Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

[tomandtish]

*No Minbari ever has married or mated with an alien? Ever? Seems like a bit of a stretch?

and later....

True B5 has always avoided this...even with ''all aliens are humans in rubber masks'' and ''look like human males/females''. Still, it would happen....so the idea that it has ''never'' happened is a bit odd.

Actually, is it? Remember Delenn has been altered. Do we know if Minbari even CAN mate with humans if they are unaltered? There are certainly some biological differences...

"Do you have any idea why I started getting these... odd cramps?"

And you get the impression that isolationism (or aggressive expansionism) are more the norm that any sense of community. Remember this quote about B5 itself and why it is important...

"Of course it is. For the simple reason that no one else will ever build a place like this. Humans share one unique quality: they build communities. If the Narns or the Centauri or any other race built a station like this, it would be used only by their own people. But everywhere Humans go, they create communities out of diverse, and sometimes hostile, populations. It is a great gift and a terrible responsibility--one that cannot be abandoned."

Looking back, for whatever reason cross species mating/marriage seems to be almost non-existent. Delenn and Sinclair are arguably the first two mixed race people we see/meet, and they do it through technology. David Sheridan (whom we don't actually see/meet in the series) will be the first born through biological means.

So there are some who seem to enjoy certain recreational time with people of other races (G'kar especially, although that may have been as much a strike at Londo as anything else), but no real indication that cross species mating is remotely common. And since Minbari seem to be a bit snobbish, it's not at all surprising that they haven't.

Also an aside: Someone saying it has never happened is not the same as it never having happened. After all, Minbari also never lie. So this could also fall into a few categories:

1) It's never happened before.

2) It's happened a few times, but they've never heard about it, so believe it has never happened before. (No one knows WHY that one Minbari takes a two week trip to Narn every year....).

3) It's happened, but is so disturbing that it's one of those things that HAS NEVER HAPPENED, until Delenn went very public with her relationship. Therefore hers is "the first".

[Thufir]

But in-universe the ''head doc'' is not exactly ''on the command staff'',

Except he explicitly is? The command staff consist of Sheridan, Ivanova, Garibaldi and Franklin. Whether he ever actually gives commands in a non-medical context is immaterial. He is on the command staff, if there is a meeting of the command staff he will attend it and be part of the decision-making process of the command staff. What about this is unclear?

[Darth Ultron]

Except he explicitly is? The command staff consist of Sheridan, Ivanova, Garibaldi and Franklin. Whether he ever actually gives commands in a non-medical context is immaterial. He is on the command staff, if there is a meeting of the command staff he will attend it and be part of the decision-making process of the command staff. What about this is unclear?

Everything? You can watch dozens of episodes where poor Doc Frankiln does not even show up, and plenty of ones where command stuff is going on. Yet no sign of Doc Franklin anywhere. A good half of the show time poor Richard would just sit in the back, until someone said ''oh, a character in the show got a wound...quick call Richard and tell him we need Doc Franklin for a quick ten second scene where he will say ''get this guy to med lab!''. Did Doc Franklin have station security codes when they rebooted the station after breaking away from Earth? When you see the captain making a big, non medical command decision, how often has he even talked to Doc Franklin? Even when he shows up for ''command'' meetings he just mostly gets to be the Cabbaglehead guy who asks questions for the audience.

[Algeh]

This week, we'll be discussing:

• Racing Mars
• Lines of Communication
• Conflicts of Interest

Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

[Darth Ultron]

Racing Mars

Franklin and Marcus arrive on Mars; Sheridan and Garibaldi have another confrontation.

It's nice how the folks on Mars are like ''what Shadow War?" and ''what is a Ranger?''

Things that don't Make Sense

*Wonder why Doc Franklin and Marcus don't ask the cargo ship pilot about Jack?

*So Doc Franklin and Marcus have been traveling on ships in cargo holds for two weeks, and you wonder what they have been doing for food and water. A person needs a lot of both to stay alive.

*Bit odd that the B5 satellite TV has a ''movie channel'', a ''sports channel'' and an ''adult channel''. But ISN is not the ''news channel''. So would there not be a Starz movie channel, a Star sports channel and so forth?

*So, again, Sheridan treats Garibaldi like they are all in Earthforce.

*So Mars is under siege and an embargo and so forth....but married couples still go their on vacation?

*So Mars has a lot less gravity then Earth....yet, it always seems to be just like Earth normal.

*Wonder what foods B5 can't grow?

*So Ivonva makes the ''open warrant '' remark to the smugglers...like she could (or would) just call up Earthforce?

*So the Mars resistance did not get a clear signal from B5? But somehow Jack did? Jack would have needed all the personal data for the fake ID cards, right?

*So Captain Jack has a huge, stiff 5 x 10 glossy picture of his daughter? We just barley have real photos left in 2017....

*So one punch at Sheridan and security is everywhere? Were they hiding nearby?

*Everyone just glosses over the alien that takes control of humans....

*And everyone just glosses over the assassination attempt. Like....Earthgov, that does not like aliens, got a mind control alien somewhere/somehow, and then sent that agent to kill the Number One on Mars? Should this not raise a couple of red flags?

