Sauron vs Voldemort

[Ditto]

EE - I don't think you're understanding the sort of facts that require direct quotation. Saying 'a lot' or 'a few' mumakil can be generally agreed upon. "50,000", for example is a very specific number far beyond the consensus. That requires citation - if not page number, some idea of where it was discussed in the books so we could look it up. You other post lists the impressive list of lands beholden to Sauron, but doesn't give us a base figure to work from to compute the hugetastic end number you provided. If there is some point that I have fielded that requires such documentation (not that I think there is...), then I'd be glad to find something for you. WT has again upped the ante in citation, with the wonderful link to a thorough discussion of relative troop populations.

And Xerses was using human numbers, Sauron can use much more.

Another case-in-point. This has nothing to do with human vs. fantasy scales, it has to do with the size of the population and empire that each force is being drawn from. Unless you have some qualifying statement to make that comment relevant to Xerxes' army, it's best left unsaid.

The movies have repeatedly been dismissed as evidence. Otherwise, several of my earlier points would not have been disputed so strongly. We'll have to get another source for those numbers.

The Elder Wand was created with the purpose of defeating *anyone*.

Apologies on the repeated Dementors comment... you had a typo which I misread. Double goof!

HP ghosts cannot touch things - that's why they aren't relevant to this discussion. I'm aware that LOTR ghosts can, but we're not making that comparison since 1) The Dunharrowers aren't on Sauron's team and 2) The Nazgul aren't ghosts.

1. The nazgul's "Bodies" were destroyed at the River, so they have been killed, they just reform.
2. Were are their bodies? They are only seen in the spirt world, hence they would only have bodies in the same sense ghost would.

I believe your two points somewhat conflict... We see that when the body of a Nazgul is killed, the Nazgul's spiritorwhathaveyou shuffles off the mortal coil and slinks off to regenerate. Thus, when the Witch-King gets killed by Eowyn, the body discorporates and the spirit scoots away. It's like Dracula in the episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Killing him makes him poof... but he gets better. Again, Sauron did exactly the same thing. Ringbearers don't stick around for burials, it seems.

Eowyn. Has. No. Magic. Sword.
(Prove me wrong. Please! With facts! Like, "Her sword is named Snorlax, Bane of Wraiths, forged in the First Age of Smiting" proof.)
Eowyn didn't cast a spell, she was naturally 'magical' insofaras she's royalty. (If you're advocating the 'any woman could have done it' line, you've switched tacks in the argument for killing the Witch-King...) People in LOTR don't really cast spells much. A better way to express it is that she was imbued with the destiny-magic.

Voldemort's tactics have been discussed at great length, EE. I don't know what thread you've been tracking... It usually involves Fiendfyre and leaving, for starters. Wizards make mistakes like in HP5 when they think they're taking candy from witless children, who turn out to be well-trained wit-ful children with access to the same magical arsenal as themselves. You aren't cocky like that when there's an army of orcs over the next hill, you get down to business.

More people, more chances of making mistakes.

You mean like 500,000 people with bows, ready to shoot arrows at anything that moves? That kind of 'more people making mistakes'?

Voldemort's tactics have been discussed at great length, Rutee. When you cast Fiendfyre, you LEAVE. That doesn't require any battlefield control - Fiendfyre will find its own way to have fun. I have also addressed Voldemort's lack of military war experience - he doesn't have it because wizards don't fight with armies, and don't need to. Wizards fight one on one, IF they think it's advantageous to stage a direct conflict. Otherwise, they leave. Apparating to a better position or out of danger altogether is a key strength of Voldemort's team. ("Eep! Huge army! I'm going to rethink this! ::poof::" ...and then they come back later.) If they had to run on foot or even on broomsticks, they'd be in a lot more trouble. Further, a team of Aurors is the match for any regiment of army regulars. There's no need for previous concept of war. In this scenario, there's no need for subterfuge, so they go scorched earth on Middle Earth and destroy everything that moves. You don't need to organize stikes into the Western Front with the 118th when you have wizards around.

[EvilElitest]

Let's see... I'm going to be evil and paraphrase from memory here... but I believe it was the Silmarillion that noted that Sauron was "Only less powerful than Morgoth because he served another." Tolkien's language is, of course, likely more flowery than what I'm using here. It's also worth noting that Morgoth's power diminished because he spent it controlling so many minions.

Both were extremly powerful, but in Raw Power Morgoth was far greater than Sauron, but Morgoth was mad and your right, his power dwinlded by the end of his reign.

