert and how to pick one that won't cause irreparable damage.

No, teaching someone to cut a cactus is more analogous to teaching someone how to flirt and/or seduce without being a creeper.

[SiuiS]

This is not a "woman" issue, it's a Darwin Award issue.
I may be a man but I grew up in New York City, and for many years I had to travel through bad parts of Manhattan. I was always conscious of urban survival basics.
If you choose to ignore basic survival, and cry "unfair" when assaulted (for money or for other reasons) when the situation was otherwise avoidable, it's... well it's not a "woman" issue. Just want to point that out.

Yeah. The trouble here, Mlai, is this quickly gets into waters we don't want to tread. Suffice that, while logical, this quickly seems to hit victim blaming.

I'll cite only one thing here to get thoughts going, though. The rules for what constitute harassment are built from a female perspective specifically because without that beig the default, standards and procedures of logic will arbitrarily default to a male perspective. It's apparently been decided by at least one higher court that human bias towards female erasure is an actual problem.

Male on female rape is the most prevalent. Rape and sexual harassment is a gendered crime. And the point is that while stranger rape is the minority women are still constantly blamed for it. Well, women and rape victims in general are very often blamed for it.

And getting assaulted is unfair, getting robbed is unfair. Getting a crime inflicted on you is unfair, djeezes.

Here's what we really mean, Lena.

There is a construction site. It's been there for a long time. There are signs that say "Hard Hat Area" and caution tape. It's obviously an established place that is dangerous.

Someone walks in, crosses the tape, ignores the signs, and gets hurt when a brick falls on their head. This is, demonstratably, their fault.

So why, in a similar situation, is it not the woman's fault that she went somewhere dangerous without protection or preparation, when it would be a man's fault? The answer is to point out that the two scenarios are not analogous and why they are not. But until this is clearly established, any reasonable proof on your side will sound like 'women are special because they're victims and men are not'. You must establish proper context first because otherwise, people can easily dismiss your points.

Rape is not a street crime? It can be but it isn't one by default. And the different ways society and people react to rape victims of different gender definitely means that gender plays a big part in how rape takes place and how people deal with it.

I think this doesn't quite work. Men who are raped have at least an equally tough time as women, right?
Again, I don't think this establishes the proper context. The idea is that women are afraid that there is no such thing as a bad neighborhood or a place that is clearly marked, and so they must always wear hard hard and it gets tedious having to always be on guard. Establishing that as a social inequity would do more in this instance, I think.

Am I making sense or just muddling things?

I am baffled at the course of action this thread must have taken to reach this point but I don't want to read 20+ pages to find out.

vvFacepalm elemental is a thing that must be invented.

Oh no! Please, do. It's a fun romp across several topics!

This is what happens when arguments never end.

I disagree. Several arguments have come and gone. :3

Ha ha, that would be a nice lead-in of how female-avatars are made for men, but are male-avatars made for women.

I think male avatars are for men, honestly. The female market is an after thought to the point that it's noteworthy that something is made for them.

Yay, I can participate again! (no takers on the cosplay thing kind of makes me sad)

Wasn't it covered?

What exactly do you think guaranteeing sex would do to the human stock you need to 'guarantee' it?

Absolutely nothing! Just like I don't think any other willing, consensual adult who engages in making sure their partner has a good time suffers negative consequences because of it.

Your loaded statement uses the words 'human stock'. What, retail employees aren't people? They're cattle to you? Because I can guarantee if there was a socially funded and mandated job that required willingness to engage in adult activities, sensitivity, high emotional intelligence and psychiatric training, these people wouldn't be poor besotted hookers forced into a bad and man-centric position to slake the lusts of the next generation. They would be respected government officials with a thriving private market dynamic.

Kind of like the S&M scene is now, and much much less like street walkers. Using broad strokes, naturally.

No I'm not, and being smart does jack unless you stop and think, which I have not done on this topic

If you haven't thought about the topic why are you so upset that people are saying you responded in a thoughtless manner?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... . heh... happy, healthy relationships... ... More seriously, I am owed death and nothing else. Everything else needs either to be preserved, or to be worked both hard and miserable for to be worth anything.

Sure, I'll buy that. Once you show me your proof.

... No, it can't go without sex, because by definition a 'sexual experience' - let alone the 'positive sexual experience' this exercise poses to guarantee - is sexual.

A sexual eperience is an experience with sex. If your experiences with sex consist of adults who discuss it with you and accept that you do not want any, that's a pretty clear and acceptable use. Much how someone's experience with gaming can be about how they don't want to game and merely know about it from others.

......... I'm sorry, I can't get past that these relationships would by necessity come out negative at least on occasion (and more likely they'll come out negative as a rule of thumb) by sheer notion of the fact that they're being forced through this 'guarantee' that the whole idea is based on.

