The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[loky1109]

Easy -0 LA.

[Debatra]

Knew I was forgetting something. Sorry about not posting for so long.

And honestly, my first reaction to your DM was to say to go ahead and post it since you put in the work. I just got distracted by something and never sent the reply.

But yes, a clear -0. I'll get back on this timorrow.

[Debatra]

Glitterhaunt

Size & Type: Medium Fey (Earth)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 12, 17 (Large), 29 (Huge)
Speed: 30', Burrow 30'
Ability Scores: Str +10, Dex -2, Con +10, Int +4, Wis +0, Cha +10 - Net +32, one penalty
Natural Armor: 12
Natural Weapons: Four Primary Gemlances (1d6, 20/x4)
Skill List: Climb, Diplomacy, Hide, Knowledge (Dungeoneering, Geography, Nature), Listen, Sense Motive, Spot
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Common, Sylvan, Terran)
CR: 8
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0

Immunity to acid and fire, resist cold 10, DR 10/Cold Iron, and SR19 (non-scaling but still relevant at this level); as well as being intelligent and speech-capable in a humanoid shape, cap off a pretty decent chassis.

It can Earth Glide just like an Earth Elemental, including how it reacts to a Move Earth spell, but the Glitterhaunt can also glide through metal.

It can create a Prismatic Flash once per day, emulating a Prismatic Spray in a 20' radius burst. Save DCs are Con-based.

It can also generate an explosion of crystal shards once per 1d4 rounds. The Shardburst deals 6d6 slashing damage to everything in a 40' radius burst, with a Con-based Reflex save for half.

Finally, it can Absorb Metal. Once per round as a free action, the Glitterhaunt can either make a touch attack or attune their body to absorb the next forged metal to touch them within the next round. In either case, the object takes 4d6 sonic damage. If the object is destroyed, it instantly shatters and the pieces are absorbed into the Glitterhaunt's body, healing them for the object's maximum HP. It's not specified that this also negates the relevant attack, but it is implied.

I looked up the HP of common metal items, and while the GP to HP ratio is overall pretty good compared to healing potions; there's a bit to be desired in the storage category.

By strict RAW (though only looking at D20SRD, because I am not going splatbook diving for this), the best bang for your buck is going to be a Haversack full of spears. 2gp and 6lbs for a "two-handed hafted weapon" that has 10hp. Though a reasonable DM could limit you there and say that you only get the healing for the metal portion of the weapon and cut it down to "light blade" territory (2hp). If that logic is enforced, your options are far more limited.

Though in either case, you may want to just have a blacksmith forge you some one-inch cubes of iron or steel (or have your Wizard buddy Fabricate them), which would have 30hp. Maybe cut those cubes into 1/3-inch thick slabs for a consistent ten, since that's closer to an average 4d6 roll. One pound of iron is worth 1sp, and according to gigacalculator.com's metal weight calculator, this would get you about three and a half one-inch cubes (or 12 1x1x1/3 slabs if you actually had 1.021lbs of iron)(...or 131 0.3x0.3x0.3 inch cubes with 1.003lbs).

Also potentially worth nothing, ask your DM if it will work with the daggers generated by a Gauntlet of Infinite Blades (MIC 101, 6,500gp) for infinite out-of-combat healing (2hp at a time).

...I may have gotten a little too into this, but at least I had fun doing it.

[loky1109]

I sure it isn't -0, but I don't know, +0 or even +1. Should think.

[Remuko]

12 HD? CR 8? Special traits and qualities seem okay but nothing amazing even for level 8. Yeah I think this is -0 and would still be -0 even with a few less HD.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The glitterhaunt isn't completely awful. The stat adjustments are really good and well-distributed, and Earth Glide is definitely a good thing to have as a PC. Going through earth and metal alike would make for an interesting scout. But the offensive capabilities are just too lacking. 6d6 isn't good damage, prismatic spray is only 1/day and the natural attacks, though good, don't mesh well with the Fey type, despite the Str bonus. I guess that's my problem: it's a Fey trying to be an Outsider through Str and Con, but it just lacks an Outsider's SLAs to be really relevant. I guess with 8 or 9 RHD (maybe even 10) I would have said +0, but right now put me at LA-0.

