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2016-08-13, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-08-14, 04:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
If Roy fails and Blood Oath will be carried over to Remade World, with Xykon dead by the hands of third party - Eugene is stuck on the cloud forever, right?
Or if he is getting kicked out of Celestia due to shifted alignment and Roy gets there - he might never see Roy again, probably, no?
All the good reasons to pay one last visit to his son.
And if he is so good with scrying and has literally nothing else to do but watch and think, then he saw what Roy is doing, i.e. that he needs to unlock his sword's power and in what way.
All the good reasons to pay one last visit to his son and ANNOY THE CRAP OUT OF HIM!
Because if Eugene just tells Roy to "just remember how you hate me, your father", it will make Roy feel less righteous anger for him, since he would be both helpful and admitting his flaws to a point.
Eugene probably did the last and best thing he could do for Roy, by doing the thing he is best at.
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2016-08-14, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
Just wanted to point out that today's Father's Day in Brazil (2nd Sunday of August). These last strips are a refreshing remark on a healthy father-son relationship.
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2016-08-14, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
You haven't convinced me that the Deva meant it that way, at as other conversation details seem unimportant in that case even if they don't contradict. You have though convinced me that it is at least consistent enough to not be as surprised if it turns out to work this way.
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2016-08-14, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
How does "Your son is getting in because he died in the process of attempting to fulfill the oath" not directly contradict the assertion that he got in for a reason completely unrelated to his efforts to fulfill the oath?
If you want to say you believe the deva lied rather than that the words Eugene said didn't detail the entirety of the oath's effects, that's one thing, but simply ignoring the deva's words makes no sense.Last edited by Kish; 2016-08-14 at 10:57 AM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2016-08-14, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
Yeah, which is one of the bits of text that makes less sense in the 'Blood Oaths only bind the swearers' interpretation. All I'm saying is that it's hard to argue that following a Blood Oath regardless of mystic consequences isn't very Lawful in itself. So if it turns out as a plot point later that yeah, the Blood Oath only binds Eugene, I'd look at it as sloppy writing rather than a retcon. I still think the Blood Oath is better supported as binding heirs too. If I had to give numbers, I'd say 95/5 in favor of heirs being bound. After all, any dramatic word could be used if all that was wanted was a fancy name, but there's a whole book named with the English idiom of referring to 'Family' as 'Blood.' The argument added 5% to the not-Roy-binding odds.
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2016-08-14, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
I always did find it odd that the wording of the Blood Oath only bound Eugene explicitly, and that the other Oath spirit we've seen has family already in the afterlife, and yet Eugene (who's seen a bunch of other waiting oathspirits) seems convinced that Roy will be bound by it too and the Deva never contradicts that idea. I think that The Giant may have just worded the oath a little imprecisely without realizing it.
I am: Neutral Good: -2 chaos, -21 evil and 15 balance!
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2016-08-14, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
Could be just "If you die trying- you get in" again - with Violet, like Eugene, giving up, but Violet's family (until one succeeded) kept dying trying, which is why they're in and she's not.
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2016-08-14, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
I am: Neutral Good: -2 chaos, -21 evil and 15 balance!
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2016-08-14, 12:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
I don't think he worded it imprecisely for what he was trying to do. I think when Eugene said "I didn't know it would keep me out of the afterlife or be passed down to my descendants," that was supposed to be genuine, not a case of, "He was lying about what he'd explicitly said previously." He took an oath that spoke of vague dire consequences for breaking it and assumed those consequences would be less than they actually are. Kind of the way he assumed there would never be consequences he'd care about for making his disinterest in everything about his son but the wizard that son would one day be obvious.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2016-08-14, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
The deva did not lie. But her statement there had to do with whether Roy was Good and Lawful enough to get in. He has a spotty record, so it's the thing that puts him over the top. Her one statement on the oath is in the previous strip: "It's not a problem for us."
Now this assertion you have a problem with is, I think, something I said earlier in this thread:
Despite what was said when they let Roy into Celestia, that's the real reason he got in while Eugene did not.Curated Thread: Gazetteer of the Stick
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2016-08-14, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-08-14, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
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2016-08-14, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-08-14, 09:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2016-08-14, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
I have a theory that Eugene is no longer outside the gates of Celestia. No strong evidence, but if the other oath spirits are no longer visible to him, maybe it's because he's been gently nudged to another afterlife, and another part of the demiplane where there are no oath spirits.
Just a thought...
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2016-08-14, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-08-14, 09:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-08-14, 09:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2016-08-14, 10:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
You're bringing this on yourself, Pungeon Master.
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2016-08-14, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2016-08-14, 10:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
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2016-08-14, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2016-08-14, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
Wait, he was just bored? That actually explains a lot.
Also, if you think about it more, ending the world wouldn't be so bad if the dwarves didn't go to Hel.I'm a Lawful Good Human PaladinJustice and honor are a heavy burden for the righteous. We carry this weight so that the weak may grow strong and the meek grow brave
— The Acts of Iomedae, Pathfinder
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2016-08-15, 01:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
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2016-08-15, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-08-15, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
For one thing, in such a plan you are quite likely to lose your hat.
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2016-08-15, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
I do not see where the lying is.
My interpretation was always that Roy's behavior towards the oath, in this case, by dying trying to fulfill it, is relevant to judging Roy's fitness. But that does not necessarily mean that how Roy is judged fits neatly within Eugene's understanding and expectations of the Oath. The Deva is not required to educate Eugene and Roy. It is not even clear that Celestia is required to adhere to the letter of the Oath at all.
It might be a lie of omission if the Deva's incomplete description were likely to manipulate Roy into something he would not otherwise do anyway. But the Deva is literally sitting with Roy's file in front of her, and thinks she has a pretty good gauge of what kind of person Roy is. Is she somehow required to explain to Roy, "Hey, you can ignore this Oath thingy if you ever go back?" (if that were the case). I did not know the afterlife is required to precisely correct misconceptions about the living world, especially when Roy probably understands the gist of what is going on by being waved forward.I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
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2016-08-15, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2016-08-15, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1048 - The Discussion Thread
I don't see that as a lie.
Keeping his word by attempting to fulfill an oath that somebody else made out a sense of responsibility for his father's mistakes is Lawful, especially if it gets to the point of dying out of this sense of responsibility.
Originally Posted by Lawful
Trying to fulfill an oath because it helps him save the world from an Evil world-domination type who murders out of boredom, and also because someone Roy dislikes is kept out of eternal rest until the oath is fulfilled, is Good, especially if it reaches the point of dying in attempt to save the world and the population of a city.
Originally Posted by Good
"Your son is getting in because he died in the process of attempting to fulfill the oath" is not a lie because Roy attempting to fulfill this oath is both a Good and a Lawful thing. The Celestial already made a case that Roy could have easily been put in another afterlife, but his dying act (attempting to fulfill the oath) was incredibly Good and Lawful, and that was what secured his spot in Celestia. It's not a lie if it's completely true.Favorite sports:
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