That's also where a lot of Sauron's power goes during Lord of the Rings, and it's why, after the fall of Barad-Dur, his orcs and trolls scatter. The more evil creatures of middle earth require and expenditure of will on the part of their owner to keep them in fighting spirit, or at least that's what Tolkien implies.

Makes sense

Read my earlier comment.

I agree, i'm just pointing out that orcs bred and grow much faster than humans.

You're aware the Sauron is/was the Necromancer, right?

I know, that was his identify when hte Dragons destroyed the dwarf kindoms.

EE - I don't think you're understanding the sort of facts that require direct quotation. Saying 'a lot' or 'a few' mumakil can be generally agreed upon.

You said they were no Mumakil, were in reality there were at least 20.

"50,000", for example is a very specific number far beyond the consensus. That requires citation - if not page number, some idea of where it was discussed in the books so we could look it up.

Ok,
The general size of Sauron's host, read two towers, the section in the part two were the WK marches out of Morgal, and the conversations involving Faramir
In Part one of Return of the King, read all the parts from Gandalf arrival at Minis Tirith to the end of the battle of Pelenor fields. The number 300,000 is from the movies, at pelenor fields and 500,000 at the black gate

You other post lists the impressive list of lands beholden to Sauron, but doesn't give us a base figure to work from to compute the hugetastic end number you provided. If there is some point that I have fielded that requires such documentation (not that I think there is...), then I'd be glad to find something for you. WT has again upped the ante in citation, with the wonderful link to a thorough discussion of relative troop populations.

What link. Anyways

I can't do this without a map, but lets presume that Morder is the size of, say Alaska, Harad is about the size of Argentina, but mostly desert, so with a pouplation about half that. Umber is only a City states, but in the books they specifically say that have fifty full sized gallons, twice that many lesser ships. That is mentioned by Denothor, and when Aragorn takes them over. The Black Nudamorians dwell in their own kingdom near the west coast of harad, with small population, but an elite one, knowns for being spell casters or super warriors. Rhun is a nation about the size o think of New York with a realitive pouplation, and teh east is known to be "vast" so i don't really known about that, same with the Varages. Bear in mind, i don't have a map, so this is all realitive.

Another case-in-point. This has nothing to do with human vs. fantasy scales, it has to do with the size of the population and empire that each force is being drawn from. Unless you have some qualifying statement to make that comment relevant to Xerxes' army, it's best left unsaid.

Orcs aren't human, they bred incrible fast, and grow up fast, were other races, are weak, they are over the top in terms of numbers, of nothing to compare.

The movies have repeatedly been dismissed as evidence. Otherwise, several of my earlier points would not have been disputed so strongly. We'll have to get another source for those numbers.

Does anyone dispute this? Because it seems pretty accurate in terms of numbers. If not i have a second way of backing it up, just wait until i get my copy of the book.

The Elder Wand was created with the purpose of defeating *anyone*.

In a wizard duel, in the seventh book they state that the first weilder was murdered in his sleep. And Sauron isn't the type to play fair. Also voldemort is never its rightful weilder.

Apologies on the repeated Dementors comment... you had a typo which I misread. Double goof!

that ok, just one question, how else can you kill Dementors short of that spell? Can it work with swords, just really hard.

HP ghosts cannot touch things - that's why they aren't relevant to this discussion. I'm aware that LOTR ghosts can, but we're not making that comparison since 1) The Dunharrowers aren't on Sauron's team and 2) The Nazgul aren't ghosts.

1. HP ghosts can interact in the phyical world, Peeves throws water ballons out of his hands at the students
2. If LOTR ghost can, and they are similer enough to the Nazgul in terms of

Body/not body, the the effect is the same
I believe your two points somewhat conflict... We see that when the body of a Nazgul is killed, the Nazgul's spiritorwhathaveyou shuffles off the mortal coil and slinks off to regenerate. Thus, when the Witch-King gets killed by Eowyn, the body discorporates and the spirit scoots away. It's like Dracula in the episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Killing him makes him poof... but he gets better. Again, Sauron did exactly the same thing. Ringbearers don't stick around for burials, it seems

I have long sense forgotton the point of this argument

Eowyn. Has. No. Magic. Sword.
(Prove me wrong. Please! With facts! Like, "Her sword is named Snorlax, Bane of Wraiths, forged in the First Age of Smiting" proof.)

