EMPIRE! CWBG XIII: F5: Document Spirits F10: Summon Balepig, Keeper of Oaths

[BladeofObliviom]

Got bored waiting for an EoT in a Total War game I'm in, and decided to browse around, and found the empire! tag, and checked it out. I have an idea for a nation, but first I need to stop being lazy and see if there's an open non-polar region, though I might play polar just because I want to play :P

I dunno if there are many non-polar, non-aquatic, non-underground regions left, unfortunately. Well, there's 165, but then you don't really have room to expand and also are being actively invaded right now.

If you're interested in picking up an NPC (which may entail a lot of room for reinterpretation depending on the NPC and you may get lucky and find something close to your intention anyway), that's also an option.

[Soommor]

Hey Durmatagno, I look forward to playing with you in the future, but don't be afraid to pick a Polar Region, (although I'm pretty sure there are a few non-polar areas left).

Soommor.

[SamBurke]

I dunno if there are many non-polar, non-aquatic, non-underground regions left, unfortunately. Well, there's 165, but then you don't really have room to expand and also are being actively invaded right now.

If you're interested in picking up an NPC (which may entail a lot of room for reinterpretation depending on the NPC and you may get lucky and find something close to your intention anyway), that's also an option.

Picking up an NPC is the best place to start, IMO, but there may be some left, yeah.

[Durmatagno]

Picking up an NPC is the best place to start, IMO, but there may be some left, yeah.

Only issue is I *know* none of the NPCs will fit what I want to do, maybe a little in some areas, but I have a new race, a (future) religion, culture, and government that I highly doubt any of the others would represent.

[SamBurke]

Only issue is I *know* none of the NPCs will fit what I want to do, maybe a little in some areas, but I have a new race, a (future) religion, culture, and government that I highly doubt any of the others would represent.

There's a high chance that no, they won't. But for the sake of completeness, care to give a shot?

[Durmatagno]

There's a high chance that no, they won't. But for the sake of completeness, care to give a shot?

I think I just want to create a new nation so I can play what I want, already have a flag, heraldry, and more.

[SamBurke]

I think I just want to create a new nation so I can play what I want, already have a flag, heraldry, and more.

Fair that. *insert standard 'they already have great backstories and heraldry' spiel* There's a lot less space that way, but it's not impossible. Quinton'd be the man to talk to for any non-revealed areas.

[Philote]

Quoted for visibility.

This is the most updated version of the tech I wish to get approved this round.

Spoiler: Transformative Material

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Transformative Material– Resources: Garb / Metal

a. Research into the qualities of the mythical fabric Garb has revealed ways to apply the substance's unique theme changing properties to other materials. It has been discovered that Garb does not simply change in ways related to shape or color, but possesses the ability shift the basic thoughts and themes surrounding around it to different styles. When Garbs properties are transferred to other materials, with the Garb retained as a controlling interface, the other materials gain the same variable properties.

b. Empires with this technology can craft fortifications more efficiently as several defensive technologies can be constructed into the same structure. An empire can thus use two fortification technologies at the same time within the fortification tech slot.

c. Required Resource Type: [Garb] + [Metal Resource]

Unrelated, but could someone explain to me the process of assassination and forcing another empire to change their stats?

New post with Near-Final attempt at explanation.

Spoiler: Disclaimer

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Empire exists in three states. The mechanics, the playstyles, and the fluff.

The mechanics are the specific rules of the game. What is forbidden and what is allowed.

The playstyle is the plans created using the mechanics. The actions taken and the stats obtained.

The fluff is the interpretation of this plan. The rulers, resources, and outcomes.

This post is not about mechanics. The rules shall remain the same. Empires shall transition between states just as they always have. This post is not about playstyles. The same choices shall be made, stats will be acquired at the same rate, Stat 5 and Stat 10 will not occur more of less often than before.

This post is about fluff, the interpretation of the combination of the mechanics and playstyle.

It should be noted that the rules as currently written may contain descriptions that describe any of the three states above, sometimes addressing multiple states at once. The “Changing Rulers” section in the rules addresses the mechanical change of state of an empire and the fluff change of state of a ruling family for example.

Spoiler: The Problem

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The problem that has been observed is that the mechanical restrictions of the rules have inadvertently been restricting the possible fluff definitions that players are allowed to take. Not in broken ways such as nation rapidly performing miracles, but in a simple way such as forbidding empires from being run certain ways.

As it is currently:

I can have a new religious leader take over an empire every five years and install a new religion, repeated indefinitely.

But I can not have a leader create a technology, refocus his nation, and pursue a new technology.

I can have an immortal ruler.

But I can not, in the entire lifespan of that ruler, have them perform two miracles no matter how religious they become.

Clearly the rules are not perfect and in the past this seems to have been hand waved with common sense. However, I have a solution that will free up possibilities without sacrificing the mechanical integrity of the game.

For empires pursuing not only curiosity technologies, but faith miracles, this will make the fluff handling of the game much more convenient, not to mention it opening up many other styles of rulership.

Spoiler: The Solution

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Stats simply need to be decoupled from rulers and transferred to empires. I realize that the terminology for this will trigger some backlash but I ask that everyone hear me out and provide feedback on how things can be improved or why this style would be harmful to the game. Please additionally check below for how I address assassinations.

I do not view this as a mechanics changes for several reasons. As written currently, the description of a state of change of an empire in the rules contains a description of both the mechanical and fluff effect of the rule. My secondary reasoning being that the “king” fluff has already been circumvented with different styles and that my solution will only establish this as allowable.