[loky1109]

Well, I had time to look this creature closer. I think it's +0 LA.

[No brains]

I suppose one part of the consideration for its LA is if we consider its metal absorption to be a free action once a round or if we update it to a swift/ immediate action. The flexibility of being able to heal every round while still keeping a swift action might be valuable, especially if you consider that the damage from the attack only has to be the last little bit that destroys the object.

Theoretically, your best move is to carry some severely beaten up big blocks of iron with you. Then on each of your turns, you finish them and get healed for the item's full hp. Is there a rate of healing that's ever cost-effective for its weight? Is it ever worth it to carry an 10lb small-size category cube of iron to have a way to instantly refill your hp? By your math, it looks like iron can be pretty hp dense at a good size, especially if you cheat down its hp earlier. It's like having Fast Healing MAX.

[Debatra]

I suppose one part of the consideration for its LA is if we consider its metal absorption to be a free action once a round or if we update it to a swift/ immediate action.

Actually, I hadn't thought of that. When were swift and immediate actions introduced again? This was published in May of 2004.

[danielxcutter]

I was under the impression that it's a 3.5e thing, but I could be wrong.

[Bavarian itP]

According to Complete Champion pg. 4, Swift Actions were introduced in the Miniatures Handbook and Immediate Actions in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. The MinH is First Printing October 2003, the XPH April 2004.

I knew it would pay off to bring my books (in pdf, of course) to work!

[remetagross]

This monster is not awful. It's still an LA-0 to me, because it cannot do that much stuff offensively for an ECL 12 PC.

[H_H_F_F]

With another type, this would've gotten me to really think. As is, there's a lot of bruiser energy on a half-bab chassis, and I don't feel like what's left justifies a positive LA. LA -0 from me, unfortunately. I think it's a very cool monster.

[emulord]

With burrow, resistances, SR, decent Con,Str,Chr for 12 HD, I feel that its very tanky, but lacking in offensive power. At 9 or 10HD it would be +0 clearly, but for now you need to have some way to utilize the tankiness to help your team. Paladin is pretty frontloaded, so having a high Chr is nice here. A burrowing rogue would be amazing because you can hide almost anywhere, but unfortunately the Dex is too low here. Knight or Marshal's abilities also keying off charisma while wanting to be in the thick of things is another good choice.
At level 12 you're going to want to spend your wealth to get flying or speed boosts so you can be in the right place of the battle to help your allies. Also, touching enemies' weapons is better than most forms of Sundering available to PCs without even needing Improved Sunder

Going out on a limb and saying +0, but a very low one.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Can't think of anything interesting to say about the glitterhaunt.

Because having a non-spellcasting stupid dragon sure makes a good epic-level challenge.

To be fair, a Shadow of the Colossus-level dragon does sound like the kind of thing epic adventurers should be fighting. The problem isn't the concept, just...the way D&D's mechanics (and especially high-level spells) trivialize big dumb brutes.

However, the most interesting ability of the Drak is its gaze attack. Just straight-up 6d6 Dex damage per round to everyone in a 120ft radius unless the person watching makes a Cha-based Fort save, and the Dex damage becomes Con damage if the creature already has 0 Dex. The problem, like all gazes, is how party-unfriendly it is, which will make the Glacierdrak refrain from using it as often as it could.

All in all, no amount of ability damage is worth starting so deep into epic, see you soon.

To be fair, that is a lot of ability damage. Glancing at the Abominations, I'd say about half of them have Dexterity scores below 20, and the other half are only 25 so 6d6 Dex damage still has a decent chance to paralyze them instantly.