*Wonder why Doc Franklin does not mention he has seen aliens like this before...

Final- C, Overall, this episode got the job done, but it wasn't an amazing or griping episode.

[factotum]

Going to try and make my summaries rather shorter since I don't think anyone's reading them. Anyway:

Racing Mars: Franklin and Marcus make it to Mars and contact the resistance, but find their contact (Captain Jack) is under control of one of the Keepers we've already seen on the Centauri regent. It nearly results in their deaths--the good Captain gets away, but commits suicide by grenade in a transport tube. Meanwhile, Sheridan and Garibaldi come to blows, and three mysterious men tell Garibaldi he needs to do something before Sheridan's cult of personality ruins "the cause".

Thoughts: I don't really understand why Franklin was sent on this mission to Mars, honestly. He's not really cut out to be a spy, and the only thing I can assume is that they needed him there to be able to identify the creature they shot off Cap'n Jack's back.

Lines of Communication: Delenn is tricked into visiting the Drakh by a fellow Minbari who thinks they can help in the upcoming war between the religious caste and the warrior caste. Apparently warriors have already indirectly killed religious caste by throwing them out into the polar cold, despite the law that a Minbari will never kill another Minbari. Once the Drakh finds out it's her, though, they attack, and the White Stars only just escape into hyperspace. Once there, Delenn commands them to go back and they destroy the Drakh fleet to the last man. On return to B5, Delenn tells Sheridan she must return to Minbar to sort out the looming civil war there.
On B5, Sheridan makes Ivanova the face of the "Voice of the Resistance"--a channel that will broadcast in competition to ISN, trying to counter their lies. On Mars, the Resistance agree to follow B5's orders, and Stephen gets his jig on with the resistance leader.

Thoughts: Quite ironic that Marcus tells Franklin to "Touch passion. Don't walk away when it calls you by name." when we know of his unrequited passion for Ivanova--really should have taken your own advice there, pal. Oh, and the Drakh is quite possibly the worst SFX you'll ever see on B5--I think they realised the alien suit the actor was wearing looked absolutely ridiculous and tried to cover it up with copious motion blur, but it just made it look worse if anything.

Conflicts of Interest: Ivanova goes to Epsilon III to get a power boost for their broadcast, only to find Zathras there. Ah, but this isn't the Zathras who went into the past in "Babylon Squared", it's another member of the family--all called Zathras, but pronounced differently.
Zack takes Garibaldi's identicard, PPG and so on that he never turned in when he quit. He later realises Garibaldi has multiple identicards and cancels the others as well (it's unclear why he couldn't have just done that to start with). Garibaldi is given his first assignment by Wade, and finds out that the person he's protecting is Lise, the woman he lost many years ago. She's apparently now married to William Edgars, a very rich man indeed. During their meeting the next day things go south, Garibaldi tries to get them away but his identicards no longer work, so they have to go through a panel in the ceiling. He realises they're being tracked by telepaths, so tells them they're going to Bay 3 to make them think that, then takes them somewhere else--he tells them to get fake ID and get off the station while he heads off to Bay 3 to intercept the chasers. Security get there first, but the men all bite down on poison capsules. William Edgars is impressed with Garibaldi and invites him to Mars to work for him.

Thoughts: I kind of wonder how this would have worked in the original timeline where Sinclair didn't leave after season 1, because he'd known Garibaldi a lot longer than Sheridan has and thus ought to realise he's acting like a completely different person.

[factotum]

*So Mars has a lot less gravity then Earth....yet, it always seems to be just like Earth normal.

*Wonder why Doc Franklin does not mention he has seen aliens like this before...

- Same applies to B5. If you look at where C&C is on the outside of the station, it's very close to the middle and thus ought to have much lower gravity than the outside edge of the station, but we never see any sign of low gravity in people there.

- Has he? I don't recall where Franklin has seen a Keeper before?

[Darth Ultron]

Going to try and make my summaries rather shorter since I don't think anyone's reading them. Anyway:
Thoughts: I don't really understand why Franklin was sent on this mission to Mars, honestly. He's not really cut out to be a spy, and the only thing I can assume is that they needed him there to be able to identify the creature they shot off Cap'n Jack's back.

I think this is mostly Production: Poor Doc Franklin has nothing to do on the show. Of course this has all ways been a problem with the character. Someone gets a paper cut, sure have Doc Franklin run in and say ''get this person to med lab!", but that is it. If it is not medical, he is not really needed. Sure you can throw him a tiny subplot of an underground telepath railroad or stim addiction or going walkabout, but none of that is part of the main plots or the arc.

- Same applies to B5. If you look at where C&C is on the outside of the station, it's very close to the middle and thus ought to have much lower gravity than the outside edge of the station, but we never see any sign of low gravity in people there.

- Has he? I don't recall where Franklin has seen a Keeper before?

Yea, gravity...like languages, is one of them ''well just ignore it'' things in Sci-Fi.