Ok, lets break down the Nazgul. What can hurt them?
1. Daylight
2. Fire
3. MAGIC
4. Watching 300 (such a bad movie, it could kill anyone)
Now the Nazgul have been killed by magic before, the river, Aragon's sword, ect (i'm not sure about that acually, did he have it in the book before the attack on weathertop)
now there are two possiblites
1. Once they get hit by magic, then the spell is broken and anything can hurt them.
2. Only someone who strikes the death blow with a magical blade can finish them.
Now the WK and Gandalf had a mini magic duel of wills things when the gate broke (he wins in the movie) and so magic did effect the WK, but he spell was still in effect. Now only women may hurt WK, so merry's blow didn't kill him. Now if the Nazgul can't be hurt by non magical items how could a normal sword hurt him, even if wielded by a women, so Eowyn could have a magical blade (as benifit of royality) or used her fathers (taht we known is magical) that was near by

Eowyn didn't cast a spell, she was naturally 'magical' insofaras she's royalty. (If you're advocating the 'any woman could have done it' line, you've switched tacks in the argument for killing the Witch-King...) People in LOTR don't really cast spells much. A better way to express it is that she was imbued with the destiny-magic.

Frankly, i have no idea what you talking about, could you repeat that slowly?
Voldemort's tactics have been discussed at great length, EE. I don't know what thread you've been tracking... It usually involves Fiendfyre and leaving, for starters.

Sorry, how about Winning tatic, your are hit and run. Can you please just re phrases, because with a thread this long and with us arguign about nickpick details i get the plans confused. Currently, i'm trying to measure up the resources.

Wizards make mistakes like in HP5 when they think they're taking candy from witless children, who turn out to be well-trained wit-ful children with access to the same magical arsenal as themselves. You aren't cocky like that when there's an army of orcs over the next hill, you get down to business.

But the death eaters are dumb in every single battle, they don't learn from their mistakes, so even when well planned, the ones who are admitted to be dumb will make dumb mistakes (Wormtail, the executioner, possible Belatrix, ect) while they are slowly picked off one by one. There are simple to many people for them to fight.

You mean like 500,000 people with bows, ready to shoot arrows at anything that moves? That kind of 'more people making mistakes'?

No, i mean in your hit and run tatic, if that is the one i'm thinking off. The wizard appeart, steal some stuff, cause some damage, however they have to keep track of so many orcs/monsters. It only takes one orc to get a shot off, or the Nazgul who are good shots, one human to get in on time an stab, or on e orc to stab them in the back.

Voldemort's tactics have been discussed at great length, Rutee. When you cast Fiendfyre, you LEAVE. That doesn't require any battlefield control - Fiendfyre will find its own way to have fun.

With so many monsters, and two few of your own men, then plently of the death eaters will make mistakes and die. It takes one mistake

I have also addressed Voldemort's lack of military war experience - he doesn't have it because wizards don't fight with armies, and don't need to. Wizards fight one on one, IF they think it's advantageous to stage a direct conflict.

That is not a good thing you realize, such hit and run tatics will fail because they can't keep it up, they will slowly be bled out.


from,
EE

[WhiteKnight777]

Both were extremly powerful, but in Raw Power Morgoth was far greater than Sauron, but Morgoth was mad and your right, his power dwinlded by the end of his reign.

In the beginning, yes. Morgoth was a Valar, and the mightiest among them. However, as you said, his power dwindled, because he chose to invest it in corrupting and controlling so many other creatures.

[EvilElitest]

In the beginning, yes. Morgoth was a Valar, and the mightiest among them. However, as you said, his power dwindled, because he chose to invest it in corrupting and controlling so many other creatures.

So by the end, Sauron was greater? Makes sense on why he escaped
from,
EE

[WhiteKnight777]

So by the end, Sauron was greater? Makes sense on why he escaped
from,
EE

Sauron wasn't necessarily greater. His level of power and cunning might have been near-equal to Morogth's at the latter's nadir, though he was still probably a bit weaker. From what I recall, Sauron escaped punishment because he played the pity card to the Valar, and they bought it, as they have a distressing tendency to do.

[EvilElitest]

Sauron wasn't necessarily greater. His level of power and cunning might have been near-equal to Morogth's at the latter's nadir, though he was still probably a bit weaker. From what I recall, Sauron escaped punishment because he played the pity card to the Valar, and they bought it, as they have a distressing tendency to do.