That's bull, and tautological. "These will be bad because they will be bad" is not a stance, it's a lie. You're still assuming a nonhuman mechanism forcing things and not the actual situation of considerate people doing a job well.

'Agency' - the feeling that your choices have impact and matter - when the action is guaranteed to happen, a la a cutscene? >.> gonna have to explain that one to me.

Asexual sexual experiences, no deadline, engaged workers with skill and empathy, no cookie cutter process, and not diminished by it's own existence. You'll actually have to provide a reasonable narrative for how a choice you make willingly is bad because it was forced on you.

No, teaching someone to cut a cactus is more analogous to teaching someone how to flirt and/or seduce without being a creeper.

This only works in the same manner that 'sex = missionary intercourse'. If the entire purpose of this one success is to establish the habits through observation and integration, then you're clearly wrong in that yor glass of water represents only climax and not anything else, let alone a complete 'experience'.

This suggestion of a single healthy relationship out the gate is literally the application of the fishing proverb. You're arguing it's givig him a fish, I'm saying it's teaching him to fish.

[Aotrs Commander]

Ya punch someone in the face and scream 'be my friend'? I don't think I need to tell you how THAT goes.

That largely depends on whether you are Naruto Uzimaki or not, really...



On game avatars, since it's passingly on original topic, even thought I don't technically qualify (actually, it's debatable whether I'd technically qualify even if it was about men and avatars, not being human at all and only male on the technicality I was before death)...

My chose is usually pretty arbitary. Unlike a lot of people I don't tend to put much thought into who my character is on CRPGs (a cruel - but probably not inaccurate - person might claim I don't in tabletop either...) So avatar choice is fairly arbitary - more so in older games where there was even less choice. I don't play MMORPGs at all (I emphatically do not DO multiplayer - that's what I have tabletop wargaming and RPGs for), so no experience there. I thus don't have probalems with games wherein you're given a character to play (Torment, Witcher, JRPGs). Sometimes my decision is influence by other factors. (I hear that there are dark rumours that in Mass Effect, you can play a male Shepard, but since he's not voiced by Jennifer Hale, why would you?) I confess, I do have a tendancy towards... Not-ugly characters (for instance, the whole "scars/facial tattoos" options always get turned completely off). I won't say "attractive" since I am not really in a position to make a qualified judgement, and I also know exactly what my Oblivion character looked like... In which I first attempted in the prologue dungeon was male and tried to make him all thin and young-looking and a bit anime-y (which looked ridiculous on the generic wide-shouldered body you get lumped with¹) and then female, in which I made efforts to try the big eyes, small mouth type thing and the total lack of expression on the avatar gave me a frightenlying dead-eyed monstrousity...

That said, I managed quite passably with Shepard, by my own standards (though first time, she was a touch too pale in hindsight) and my first DA:O character. (I did make a concerted effort for my third not-paragon run of ME (my second was a "perfect" run prior to ME2) to make him look as evil as possible, as this was m Evil Idiot Shepard run. (My second DA:O run was with an Evil Idiot Elf... I forget even what I did there, probably tried to make him look evil as well.) But really, in these instances, it's usually a case of shooting in the dark, since I have a poor understanding of human aesthetics and thus rely almost soley on exaggerated facial traits.

I have a near-complete lack of understanding of clothes that goes beyond what the steriotypical male has. I just do not "get" clothes, good or bad, and short of a long technical explanation for dummies and reference material to analyse, will never get a grasp on them. So character attire is either completely arbitary or entirely attribute based, with the sole exception I don't like putting face-concealing helmets on any of the characters, PC or NPC. (Largely because you can't see them emote.)



¹I am ephatically NOT a fan of the wide-shouldered grizzled male look, and given a choice, I'll take a... I hestitate to use the word, since it imparts mmore weight to the concept than I give it, but it's illustrative, bishonen-y sort of build instead. Put it this way, Legolas was always my favourite (I for one, had no problems with the Elves stealing the limelight in the Hobbit movie), and despite my professional enemity with the Royal Elven Kingdoms as part of m day job, I've always been very solidly on the Elf side of the Elf/Dwarf divide.

(I would make a crack about you being able to take away my man-card or something, but on the day I stopped being human (and thus being a man) I ritually burned it while laughing manically.)

[Avilan the Grey]

...I am actually thinking of restarting Skyrim as a male, for once.
Nord, too. Maybe. Not sure, we'll see.

[Ibrinar]

Nah, not for me at least. I generally make a doomed attempt at actually roleplaying a character in MMORPGs, and then become bitter and dissatisfied when I realise that everyone else is running about shouting about wanting to sell their loot and what, and I begin to wonder why the game even has character creation built into it in the first place.