Doc Franklin did not see a ''kepper'', but the sure are a lot like them ''history aliens'' form a season or so ago. Where Marcus ''Captain Jack'' like friend joined them.

[Daimbert]

They are being read, at least by me ...

Thoughts: I don't really understand why Franklin was sent on this mission to Mars, honestly. He's not really cut out to be a spy, and the only thing I can assume is that they needed him there to be able to identify the creature they shot off Cap'n Jack's back.

He used to hitch rides on various human and alien ships when he was younger, so he's more suited for making that kind of trip than anyone else on the command staff except MAYBE Garibaldi, who is certainly on the outs at this point. Also, pretty much everyone else on the command staff is far better known than he is. From what I recall, they need someone who can be identified as a member of the command staff to work with the Resistance, so it can't just be Marcus. Thus, Franklin who is a) a member of the command staff, b) less well-known than the other members of the command staff, c) not as vital to any part of the actual fight as the other members of the command staff and d) someone who has done those sorts of trips before gets the nod.

Thoughts: Quite ironic that Marcus tells Franklin to "Touch passion. Don't walk away when it calls you by name." when we know of his unrequited passion for Ivanova--really should have taken your own advice there, pal.

Actually, that's WHY he says it: he encourages Stephen to seek passion with someone he is attracted to who is attracted to him because, at least right now, the object of his passion isn't attainable. So when someone can attain that passion, he wants them to go for it.

Thoughts: I kind of wonder how this would have worked in the original timeline where Sinclair didn't leave after season 1, because he'd known Garibaldi a lot longer than Sheridan has and thus ought to realise he's acting like a completely different person.

It also would have made it more poignant, because they had all of that history and so it would be a bigger betrayal. Garibaldi actually sounds reasonable most of the time when he goes after Sheridan, and it's easy to imagine him simply never really trusting him, and the messiah thing being the last straw. I suppose it adds to the surprise. But I really think it would have worked better swapping Garibaldi out for Ivanova here, given that she was far closer to Sheridan than she was to Sinclair and so the betrayal would have worked. Also, Bester would appreciate the irony of using someone who hated the Psi-Corps to save it, and also having her being a telepath as extra leverage if he needed it.

Then again, the Psi Corps trilogy novel where Garibaldi is obsessed with tracking Bester down wouldn't have worked anywhere NEAR as well with Ivanova ...

[factotum]

But I really think it would have worked better swapping Garibaldi out for Ivanova here, given that she was far closer to Sheridan than she was to Sinclair and so the betrayal would have worked. Also, Bester would appreciate the irony of using someone who hated the Psi-Corps to save it, and also having her being a telepath as extra leverage if he needed it.

That does sound like it would have been an interesting development, but it wouldn't really have fitted in with the whole Marcus unrequited love for Ivanova mentioned earlier. Also, Ivanova is naturally a more prickly, less easy-going personality than Garibaldi, so it might be even harder to tell she'd been suborned!

[Daimbert]

Also, Ivanova is naturally a more prickly, less easy-going personality than Garibaldi, so it might be even harder to tell she'd been suborned!

The loyalty to Sheridan would be what sells something being off, though, as if you give her the interview where she talks about how she isn't sure about Sheridan, at that point Sheridan's sense of betrayal would have meaning.

[Darth Ultron]

Lines of Communication

Franklin and Marcus meet with the resistance leaders on Mars; Delenn learns about strife on her homeworld.

"We are not leaving'', by Deleen is a nice bit. As most Sci Fi (Star Trek) has the good guys all ways running from a fight, it's nice to see a character more aggressive.

Things that don't Make Sense

*Winding himself up like a cheep watch? They even still have wind up watches in 2261?

*So last episode Mars was having problems getting or sending signals to the rest of the universe....but now Doc Franklin makes a call no problem?

*Why does Doc Franklin have to say don't call back, would not B5 all ready know this?

*Doc Franklin transmits a video, so home no one in Earthforce see it and identifies him and figures out he is not on B5...

*Sheridan makes the point of having just one news channel is never a good idea. So why is there just an ISN? Why no StarFox News?

*Is it not a bit odd for the Warrior Caste to not want to fight? You'd think they would be more like ''a fight? Sure we will go to war!"

*Wonder what vague alien forces Marcus is talking about?

*So the Mars Resistance is a bunch of Classic Cells, right? Is it not a bad idea, and wrong to have ''all the leaders'' of the Resistance meet?

*The Mars Resistance does not seem to have any extra security, when like a day ago an alien monster possessed a trusted and loyal member and tried to assassinate Number One.

*Does the Ye Old ''Minbari do not kill Minbari'' really not apply if a Minbari say just abandons someone at the south pole and ''lets the elements kill them?"

*So the Drac don't seem to care about names...but they know Deleen's name....

*Deleen sure is suddenly a master military strategist....but maybe Sheridan has been coaching her?

*Guess the Drac mothership is unarmed...but why would it be?

*Wow, the A.I. on the White Stars is pretty amazing. Lenaer just tells 'it' to skin dance' and it does it..somehow.

*Or did Lenear write a program in like 30 seconds?