I'm talking tatic wise, Sauron was far more cunning that Morgoth but lacked in power and...

what are we arguing about?
from,
EE

[Ditto]

You're not recognizing that the orc archers will be killing scads of their compatriots while trying to hit a wizard who might not even be apparating - an illusion, or some dancing pebbles

Peeves is not a ghost, as has been explained. He's an embodiment of Chaos, just like Dark creatures are embodiments of evil. And I don't believe there is a way to destroy Dark creatures, just banish them. It hasn't been discussed at great length. And thanks for reminding me about some Nazgul weaknesses: Daylight and Fire are pretty stock HP wizard spells.

EE, I fully understand your argument about Eowyn's sword. There is every reason for her to have had such a sword, and it would handily explain various minor points. That said, she didn't. No matter how much it would make sense, she did not have a magic sword. This is not a negotiable point! Tolkien doesn't go out of his way to disguise artefacts and let the reader figure it out. We can only conclude that for some *other* reason, Eowyn killing the Witch-King worked.

Never at any point did I say there were no mumakil. I couldn't care less about how many mumakil there were. I believe you pegged their numbers at something rather more than 20, but it's immaterial.

This link from WalkingTarget spells out the size and reasoning behind his estimates for ME's armies.

Hit and run is how he takes down most of the army. They're not being slowly bled out at all - they're relaxing. This is not a desperate flee, it's strategic retreat ad infinitum until you're down to just the Nazgul and whoever and Sauron, because the hundred thousand orcs are just annoying. Hit and run is a totally viable tactic for small groups to wear down large groups, not vice versa, and has been vindicated by history. Also, the wizards have superior firepower. Most underdogs don't have that going for them.

[EvilElitest]

You're not recognizing that the orc archers will be killing scads of their compatriots while trying to hit a wizard who might not even be apparating - an illusion, or some dancing pebbles

1. Sauron has about a million orcs, and more are being spawned. So i think if about 500 orcs get killed by friendly fire alone, but 8 death eaters die, good trade
2. human are Nazguls are very good archers
3. Sauron's eye can see though illusions
4. Sauron still wins, it jsut takes a while.

Peeves is not a ghost, as has been explained. He's an embodiment of Chaos, just like Dark creatures are embodiments of evil. And I don't believe there is a way to destroy Dark creatures, just banish them. It hasn't been discussed at great length.

The first part i can accept, with a link or page number, but the second part, hell no.

And thanks for reminding me about some Nazgul weaknesses: Daylight and Fire are pretty stock HP wizard spells.

Let me, think, Nazgul are weak toward magic (i don't know what kind, but holy seems good, though patronous won't work) and hate daylight and fire, but bear in mind, they have there own powers, intense fear, that literally drives the target mad. If some death eaters warp in, hear the sheirk, they might simple panick into madness and get killed. They also have their own magics.

EE, I fully understand your argument about Eowyn's sword. There is every reason for her to have had such a sword, and it would handily explain various minor points. That said, she didn't. No matter how much it would make sense, she did not have a magic sword. This is not a negotiable point! Tolkien doesn't go out of his way to disguise artefacts and let the reader figure it out. We can only conclude that for some *other* reason, Eowyn killing the Witch-King worked.

We don't know if she had a sword or if she didn't have a sword. As we don't have the infomation, then we must act on presumption. At best, this means that for Voldemort to kill the Nazgul he needs to stab them with a magic weapon and then have one of his evil chicks finish it was a weapon. possible i admit, but it would be costly and risky

Never at any point did I say there were no mumakil. I couldn't care less about how many mumakil there were. I believe you pegged their numbers at something rather more than 20, but it's immaterial.

I pegged the numbers of the haradrim at around ten thousand, but Mumikul i think were only around 20 ish
[QUOTE]

This link from WalkingTarget spells out the size and reasoning behind his estimates for ME's armies.

Let me check this out.

Hit and run is how he takes down most of the army. They're not being slowly bled out at all - they're relaxing. This is not a desperate flee, it's strategic retreat ad infinitum until you're down to just the Nazgul and whoever and Sauron, because the hundred thousand orcs are just annoying. Hit and run is a totally viable tactic for small groups to wear down large groups, not vice versa, and has been vindicated by history. Also, the wizards have superior firepower. Most underdogs don't have that going for them.