There are, of course, two problems. First, most abominations have Fortitude save bonuses of 30+, which means they basically never fail a save unless the glacierdrak really pumps its save DC. This wouldn't be a problem if it dealt half damage on a successful save, but it doesn't. The second problem, though?

Abominations are...not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage.

Plenty of epic-level monsters have no special defense against ability damage, but plenty of others do. And plenty have silly silly saving throw bonuses, too. (Including the glacierdrak, as it happens.)

And that's the problem. The drak has some cool abilities, but way too many HD for them to be viable. A 44th-level wizard can cast quickened meteor swarm. A 44th-level rogue can balance on clouds. A 44th-level fighter has...um...23 bonus feats, I guess?
Point is, a friendly-fire gaze attack that could be gnarly when it works isn't enough to compete, even with a halfway-decent bruiser chassis. After all, fighters get a halfway-decent bruiser chassis and 23 bonus feats, and they're one of the weak classes.

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, a Shadow of the Colossus-level dragon does sound like the kind of thing epic adventurers should be fighting. The problem isn't the concept, just...the way D&D's mechanics (and especially high-level spells) trivialize big dumb brutes.

It’s what I call the Tarrasque problem - creatures that are basically big piles of stats and damage with nothing else. The Big T has higher physical stats than even great wyrms but is nearly to completely defenseless against things even single-digit level adventurers have. Like flight. Although the Tarrasque does have a couple abilities that mean defeating it isn’t totally effortless aside from the Allip thing.

[Darkholme]

I just came across this project recently. What do you guys use to decide which books to do? Is there a queue for after you finish these web monsters?

The MM1 Ogre looks far more reasonable under your values. That was the one I looked at to see how you guys do this.

Shame Wizards didn't take such a reasonable approach to setting the LAs.

[Metastachydium]

It’s what I call the Tarrasque problem - creatures that are basically big piles of stats and damage with nothing else. The Big T has higher physical stats than even great wyrms but is nearly to completely defenseless against things even single-digit level adventurers have. Like flight. Although the Tarrasque does have a couple abilities that mean defeating it isn’t totally effortless aside from the Allip thing.

(Also, the earliest a PC can normally kill the thing is somewhere in the range of Warlock 11. The creature you are actually looking for is the Mountain Giant,^{MM2, of course} an absolute joke that is, nevertheless, very big and has a lot of hp, which, in turn, made WotC think it's an epic level threat.)

I just came across this project recently. What do you guys use to decide which books to do? Is there a queue for after you finish these web monsters?

No queue as such. People propose stuff and if something's popular and makes sense, it gets a treatment.

[danielxcutter]

(Also, the earliest a PC can normally kill the thing is somewhere in the range of Warlock 11. The creature you are actually looking for is the Mountain Giant,^{MM2, of course} an absolute joke that is, nevertheless, very big and has a lot of hp, which, in turn, made WotC think it's an epic level threat.)

MM2 has plenty of cool ideas, but the CR assignment is probably the worst of any book. And not just over-CR'd; the Clockwork Horrors have at-will Disjunction and yet none of them break CR 15 IIRC.

[Beni-Kujaku]

MM2 has plenty of cool ideas, but the CR assignment is probably the worst of any book. And not just over-CR'd; the Clockwork Horrors have at-will Disjunction and yet none of them break CR 15 IIRC.

Oh! Oh! Are we talking about the Elemental Sybils (yes I'm using the french name for these guys‚ it's way better than "weirds") again? 9th level spells‚ regeneration with no bypass‚ prescience and excellent stats. Absolutely a moderate challenge for a party of four level 12 characters.

[Tzardok]

Elemental Sybil? Good term, and it divorces them from the water weirds

[danielxcutter]

Oh! Oh! Are we talking about the Elemental Sybils (yes I'm using the french name for these guys‚ it's way better than "weirds") again? 9th level spells‚ regeneration with no bypass‚ prescience and excellent stats. Absolutely a moderate challenge for a party of four level 12 characters.