*Considering the size differences, it sure is odd that White Star Two blows up the Drac mothership with like a three second beam weapon.

*So the Drac, at first, want to ally themselves with the Minbari. The Minbari? Did they not know the Minbari opposed the Shadows and fought them in the Last Shadow War?


Final- C, much like the last episode this is a lot of set up. The Drac seem like a new enemy, but their out of focus thing is a bit annoying.

[factotum]

*Sheridan makes the point of having just one news channel is never a good idea. So why is there just an ISN? Why no StarFox News?

*Does the Ye Old ''Minbari do not kill Minbari'' really not apply if a Minbari say just abandons someone at the south pole and ''lets the elements kill them?"

*Guess the Drac mothership is unarmed...but why would it be?

*Considering the size differences, it sure is odd that White Star Two blows up the Drac mothership with like a three second beam weapon.

*So the Drac, at first, want to ally themselves with the Minbari. The Minbari? Did they not know the Minbari opposed the Shadows and fought them in the Last Shadow War?

- Bandwidth requirements, maybe? It's never made too clear in the show how long-range communication is done, but if you assume the bandwidth available for FTL comms is fairly limited, having only one channel that broadcasts across all the Earth colonies isn't too much of a stretch. There might well be other news stations on Earth itself, but we wouldn't ever see them because the series isn't set on Earth.

- Well, clearly there are a lot of Minbari who think that yes, this *does* count as killing other Minbari, which is pretty much why there's going to be a civil war soon unless someone does something.

- Modern-day carriers don't have much in the way of armament other than their planes, and we've already seen the same idea used in B5 before (the Raider carrier in season 1 didn't appear to have any guns on it, it was just a means of carrying fighters through hyperspace), so I don't really have a problem with the Drakh following that approach.

- I don't find that odd at all. As I've mentioned before (and will no doubt mention again) the original White Star was capable of taking down a Shadow battlecrab on its own when it diverted all its power to its main gun, and while the Drakh have some Shadow technology, it's doubtful that their ships are as durable or as dangerous as Shadow vessels.

- I don't think the Drakh ever intended to truly ally with the Minbari. "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer" applies here--they wanted to appear to be on the Minbari's side in order to destroy them from within. That plan changed once they found out Delenn herself was with the White Star fleet, because I'm sure they thought that killing her would leave no-one to stop the upcoming Minbari civil war. Maximum mayhem for minimum effort on their behalf, it's a very Shadow-like tactic.

[tomandtish]

*Guess the Drac mothership is unarmed...but why would it be?

- Modern-day carriers don't have much in the way of armament other than their planes, and we've already seen the same idea used in B5 before (the Raider carrier in season 1 didn't appear to have any guns on it, it was just a means of carrying fighters through hyperspace), so I don't really have a problem with the Drakh following that approach.

- I don't find that odd at all. As I've mentioned before (and will no doubt mention again) the original White Star was capable of taking down a Shadow battlecrab on its own when it diverted all its power to its main gun, and while the Drakh have some Shadow technology, it's doubtful that their ships are as durable or as dangerous as Shadow vessels.

Factotum is exactly correct. Modern day aircraft carriers do not carry the same level of arms that their previous counterparts did. The weapons they do carry are primarily anti-missile, and some limited anti-air missile defenses. But actually in a ship to ship slug fest (taking planes out of the picture), a WW2 carrier could probably sink a modern one.

I've actually had the advantage of being on one of the modern ones (Theodore Roosevelt) in 1991 since it was commanded by my uncle. Impressive as heck, but they are not designed for shooting.

[Darth Ultron]

Conflicts of Interest

Garibaldi is hired for a job that requires protecting his former lover.

I really doubt Wade did not know about Garibaldi and Lise, I'll bet it was another test.

Things that don't Make Sense

*Again, Sheridan the rogue pirate rebel, is all about the ''regulations'', as if B5 was still an Earthforce station.

*I guess this muddles the waters more as B5 security has military issue weapons, so they are more military police?

*Wonder how Epsilon 3 sends power to B5? Or was everyone talking more about broadcast signal power? So like B5 transmits the signal to Epsilon 3 and they have a Very Large Array and re-transmit it?

*One wonders what ''space'', literally, is between the borders of the races in the galaxy?

*It seems a bit odd the computer knows 72 people got off the ship and only 71 checked in. Would this not set off some sort of alarm?

*The same is true with the unauthorized entry.

*And did Lise have a fake Identify Card when she came to B5 on the ship? Or is there a record of her going to B5? And if she had a fake card...why could she not just get off the ship with it?

*One wonders why the secret meeting is in Down Below, aka the easy place to have an ambush.

*When does Wade think Garibaldi was unarmed? The thugs come up...and shoot. Even if Garibaldi had a gun, he could not have done much.

*Wonder why Wade is not armed? He seems like the type that would have and need a gun.

*The thug blasts through the door, with a nice light show and red sparks...but he just has a pistol PPG?

*Wonder why the Classic Air Vents Big Enough to Crawl Through don't have alarms in them?

*Oh, and remember when the computer could detect shots fired? Wonder why it does not do so here?

