How much grain can go through a Teleportation Circle?

[Segev]

Teleportation circle is a 5th level spell. I think Sorcerers can get it. Make a Sorcerer 9 who can cast teleportation circle and simulacrum or who can donate his hair clippings to such creations.

Now make as many simulacra of the sorcerer as you want to be able to make transits through your teleportation circles per day. They can't regain spell slots, but they do regain sorcery points. Which they can convert to 5th level spell slots.

[JoeJ]

You know, larger cities might employ this method, such as large kingdoms that might have their "beadbasket" regions at a great distance from the rest of their kingdom. After all, not every major city has their fields outside their gates. Maybe the central receiving area has a schedule that they maintain: food products during this block of time, mail deliveries during a different time; similar to how a train yard functions. If we talking that sort of magical infrastructure, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to imagine that they've developed a physical structure that is capable of generating a teleportation circle on its own, activated by an initiate-level spell.

I was actually thinking that, since a lot of travelers probably don't want to appear inside a huge grain elevator, there could be a separate public teleportation circle somewhere more convenient. The owner might charge a fee to everyone arriving through it.

[Slipperychicken]

I was actually thinking that, since a lot of travelers probably don't want to appear inside a huge grain elevator, there could be a separate public teleportation circle somewhere more convenient. The owner might charge a fee to everyone arriving through it.

The spell shunts people to the nearest unoccupied space. Just set up a contrivance to occupy space such that travelers appear in the desired area.

One way I thought to do this was placing the circle in a walled-off, fully-occupied room with alcoves on the outer walls for travelers to appear in.

[karolusb]

Yes. We're starting with the assumption that the spell has been houseruled to work on objects as well as creatures.

Nobody is carrying the grain, that's the beauty of this. It's sitting in a large bin with a 10' diameter opening at the bottom. The wizard casts the spell on the platform directly underneath the bin. As the last syllables are spoken, either the wizard or their assistant pulls the chain that causes the doors of the bin to drop open. The grain falls right though the portal into the warehouse. If the bin is the right size, it finishes emptying just as the spell ends so there shouldn't even be a lot of spillage. By building several bins that can be filled and emptied in sequence, the harvesters don't have to exactly keep pace with the wizard, so that would almost certainly be how it would be done.

Flow rate (m^3/s)= .75(~9pi)(root(9.8*3) (Beaverloo)

The effective diameter is 3.048-.009, so the estimate of three costs us nothing.

115m^3 per second for six seconds. 1300 lbs wheat per m^3. 897,000 pounds per casting. (In reality we should be at 1700 lb per M^3, but un-milled while better for storage, is worse for actual eating, so the 1300 probably better reflects the actual food value of the wheat in terms of the PHB 1lb per day value).

If the wheat has a high moisture level it has a slowing effect, but due to the effective diameter calculation I suspect the effect would be minimal with the massive effective diameter.

I would skip the apprentice with a pull chain, simply make the floor of the silo the teleportation circle, whatever you lose from falling velocity drop (which is actually not going to be a benefit per beaverloo), you gain back from not having miscued timings.

I suspect the biggest limitation is going to be silo size. The above assumes a silo at You need a 690 cubic meter silo for this, it doesn't need to all be vertical, but even so this is a pretty large bit of space. About 2/7 of a Olympic swimming pool.

As to cost, you have to determine your own pricing, but if we imagine the wizard making 5% of the total commodity value, that's 450 gold per casting less expenses. I suspect my wizard would be willing to do that job.

It works much worse with other items, (crates would likely shatter at destination, fall less evenly through the portal). This method really does work best for bulk grain shipment (or water).

[REVISIONIST]

A quick google search came up with a loss of over 4 million tons of merchant goods during WWII, that was from the USCG #'s, and for the
US alone, why wouldn't a Spelljammer setting assume that it was just easier to bulk ship food, grain, etc. and account for the loss, insure it as
much as could be considering a war time footing and not worry about magic users who are almost always flighty at best?

[mgshamster]

A quick google search came up with a loss of over 4 million tons of merchant goods during WWII, that was from the USCG #'s, and for the
US alone, why wouldn't a Spelljammer setting assume that it was just easier to bulk ship food, grain, etc. and account for the loss, insure it as
much as could be considering a war time footing and not worry about magic users who are almost always flighty at best?

Some cities certainly do. This city has employed spellcasters to do the job. The rulers of the city have decided it was more cost efficient.

I don't know why. Maybe the travel route to get to this city is extraordinarily hazardous. Maybe they can't get enough food in by normal means. Maybe it's too far and the food comes in mosty rotted. I'm not quite sure. But whatever their reasons are, they've decided to employ spellcasters to solve their food issues.