Not fesible. Oh sure you will take a good deal of guys down, but a few question
1. How do they orginize. If they are free lance it is easier, but a lot more will make mistakes
2. Your guys will make mistakes, the death eaters have proven taht they do very stupid things at times, and are overconfident and brash. They will do dumb things and slowly get picked off
3. You tatic does damage, but by the time you wipe out Mordors army, Voldemort will have next to no men himself, and Sauron can breed more orcs
4. There are just two many men for these wizard to keep track off, arrows, spears, bolts flying in every direction, with monsters running around, it will hard to keep track of everything
5. The nazgul can make a decent counter defense, they known magic and are good archers
6. Sauron has evil spellcasters under his control, Saurmon included
7. What about all of Voldemorts none wizard forces? they will be wiped out?
8. Many death eaters will most likely switch sides
9. Were do they guys stay when not fighting, when/where do they reorginize, how do they orginize, who runs what ect?
10. Eventually the orcs will develp counter tatics
from
EE

[EvilElitest]

Oh, and while that link is cool, i'm confused were he got many of these numbers. They seem to be random.
from,
EE

[Tyrant]

Hit and run is how he takes down most of the army. They're not being slowly bled out at all - they're relaxing. This is not a desperate flee, it's strategic retreat ad infinitum until you're down to just the Nazgul and whoever and Sauron, because the hundred thousand orcs are just annoying. Hit and run is a totally viable tactic for small groups to wear down large groups, not vice versa, and has been vindicated by history. Also, the wizards have superior firepower. Most underdogs don't have that going for them.

I thought we were on the neutral plane of battle for this? As in, hit and run can't really work because there is nowhere to actually run to. Running=giving up. About fiendfire, when it is first cast, is there an immediate explosion? Or is it simply a fire that grows and spreads? How large is the initial area of effect? How fast does it spread? How high into the air does it rise? How is it actually put out? These are all fairly important. If the orcs aren't dealt a major blow very quickly (as in, 3/4th of them wiped out in the blink of an eye kind of major blow), all they have to do is continually rain arrows in the general direction of the wizards in staggered shots producing a constant sky full of arrows. There will be no safe place to apparate to. To be on the battlefield in front of them* will equal death. Going above simply puts them in direct confrontation with the Nazgul while Voldy's ground forces are destroyed. Sauron should be more than capable of employing this tactic.

*To be behind them assumes that both sides don't start at opposing ends, which I think pretty much everyone assumes they do start at opposing ends. Also, to be in the thick of the orcs is to beg for a sword to some vital organ.

[EvilElitest]

Just one question, what is this roleplaying game, and these new races
from,
EE

[Ditto]

Neutral plane of battle doesn't mean 'big white void defined by the edge of battle'. It's just terrain not specifically advantageous to either side due to previous residence or excessive familiarity. Hit and run is a perfectly legitimate way to run a war.

EE, those numbers are actually quite well sourced. Even if you disagree with the exact count, they are not 'random' at all.

Sauron's eye can see through illusion, but everyone else on his team cannot. And they'll be shooting arrows on reflex (and immediately, apparently), so there's no time for Sauron to say, "Whoa guys, time out, it's a figment." I don't care how skilled anyone is as an archer; this isn't about hitting a target accurately (which any of them certainly could do), it's about drawing an arrow, pulling it to full draw, and tracking the target - who is no longer there in the time it took you to think "Quick, shoot it!"

There's a whole entry on Peeves on HPL, same area as the previous link. It's well established. And you cannot accept that creatures made of evil itself cannot be killed? That's fine... you don't have to accept it for it to be true. Any suggestions on how to counter the fact that nobody can kill them?

I really don't know what all those numbers about the Death Eaters' tactics are supposed to represent, because they're pretty disorganized... I'll try to reply systematically...
1) How do they organize? They've been operating as a group with a system of instant (if limited) communication for the better part of, what, 40 years? They effectively took over all of wizard Britain. Is that organized enough?
2) Death Eaters are overconfident when there's every reason for them to do so, as I detailed in my last post. Being overconfident is also not the same as 'they will all walk in front of arrows.'
3) Voldemort doesn't really need scads of men as it is... if he's alone in the end, so be it. He has never relied on anyone when it counts, anyway.
4) Weapons flying in every direction? What makes you think they'll be anywhere near this crazy melee action? Why would they stick around in projectile range? Wizards only stand on the battlefield (if even that close) for seconds. Count 'em, one, two, three... that's about it, total.
5) Again, being a good archer isn't important, and 'They know magic' isn't useful. Do they know specifically magic-countering magic? I'm thinking not, since they've been driven off with magic before.
6) Sauron has evil spellcasters of the sort that still hasn't been detailed. You name people, but you don't explain their abilities and their presence in the LOTR timeframe.
7) Non-wizard forces are pretty screwed, in the end. They'll put up a good little fight, but there's no way they're coming out of that alive. They're not meant for big team battles.
8) Some death eaters may switch sides, yes. But that takes time, and (for just one example) the fact that they know Voldemort can always find them OR summon them to his side is a strong deterant.
9) Where do they go when not fighting? Who cares? They set up one of those magic tents, cast a disilluionment charm, a hover charm, protego totalis, repello orcum, the whole shebang, and stay in their Rope Trick til morning. Or Tuesday. The Dark Mark allows instant regrouping.
10) Oh, they'll develop countertactics, will they? I suppose Voldemort will develop counter-counter-tactics in response. That's not an argument.