Because many people like adjusting the looks of their characters, it's not a RP only thing.
But yeah I don't think I have seen consistent RP in an MMO outside of a private Ultima Online server. Though I haven't actively searched for it. I suppose the same should work with private servers for newer games.

[Kitten Champion]

I disagree. Several arguments have come and gone. :3

Obviously you're wrong. We've yet to have one of you prove yourself the most ruthlessly pedantic and obsessively committed yet, or have the thread locked. The substance of the argument isn't relevant after 10 pages, if you've held on that long.

My point is you can all still fight for another ten years if necessary.

1I am ephatically NOT a fan of the wide-shouldered grizzled male look, and given a choice, I'll take a... I hestitate to use the word, since it imparts mmore weight to the concept than I give it, but it's illustrative, bishonen-y sort of build instead. Put it this way, Legolas was always my favourite (I for one, had no problems with the Elves stealing the limelight in the Hobbit movie), and despite my professional enemity with the Royal Elven Kingdoms as part of m day job, I've always been very solidly on the Elf side of the Elf/Dwarf divide.

I like characters which... well, look like Olympic athletes rather than Olympian gods. I'm more willing to swallow that someone with a lithe physique can do elaborate feats of strength and endurance with their bodies than accept someone with musculature and stature that's too embellished to be believed in the first place. Even if I accept that it's all fantasy to begin with, some part of me is thinking about the anatomy of it and silently gritting its teeth.

[Avilan the Grey]

I like characters which... well, look like Olympic athletes rather than Olympian gods.

Olympic gods looks pretty much exactly like Olympic athletes.

[Jeivar]

Okay, guys, PLEASE take the lengthy arguments to PM or start a new thread. The point of this thread is right there in the title but you're drowning it out.

[Serpentine]

The logical conclusion of the "women need to dress decently and not wander around dangerous areas at night" arguement is "women must cover themselves from head to toe and not leave the house unaccompanied; if they do, they not only deserve to be raped, but it may be delivered to them explicitly as a punishment". This is not hyperbole, this has been a real situation in some times and places. There is no such equivalent reality for "men should watch their wallets in a dodgy part of town".
A woman's bodily autonomy is not equivalent to a man's wallet.
That so-called advice doesn't help prevent rape, it just serves to make women more scared than they need to be in situations where it doesn't help, and to give people a reason to be blamed for their own involuntary violation.
The above is all gendered, because the sexual assault of men is treated very differently by the media and society; the issues are not the same - equally important, but not the same.
If you want to explain further why women should cover their ankles if they don't want to be assaulted, I suggest looking online for any number of guides and discussions that will address every argument you can make, because they've been made and debunked a million times before.

On the actual on-topic current topic, I like my boys pretty and my girls interesting.

[BeerMug Paladin]

Okay, guys, PLEASE take the lengthy arguments to PM or start a new thread. The point of this thread is right there in the title but you're drowning it out.

Your thread a-splode.

Also, this sidetrack sort of arose out of the whole sexism in character designs. If it drifted more back in that direction, it would be significantly more on-topic. But I think most people who wanted a say in that had it already.

Gender swapping one's characters seems like something a lot of people do without much thought. Personally, unless I make a character and have a good idea of what their gender should be, I usually determine their gender at random. How I then play them is influenced in a subtle way.

[Scow2]

And getting assaulted is unfair, getting robbed is unfair. Getting a crime inflicted on you is unfair, djeezes.

Also - Life is unfair.

Yeah. The trouble here, Mlai, is this quickly gets into waters we don't want to tread. Suffice that, while logical, this quickly seems to hit victim blaming.

The problem with Victim Blaming is that... at the end of the day, something bad happened that could have been prevented with the right precautions. It's why Defensive Driving is important - it doesn't matter who's at fault for your car getting rear-ended: At the end of the day, your ride is totaled. (But, that said, actual enforcement of the true liability can get you a new one)

The problem currently facing women is that they're lied to about what are appropriate countermeasures, and get blamed for the crime affecting them even when the actual perpetrator is found (And he gets off free). Going back to the traffic analogy - it sucks that you went through the intersection when you had Right-Of-Way and got hit by the guy blowing the Red Light/Stop Sign without you checking to make sure he'd actually stop - but at least in the traffic issue, he's the one cited with Failure to Yield. (Though defensive drivers are mindful that "You don't have right of way until someone yields it to you")

I'll cite only one thing here to get thoughts going, though. The rules for what constitute harassment are built from a female perspective specifically because without that beig the default, standards and procedures of logic will arbitrarily default to a male perspective. It's apparently been decided by at least one higher court that human bias towards female erasure is an actual problem.



Here's what we really mean, Lena.

