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2022-11-11, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
AFAIK, there isn't a specific ruling on how multiple rules that change how your alignment auras interact, because there aren't a lot of rules like that. But since Harper Paragon's modification comes from a class feature an exalted feats' from a general rule covering several feats, and since the Harper Paragon requires exalted feats to enter, it feels like HP's class feature is more specific than the exalted feat rules, and specific trumps generic.
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2022-11-11, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
I mean:
HarPar AoG = class levels + levels in any other classes which give AoG
Exalted feat AoG = levels in any classes, period
For me, it looks like HarPar gives AoG - rather than sets it
I mean: if they really wanted for HarPar to reduce the existing AoG intensity - they kinda should be more direct about it
Personally, I'm sure they just forgot [exalted] feats give AoG too...
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2022-11-11, 09:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Obviously, but this isn't a thread for dysfunctional intent, but for dysfunctional rules. And I don't think there's any distinction between "giving" and "setting" an aura.
It sounds like you're saying that detect good (and similar spells) detects the strongest aura provided by various features a character has, which suggests that features that give a character no alignment aura would do nothing, since there's still a positive aura to detect. I feel that this interpretation is in error, and not just because it makes this one example ridiculous. Characters don't have "multiple alignment auras"; they have abilities which influence how one specific spell (and derivative effects) responds to them.
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2022-11-13, 02:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Sword of conscience deals variable amounts of wis and cha damage to evil creatures. Like other spells keyed off detect evil, it has a chart that inflicts more damage to certain types of creatures. Footnote 1 says elementals, undead, and outsiders have their own entry on the table. Undead do not have their own entry on the table. So they just take the small amount of damage like any other generic evil creature.
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2022-11-13, 02:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
I don't think that's exactly right: undead actually are listed in the table, they're just listed with elementals, for some unknown reason. Under the "Evil Elemental" section of the table, the 1d6 damage bar lists "2 or lower or undead", which means...I guess undead always take 1d6? Maybe? Or they count as elementals for this, and they scale the same way...? BoED is weird.
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2022-11-13, 02:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Oh hey you're right.
You know what I think it is? I think "or undead (HD)" was actually supposed to be left aligned under "evil elemental," which is why there's that huge gap of white space underneath it but they screwed up and put it under "2 or lower" instead. I believe the intent was probably for undead to take damage like evil elementals. Still a little weird.I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
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2022-11-13, 07:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Another thing about that spell:
Originally Posted by Sword of Conscience
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2022-11-13, 10:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
I think the writer was probably thinking of penalties and didn't understand it was discrete from damage.
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2022-11-14, 02:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Sometimes the rules state what the rules already state, and BoED was in a period of change from 3.0 to 3.5: I can totally understand putting a redundant rule in there for clarity and to make sure it holds up to potential reworkings of ability damage.
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2022-11-14, 04:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Agreed. Even more probable considering this is basically the same table as Detect Evil, only with Evil Elemental added in the second line. Up to the "Some characters who are not clerics may radiate an aura of equivalent power. The class description will indicate whether this applies." which makes not much sense in this case but probably indicates that paladins get damaged as much as clerics, and that the spell is supposed to run on aura strength. 2d8 Wisdom to a paladin might very well render them insane.
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2022-11-21, 12:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
It's, technically, possible to scribe a scroll of a Dread Word spell (Book of Vile Darkness).
Originally Posted by Book of Vile DarknessOriginally Posted by Book of Vile DarknessLast edited by ShurikVch; 2022-11-21 at 12:36 PM.
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2022-11-21, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Even if a spell scroll is a full description of the somatic and verbal components of a spell (dubious assumption), ultimately the Dark Speech still has phonemes, right? "Make these specific sounds in this order" should work as a description of the verbal component, it's not a transliteration because it doesn't try to preserve meaning.
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2022-11-23, 03:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Well, firstly: transliteration communicates not what the word means, but merely how it sounds (more or less accurate)
Secondly, the Dark Speech is highly magical: say, you will die (without any save and regardless of protective magic) if try to pronounce the Dread Word without actually casting the Dread Word - thus, I wouldn't be so sure about the "Make these specific sounds in this order"...
One more dysfunction - Crawling Eye invocation (Complete Mage):
You can't cast most invocations or spells through the eye, but any spells or invocations that affect your sense of sight such as devil's sight, all-seeing eyes, or detect magic function through the eye as though it was still attached.
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2022-11-23, 04:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Then maybe in the scroll's instructions there's a big obvious gap where some word of power is clearly supposed to go, and anyone who knows dark speech can fill it just as easily as an English-speaker can fill the gap in the sentence "The angry man's mouth was slightly open, showing how he was gnashing his ____."
That doesn't explain why a caster unfamiliar with dark speech can use the scroll, but honestly I've got half a mind to say they can't: the rule that you can cast spells from scrolls is trumped by the rule that Dark Speech, specifically, kills untrained speakers.
Semi-related: it's kind of funny how this spell and the Power Word line can be cast perfectly well with the Silent Spell feat applied.Last edited by Inevitability; 2022-11-23 at 04:05 AM.
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2022-11-25, 07:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
I am bothered by the fact that some wondrous magic items require a permanency spell during creation (notably, the broom of flying and carpet of flying). This, for two reasons:
Firstly, the great majority of permanent magic items don't need such a spell, the process of making them a magic item in the first place is sufficient to make them last indefinitely. Why would a couple need permanency on top?