When stats are decoupled from rulers, both playstyle and fluff is freed up to act more inline with the player’s wishes.

The direction of an empire can be chosen more freely when it is not necessary to remove a fluff character for the sake of obtaining new actions. The introduction of a new story character can be done without losing progress on a player’s next miracle. (This is excluding assassinations. See below).

Fluff is freed up as players can invent new creative forms of government. Changes in an empire can be marked by a major new focus in the empire’s direction. Two or more kings in a line can work together to bring about a great miracle [The fluff for three kings existing within the span of one stat set until Faith 10 is achieved]. One king can direct his creative mind to multiple technologies [The fluff for one king within the span of two stat sets creating two Curiosity 10 technologies].

Spoiler: Examples

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1. The Caramel Kingdom is marked by several great eras as Esumans direct their thoughts towards certain goals. “The Age of Dreams” ends with the creation of the Mind Conference technology, marking a change in the empire and resulting in new stats and actions.

2. The Caramel Kingdom is ruled by a king with a council of Royal Visionaries. The king may exist between multiple councils, but the changing of so many great minds with the exchange of a council marks a new period for the empire resulting in new stats and actions.

3. The Caramel Kingdom is in possession of the artifact “The Garb Dreamscape” which is consulted for great revelations during pivotal points in the empire’s history. When new mysterious are revealed from the depths of the artifact, the entire empire is shaken and changed, resulting in new stats and actions.

4. The Caramel Kingdom is under guidance by a “Wise Elephant”. This elephant may live many years, retaining multiple 10s in stats over a long period and across multiple rulers. The elephant is slow however and its revelations for new technologies may be as slow as its life is long. When a new “Wise Elephant” is born, the empire is weakened and its stats reset as it must adjust its lifestyle to this new guide.

5. The Caramel Kingdom simply has a wise king. When this king passes the throne to his heir, the empire is changed and new stats and actions are obtained.

Spoiler: Assassinations

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The main objection, and the only objection that I have been able to understand so far, is the idea that “Stats must be tied to a physical ruler”. I think this can be expanded upon and better understood to be “The stats of an empire must be able to be interacted with within the world.”

The purpose of stats being tied to leaders is so that another player may attempt to counteract another player’s progress through assassinating their ruler and resetting their stats and actions. If there is another instance of it being important for the stats to be tied to one specific ruler, then I am not aware of it since currently stats can already be represented in a council or stats used for non-ruler characters.

My proposed solution is to simply have “Assassinations” be as fluff open as my proposed openness for the running of an empire. In this case an “Assassination” could be multiple things and would likely be fluffed in the moment for whatever made the most sense. The same opposed stat checks would be made as would be made currently.

“Assassinations” could be interpreted as the execution of a council, the destabilization of a religion receiving guidance from an authority, the theft of the empire’s source of knowledge, or the literal assassination of its king.

Just as with currently, proper fluff actions could be taken to make “Assassinations” less likely. If the Caramel Kingdom’s king was made immortal and kept locked within a room dug below the kingdom, it would likely take greater fluff justification to create the “Assassination” action.

Spoiler: TL/DR

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I think the Empire! Roleplay system would benefit a lot from the simple change of “When changing rulers” to “When your empire changes states” with the description of an heir taking over for a king being kept as the default but the possibility for personal styles being allowed.

[Aedilred]

Hello Durmatagno.

I can understand wanting to create your own region rather than pick up a NPC. Unfortunately, as the others indicate, completely blank standard regions are thin on the ground these days. I think 149 and 165 are both technically still empty but both are in the final stages of being occupied and it's a difficult part of the world to start, as Blade suggests. 156 and 157 (Darsia and Mapuílli) are also unclaimed but have a history and some existing fluff (which also makes them a difficult part of the world to start in). All the other discovered regions on the map are, I think, underground, underwater or polar. There is, it seems, at least one undiscovered standard region remaining, which Quinton could conceivably make available; check with him about that.

Polar and underground regions currently known but unoccupied are:
P7
P11 - 15 (not visible, but existence extrapolated)
76B
146B
107B
I'm not sure about polar regions.

Quinton is a bit busy at the moment as his previous post in this thread indicates so it might take him a few days to get back to you if you want to discuss starting "off the map" with him.

[Durmatagno]

Hello Durmatagno.

I can understand wanting to create your own region rather than pick up a NPC. Unfortunately, as the others indicate, completely blank standard regions are thin on the ground these days. I think 149 and 165 are both technically still empty but both are in the final stages of being occupied and it's a difficult part of the world to start, as Blade suggests. 156 and 157 (Darsia and Mapuílli) are also unclaimed but have a history and some existing fluff (which also makes them a difficult part of the world to start in). All the other discovered regions on the map are, I think, underground, underwater or polar. There is, it seems, at least one undiscovered standard region remaining, which Quinton could conceivably make available; check with him about that.

Polar and underground regions currently known but unoccupied are:
P7
P11 - 15 (not visible, but existence extrapolated)
76B
146B
107B
I'm not sure about polar regions.

Quinton is a bit busy at the moment as his previous post in this thread indicates so it might take him a few days to get back to you if you want to discuss starting "off the map" with him.

I'm patient, I can wait.

[Aedilred]

Quoted for visibility.

If my reading of the situation is correct, the existing state of affairs is unlikely to be changed, unless the idea suddenly becomes a lot more popular than it seems to have been so far.