There is a construction site. It's been there for a long time. There are signs that say "Hard Hat Area" and caution tape. It's obviously an established place that is dangerous.

Someone walks in, crosses the tape, ignores the signs, and gets hurt when a brick falls on their head. This is, demonstratably, their fault.

So why, in a similar situation, is it not the woman's fault that she went somewhere dangerous without protection or preparation, when it would be a man's fault? The answer is to point out that the two scenarios are not analogous and why they are not. But until this is clearly established, any reasonable proof on your side will sound like 'women are special because they're victims and men are not'. You must establish proper context first because otherwise, people can easily dismiss your points.

But with the case of Rape, it's not "A brick falls on your head" - it's "An ******* construction worker sees you're not wearing a helmet near/on the site, and throws a brick at your head". Men are people. And a bigger problem is that it's NOT merely construction sites where it happens, either. (That said... I think a woman who has gone out of her way to present herself in an attractive manner should still be receptive to/not annoyed by interested approach - but the approachers should be aware that "She's out looking for/trying to impress someone, and that someone is probably not you".)

I think male avatars are for men, honestly. The female market is an after thought to the point that it's noteworthy that something is made for them.



Wasn't it covered?

Absolutely nothing! Just like I don't think any other willing, consensual adult who engages in making sure their partner has a good time suffers negative consequences because of it.

Your loaded statement uses the words 'human stock'. What, retail employees aren't people? They're cattle to you? Because I can guarantee if there was a socially funded and mandated job that required willingness to engage in adult activities, sensitivity, high emotional intelligence and psychiatric training, these people wouldn't be poor besotted hookers forced into a bad and man-centric position to slake the lusts of the next generation. They would be respected government officials with a thriving private market dynamic.

Kind of like the S&M scene is now, and much much less like street walkers. Using broad strokes, naturally.

As someone who just read a Stripper FAQ and has experience in the retail and food industry... Once you bring employment and money into the equation it generally does start dehumanizing people. Rather than employing women to make sure men have fun (There are lots of women who are miffed about not having pleasant experiences with males as well), it would probably be better to... well, we'll have to completely overhaul the entire culture, and it sounds more like a job for Matchmakers. Right now, the dating scene is "Opt in", and can be extremely difficult to find an opening. Of course, wherever you have humans, you have spots for abuse...












Anyway... back to my heavily-modded Skyrim! Actually... I have PBPs around here I should probably update...

[HalfTangible]

Fine Jeivar, moving to PM

[Hiro Protagonest]

In a pathetic attempt to get back on thread topic...

One thing I've heard from guys who play female characters in MMOs is that the guy wants something nice to look at while grinding monsters for hours on end. Is this the case for any females in the audience?

That's pretty much the reason for me. But I also like to make them idealized in general. Sexy, tough, with armor that's form-fitting but heroic-looking. I'll have to re-download Neverwinter through Steam and take a screenshot of my fighter when I get home.

But the limited customization in Neverwinter is why I don't play guys in that. The fattest human man you can make still has strong muscle definition, he's just built like a bear. The skinniest guy you can make is still strong-jawed. No pot-bellied old men who wield powerful magic. No pretty-boys that can wear full combat armor and heft a greatsword as tall as themselves. If I'm constricted to certain appearances, I'd rather appear as a super sexy heroic girl than a super muscular heroic guy.

[Lamech]

The logical conclusion of the "women need to dress decently and not wander around dangerous areas at night" arguement is "women must cover themselves from head to toe and not leave the house unaccompanied; if they do, they not only deserve to be raped, but it may be delivered to them explicitly as a punishment".

Erm... no it isn't. Some people might take it to that conclusion, but its not the logical conclusion.

There is no such equivalent reality for "men should watch their wallets in a dodgy part of town".
A woman's bodily autonomy is not equivalent to a man's wallet.

Its certainly not as prevalent, but a mugging is not stealing a wallet. That's a pick pocket. If is often violent and violates bodily anatomy. I didn't see anyone talking about pickpockets.

The common "advice" to prevent rape is bad for a lot of reasons.
1) Its not good. Attack on a dark street is not a common form of rape.
2) Its often used as a blamey way. If something bad happens its not good to point out everything they did wrong as your response.
3) Its often stereotyping. Women as victims, men as attackers. More generally it feeds into the women as helpless and men as agents paradigm. And it takes focus away from all the other dangers. Getting drunk is a lot more likely to get you killed in a accident of some flavour than being attacked.
4) It often mis-assigns responsibility. I should be able to tell the guy pointing a gun at me to go to hell. When he shoots me, its his fault.

On topic: I played WW yesterday. I did it because he is a hilarious top lane. People have this hilarious tendency to forget about his massive lifestealing powers.