*So the telepath thugs detect the ''bay three'' thought from way up in the air duct, when they did not have line of sight? Because Wade and Lise were broadcasting so loud?

*One wonders why all the Cloak and Dagger was done with Lise? Sure Edgars is just paranoid, but so what if B5 knows anything about anything. It is not like B5 sends a daily security report to Earth or anything, right? It is a rogue rebel station.

Final-B, This episode did a lot to move along the situation with Garibaldi. We've seen him floating around the station, hiring out his services, but despite his declarations, it never really seemed like a long-term situation. Now he's getting into himself into something that could be huge...

[Jallorn]

*Again, Sheridan the rogue pirate rebel, is all about the ''regulations'', as if B5 was still an Earthforce station.

Okay, this keeps coming up: Sheridan is not a rogue pirate rebel. Sheridan is a rebel only insomuch as you believe that his opposition of Clark is illegitimate. Sheridan's entire action is based on the premise that Clark and his supporters are in violation of the Earth Alliance constitution and that it is illegal to follow his orders. Sheridan is acting in defense of the Earth Alliance and Earthforce itself. Of course he still wants things run by Earthforce regs. As far as he's still concerned, except as necessary to maintain station operation, he is still Earthforce.

[Darth Ultron]

Okay, this keeps coming up: Sheridan is not a rogue pirate rebel. Sheridan is a rebel only insomuch as you believe that his opposition of Clark is illegitimate. Sheridan's entire action is based on the premise that Clark and his supporters are in violation of the Earth Alliance constitution and that it is illegal to follow his orders. Sheridan is acting in defense of the Earth Alliance and Earthforce itself. Of course he still wants things run by Earthforce regs. As far as he's still concerned, except as necessary to maintain station operation, he is still Earthforce.

I know the show has the Wacky Idea that the main characters are Good and All Ways right to the viewers at home anyway. And sure Clark is seen as Bad and Evil.

But still a rebel is a rebel, even if they are ''right''....but they are not just ''right'' as they are a rebel.

And as the show will point out in a couple more episodes: What Sheridan did was still wrong, even if it was right too.

Like say your the Captain of the USS Babylon Five, and a new president comes into office. you don't like the new president, and as soon as they do something you don't like, you break away and say your independent. You then keep the USS Babylon Five in international waters. And you tell the crew to ''just follow all the regs and laws''. So sure everyone does...but they don't ''have too''. By the ''regs/laws'' the captain is not all powerful and can do anything...but in real life they are.

[Jallorn]

I know the show has the Wacky Idea that the main characters are Good and Always right to the viewers at home anyway. And sure Clark is seen as Bad and Evil.

But still a rebel is a rebel, even if they are ''right''....but they are not just ''right'' as they are a rebel.

And as the show will point out in a couple more episodes: What Sheridan did was still wrong, even if it was right too.

Like say your the Captain of the USS Babylon Five, and a new president comes into office. you don't like the new president, and as soon as they do something you don't like, you break away and say your independent. You then keep the USS Babylon Five in international waters. And you tell the crew to ''just follow all the regs and laws''. So sure everyone does...but they don't ''have to''. By the ''regs/laws'' the captain is not all powerful and can do anything...but in real life they are.

I don't agree, but that's not the point. Let's say Sheridan was a less scrupulous man who only declared against Clark because, oh, say the Shadows asked him to in exchange for what they promised him. Say, returning his wife. He'd still hold to regulations because that's the basis of his authority, and as long as he can convince the people under his command/control that he really is still acting under the legitimate authority of Earthforce, his job of maintaining that control is a lot easier.

But on top of that, he's not an unscrupulous man, and he's aware that, if all goes well, then someday this war will be over and he and his people will have to reintegrate into the Earth Alliance. Doing things by the regulations helps keep post-war fallout limited. My point isn't that he couldn't do it otherwise, but that it's incorrect to keep bringing it up as if it was some flaw. The characters have both pragmatic and personal reasons to keep to the regs that are well established.

[factotum]

*Again, Sheridan the rogue pirate rebel, is all about the ''regulations'', as if B5 was still an Earthforce station.

*Wonder how Epsilon 3 sends power to B5? Or was everyone talking more about broadcast signal power? So like B5 transmits the signal to Epsilon 3 and they have a Very Large Array and re-transmit it?

*One wonders why the secret meeting is in Down Below, aka the easy place to have an ambush.

*Wonder why Wade is not armed? He seems like the type that would have and need a gun.

*The thug blasts through the door, with a nice light show and red sparks...but he just has a pistol PPG?

*So the telepath thugs detect the ''bay three'' thought from way up in the air duct, when they did not have line of sight? Because Wade and Lise were broadcasting so loud?

- Jallorn just explained why Sheridan is doing what he's doing far better than I ever could. If something like this happened in real life, the entity that breaks away wouldn't just suddenly have no laws and be a simple anarchy, it would follow exactly the same legal framework as it did before because it would *have* to--it's just there would be a different power structure at the top. Over time the laws might diverge from the parent organisation, but there hasn't been time or inclination for that to happen on B5.

