Is Lolth Smarter Then She Seems?

[Arbane]

Next game I run, I will treat the Drow as Homestuck trolls, without the horns.

You have to admit, it explains a gr8 deal!

[Yael]

No, your signature would be too long.

Ouch, my kokoro!

Then I'll do as Sith_Happens

[Saved for future sigging]

May I do as you ?

In-topic though, Lolth is I think the most babysitter deity of all D&D for no reason (along Kurthulmak, and Ilsensine, but those two were exceptions as I was told). Drow community is all about diplomatic murder and their relations with the outside are vague, almost non-existant.

[Agrippa]

How is this "headcanon?" Survival of the fittest is the whole driving force behind every evil society. It's not just Lolth - Grummsh and Yeenoghu are doing the same thing.

About the only ones you can say aren't chronic backstabbers are kobolds, but using Tucker tactics they can take down much higher-CR threats and gain group XP that way.

Of course kobolds don't get down to this much backstabbery. They're too Lawful for that, they act for the greater good of their clan and kobold kind as a whole, for a day where they reign supreme as the master race. A master race of yappy little lizard/dogmen fascists, but as the master race none this less.

[SiuiS]

How is this "headcanon?" Survival of the fittest is the whole driving force behind every evil society. It's not just Lolth - Grummsh and Yeenoghu are doing the same thing.

About the only ones you can say aren't chronic backstabbers are kobolds, but using Tucker tactics they can take down much higher-CR threats and gain group XP that way.

No, the revelation isn't that drow backstab each other all the time. It's that their society both has a purpose, and actually succeeds at it. Given the components are "angry lesbians", "misanthropy as a legal system", and "it's cool to execute people who step on spiders", that's amazing. Drow are the social Darwin version of a million monkeys at typewriters. It's a holy smokes, they've sort of succeeded?! Thing.

I do believe it's been mentioned in different sources that the Drow are much more productive than their surface-cousins when it comes to offsprings. I recall at least the Ecology of the Drow in Dragon Magazine mentioning such, and that rivalry and fighting between siblings were encouraged by the mothers.

One line I really remember from that ecology-article was how Drow often concieved twins or triplets, but even in the womb they were fighting and that the mother could feel when one child killed the other one in the womb and it was supposedly an "exquisite feeling" for the Drow mother to feel one child grow stronger from their victory.

It also works well with a minor character in one of the Forgotten Realms novels that had a twin sister, and it was noted that they carried on their dispute from the womb.

Still, really like the OP's thoughts and it certainly agrees with how I have often viewed the Drow and Lolth myself.

My, that's downright sickening.

Definitely. Her stated Int scores are much higher than her apparent behavior would indicate of her intellect.

She's a demon. She may be a goddess now, but she was designed as an upstart demon. She has that same insanity thing going.

There is a body of Drow Commoners who are supposed to be a bit more insulated from the schemes of the nobles, except when they're being used as tools or sacrificed as cannon fodder instead of slaves as a ruse. And when Drow Nobles decide to make like that tradition of Spartans murdering a Helot without getting caught as part of a rite of passage.

Just what they're actually doing down there in their dank pits, I can never recall.

Fascinating. Where could one read about this?

EDIT: Drow also first appeared in AD&D in 1977, being mentioned as a "legend" under the entry for Elf in the Monster Manual. They didn't actually appear truly until 1978 in a series of modules. (For bonus, they were first made playable in 1985's Unearthed Arcana.

(huh, that was an interesting Google search)

Thanks for that, I was going to do the same research soon. Every drow argument that arises, I worry that "legend" in the 1977 monster manual wasn't the start as I thought it was.

I've played under a GM who fixes the "where do all the drow come from?" problem by declaring that every spider killed in the Underdark rises as a drow in 1d6 days. And yes, drow count as spiders for the purposes of this rule. The exception are spiders who are eaten, which is a nod to the mind-blowingly stupid proclamation in the 2e Drow of the Underdark book that "drow sometimes resort to cannibalism to keep their numbers down." (Yes, that's really in there.)

I love that. It fits the nature theme of elves perfectly.

I've had a setting that had elves, as a race, emerge spontaneously from what is functionally incarnum pooling in natural spots of the world. So a full grown adult elf may stand up and begin to operate on instinct from the middle of a verdant field. Entire grey elf cities form when over the course of a few weeks elves crawl out of spontaneously generated patches in the crags of mountains and brushland.