Since it might be a few days before Quinton gets a chance to reply and I don't want you to feel ignored, my own opinion only on some of the issues you raise:

Spoiler: Mechanics v Fluff

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I think the reason people have been talking mostly about the mechanical side of things is because it is fundamentally a mechanical issue even if presented in fluff terms. There is nothing to stop you introducing a fluff-only tech if you think it's appropriate (aside from the usual arguments about and restrictions on how advanced such technologies should be). Raaneka had a number of "technologies" which have no mechanical effect, and Niskovia has quietly shown some off at events like the Tech Fair. There was and is no meaningful restriction on doing stuff like that. If you want to present your country as a centre of innovation in the RP, just do it. It would probably be appropriate to maintain a high Curiosity score and to introduce some crunch technologies from time to time but it does not need to be a handicap on presenting your country a certain way.

How the suggestion really comes across, with that in mind, is wanting to get more special actions out of a given ruler, which is all about mechanics and not really to do with fluff at all. After all, wanting to get more special actions is pretty much the only reason you'd otherwise want to refresh a ruler's stats without changing ruler except in exceptional circumstances (if Sam wanted to re-roll Wesley's stats to reflect his conditioning and rehabilitation and the consequent changes to his pre-war preferences and personality, for instance, that would likely be better received than Dark wanting to refresh Senusret's solely so that he can use another Cur/Faith10).

This may be an issue of presentation. Perhaps had your initial idea been presented more as "I want to do xyz in the fluff; how can I make this work ruleswise" people might have been more positive; how it came across however was "I want to get more special actions out of my rulers; please change the rules and we can handwave a fluff justification".

Spoiler: In general

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Only one miracle per ruler: This seems a reasonable restriction in terms of common sense. Some miracles are very powerful and in fluff terms are often rather more significant with a bigger and more lasting effect on a country and the world than a technology. A miracle is in most cases the culmination of a ruler's life and reign and for someone to manage more than one in their natural lifetime would make them a truly exceptional individual even by the standards of the exceptional individuals we all play. Miracles have become more commonplace than they once were, but they're still fundamentally pretty special.

Only one technology per ruler: This to an extent ties in with the question over how significant an advancement an individual technology should be. Some techs are the sort of thing that could, would or should have a huge effect on the world and make a great technological leap forward (e.g. the printing press). Some others are pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things and represent rather a minor improvement to something that already exists (e.g. Inspired militia), or perhaps allows someone to use in-game what they already have in the fluff (e.g. Tzaltec Fire, the aerial harness). In the latter cases, it is more reasonable that a single ruler would see the introduction of more than one during their rule; in the former case, not so much. However there is no clear answer as to which of these is the "correct" interpretation and there is no distinction between them either in IC or OOC terms: they're all just "technologies". That's purely from a fluff perspective: from a crunch perspective the latter ones are often more effective and give better bonuses.

Having the introduction of technologies tied to rulers acts as a natural brake on the first, world-changing, kind of technology. If somebody wants to play as a tech factory they have to make certain decisions in terms of the sort of government they want to play and each of their rulers won't be so individually significant or memorable. I don't think this is inherently unreasonable: different governmental styles have different characteristics, different stability/innovation ratios, and the like. It does mean for the game that people with long-lived rulers tend to introduce fewer of the more minor technologies but this doesn't actually appear to have been a major issue for anyone: there's relatively little correlation between the number of technologies a player introduces and the significance or effect of them, as far as I can tell.

If all it takes is a mechanical decision to refresh the stats, then as Rain says, once you've achieved certain other goals (or decided not to pursue them) there's no reason not to refresh your stats every time you introduce a tech or use a miracle so you can get onto the next one more quickly. And with power creep being the way it is, we could see a situation where the majority of players are introducing a new tech or miracle every other round while otherwise remaining visually unchanged. Even if that's not the way someone would like to play out of preference, after a while they're just handicapping themselves by not doing it. What started as an idea to give people the option to play a certain way could quickly end up becoming the default way that people play, not out of preference but by necessity. And if that becomes the norm as stats can be refreshed essentially at will then I think the whole core element of the game mechanics could probably do with revisiting.

I know it doesn't seem like that major a change but as zab says I think it would have a bigger effect than might be immediately apparent: an effect on everyone, and a bigger one than I'd feel comfortable seeing just to fix one problem for one player.

That's without going into any of the sacrifices, trade-offs or creative solutions people have already used to deal with this issue. You are not the first person to find yourself wanting to introduce techs more frequently, but people have previously treated this as an opportunity rather than an obstacle, and an incentive to develop things in a different direction. It is not a bulletproof argument but I think things being as they currently are has helped increase variety within the game rather than reduce it, and handwaving it away at this stage could feel like a bit of a kick in the teeth to people who've previously developed their own ways of addressing it.

Spoiler: Assassination etc.

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If a ruler dies or is captured in battle their realm loses access to their attributes, although mercy has been shown on occasion for the round immediately following that where it occurs, if that turns out to be important. PvP happens so rarely that rulers' being captured in battle is exceptional; I'm not 100% but I think it might only ever have happened to Sam among PCs (albeit three times). That's mostly a matter of luck and/or strategy (if you have your ruler leading a very small contingent in a battle where heavy casualties are likely there is a higher chance of their being captured, and on all occasions where it's happened the ruler in question has been leading a fairly token contingent).