- I think that yes, the signal is transmitted to Epsilon 3 and then re-transmitted at greater power. This is pretty much exactly what happened when Sheridan used the Great Machine to create a giant hologram of himself when the station declared independence, after all.

- It's also the best place to have a secret meeting for the same reason--less public, less chance of the authorities seeing something suspicious. Would you rather hold your secret, probably illegal meeting in the middle of Grand Central Station, or in a back alley in a dodgy part of town?

- Yeah, I don't quite understand why Wade had no gun. They couldn't be certain about Garibaldi's ability to protect Lise even if he *was* still armed, after all. Agreed on the PPG, as well-the entire point of using them aboard the station is that they're not prone to penetrating structures and thus won't potentially cause damage to the hull. I suppose it could be argued that the door isn't made of material as tough as the hull is, or maybe the thugs outside set up a small explosive while we weren't watching them?

- Only one episode stated "line of sight" was stated as a requirement for telepathy and it's been disproved this is the case multiple times, so either Lyta was lying there or she lacks some training that would allow her to operate in this way.

[Darth Ultron]

- Only one episode stated "line of sight" was stated as a requirement for telepathy and it's been disproved this is the case multiple times, so either Lyta was lying there or she lacks some training that would allow her to operate in this way.

They mention teleaphy needs line of sight all the time. But maybe seeing someone through an air duct event from 20 feet away counts as line of sight?

[factotum]

They mention teleaphy needs line of sight all the time.

I don't recall any other instance of it? And in any case, it's disproved every time we see a bunch of Minbari telepaths on their beds jamming Shadow ships, because those rooms they're in don't have any windows.

[Leewei]

That line of sight thing bugged me when telepaths became strategically important when fighting the shadow vessels. I finally concluded that the pilot must be so deeply integrated into the vessel that it is effectively their body.

[Darth Ultron]

I don't recall any other instance of it? And in any case, it's disproved every time we see a bunch of Minbari telepaths on their beds jamming Shadow ships, because those rooms they're in don't have any windows.

The show is all over the place on this. Generally when they need to ''limit'' telepaths for some plot reason they have the Line of Sight limitation. When they are busy advancing another non telepath related plot, they forget all about it.

A couple episodes from now Lyta will stand on the surface of Mars, look up a couple miles and see the tiny ''dots'' of the Earthforce Destroyers, not be able to see the teleptahs inside each ship, but still send the telepathic activation signal and ''hold it all together''.

I guess the telepaths in the Shadow War all had windows or screens to look out of.....that we just did not see.

[factotum]

I recall a Larry Niven story (I forget the name) with a character called Gil the Arm, so called because he had a weak third telepathic "arm"--he could pick up glasses with it in lunar gravity, use it to feel things, etc. However, the main limitation on its power was his own imagination, so when he was standing in a room with a holographic image of the Moon's surface projected onto it, he was able to use his power to reach into the landscape and search for something buried, even though he wouldn't normally be able to use it at a distance of more than a couple of feet.

Maybe B5 telepathy works the same way? So, above the camera shot of the Minbari telepaths on their beds was the same sort of "project what's happening outside" gizmo that Sheridan and Delenn used on the bridge, allowing the telepaths line of sight without actually having line of sight...

[Algeh]

This week, we'll be discussing:

• Rumors, Bargains and Lies
• Moments of Transition
• No Surrender, No Retreat

Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

[factotum]

Rumors, Bargains and Lies: Sheridan appears to have gone off his rocker, ordering a fleet of three White Stars to the borders of Centauri space, blow up some rocks and leave; persuading Ambassador Mollari to deny the White Stars were ever there; and telling the Voice of the Resistance to broadcast that nothing happened in a particular sector of space. However, this all has its intended effect--it looks to the League ambassadors that White Stars are secretly defending Centauri space from an unknown assailant, and they demand the same protection, which was the idea all along, of course.
On Minbar, the civil war has reached the point of fires in the capital city. Delenn speaks privately with her old enemy Neroon, but her own Religious Caste colleagues believe she intends to surrender to their opponents and plan to destroy themselves and their ship to prevent it. Delenn reveals to them that surrender would be pointless, because that way lies worse chaos than already exists; they know they're wrong, but are too late to deactivate their poison bomb. Fortunately, Lennier spotted what they were up to and has disabled the bomb anyway, while almost being killed by it himself.
Neroon then leaves the religious caste cruiser and tells his leader that he has the religious caste's plans, and that victory is at hand...

Thoughts: Honestly, I have no idea why Sheridan couldn't just tell everyone what his plan was. It made for a cute series of misunderstandings, but made him look like someone who is arrogant and out of touch, just ordering things that he knows will be done regardless of how much sense they make. For someone who is supposedly all about people questioning their orders to be sure they're legitimate, it's a very odd attitude.