Fiendfyre is not an explosion, it's a largeish tongue of flame (the initial burst is, say, a lash six feet in length just for a visual cue) but grows exponentially, fuelled even further when it has items to consume. It cannot be put out with any mundane means, which is what the waves of orcs are working with. If one of these ill-identified and -defined casters manages to figure out a way to dispel it (that's granting a lot)... then they have to deal with the twenty other castings simultaneously unleashed in various areas of the miles-square battlefield. The wizards further don't *really* need a safe place to apparate to, since they can just hole up. If they want to stay stationary and defended, then they'll summon a bubble of iron. Or burrow underground. Or go back in the tent.

[turkishproverb]

I had an obvious question though. If the Dementor's sided with Voldermort because he could offer them more in reguard to their love of fear, etc, can we be sure they wouldn't immediatelly side with the demigod upon feeling his influence in the world?

[Rutee]

Voldemort's tactics have been discussed at great length, Rutee. When you cast Fiendfyre, you LEAVE. That doesn't require any battlefield control - Fiendfyre will find its own way to have fun. I have also addressed Voldemort's lack of military war experience - he doesn't have it because wizards don't fight with armies, and don't need to. Wizards fight one on one, IF they think it's advantageous to stage a direct conflict. Otherwise, they leave. Apparating to a better position or out of danger altogether is a key strength of Voldemort's team. ("Eep! Huge army! I'm going to rethink this! ::poof::" ...and then they come back later.) If they had to run on foot or even on broomsticks, they'd be in a lot more trouble. Further, a team of Aurors is the match for any regiment of army regulars. There's no need for previous concept of war. In this scenario, there's no need for subterfuge, so they go scorched earth on Middle Earth and destroy everything that moves. You don't need to organize stikes into the Western Front with the 118th when you have wizards around.

This is why you haven't addressed tactics. *You can not win on neutral ground engaging if your strategy entirely revolves around hit and run* and not all of Voldemort's army is capable of it; Especially some of the more obvious creatures that can't really hide too well, like Giants.

Before you say "Yeah, you can", with historical examples.. Hit And Run as a viable tactic relies on a lot of factors. Your strategy basically has to revolve around either biding time until you can build a larger force (Most rebellions that fight via guerillas qualify) or for your opponent to get sick and tired of paying for the war (Most guerillas fighting against an occupying force rely on this, or both)

If this is some sort of void, then building a larger force isn't a viable option. Neither is forcing your opponent's retreat via costs.

As a tactic, it relies one either pulling the enemy away from a vital point (Say, a rail station in WWI/II), weakening the /real/ target, or it relies on ambush. All you have is "Fiendfyre and disperse". If Voldemort's forces (Not just Death Eaters.. you have to have /something/ there for Sauron's forces to pursue) can in fact, effect an immediate pull out, why can't Sauron's.

Further, the simple fact is that Sauron has experience with asymmetrical warfare. Gondor's /been/ fighting it, going off the LotR Movies. Granted, a squad of evil people on the offense is harder to draw out then the standard.. which is directly attacking something the guerillas care about (Without getting romantic about it.. their supply sources)

Now, you keep mentioning apparation. This isn't familiar territory, and IIRC, Apparation requires a mental image of where you're going. Since this is strictly unfamiliar, that restricts apparation to Line of Sight. Do you know what I would do if I were Sauron, given this? Fog. Lots and lots of Fog. The mobility advantage that only a fraction of the enemy army (the most potent fraction, but a fraction) has has been extinguished. Further, they have to get in range of my force's archers (Yeah, everyone's visibility is reduced.. but full visibility /should/ be an advantage towards spells.. I don't believe they have an effective range maximum). Spread the lines out; If he wants to try Fiendfyre without a good idea of where my troops are, he gets, at most, minimal kills. Because I'm Sauron, and I can't /possibly/ devise a counter to magic, despite the fact that I'm one of the most foremost authorities in magic in my world. (The sarcasm should be self evident)

4) Weapons flying in every direction? What makes you think they'll be anywhere near this crazy melee action? Why would they stick around in projectile range? Wizards only stand on the battlefield (if even that close) for seconds. Count 'em, one, two, three... that's about it, total.