Making standard elves represent the majestic side of nature, making "high" elves or Eladrin represent the magical side of nature, and making drow represent the base and dark side of nature – caves and slime and maggots and spiders and centipedes – fits.

In-topic though, Lolth is I think the most babysitter deity of all D&D for no reason (along Kurthulmak, and Ilsensine, but those two were exceptions as I was told). Drow community is all about diplomatic murder and their relations with the outside are vague, almost non-existant.

She's mono focused because that's all she has. If the drow ever died she wouldn't really have a portfolio anymore. She's an ADHD riddled angry jilted immortal still riding the fury of her jealousy and with nothing to do except toy with her slight, dark skinned spider people.

[jedipotter]

Doubtful. See: friendship slaves and magic.

A lot of slaves just do the ''dirty work''. Weaving a spider silk dress is work for an expert drow, not a kobold commoner.

And remember it's not like every drow has a dozen personal slaves. Slaves are for nobles and the wealthy.

Considering they are, canonically, literally evil even in the womb, this is a "no."

Sure they are all evil, but that does not make them smart. There are tons of Stupid Evil and Dumb Evil drow. Being evil is a skill like anything else.

You only need look at any thread about evil characters to see the types of things players do when they are ''trying'' to be evil for some great examples.

And it's also someone alive, who can then use and kill you.

It's like the Mob thing. Ever watch The Sopranos or Boardwalk Empire? The Drow Szen is a connected ''made drow''. So if you touch him, his whole family/group will be out to kill you.

And everyone is someone to someone. So say a player wants to be the ''Coolz Evil Drow who kills! kills! kills!''. Well it won't be long before someone notices and takes action. Not as they ''care'' about the death, but they might have other reasons.

And if there is a ''coolz killz drow'' person...they are not likely to get any support or even be able to do things like go shopping. They might survive on the edge of the society....but as soon as they walk down main street hacking away at everything that moves....they won't be around long.

And sure, if you leave an enemy alive they ''might try to kill you someday''.....just like ''every other drow in the city''....so there is not much of a change there.....

[Bullet06320]

because chaotic?
chaos doesn't always make sense, but sumhow it works in this case

[Melcar]

Consider the drow. Their society, at first glance, makes no sense. They're constantly assassinating each other, plotting against each other, scheming, undermining, all against each other. They spend more time, energy, and blood fighting each other then they do fighting the Hated Surfacers. It's only through authorial fiat they haven't gone extinct. What gives?

Well, how about this: in 3E, as a general thing, few high-level characters beat many low-level characters hands-down. This is obviously true with casters, but it's mostly true even with mundanes: a single 20th-level skillmonkey is much more useful, in most circumstances, then 200 rogue-1's.

Now consider drow society in that light. They're constantly fighting each other. Relatively few, one would presume, survive to see middle age... But the ones who do will have picked up the experience of killing off the ones who don't.

Drow society is a ruthless machine for turning 200 rogue-1's into one rogue-20. It's true that 200 rogue-1's don't actually give you enough XP to reach 20th level, but we can assume most conflicts, even among the drow, are not resolved through murder, and merely "defeating" an enemy still gives you XP for him. By creating a society riven with internecine conflict, Lolth has built a factory for epic-level characters.

Her one mistake was picking an LA +2 race. Presumably this is why the Drow have not yet conquered the world.

Thoughts? Of course, the real explanation is that the drow are Designated Villains and that's that, but I thought it was an amusing idea.

So you suggest, that by having such a hard world to grow up in, only te very best or very strongest survives and thus reach epic level. Well its an interesting thought, is that is indeed what you mean.

[Inevitability]

May I sig this?

Of course you may.

[Psyren]

Of course kobolds don't get down to this much backstabbery. They're too Lawful for that, they act for the greater good of their clan and kobold kind as a whole, for a day where they reign supreme as the master race. A master race of yappy little lizard/dogmen fascists, but as the master race none this less.

Lawful tendencies don't mean "no backstabbing." See also Duergar, Hobgoblins. They just do it within the bounds set by their society - e.g. a rival hobgoblin might use treachery to ensure he gets a promotion or military commendation that you deserved more.

Kobolds function more like a giant family - there is little in the way of hierarchy, whether military or aristocratic. They are meritocratic, but without the rigidity of the hobgoblins.