Moments of Transition: The Minbari capital is mostly in ruins and the warrior caste leader (Shakiri) has given the religious caste an ultimatum: surrender, or he'll end the war by destroying the city. Delenn agrees to the surrender, and Neroon advises Shakiri they should accept the surrender in the Temple of Varenni, where disputes were resolved before Valen and the Grey Council. Turns out this is all part of Delenn's plan--she insists they should go through the ritual that was used to settle disputes before Valen, which basically means the leaders of the warring castes must stand in the pool of light under the Starfire Wheel and sacrifice their lives--whoever does so is the leader the Minbari people need. Delenn calmly steps into the fire, but Shakiri refuses to. Delenn is about to die when Neroon runs into the light, hands her out, and screams that he is religious caste before being obliterated.
This means the Religious Caste win the war, and Delenn reforms the Grey Council. This time, though, it has two religious, two warrior, and *five* worker caste, since the new Council should work for the people, not the other way round. The central spot of light around which the nine council members meet is reserved in memory of Neroon, and for the One who will come.
Lyta can't get work as a telepath because she's not affiliated with Psi Corps. Bester learns this and arrives on-station to try and get her back in the fold, offering her a role as a "deep cover" agent but requiring her to hand over her body to the Corps on her death, since he knows the Vorlons have altered her. She refuses this, but then Zack comes to tell her she needs to be moved into smaller quarters--with the Vorlons gone she has no income. He also asks her to scan Garibaldi without his knowledge, but she refuses that as well. She goes to see Garibaldi to see if she can work for him, and he agrees, but William Edgars calls him and tells him to cancel the arrangement, because apparently he doesn't trust telepaths. So, Lyta goes back to working for Psi Corps, since it's the only way she can earn money.
Finally, Ivanova shows Sheridan footage of an Earthforce destroyer decimating a convoy of unarmed transports carrying wounded refugees, and Sheridan says it's time to start striking back against Clark. Any crew willing to carry out an order like that are war criminals and deserve everything they get!

Thoughts: the whole Lyta situation is cobblers. She's the most powerful telepath the side of light has, and their best protection against Bester and his shenanigans, and she's being treated like something they found on their shoe on a hot day. As for Zack bringing her the news about the smaller quarters, and *then* asking her to illegally scan Garibaldi--what the heck did he expect to happen? Frankly, this is all set up to make Bester look like some sort of mastermind, but it only works because the good guys are absolute idiots.

No Surrender, No Retreat: Most of this episode is the lead-up and battle to retake Proxima 3. Other than that, Garibaldi leaves the station for Mars, swearing never to return, and G'Kar and Londo somehow agree to sign a joint proclamation that both their races will support Sheridan. (The bit where G'Kar initially refuses and pours the drink back into the bottle is masterful, as always with those two).
As for the actual battle: not much to say, a fleet of White Stars takes on six Earthforce destroyers and wins. One is destroyed, one runs away, and of the other four, one is allowed to leave, one stays to defend Proxima 3, and the other two join Sheridan.

Thoughts: The battles in the second half of this season annoy me. The problem is that the White Stars really shouldn't have as much trouble as they do taking down Earthforce destroyers--the White Stars are far faster and more manoeuvrable than Omegas, and comfortably match them for firepower. I'll repeat what I've pointed out before, that White Stars can match a Shadow ship one-on-one, yet we're supposed to believe they struggle in a similar matchup against the best Earth has to offer? I know that they needed to make Earthforce a credible threat or there would be no tension here, but surely they could have done that by having most of the White Stars destroyed during the Shadow war and having no replacements available due to the Minbari civil war and the Vorlons having gone? It just bugs me, and it did when I first watched it 20 years ago as well.

[tomandtish]

Okay, this keeps coming up: Sheridan is not a rogue pirate rebel. Sheridan is a rebel only insomuch as you believe that his opposition of Clark is illegitimate. Sheridan's entire action is based on the premise that Clark and his supporters are in violation of the Earth Alliance constitution and that it is illegal to follow his orders. Sheridan is acting in defense of the Earth Alliance and Earthforce itself. Of course he still wants things run by Earthforce regs. As far as he's still concerned, except as necessary to maintain station operation, he is still Earthforce.

I know the show has the Wacky Idea that the main characters are Good and All Ways right to the viewers at home anyway. And sure Clark is seen as Bad and Evil.

But still a rebel is a rebel, even if they are ''right''....but they are not just ''right'' as they are a rebel.

And as the show will point out in a couple more episodes: What Sheridan did was still wrong, even if it was right too.

Like say your the Captain of the USS Babylon Five, and a new president comes into office. you don't like the new president, and as soon as they do something you don't like, you break away and say your independent. You then keep the USS Babylon Five in international waters. And you tell the crew to ''just follow all the regs and laws''. So sure everyone does...but they don't ''have too''. By the ''regs/laws'' the captain is not all powerful and can do anything...but in real life they are.

I don't agree, but that's not the point. Let's say Sheridan was a less scrupulous man who only declared against Clark because, oh, say the Shadows asked him to in exchange for what they promised him. Say, returning his wife. He'd still hold to regulations because that's the basis of his authority, and as long as he can convince the people under his command/control that he really is still acting under the legitimate authority of Earthforce, his job of maintaining that control is a lot easier.