Killing of player-rulers tends to be for RP reasons rather than forcing a stats refresh. Assassination doesn't happen often, especially since well-established ones have better attributes and are thus harder to kill (it's an opposed Military-Diplomacy roll). I think only one player-ruler (Murgen's) has been assassinated by other players. Occasionally a ruler is killed by GM fiat when they reach a very advanced age; that's happened twice that I'm aware of.

There is a practical consideration too: the usual, tedious, but important, one of tracking. It seems petty but someone has to keep track of these things and, the more vigorous the refresh and update rate, the more onerous that task becomes, which means more of a chance of updates lagging behind, people getting burned out, and so on.

[TheDarkDM]

I'm patient, I can wait.

There's also the possibility of QB opening an unexplored region to you, though I'm not sure if he has plans on that score or not. The underground map may or may not have more available regions than above ground right now, but any place they're free might put you in an awkward spot in regards to autonomy.

[Philote]

I realize that I am becoming obstinate, but it just seemed like such a simple thing for such a great improvement to the game and I am simply trying to understand. If the decision is that "it is too much of a hassle to attempt" then ignore the rest of this post and I'll drop the issue. I guess I'm a [Curiosity] person in real life too, so it is just eating at me that I can not find where the miscommunication is happening.

Spoiler: Trying to Understand

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I've said many times and in many ways [This is not a mechanical alteration] and I'm running out of ways to explain it so I'm going to try and implement a visual aid.

Spoiler: Current Fluff

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Round 1:
King Tiril
Starting Stat: Curiosity 6 [Rolled 4 + 2]
Additional Stats from this round: +2 Curiosity

Round 2:
King Tiril
Starting Stat: Curiosity 8
Additional Stats from this round: +2 Curiosity

Round 3:
King Tiril
Starting Stat: Curiosity 10
Additional Stats from this round: +2 Curiosity
Tech Creation!

[Ruler Change]: New Stats and Actions next round

Round 4:
Queen Mirian
Starting Stat: Curiosity 8 [Rolled 4 + 2 Curiosity Bonus + 2 Previous Actions]
Additional Stats from this round: +2 Curiosity

Round 5:
Queen Mirian
Starting Stat: Curiosity 10
Additional Stats from this round: +2 Curiosity
Tech Creation!

As you can see, in a five round period, I have gained +8 to a stat and created two techs.

Spoiler: New Fluff

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Round 1:
King Tiril
Starting Stat: Curiosity 6 [Rolled 4 + 2]
Additional Stats from this round: +2 Curiosity

Round 2:
King Tiril
Starting Stat: Curiosity 8
Additional Stats from this round: +2 Curiosity

Round 3:
King Tiril
Starting Stat: Curiosity 10
Additional Stats from this round: +2 Curiosity
Tech Creation!

[Empire State Change]: New Stats and Actions next round

Round 4:
King Tiril
Starting Stat: Curiosity 8 [Rolled 4 + 2 Curiosity Bonus + 2 Previous Actions]
Additional Stats from this round: +2 Curiosity

Round 5:
King Tiril
Starting Stat: Curiosity 10
Additional Stats from this round: +2 Curiosity
Tech Creation!

As you can see, in a five round period, I have gained +8 to a stat and created two techs.

This is not some mad grab at power. Since the beginning I've said that this will have no mechanical impact. There is no possible way for me to gain stats quicker or cheat out new techs simply because of a new description of fluff.

You are correct though that I wish for a more fluff appropriate length of rule for my ruler. For them to be around to experience the creation of multiple techs. For them to not be some irrelevant character that I must cut to simply enjoy the game. I do not, nor have I ever, intended for this to get me more techs through my playstyle.

If somebody wants to play as a tech factory they have to make certain decisions in terms of the sort of government they want to play and each of their rulers won't be so individually significant or memorable.

This is what I am contesting. The idea that if I want to play the game a certain way then "You have to make your empire like this" which denies me and others the possibility of fluffing our nation as we wish.

Techs are gained at an identical speed with both versions. It is just your opinion that a ruler could only handle one tech and that opinion should not force my decisions when it does not change the mechanics of the game.

If all it takes is a mechanical decision to refresh the stats, then as Rain says, once you've achieved certain other goals (or decided not to pursue them) there's no reason not to refresh your stats every time you introduce a tech or use a miracle so you can get onto the next one more quickly.

There is a practical consideration too: the usual, tedious, but important, one of tracking. It seems petty but someone has to keep track of these things and, the more vigorous the refresh and update rate, the more onerous that task becomes, which means more of a chance of updates lagging behind, people getting burned out, and so on.

As I've tried to show, there is no inherent playstyle change created by my suggestion. This is already inherently how the game is. Players can already at any point they wish cause this state of change in their empire to happen. It would be the exact same tracking already occurring. Stats can already be refreshed at will.

This may be an issue of presentation.

I am trying very hard. I've presented what should have been a simple explanation in as many ways that I have been capable of thinking.

That's without going into any of the sacrifices, trade-offs or creative solutions people have already used to deal with this issue.

You acknowledge the issue and admit that players have been forced to act in roundabout ways to simply circumvent this issue. I do not think that the excellence of players to work around an issue should be used as an argument that the issue should exist in the first place.

[Gengy]

@Phil: I don't think you are incorrect in wanting to play a different way with your Ruler. It has bugged me as well, that to get a new refresh of some of my Special Action 10 abilities, I need to change rulers. I've mostly stayed out of this conversation, because I wanted to see how it developed, and I think both sides have valid points. However, below is one I'm not sure I agree with.