No, the revelation isn't that drow backstab each other all the time. It's that their society both has a purpose, and actually succeeds at it. Given the components are "angry lesbians", "misanthropy as a legal system", and "it's cool to execute people who step on spiders", that's amazing. Drow are the social Darwin version of a million monkeys at typewriters. It's a holy smokes, they've sort of succeeded?! Thing.

I can clearly see it's a revelation to some folks but there are still others of us going "wait, people are really floored by this? Why shouldn't a Darwinist society make sense?"

Also, the three things you've listed in quotes are hardly societal dealbreakers - there have been successful civilizations with far weirder mores, so they're not indicative of some impossible construct.

[SiuiS]

I can clearly see it's a revelation to some folks but there are still others of us going "wait, people are really floored by this? Why shouldn't a Darwinist society make sense?"

Also, the three things you've listed in quotes are hardly societal dealbreakers - there have been successful civilizations with far weirder mores, so they're not indicative of some impossible construct.

Not deal breakers, but if you are told there's a society run by women because their goddess has jealousy issues and it's legal to kill men if they step on bugs, but then turn around and say "it's a successful and functional Darwinist society" then people are going to experience whiplash.

[ZamielVanWeber]

It is probably successful, in no small part, because of the nature of the Underdark. The drow are still sitting underneath much more dangerous adversaries, such as Mind Flayers and Aboleths. The drow end up purging their weak before they can become food/thralls for their more dangerous enemies. Their own paranoia at becoming food/slaves/both ensures enough cohesion to keep their society together (and if they ever get lax, Lolth is there to remind them).

[Psyren]

Not deal breakers, but if you are told there's a society run by women because their goddess has jealousy issues and it's legal to kill men if they step on bugs, but then turn around and say "it's a successful and functional Darwinist society" then people are going to experience whiplash.

Again, this is only surprising if you haven't done the research. DotU:

"Much like the spiders they revere, drow females also hold power due to biological reasons. In many spider species, the females are far larger and stronger, and males often do not survive the mating process.
"

And while we're on the subject, this quote should answer Fitz's question:

"PREGNANCY, BIRTH, AND CHILDHOOD

The drow are notably more fertile than are their surface-dwelling cousins. They become pregnant more easily and have a slightly shorter gestation period.
...
Drow children are no less temperamental than drow adults, and are in fact encouraged to resolve their difficulties through violence. If a child is not strong enough to survive and thrive in this environment, well, better that it not live to an equally violent adulthood. Perhaps spurred on by these hostile circumstances, drow children develop much faster than other elves — almost as swiftly as humans, in fact — often beginning schooling as early as age eight or ten."

Basically, the only fallacy being commited here is assuming they are biologically identical to elves except shorter and darker. But Lolth infused them with more than merely a thematic connection to spiders. Their society makes more sense if you take that knowledge into account.

[atemu1234]

Also, one nitpick- wasn't she Corellon's mistress or something, before betraying him and getting sent away? I don't think she was originally a demon.

[SiuiS]

Psyren, "spiders are fertile and female spiders are bigger and lolth made drow similar over time" does not in any way make their society a successful model. Nor does drow children maturing sooner or being tiny murderers.

The facts and research have nothing to do with te emergent properties that are surprising people. The benchmark for "doing research" is also ridiculously high considering without a minor detail in a minor book, something the game had had for the last thirty years doesn't make a lick of sense.

Also, one nitpick- wasn't she Corellon's mistress or something, before betraying him and getting sent away? I don't think she was originally a demon.

1e: Lloth was demon queen of spiders.
2e: expanded to include stuff with miska the wolf spider, her consort. Became usurper goddess, demon queen of spiders who gained divinity by seducing the drow.
3e: not much clear on her origins. I think they default to the 2e model. Spelling officially 100% "Lolth" and not "Lloth".
4e: All deities get reinvented. Lolth was sister to Sehanine, something something love triangle.

[Faily]

1e: Lloth was demon queen of spiders.
2e: expanded to include stuff with miska the wolf spider, her consort. Became usurper goddess, demon queen of spiders who gained divinity by seducing the drow.
3e: not much clear on her origins. I think they default to the 2e model. Spelling officially 100% "Lolth" and not "Lloth".
4e: All deities get reinvented. Lolth was sister to Sehanine, something something love triangle.