But on top of that, he's not an unscrupulous man, and he's aware that, if all goes well, then someday this war will be over and he and his people will have to reintegrate into the Earth Alliance. Doing things by the regulations helps keep post-war fallout limited. My point isn't that he couldn't do it otherwise, but that it's incorrect to keep bringing it up as if it was some flaw. The characters have both pragmatic and personal reasons to keep to the regs that are well established.

Whether he's a rebel or not depends on where you stand. To Clarke and his forces, of course he's a rebel. As far as they are concerned, forget rebel, he's a traitor.

But from Sheridan's point of view, he's acting in legitimate fashion against illegal orders and against an illegal government. He has no reason to "act" like a rebel because he doesn;t see himself as a rebel. To him, HE'S the legitimate one. So it's perfectly believable that he keeps it as close to normal as possible.

Thoughts: The battles in the second half of this season annoy me. The problem is that the White Stars really shouldn't have as much trouble as they do taking down Earthforce destroyers--the White Stars are far faster and more manoeuvrable than Omegas, and comfortably match them for firepower. I'll repeat what I've pointed out before, that White Stars can match a Shadow ship one-on-one, yet we're supposed to believe they struggle in a similar matchup against the best Earth has to offer? I know that they needed to make Earthforce a credible threat or there would be no tension here, but surely they could have done that by having most of the White Stars destroyed during the Shadow war and having no replacements available due to the Minbari civil war and the Vorlons having gone? It just bugs me, and it did when I first watched it 20 years ago as well.

JMS comments on this in response to some questions...

"It seems to me that the White Stars (particularly in the numbers I perceived in this Ep) should have been able to deal with the Earth ships like lamb to a slaughter."

Yeah, if all you want is to slaughter fellow humans and officers; if you want to try to minimize the body count of your fellow officers, who you want to eventually side with you, it's more difficult, you have to keep the kid gloves on...which endangers you in the long run.

"were these White Stars tired or something? I would've expected that a couple of them could just go slice-slice, sever the rotating sections on the EA ships and have 'em for breakfast."

Sure, if all you're interested in is slaughtering the opposition...they were designed for "destroy"...when you have to pull your punches to avoid just going in and killing EVERYthing in sight...which will only work *against* you in the long run, it becomes more difficult.

I'll agree however that it feels a little uneven in that they didn't do a good enough job of making it seem like they were struggling BECAUSE they were holding back.

[factotum]

I'll agree however that it feels a little uneven in that they didn't do a good enough job of making it seem like they were struggling BECAUSE they were holding back.

You can say that again...during the battle for Proxima 3 a pair of White Stars is flying directly at the front of an Earthforce destroyer, which naturally fires at them, destroys one, the wreckage of which then crashes into the front of the destroyer and severely damages if not destroys it in turn. So, we're supposed to believe the White Star crews did that in an attempt to reduce casualties? How about they *not* approach the enemy from the vector where their heaviest weapons are, and at such speed you're pretty much guaranteed a collision if you lose control of your craft?

Anyway, if JMS had thought about that while he was writing the actual episodes (as opposed to trying to justify it after the fact) he would have had Sheridan say something to the effect of "Try not to kill these guys", which I'm pretty sure he never does.

[Darth Ultron]

You can say that again...during the battle for Proxima 3 a pair of White Stars is flying directly at the front of an Earthforce destroyer, which naturally fires at them, destroys one, the wreckage of which then crashes into the front of the destroyer and severely damages if not destroys it in turn. So, we're supposed to believe the White Star crews did that in an attempt to reduce casualties? How about they *not* approach the enemy from the vector where their heaviest weapons are, and at such speed you're pretty much guaranteed a collision if you lose control of your craft?

I'll comment on this too, but there is the Reality Side:

I'm pretty sure most Sc-Fi Writers Don't script the battle scenes. They just write ''put cool space battle here'' in the script. So this leaves it up to the Special Effects People. And this type of person, while a great Special Effects Person is not a military tactical genius about sci-fi space battles: they just make cool looking special effects. So they get a job that is just ''make a space battle'', so they do. To them making a ''space battle'' is just like ''have a fork and spoon fight'' or ''have talking dogs play poker'' or anything else they might just ''make'' as part of a job.

And even if the writer did add some notes about the Space Battle, again they are not a military tactical genius about sci-fi space battles: They just write.

And in most cases the people part of the show is shot...and all the special effects are added way, way, way later. So even if say JMS does get to see the effects once they are done...they are way out of context. He is shooting episode 44, and they are like ''this is the space battle for episode 38''.

And the Space Crash is a cool special effect, likely cost a billion dollars, so they had to ''use it'', even if it makes no sense.

[Inchhighguy]

Hey, I have a Babylon Five question

What is the space station like on the inside?

I get the one end where the space ships come in is like a hanger, but what about the rest?

Like the inside is a giant garden forest with lakes and fountains and roads and buildings, right? Like we see out the window in the captain's office or like we saw in that one show when the cab blows up and the captain floats in the air.

If that is what it is like on the inside, why do we not see it on the show? Is it just the budget? Like they could not afford a road and some trees?