Not if you're fighting an opponent who knows wtf they're doing! I already told you how I'd force them into what is essentially melee. I'd definitely mobilize my mage force if I was fighting people who only really had mages to fight me with (Because I already know my multiple-hundreds-of-thousands army can take the army in the thousands). The second I or they had a counter to Fiendfyre, lift the fog, and let the hunt begin.

You have not addressed tactics, at all, you just spout off the names of a tactic without thinking them through.

[1) How do they organize? They've been operating as a group with a system of instant (if limited) communication for the better part of, what, 40 years? They effectively took over all of wizard Britain. Is that organized enough?
2) Death Eaters are overconfident when there's every reason for them to do so, as I detailed in my last post. Being overconfident is also not the same as 'they will all walk in front of arrows.'
3) Voldemort doesn't really need scads of men as it is... if he's alone in the end, so be it. He has never relied on anyone when it counts, anyway.
4) Weapons flying in every direction? What makes you think they'll be anywhere near this crazy melee action? Why would they stick around in projectile range? Wizards only stand on the battlefield (if even that close) for seconds. Count 'em, one, two, three... that's about it, total.
5) Again, being a good archer isn't important, and 'They know magic' isn't useful. Do they know specifically magic-countering magic? I'm thinking not, since they've been driven off with magic before.
6) Sauron has evil spellcasters of the sort that still hasn't been detailed. You name people, but you don't explain their abilities and their presence in the LOTR timeframe.
7) Non-wizard forces are pretty screwed, in the end. They'll put up a good little fight, but there's no way they're coming out of that alive. They're not meant for big team battles.
8) Some death eaters may switch sides, yes. But that takes time, and (for just one example) the fact that they know Voldemort can always find them OR summon them to his side is a strong deterant.
9) Where do they go when not fighting? Who cares? They set up one of those magic tents, cast a disilluionment charm, a hover charm, protego totalis, repello orcum, the whole shebang, and stay in their Rope Trick til morning. Or Tuesday. The Dark Mark allows instant regrouping.
10) Oh, they'll develop countertactics, will they? I suppose Voldemort will develop counter-counter-tactics in response. That's not an argument.

1: I'm not arguing their organization, so neat, but I thought they just terrorized Britain, not ruled it.
2: You're already being overconfident in dismissing any form of counter or danger that the orcs pose. Why should I believe that the evil people who already run away on their power won't even more drastically underestimate their foes?
3: I find it very doubtful that Voldemort can duel Sauron on anywhere near even ground. He *needs* to bring his individually superior followers with him or he's screwed.
4: Wizards will need LoS to teleport in unfamiliar territory. I already told you how I'd handle that, and I'm not even the queen of evil.
7: Absolutely false. Wizards are in hiding in their world because human nature being what it was, there'd be a fight between magical and non-magical types. And non-magic would win. No. Questions. Asked. Numbers are against them. Killing efficiency is against them (One curse kills one person. One SMG spray takes roughly as long to execute and can kill 4 or 5). Wizards, given preparation, which they'd have, may have impenetrable bolt holes, but having a place to hide can't win a war, and you don't seem to understand that.
8: I thought the Death Eaters voluntarily teleported, not were auto-summoned to their side, or Snape wouldn't have made an effective double crosser.
10: Voldemort has no experience with an army. He will not develop countertactics quickly. Anything he /could/ have gained by studying history, I suspect he didn't, because he has 0 respect for nonmagical types. I don't see him learning how they fight unless they're an immediate threat, and they wouldn't have been when he had what he needed to study. Sauron has experience with guerillas. This is just fairly advanced tech for a guerilla, not a brand new experience for him.