I'm not very good with Greyhawk, but in Forgotten Realms, Lolth was once known as Araushnee to the Seldarine and she was a lover of Corellon Larethian. Her favored elves were the drow (I forgot what they were called then). Then some big civil war ensued amongst the elven races, mostly due to Araushnee egging on the drow to seek power over the other elves. Lolth is the mother of Vhaerun and Eilistraee, iirc, and I do seem to recall that Corellon is their father, not sure if he is Vhaerun's father though.
Araushnee was cast out of the Seldarine, along with her son Vhaerun, and the drow were banished from the surface world by Corellon. Araushnee then became Lolth we all know and love/fear/hate today.

There's so much stuff written about this across the various books, it's hard to remember it all.

[Psyren]

Psyren, "spiders are fertile and female spiders are bigger and lolth made drow similar over time" does not in any way make their society a successful model. Nor does drow children maturing sooner or being tiny murderers.

The facts and research have nothing to do with te emergent properties that are surprising people. The benchmark for "doing research" is also ridiculously high considering without a minor detail in a minor book, something the game had had for the last thirty years doesn't make a lick of sense.

It's not a large leap to conclude that (a) they must be more fertile than elves given all the backstabbing going on, and (b) that Lolth gave their females a biological leg up to jumpstart the societal one. From there Darwinism takes over. Rather, all this jaw-dropping incredulity seems to stem from a desire to believe that the designers were wrong about their own world first and then come up with ways they might be right after all, rather than assume they got their own creation right from the start and think of the conditions that would need to be extant to support that.

Also, given that this so-called "minor book" is the definitive source on Drow in the game, you would think anyone interested in their society might have checked it, just saying

[Venger]

Also, one nitpick- wasn't she Corellon's mistress or something, before betraying him and getting sent away? I don't think she was originally a demon.

no, she was his actual partner for a good long time.

like all stories involving corellon or any of the other Good gods, it's pretty fishy, since she just sort of becomes ambitious (and thus evil) and screws him over for essentially no reason. like many of the myths in D&D, there's definitely some "victors write the history books" type stuff going on.

probably one of the best examples of this was the story of Leraje.

after a battle, lolth complimented leraje's archery skills. correlon, butthurt that people were paying attention to someone who wasn't him, challenged her to an archery contest and named the target as her heart, figuring she wouldn't do it and that would teach her her place. she didn't back down and when he fired his arrow, she fired hers, it ricocheted and struck first. correlon turned her into a vestige for being better than he was.

all the stories involving correlon are pretty much like this. I've always rooted for lolth.

[Rubik]

no, she was his actual partner for a good long time.

like all stories involving corellon or any of the other Good gods, it's pretty fishy, since she just sort of becomes ambitious (and thus evil) and screws him over for essentially no reason. like many of the myths in D&D, there's definitely some "victors write the history books" type stuff going on.

probably one of the best examples of this was the story of Leraje.

after a battle, lolth complimented leraje's archery skills. correlon, butthurt that people were paying attention to someone who wasn't him, challenged her to an archery contest and named the target as her heart, figuring she wouldn't do it and that would teach her her place. she didn't back down and when he fired his arrow, she fired hers, it ricocheted and struck first. correlon turned her into a vestige for being better than he was.

all the stories involving correlon are pretty much like this. I've always rooted for lolth.

Sounds like par for the course as far as any god I've read about goes.

Except Okami Amaterasu, of course. Ammy's awesome.

[Venger]

Sounds like par for the course as far as any god I've read about goes.

Except Okami Amaterasu, of course. Ammy's awesome.

Right, and I agree with that. Athena did a very similar thing to Ariadne.

The difference is, we're supposed to understand that Athena is just being a brat, whereas we're supposed to give Corellon a pass Because of Reasons.

[SiuiS]

I'm not very good with Greyhawk, but in Forgotten Realms, Lolth was once known as Araushnee to the Seldarine and she was a lover of Corellon Larethian. Her favored elves were the drow (I forgot what they were called then). Then some big civil war ensued amongst the elven races, mostly due to Araushnee egging on the drow to seek power over the other elves. Lolth is the mother of Vhaerun and Eilistraee, iirc, and I do seem to recall that Corellon is their father, not sure if he is Vhaerun's father though.
Araushnee was cast out of the Seldarine, along with her son Vhaerun, and the drow were banished from the surface world by Corellon. Araushnee then became Lolth we all know and love/fear/hate today.