This is what I am contesting. The idea that if I want to play the game a certain way then "You have to make your empire like this" which denies me and others the possibility of fluffing our nation as we wish.

I... don't think anyone is denying you anything here, other then that - as stated by QB and several other mods - Stats will remain tied to a single person, rather then the empire itself. Which person that is, is up to you. You can create a fluff reason to "go dormant" or "refresh" your ruler. I don't believe that anyone will be upset if you keep the same ruler, but refresh your stats. I mean, it's not how things are currently done, but if you can come up with a good fluff reason, you can do it.

And I think that's the major point of miscommunication here; the heart of the matter. You want to keep the same ruler, but change stats. I don't - personally - see that as a problem... so long as there is a good enough explanation for it. I think long-time players will find it... goes against the grain a bit, but if you have a legitimate IC reason for your ruler getting new stats every few rounds, then I'd say go for it. It could be as wacky as "My ruler is undead and goes dormant every few years, and must regain his strength after dormancy", or as tried and true as "they got amensia", or even as simple as "With their most recent scientific discovery accomplished, my ruler proceeds to redirect their vast intellect in a new direction, and begins learning about things all over again."

That is all I will say on this matter, unless invited by GMs to discuss more. I think it's been talked about enough, and some solutions have been offered.

[SamBurke]

@Phil: I don't think you are incorrect in wanting to play a different way with your Ruler. It has bugged me as well, that to get a new refresh of some of my Special Action 10 abilities, I need to change rulers. I've mostly stayed out of this conversation, because I wanted to see how it developed, and I think both sides have valid points. However, below is one I'm not sure I agree with.



I... don't think anyone is denying you anything here, other then that - as stated by QB and several other mods - Stats will remain tied to a single person, rather then the empire itself. Which person that is, is up to you. You can create a fluff reason to "go dormant" or "refresh" your ruler. I don't believe that anyone will be upset if you keep the same ruler, but refresh your stats. I mean, it's not how things are currently done, but if you can come up with a good fluff reason, you can do it.

And I think that's the major point of miscommunication here; the heart of the matter. You want to keep the same ruler, but change stats. I don't - personally - see that as a problem... so long as there is a good enough explanation for it. I think long-time players will find it... goes against the grain a bit, but if you have a legitimate IC reason for your ruler getting new stats every few rounds, then I'd say go for it. It could be as wacky as "My ruler is undead and goes dormant every few years, and must regain his strength after dormancy", or as tried and true as "they got amensia", or even as simple as "With their most recent scientific discovery accomplished, my ruler proceeds to redirect their vast intellect in a new direction, and begins learning about things all over again."

That is all I will say on this matter, unless invited by GMs to discuss more. I think it's been talked about enough, and some solutions have been offered.

This is exactly what Phi wants to do, but there's been objection to that very idea.

On that note, I agree with basically everything Phi said about it; I think it was pretty well-said.

[Philote]

Thank you Gengy.

I think this originated as a problem for a couple reasons. It all started when I noticed Blue Guard's complaints on skype and thought I had come up with a pretty clever solution for his problem and several others, including my own (Not that Blue Guard is necessarily agreeing with my current arguement.) Because of this, I tried describing a system where the fluff for rulership was more open instead of decided on a case by case basis.

In truth, if what I am asking for is approved, I will reformat my government into something more creative, but the exact outcome of that I have not decided yet. I have been hoping for a general application instead of needing to argue for every specific application.

[Aedilred]

This is exactly what Phi wants to do, but there's been objection to that very idea.

I think if the reason given is good enough - and Gengy's suggestions include something that one player already does - there wouldn't be a problem.

Nobody wants to limit creativity. But I don't think that changing what has been a fairly basic rule of the game for everyone is an appropriate solution in this instance, and think it's better that the default presumption remain as is with exceptions created where it makes fluff sense rather than vice versa.

[TheDarkDM]

Guys, QB has ruled on this already. Fluff up something that works within the bounds of that ruling.

[Philote]

There is an unspoken rule that "If you have the fluff for it, you can design your empire however you see fit". My only attempt has been to get this officially recognized for the benefit of everyone.

I'm just going to go, wait for the next appropriate time for my empire to change, and introduce the fluff that I see is most fitting for my empire.

Alright, I'm done.

Can I please get input on the second topic, my tech approval?

[QuintonBeck]

I'm patient, I can wait.

Quoting this here so I remember to send you a PM with details on unexplored regions though I would encourage you to look at NPCs again and make sure there's no chance you could pick one up. There's some that have acquired or came with regions completely lacking in detail so if you wanted to do your thing and have it subsume the discoverer that is an option. Sulvan's Primarchy has a region that's been full of bad/weird things lacking a writeup as well as soon to be an unwritten region with no details though you might want to talk with Burch about it since it's currently his region. Alzeroth has an under-region with undefined inhabitants which were said to be large in discovery text but could potentially be handwaved though both of those come with a decent amount of history. The Coalition of the Abyssian Sea is underwater but has a region that's unwritten and has been innactive enough that some nudges on fluff probably wouldn't break anyone's heart. They're also a round away from a Great Kingdom. Just things to consider.

Guys, QB has ruled on this already. Fluff up something that works within the bounds of that ruling.

Thank you Dark.

Can I please get input on the second topic, my tech approval?

I still don't understand why a fantastical cloth resource allows you to have extra stone and mirror fortifications.