Oh god, I thought I was having a psychotic break when I saw their CR. I swear either the devs were deciding CR by throwing literal darts or they did this on purpose to screw over DMs who weren’t too familiar with the system. I mean, that second possibility is why trap feats exist so…

[Debatra]

-0 - Remuko, Beni-Kujaku, remetagross, H_H_F_F
+0 - loky1109, emulord

-0 takes it. Blood Golem coming up.

And unlike the in-universe-poorly-named Blood Elementals, these things are actually constructs.

[H_H_F_F]

-0 - Remuko, Beni-Kujaku, remetagross, H_H_F_F
+0 - loky1109, emulord

+0 takes it.

Huh. Did you mean -0, or am I missing something?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Oh god, I thought I was having a psychotic break when I saw their CR. I swear either the devs were deciding CR by throwing literal darts or they did this on purpose to screw over DMs who weren’t too familiar with the system. I mean, that second possibility is why trap feats exist so…

Don't be ridiculous. Those exist to screw over players who weren’t too familiar with the system.

Well, that or the designers initially thought three HP was a good use of a feat, and didn't want to admit they were wrong when people came back with data from characters who weren't first-level wizards.

Huh. Did you mean -0, or am I missing something?

The actual post seems to say -0, so it's probably just a typo.

[Debatra]

Blood Golem

Size & Type: Large Construct
Space/Reach: 5'/10'
HD: 8
Speed: 30' (can't run)
Ability Scores: Str +10, Dex +4, Con -, Int -, Wis +0, Cha -10 - Net +4, one penalty
Natural Armor: 10
Natural Weapons: Two Primary Slams (1d8 plus Blood Drain - 1d4 damage, 1d2 Con)
Skill List: N/A
Body Shape: Any (see text)
Speech (Languages): No (understands its creators)
CR: 7
WotC LA: -
Our LA: __

These creatures are blind, but have 60' Blindsight. They have irrelevant DR 10/magic. Well, at least these don't have to be asterisked for going into a permanent frenzy.

Their liquid form allows them to take on any shape they wish. While this is labeled as "Alternate Form (Su)", it really is just the shape. You explicitly do not get any abilities or traits of your shape. It is purely aesthetic, and you retain your blood-red color. You are also limited to shapes of your size. At least you probably won't have trouble with body slots, and can maybe even get access to some extra or nonstandard ones. Don't rely on that though, it's very much an "ask your DM" situation.

As many Golems do, the Blood Golem has immunity to any spell that allows for Spell Resistance (or rather, this is what I would assume from a 3.5 conversion instead of the listed "immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities"), with a few specific exceptions. Repair spells function normally. Fire spells grant a Haste effect for one round per die of fire damage that would have been done. Cold spells work as fire spells do, but Slowing the Blood Golem instead (no save).

"Fun" Fact: It takes about 30 gallons of blood to make a Blood Golem. The text doesn't specify, but going by real life this would take at least 20 adult Humans on average.

[H_H_F_F]

Seems worth noting that there's a Blood Golem featured in this very round of the Villainous Competition.

[danielxcutter]

You know, it’s probably not worth it but it sounds like that Alternate Form ability would let you squeeze through cracks and stuff. And also probably leave your items behind, admittedly.

[Debatra]

Could work for slipping under a door crack or something if all you need is to open it from the other side.

[Metastachydium]

Could work for slipping under a door crack or something if all you need is to open it from the other side.

Meh. Ghaunadans^MComp and Slyths^Und can do the same and more while being vastly more interesting and/or playable. Both come with fewer-to-far-fewer HD too.

As for the rest… It's kinda uninteresting. Defenses are subpar, the stats unimpressive, Blood Drain not something one couldn't get a better version of on a more accessible chassis, and Magic Immunity while strong, as much a curse as it is a blessing. -0 from me.