[manny2510]

I don't think that the goodberry and troll burger franchise is as crazy as paying for a teleportation circle to deliver goods when the cost of a teleportation circle is overall 18,250 gold as a minimum if you are not paying the caster outside of material components and nothing bad happens to them or the circle. The spell consumes "rare chalks and inks infused with precious gems with 50 GP, which the spell consumes" so I don't think that It is crazy to assume that the circle is drawn in chalk. Destroying that circle is a costly mistake when handling loads of bulk goods, and merits a legitimate concern of planar incursion. The three sigils that are designated to that circle cannot become common knowledge because of the grave consequences of that knowledge passing into the hands of powerful enemies. I am going to assume that the city itself is probably primarily "good" in overall population because of traditional fantasy dynamics. There may not be an "evil" kingdom, but if a 50gp temporary teleportation circle can ruin 18,250 gold of effort with a delayed fireball, an unruly boar, or a troop of skeletons, I'd hesitate to risk my population on this circle. I suppose that there could be fifty of these circles, but too many redundant circles would require an amount of experienced spell-casters that would overpopulate the setting in general. "Hey mate, the mind of the people who see the symbol is erased, people that are near it are vetted with detect thoughts, the circle is made of adamantine, and there is a spell of forbiddance against enemies" sounds like it would take so many spells, that it would invariably be cheaper to feed the population with goodberries and troll meat as a reliable, renewable, and sustainable base for feeding 12,000 people.

I like this thread and sorry for derailing it but I like to make an argument for simplicity in a world of magic requiring volumetric analysis. KISS (keep it sweet and simple).

[tsotate]

why wouldn't a Spelljammer setting assume that it was just easier to bulk ship food, grain, etc. and account for the loss, insure it as
much as could be considering a war time footing and not worry about magic users who are almost always flighty at best?

Because Spelljammer ships require even more of those flighty casters. A caster being used to power shipping is also at much greater risk than one in his home city casting a spell once in a while.

[JellyPooga]

On the subject of Goodberry as a source of food; a Warlock/Druid can produce a lot more Goodberries than a straight Druid.

A single level 2 Warlock 1/Druid 1 can produce 20 berries an hour using Pact Magic, plus an additional 20 berries with his Druid slots. Given a 10 hour working day, he's generating 220 berries a day. 55 "employees" working at that rate would be sufficient to provide for a population of 12,000.

All it takes to work for McGoodberries is an intensive outdoor training programme and to sell your soul...

[tieren]

From a world building perspective I think it makes sense to look at the history of the development of the supply problem.

At some point in the past the agricultural production on site was sufficient to meet the needs of the population, as the population grew it couldn't keep up. Now it is so far out of whack that permanent teleportation circles seem reasonable, but the cost of such a program would have seemed ridiculous when the shortfall was only for a few hundred people.

At that point shipping probably addressed the issue, and as demand grew, so would prices drawing in more shipping. Thats ends up being a lot of spelljammer ships with a lot of casters coming and going.

It wouldn't take much for an enterprising young wizard to give up the shipping routes and open a food cart using create food and prestidigitation. Similarly magic initiates or young druids could create eateries that not only distribute the McGoodberries, but maybe leverage the crops that are grown locally to try to make some interesting goodberry dishes. Just because they don't grow enough grain to meet everyone's dietary needs doesn't mean they can't use some of it to make goodberry sweet buns or chicken fried goodberry rice.

Ultimately, anyone proposing the infrastructure to create the hyperspace grain tube is going to find opposition from all of the merchants, traders, and shippers that will have been meeting the city's needs up to that point. Let alone the local farmers who will see the demand for their crops plummet.

[jkat718]

All it takes to work for McGoodberries is an intensive outdoor training programme and to sell your soul...

Permission to sig?

[JellyPooga]

Permission to sig?

Granted

[mgshamster]

On the subject of Goodberry as a source of food; a Warlock/Druid can produce a lot more Goodberries than a straight Druid.

A single level 2 Warlock 1/Druid 1 can produce 20 berries an hour using Pact Magic, plus an additional 20 berries with his Druid slots. Given a 10 hour working day, he's generating 220 berries a day. 55 "employees" working at that rate would be sufficient to provide for a population of 12,000.

All it takes to work for McGoodberries is an intensive outdoor training programme and to sell your soul...

I think we've found a new warlock patron: The Corporation

[krugaan]

I think we've found a new warlock patron: The Corporation

I had to LOL at this.

Offerings have to be made in bars of gold-pressed latinum.

[mgshamster]

Let's see here... Corporate Patron:

Spells:
1st Level: Command, Charm Person
2nd level: Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts
3rd level: Clairvoyance, Nondetection
4th level: Dominate Beast, Mordenkainen's Magical Sanctum (aka, secure meeting room)
5th level: Dominate Person, Mislead

Corporate Protection - Shifting the Blame: At 1st level you can use your corporate protection to shield you from harm. Any time you are the target of a spell, attack, or other effect, you can redirect it to another creature within 10' of you. You cannot use this ability again until you've taken a short or long rest.

Corporate Truth: Starting at 6th level, you gain expertise in Persuasion and Deception. You gain double your proficiency bonus on these two skills.

Corporate Protection - Proprietary Information: Starting at 10th level, your mind can't be read by telepathy or any other ability unless you want it to. Additionally, the corporation makes you immune to charm spells, so you won't sell out to someone else.

Corporate Protection - Aggressive Lawyers: At 10th level, whenever a creature deals psychic damage to you, it takes the same amount of psychic damage.