[WaylanderX]

Alzeroth has an under-region with undefined inhabitants which were said to be large in discovery text but could potentially be handwaved though both of those come with a decent amount of history.

I just finished the write-up of Alzeroth's under region. However, if you want to take it over and change some of the fluff, Durmatagno, I am sure we can figure out a deal that works for the both of us.

The region in question: Hringboga!

Hringboga
Region 139B
Alzeroth Collective
Lesser Vassal of the Hurosha Empire
Population: 60.000+Round 40 pop increase

Spoiler: Terrain

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Home of the Naedre, Hringboga, or Coiled Serpent in the native's tongue, is a strange, hostile region. As far as sightseeing goes, there is not much to see in Hringboga. The whole region is covered in pitchblack darkeness and everything that lives down here is adapted to this harsh environment perfectly. However, for one with sufficient light and/or other means of observing their surroundings, Hringboga is a strange place indeed.

First of all, you have the Blóma, a massive lump of naturally formed Adamantine formations. Tree-like structures jut out from the main mass, giving the whole area an eery appearence. The majority of Hringboga's Adamantine reserves are gathered from this place. Locals revere this place for it's haunting appearence, seeing it as the first stage towards beauty.

To the south of the Blóma, one can find the Hwéol Sciell, a giant shell-like structure around a mile in diameter. Structured much like the spiraled shell of certain species of shellfish, the creature that left behind these gigantuan remains is unknown. In the middle of the structure, a big, 10 meter high adamantine monolith stands, partly broken, ancient enscriptions vaguely visible on it's surface.

A carving made by the Naedre, depicting the general layout of the Hwéol Sciell

Finally, sitting in the western regions of Hringboga, is the Ácolitus. This area is home to the only plant-life in the whole regions, massive collonies of soft mosses that cover an area more than trice the size of Earthhome. The reason plant-life is possible here is because of the strange fungi that cling to the cavern's ceiling, producing an soft light. Due to an unknown process, the fungi radiate red light when it is day at the surface, and green light when it is night. The reason for this is still unknown.

An area of the Ácolitus, when completely lighted up with the help of vallotake.

Spoiler: People

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Name: Naedre
Subgroup: Giant-folk
Strenght Ratio: 10:1

[Picture goes here, WIP]

The native folk of Hringboga are a giant-like race called the Naedre. They possess the upper body of a humanoid, but their lower body is that of a gigantic snake. The Naedre are quite slimly build, to aid their nagivation through the treaterous underdark. They possess a fat reserve in their tales, keeping the upper body slimmer due to a lesser need for fat storage there. These snake-like giants are quite heavily muscled, although the males are moreso such than females. Because of the everlasting darkness, the Naedre have no eyes, instead relying on echolocation to find their way. To this end, large flaps of scaled skin crown their heads, much like a cobra's hood. They can widen or even hide the flaps if it proved to be needed. They typically stand around four meters high, with their tail reaching lenghts of around 7 meters.

Their echolocation allows them to find their way in absolute darkness, pinpointing obstacles, companions and so on. Their echolocation is extremely well developed. From the resonating frequency of a metal they encounter, they can deduce which metal it is, providing they have been teached how to do it. They also have the uncanny ability to sense a person's mood through bodylanguage alone, making hiding your real intent from them a problem in some cases.

Due to the absence of eyes, the Naedre have a bleak skin and dark scales, without much of a pattern present. Their hair, while a dull black in most cases, is grown long and well groomed.

The Naedre are a highly intellegent race, their intelligence being on par with that of humans and most types of Fae. They have a rich culture, oral traditions and folklore, which mostly focuses on the concepts of form, the creation of form, the perservation of form and the attainment of the perfect form. Both Naedre men and women are dressed quite extravagantly, but the concept of cloth clothing is rather unknown to them, seeing no need to hide the beauty of ones body. After their joining of the Alzeroth Collective however, diplomats started wearing the bare minimum of clothing to be considered appropriate, as the first few, more traditionally dressed, diplomats were met with confusion and awed gazes from their human compatriots.

In stark contrast to their harsh environment, or maybe because of it, the Naedre put a large emphasis on the beauty of shape and form, wearing all kinds of metallic jewelry and ornaments. Metals are held in high regard in this region, especially supernatural metal, and are used in almost everything during their daily lives. From houses to dinnerplates to roads, if it can be made of metal, it is made of metal. The metal most abundant in Hringboga is Adamantine, so the buildings found here are very solidly build and extremely sturdy.

In addition to their reverense of physical beauty, the Naedre also strive to perfect their inner beauty. As such, these giants are welcoming and very friendly to visitors. They are also keen on getting to know other beauty ideals, as some of the Alzeroth explorers, both male and female, discovered when visiting the Naedre capital of Cofa.

Spoiler: Resources

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Hringboga is a desolate place, barren of any living resources. However, it is a host of a lot of metals, the most prominent being a rather Great amount of Adamantine. Most likely, more wondrous metals await deeper within the darkness.

Because of the Naedre's fascination with metals, they wish to collect more. As such, they require any Supernatural Metal, except Adamantine, so they can use it in their culture.

Spoiler: Government

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The Naedre are led by two leaders, namely the man and the woman that are found to be the most beautiful within Hringboga. As someone so beautiful, surely they also have the means and Prowess to lead the Naedre in their searches and endeavours. The rest of the Naedre are organized into families, with the youngest adults (30 years-40 years) lead the family.