There's so much stuff written about this across the various books, it's hard to remember it all.

It depends on which source takes precedence, aye. In some, drow were always dark. In others, that's a symptom of their curse. In still more, it's a result of living underground with all the Phaezress radiation or whatever. In some she was a demon, in others a goddess, in others a sister to the prime goddess rather than equal.

They're probably all correct. Deific level shifts would be sufficient to retcon time and reality, leaving only traces of the old lore.

[QUOTE=Psyren;18474881]It's not a large leap to conclude that (a) they must be more fertile than elves given all the backstabbing going on, and (b) that Lolth gave their females a biological leg up to jumpstart the societal one.[/wuote]

It is a leap to jump from fertile amazon elves underground who murder each other constantly have a thriving and spreading society that functions well on a social level. Because constant murder and brutality do not equate functioning society, not even with social Darwinism in play. Because murder doesn't select for survivable traits.

Also, given that this so-called "minor book" is the definitive source on Drow in the game, you would think anyone interested in their society might have checked it, just saying

You say that, but pathfinder, 2e, 1e, 4e and ebberon and Ravenloft don't agree with you. It's one book on the subject amongst many. It is not definitive on that subject. Hel, the old planescape stuff have more definitive information on the goddess than this one does. Or I'm barmy, I'll accept whichever. It hasn't been a good day for remembering attributions.

[Snowbluff]

Pathfinder isn't really canonical. That's like the cover artist for the Harry Potter series saying what color Harry's glasses are. Lolth is the IP of WotC, after all.

Personally, what work I would consider definitive would be the one that establishes that viewpoint that is held most consistently when going forward.

[Seclora]

Right, and I agree with that. Athena did a very similar thing to Ariadne.

The difference is, we're supposed to understand that Athena is just being a brat, whereas we're supposed to give Corellon a pass Because of Reasons.

My understanding is that Athena punishes Arachne for the content of her art, not for being better than Athena. It's all well and good to be better than anyone else at your craft; but using it to make fun of the gods is unacceptable.

[atemu1234]

Pathfinder isn't really canonical. That's like the cover artist for the Harry Potter series saying what color Harry's glasses are. Lolth is the IP of WotC, after all.

Personally, what work I would consider definitive would be the one that establishes that viewpoint that is held most consistently when going forward.

Not to mention that she isn't even in pathfinder .

Also, the most recent source is always considered the most reliable in terms of being canon, and since each edition operates in a slightly different world, and this is 3e/3.5...

[Venger]

My understanding is that Athena punishes Arachne for the content of her art, not for being better than Athena. It's all well and good to be better than anyone else at your craft; but using it to make fun of the gods is unacceptable.

I have only ever heard it as her punishing Arachne for being better at sewing than Athena. But of course many versions exist.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I have only ever heard it as her punishing Arachne for being better at sewing than Athena. But of course many versions exist.

I've read it that Arachne weaved a picture insulting Zeus and other gods, and was of equal skill.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Many versions exist, but I believe that Hiro's is the most common. The story was meant to warn mortals not to get uppity just because they new about some of the more sordid details of the gods' lives.

[SiuiS]

and this is 3e/3.5...

Oh, my. I actually thought this was general Roleplaying, I'm sorry. I've been discussing in bad faith. Apologies Psyren.

[Killer Angel]

Having a society constantly on the brink of extinction is pretty stupid

From Lolth PoV, is not stupid, is chaotic. She simply doesn't care at all about those silly drows. She doesn't even care for herself.
In The War of the Spider Queen, Lolth has gone silent and is no longer affording spells to her priestesses

Spoiler: undefined

Show

She was "evolving" into something unknown, a process with a final result mysterious even to Lolth, and she did it just because chaos is movement

.
Lolth is intelligent, but Chaos don't fit well with long term planning.

[Necroticplague]

From Lolth PoV, is not stupid, is chaotic. She simply doesn't care at all about those silly drows. She doesn't even care for herself.

Except she does care about the drow. When their numbers get to low, she personally tells them to cut back on the murders until their population can support it again. Actually, the fact SR has to do this is an indicator her idea for a heavy Darwinist society is kinda failing, since success would have the society become self suffecient.

[Zaq]

Sounds like par for the course as far as any god I've read about goes.

Except Okami Amaterasu, of course. Ammy's awesome.

Have you ever actually read the Kojiki? There's plenty of weird crap in there.