And secondly, permanency is one spell that have an XP cost! Except this cost is variable, depending on the level of the spell usually targeted. What is this value for a magic item creation? And should it be paid with every casting of the spell, i.e. once per day of crafting? It takes 17 days to make a broom of flying, and up to 60 days for the largest carpet of flying. Are we supposed to pay 2500xp per day in addition to the normal crafting cost?Spoiler
DM: At the end of the meal, the innkeeper is bringing you the cheese plate. Roll for initiative.
PC: Excuse me, what?
DM: I said, roll for initiative. They like their cheese really ripe in these parts. They have the ooze type.
"Excuse me, but... is it a GOOD or a BAD thing when the DM can't help bursting into laughter every time he hears the phrase 'level-appropriate encounter'? No, just curious..."
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2022-11-25, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
You pay no extra XP cost for Permanency (how you even calculated that "2500 XP"? )
Creating Wondrous Items:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
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2022-11-26, 06:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Spoiler
DM: At the end of the meal, the innkeeper is bringing you the cheese plate. Roll for initiative.
PC: Excuse me, what?
DM: I said, roll for initiative. They like their cheese really ripe in these parts. They have the ooze type.
"Excuse me, but... is it a GOOD or a BAD thing when the DM can't help bursting into laughter every time he hears the phrase 'level-appropriate encounter'? No, just curious..."
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2022-12-13, 01:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
(PF) has a bit of an inconsistency regarding the Bolt Ace gunslinger archetype and gun rarity categories.
In a "No Guns" campaign, guns don't exist. You can still use the Bolt Ace archetype of the gunslinger class, which uses crossbows instead of guns.
In a "Very Rare Guns" campaign, guns exist but the gunslinger class doesn't. So you can't be a Bolt Ace.
In other words, in any given campaign world, there can be Bolt Aces before guns are invented. But as soon as a single gun exists anywhere in the world, they lose their powers until firearms become sufficiently common that ordinary gunslingers emerge.Last edited by Bucky; 2022-12-13 at 01:03 AM.
The gnomes once had many mines, but now they have gnome ore.
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2022-12-13, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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2022-12-13, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
It's listed as tables but all the spells on it use the same formula* you can reverse engineer. The spell in the PHB (pg. 260) does leave additional spells to be added up to the DM and discoverable through the spell research rules.
*X = spell level of target spell to be made permanent. Minimum 1.
Minimum CL = X + 8
XP cost = X*500
I borrowed the formula from a previous GitP thread from over a decade ago. I've checked a good number of them and found only one outlier so far in gust of wind which was the right level in 3.0 where the spell also exists.Last edited by goodpeople25; 2022-12-13 at 05:12 PM.
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2022-12-16, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Yup, I thought everybody was aware of that. It's pretty obvious when you look at the permanency tables.
Okay, this one I'm not sure that it's really dysfunctional, or if I'm missing something:
The spells persistent blade and Grazt's long grasp both create something capable of attacking foes at a distance (a dagger of force in the first case, the caster's disembodied hand in the second). The spells also specify that they can be used to flank enemies.
Problem, in both cases the created attacker is likely of tiny size; tiny creatures have a natural reach of 0ft; opponents with a reach of 0ft cannot flank.Spoiler
DM: At the end of the meal, the innkeeper is bringing you the cheese plate. Roll for initiative.
PC: Excuse me, what?
DM: I said, roll for initiative. They like their cheese really ripe in these parts. They have the ooze type.
"Excuse me, but... is it a GOOD or a BAD thing when the DM can't help bursting into laughter every time he hears the phrase 'level-appropriate encounter'? No, just curious..."
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2022-12-19, 01:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Pathfinder's Pack Flanking feat does literally nothing under normal circumstances due to a dysfunction.
One of its prerequisites is "ability to acquire an animal companion".
Its benefit applies "When you and your companion creature have this feat..."
You can take the feat just fine, but your animal companion can't because it can't have its own animal companion, so it does nothing.
There are situations where an animal companion can get it as a bonus feat ignoring prerequisites. But it's dysfunctional if you try to simply include it in your build.The gnomes once had many mines, but now they have gnome ore.
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2022-12-24, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
We already have bleeding oozes as a dysfunction in Pathfinder. But it's worse in 3.5. Crossposted from another thread, several sources of bleeding can make anything bleed regardless of whether that thing has blood to lose:
Incorporeal creatures appear to be immune because bleeding isn't a magic weapon, though.Last edited by Bucky; 2022-12-24 at 10:03 PM. Reason: paraphrase the spoiler
The gnomes once had many mines, but now they have gnome ore.
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2022-12-24, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
While we're on the subject of oozes, they're also not immune to the sickened or nauseated conditions. Apparently they can feel stomach distress even without stomachs.
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2022-12-24, 09:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
I guess that's what happens when the meal's too basic.
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2022-12-26, 08:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
Little fun fact: they tried to fix it for the Bat:
Originally Posted by 3.5 accessory update for Monster Manual II
Fleshraker's Wounding Weapon is (Su), and Superior Spiked Chain may be magical?..
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2023-01-02, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
The Dragon Totem feat says this:
Originally Posted by Dragon Totem
Originally Posted by Dragon Rage
Originally Posted by RCCreator of the LA-assignment thread.
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2023-01-02, 04:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-01-02, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
If so it would be because the feat says the total is 15 while raging which implies stacking but doesn't specifically mention that it does.
And that type of wording (instead of gain resistance blank X) as a specific rule can cause it's own issues/dysfunctions since those general rules not only disallows stacking but allows the highest value to apply.
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2023-01-02, 09:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules
idk that specific feat says its 15 (10 from it and 5 from its prereq feat) i dont see how it would cause dysfunction. it works how it says because it says it does. yes it ignores the general rule, but it effects nothing but when you have both feats because the general rule covers all other cases except this extremely specific one.