Spoiler: Religion

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The Naedre's pursuit for beauty is more akin to a lifestyle than an actual religion. Aside from that, most Naedre's worship their ancestors and it appears traces of the Guardian and Ashmar trickled in from above.

Spoiler: Major Settlements

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Cofa: The Metal City, home to around 60% of the Naedre population. The majority of the city is build from Adamantine, even up to the streets themselves. Buildings shaped into beautiful shapes, walkways and aquaducts curving elegantly through the city. However, although it's all clearly visible for the Naedre, for outsiders, the beauty is largely lost, due to the almost complete lack of lighting in the city. The only source of lighting being the soft glowing fungus sound at the Ácolitus, the majority of the city is pitchblack for most people's eyes. If one could see it, the Temple of Eoro Ár stands tall in the middle of the city, a testament of the Naedre's exploits.

Fréols: When Alzeroth explorers first came to Hringboga, they touched down upon it's rocky floor near this town. Situated near the eastern edge of the region, this town is actually one of the larger cities in the region, housing around 4.000 Naedre. It was here that the talks between the Alzerites and the Naedre took place, resulting in Hringboga joining the Collective.

Spoiler: Temple of Eoro Ár

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This tall, lean structure is build from an array of materials, from adamantine to iron and granite. It is here that the greatest accomplishments of beauty are made immortal. Beautiful sculptures and engravings are displayed here, their inspirations made immortal. Besides life-like statues, also strange metalic statues can be found here, made for the sole purpose of reflecting sound as beautifully as possible. Normal creature cannot see this, but to an Naedre, the ways sound bounces off and vibrates through these statues is a thing of wonder indeed.

Some of the newest additions put on display, showing Alzeroth humans.


One of the more stranger statues found in the Eoro Ár, designed to reflect sound.

Spoiler: List of Naedrean Words

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Hringboga: Coiled Serpent
Naedre: Serpent
Blóma: Metal Mass
Hwéol Sciell: Circle Shell
Ácolitus: Acolyte of the Light
Cofa: Den
Eoro Ár: Earthly Grace
Fréols: Free Will
Aeldu Brytengrund: Dark Earth

[Morph Bark]

Wouldn't they have a vastly different concept of beauty, since they are blind? They would probably be more likely to create sculptures that "sound" beautiful, rather than looking beautiful to those who've come from the surface and have functioning eyes. Material thus becomes much more important, while shapes could be rougher and still be gorgeous due to the way the sound bounces off its curves and edges.

They sound a little bit unhealthy with their "not a grain of fat".

I really like the terrain so far, though of course it'd be cool to know some things behind the glowing mushrooms matching the sun's turning.

Praise Helix.

[zabbarot]

No body fat implies that they always have food available since it exists as a storage mechanism. A famine would probably wipe these guys out completely. With no body fat they'd rapidly loose muscle and then vital tissues. >.> Body fat is a survival feature, and having none in a preindustrial society is probably not a good thing.

A healthy body fat percentage for a snake is about 11-13% regardless of gender. For athletic* humans it's sort of in that same ballpark (6-13% for males, 14-20% for females). How much gender dimorphism are you going for? You mention the males are more heavily muscled so the human body fat percentages are probably a better example.

*very fit people. If you're in this range, and aren't working out constantly, you might be unhealthy... maybe check with a doctor.

[Philote]

I still don't understand why a fantastical cloth resource allows you to have extra stone and mirror fortifications.

My best example that I've had the time to show off is from the Sixth Tellurian Games Arts Contest (Caramel still holds its two time record of most misunderstood art).

In this contest, I created a set of 10 armors crafted with garb. The armor set was designed with a focus on the 10 elements, but each element was not tied solely to one armor. The armor's themes would rotate. An armor that started on the water element would changed to the earth element, while the next armor clockwise would gain the water element's design.

The idea is that armors are changing with more than size or shape, they are carrying with them the fundamental ideas associated with each element as they transform.

This is the main core of Garb, "Theme Changing". It is not only a physical fabric, but a fabric constructed with thoughts, ideals, and experiences weaved in. Of course though, there is a lot of untapped potential in Garb, which is why I'm starting my expansion of it through the use of technological discoveries. So, you're right in a sense, Garb started out day 1 as a just fancy clothing, but that is not the finished product and I've had plans to expand on it since the beginning.

In the case of my next tech, Transformative Material, Garb's specific properties are being expanded upon and applied to other materials. So I am not coating my empire in fabric, but the same building materials enhanced by Garb. The Garb itself is kept as a sort of controlling device though.

My tech should apply to any type of construction related to fortifications, since reactive or variable defenses would be good for any structure, but in the case of Shintouite and Solar Ray Towers, imagine this:

Imagine an army advancing on your empire. The towers and walls of your empire have been built with a reflective material, crafted in panels to focus the light in specific directions. The Solar Rays beam out, deflecting projectiles and hampering the army. The enemies advance, doing their best to foil this defense to finally reach your walls. Their siege weapons approach your wall to open a way inside, only to find that the fragile reflective mirrors have hardened into Shintouite defenses once the impact has struck. Now all assaulted parts of the wall resist attack with Shintouite defenses while the parts not yet attacked harass the enemy army with Solar Ray design.

My favorite part of this is that the artistic fluff for garb can be carried on into these fortifications.