Create Shill: Starting at 14th level, you can turn a creature into a corporate shill. That creature is charmed by you until a Remove Curse spell is cast upon it, the charmed effect is removed from it, or you use this ability again.

[JoeJ]

Flow rate (m^3/s)= .75(~9pi)(root(9.8*3) (Beaverloo)

The effective diameter is 3.048-.009, so the estimate of three costs us nothing.

115m^3 per second for six seconds. 1300 lbs wheat per m^3. 897,000 pounds per casting. (In reality we should be at 1700 lb per M^3, but un-milled while better for storage, is worse for actual eating, so the 1300 probably better reflects the actual food value of the wheat in terms of the PHB 1lb per day value).

If the wheat has a high moisture level it has a slowing effect, but due to the effective diameter calculation I suspect the effect would be minimal with the massive effective diameter.

It looks like most of the estimates are reasonably close together, with about 1-3 weeks of casting being enough to supply the city for a year. That leaves lots of slack to account for spillage, spoilage, and other problems or emergencies. Or to make sure there's enough grain to brew beer as well as bake bread.

I would skip the apprentice with a pull chain, simply make the floor of the silo the teleportation circle, whatever you lose from falling velocity drop (which is actually not going to be a benefit per beaverloo), you gain back from not having miscued timings.

I thought about that, but the spell description says the caster has to draw a circle on the ground. I guess I could houserule that away, but I'd rather not deal with allowing the spell to be cast without the caster seeing the spot where the portal opens. And given the estimates I'm seeing here, it's really not necessary.

I don't think that the goodberry and troll burger franchise is as crazy as paying for a teleportation circle to deliver goods when the cost of a teleportation circle is overall 18,250 gold as a minimum if you are not paying the caster outside of material components and nothing bad happens to them or the circle. The spell consumes "rare chalks and inks infused with precious gems with 50 GP, which the spell consumes" so I don't think that It is crazy to assume that the circle is drawn in chalk. Destroying that circle is a costly mistake when handling loads of bulk goods, and merits a legitimate concern of planar incursion. The three sigils that are designated to that circle cannot become common knowledge because of the grave consequences of that knowledge passing into the hands of powerful enemies. I am going to assume that the city itself is probably primarily "good" in overall population because of traditional fantasy dynamics. There may not be an "evil" kingdom, but if a 50gp temporary teleportation circle can ruin 18,250 gold of effort with a delayed fireball, an unruly boar, or a troop of skeletons, I'd hesitate to risk my population on this circle. I suppose that there could be fifty of these circles, but too many redundant circles would require an amount of experienced spell-casters that would overpopulate the setting in general. "Hey mate, the mind of the people who see the symbol is erased, people that are near it are vetted with detect thoughts, the circle is made of adamantine, and there is a spell of forbiddance against enemies" sounds like it would take so many spells, that it would invariably be cheaper to feed the population with goodberries and troll meat as a reliable, renewable, and sustainable base for feeding 12,000 people.

18,250 gp is not very expensive for setting up a bulk transport system that will be used year after year. Even a single ship costs a lot more than that once you add the spelljamming helm. I don't see anything in the spell description saying that a circle can be erased after it becomes permanent, so I'd say that's a non-issue. There's also nothing about spell effects passing through the portal, but even if they could, so what? The receiving end is a temporary storage bin that's almost always empty - it's only in use while a shipment is actively being received. An enemy that can't find a more useful target to attack has already lost. The sigils would be more like proprietary business secrets than highly classified military information.

Goodberries and troll meat (Are trolls even edible? They look poisonous.) have the problem that the city would cease to exist once everybody left to find a place where they could eat real food.

[mgshamster]

According to the DMG, a warship has the highest cargo capacity at 200 tons. It costs 25,000 GP.

Our Teleportation Circle is more cost efficient. :)

[JoeJ]

According to the DMG, a warship has the highest cargo capacity at 200 tons. It costs 25,000 GP.

Our Teleportation Circle is more cost efficient. :)

For water, however, dropping ice asteroids into the lake still beats out Teleportation Circle because Rule of Cool.

[Temperjoke]

For water, however, dropping ice asteroids into the lake still beats out Teleportation Circle because Rule of Cool.

That only temporarily solves the global warming problem. You'll have to keep doing it every year. A more elegant solution is to have all the magic-users combine together on an island and work together to move the whole planet.

*coughs*

Anyways, if this sort of food delivery system was commonplace for the large-scale cities, I'd imagine that it would lead to alterations in war strategy. I mean, if they can portal food in, it'd be difficult to lay a traditional siege to a city, you either have to attack the food source instead or find a way to block the teleportation magic.


EDIT: Oooh, a plothook! Food goes into the teleportation circle, but the city storehouses are still going empty. Where is all the grain disappearing to?

[JoeJ]

That only temporarily solves the global warming problem. You'll have to keep doing it every year. A more elegant solution is to have all the magic-users combine together on an island and work together to move the whole planet.

There may be another solution. The illithid ambassador has invited the other races to assist with their project of extinguishing the sun.