[Celestial Theme] Your emipre's walls shift into a sleek design of Solar Ray configurations. Like stained glass, these focusing mirrors evoke varying images. Circling planets direct light to a central sun that beams out to defend your empire. A nebulous cloud reflects out many smaller scattered beams. Mirrors can slide to where their defense is most needed, like shining comets coming to save your empire.
[Rook Theme] Your empire's walls shift into a mighty Shintouite design that draws upon the history of ideas built into the game of chess. Mighty rook-like towers, Walls with statues of knight chess pieces, The king standing over the front gate.

[WaylanderX]

No body fat implies that they always have food available since it exists as a storage mechanism. A famine would probably wipe these guys out completely. With no body fat they'd rapidly loose muscle and then vital tissues. >.> Body fat is a survival feature, and having none in a preindustrial society is probably not a good thing.

A healthy body fat percentage for a snake is about 11-13% regardless of gender. For athletic* humans it's sort of in that same ballpark (6-13% for males, 14-20% for females). How much gender dimorphism are you going for? You mention the males are more heavily muscled so the human body fat percentages are probably a better example.

*very fit people. If you're in this range, and aren't working out constantly, you might be unhealthy... maybe check with a doctor.

The human ranges work pretty wel I think. I'll add it i.....wait idea. I'm giving them a splash of leopard gecko. They keep part of their fat reserves in their tail (around a third should be appropriate as not to fatten the tail too much), acting as a storage for harsher times. Ty zab, you gave me a pretty nice idea :P.

Wouldn't they have a vastly different concept of beauty, since they are blind? They would probably be more likely to create sculptures that "sound" beautiful, rather than looking beautiful to those who've come from the surface and have functioning eyes. Material thus becomes much more important, while shapes could be rougher and still be gorgeous due to the way the sound bounces off its curves and edges.

I would say both. While sound reflection would indeed be important, their vision resolution would be high enough to enable quite accurate portait sculptures. For one who cannot distinguish something beautifull as color or can see a view from a mountain's cliff, I imagine the physical forms that they can distinguish to be considered very important.

I really like the terrain so far, though of course it'd be cool to know some things behind the glowing mushrooms matching the sun's turning.

Praise Helix.

Helix OP, nerf.

[QuintonBeck]

Durmatagno your inbox is full, also saw I totally spaced on actually linking you a preview map...

*Snip*

This still doesn't make any sense to me. You have magic cloth that can take on properties. Now all of a sudden you're telling me that those properties can be transferred. That's like saying you have a bunch of blue eggs so now you can make anything blue which is silly. If you want to expand garb's techniques to other thing that's probably a single tech all in and of itself and honestly I'm not even sure a tech would be appropriate. Possibly a whole nother resource or a Miracle or something because that's straight up expanding the supernatural properties of a resource into a full on magic type.

As it stands, the tech as written is not approved.

[Philote]

you're telling me that those properties can be transferred.

If you want to expand garb's techniques to other thing that's probably a single tech all in and of itself

That is exactly what I'm saying / doing. The tech is exactly the discovery and application of these properties in expanded circumstances.

That's like saying you have a bunch of blue eggs so now you can make anything blue which is silly.

Blue dye from eggshells? Certainly discovering new properties or uses would fall under the ruling of a tech.

that's straight up expanding the supernatural properties of a resource into a full on magic type.

What is so unbelievable that I would need so many C10s and a F10 to accomplish?

[QuintonBeck]

That is exactly what I'm saying / doing. The tech is exactly the discovery and application of these properties in expanded circumstances.

Cept you're not. You're saying it does all this and also it allows me to stack fortification techs. You could, maybe and I'd still have to think about it but I'd at least consider it C10 "Expanded Garb Use" or something as a base for a future tech to let Garb apply to things like fortification stacking but it's still making one resource really broadly applicable with no cap and setting a precedent that you can just further C10 things into useful things when they have no basis in being said things so the answer is still a solid no.

As to eggshell dye, you're ignoring my point.

It's unbelievable that a sheet of cloth allows multiple properties to exist in the same space no matter how magical the cloth. As I said, it's not passing my inspection atm.

[Philote]

One side is fluff and the other side is mechanics. Are you asking me to create one tech that does nothing just to create another tech later on?

The only application currently is the fortifications. Surely there is not a rule on the number of techs that can be built using a certain resource.

[QuintonBeck]

One side is fluff and the other side is mechanics. Are you asking me to create one tech that does nothing just to create another tech later on?

The only application currently is the fortifications. Surely there is not a rule on the number of techs that can be built using a certain resource.

Since the fluff is so vast and broadly applicable. Yes, yes I am. There's plenty of fluff only techs for basing more complicated techs off them.

The only application is fortifications of which we currently have 2 but there's nothing stopping people from creating 10 more and the proposed tech would stack with all of them. You could have 12 defensive techs that wouldn't normally stack together stacked together through 1 tech that doesn't make any sense to me or a variety of other folks.

My proposal would be Cur 10 Advanced Garb use which allows the magic of the cloth to be explored in the fluff way you're talking about able to quasi-replicate the abilities of other stuff if it has that stuff to draw from to replicate. I might even limit it to being able to do that with 2 different resources but no more. This tech would do nothing mechanically. Then a subsequent C10 would require Advanced Garb as a tech and could potentially stack Shintouite with Solar Rays (not Fortifications in general, but those two specific techs) as the cloth is able to replicate those two needed materials into one sheet of Shintosolar Garb which can be applied to fortifications but still requires the resource to draw the shifting abilities from. That's paced, that makes sense, that's something I'd consider approving.