[warty goblin]

OK, here's what we know Sauron is capable of:

1) Countering divine class magic on Numenor. I think this presents a fairly compelling case that magic is not going to phase him much
2) The Lord of the Nazgul is really good at magically sundering stuff. He breaks Frodo's sword, which was made to combat him from across a river into enemy territory. Later he shatters the Gate of Gonder,which had been taking quite a beating earlier. It would seem that breaking a wand would not be much of a stretch, and a wizard without a wand is just somebody with an ego trip. Sure they might be capable of some minor magics, but not combat or apperition. Scratch that wizard. I already said that there could be a case made that the LoTN could in fact teleport ("He turned from the gate, and vanished")
3) Sauron has hordes and hordes of followers. Sure wizards can kill them by the bucket, but with all of that apperating and fiendfyring, they are still not holding ground. Granted, their mobility makes this less important, but it's like trying to win a war with just an air force, it doesn't work. They can destroy lots of stuff, and do tons of damage, but every now and again they will screw up, and every now and again is all that is required here.
4) Fiendfyre is neither artillary nor a magical rocket launcher. It takes significant time to actually become seriously deadly, and it also seems to require fuel (that's speculation, but it didn't really get going until it lit a lot of stuff on fire). Both of these are things that can be used to limit its usefulness. If the wizard lights something on fire, run away. Keep in the open away from woods, or burn the woods yourselves, and so on.
5) Even with the advantage of teleportation, the wizards are going to have a real hard time hiding (didn't Aragorn say "not all the birds are to be trusted"?) so they can't have a permenent base of operations and must continously move around. Even with teleportation, it is strongly implied by the behavior of Voldermort and co. that they like having a secure and comfy place to strike from and return to. Denying them this will be a significant blow. Not fatal or crippling, but still worth noting.

Finally, a little political science of dubious application. Voldermort and co. are essentially terrorists. In all of the reading I've done on this (I took a college course on terrorism, so I'm not an expert, but I'm also not completely ignorant), terrorist movements need to see that they are in fact making some sort of tangible progress to maintain their inertia. If they cannot perform effective actions, moral goes to hell, and people start to desert. Living a hunted and dangerous existance constantly is not something people will subject themselves to unless they feel that it will get them what they want. During the two periods of power Voldermort enjoyed in the HP books, even when he was not in complete control, he remained a very significant threat with the very real potential of managing to seize the reins of power. Without this hope, I don't see the Death Eaters lasting more than five or so years before simply burning out, particularly given Voldermort's less than inspiring leadership style ("You failed, or I'm just feeling pissy! Crucio!")

As I said, I'm not sure how relevant this last bit is since its somewhat out of the realm of usual vs. threads, but I thought it worth mentioning.

[xanaphia]

I vote that everyone puts his opinion in his sig.

Voldemort's Forces:
Death Eaters: Basiacly heavy infantry who can disappear at will.
Giants: Melee killers.
Dementors: Assasins and hard to kill.

Sauron's Forces:
Nazgul: Melee killers, spellcasters, ranged killers, hard to kill.
Orcs: Light infantry. Unlimited numbers.
Uruk-hai: Better orcs.
Wargs: Light cavalry.

Dementors are going to change to Sauron's side, as he is more evil and likes death thins more.

Giants: Useless, as orcs can easily take them from range.

Death Eaters attacking orcs: Sauron can breed orcs faster than 50 wizards can kill them.

[xanaphia]

Also, what's Fiendfyre?

[turkishproverb]

Dementors are going to change to Sauron's side, as he is more evil and likes death thins more.

Thank you! THIS is what I was commenting on earlier.

[Ossian]

LOTR is about small numbers. It's Tolkien, and did not have in mind the whole commercial apparatus, possible RPG conversions, boardgames and miniature games. Armies in the range of hundreds of thousands are nearly impossible, and even orcs have to eat and drink. Also, Middle Earth is big, but the events of LOTR take place in a small part of it. The whole gorgoroth plateau can't be much bigger than sicily, and that gives you a good proportion.

I hnoestly don't remember the description of easterlings, men of nurn and khand, so I'd love to get the source to refresh my memory. When I used Xerses army, I quoted what should have been the real size of it, not herodotus' exaggeration. As for Sauron, let's use what we know as reader's and not the estimate made by a gondorian historian scared to death.

The allied forces of the free people were really small. 4000 from lossarnach managed to reach Minas Tirith and join the 2-3000 left behind by Aragorn, so as to defend it in his absence, and the "10 times greater and perhaps more" thing was estimated on the 6000 at the slag hills before the black gate. Sauron literally emptied Mordor to face them. Yes, there might have been some left at Minas Morgul (but they did not answer the challenge extended by aragorn) and a few scattered haradrims in the ithilien, feinting weakness in ambushes to the Gondorian army, so as to provoke aragorn. There might have been a garrison at Barad Dur, and some more in the various fortresses of the Ephel Duath and Gorgoroth (Durthang and so on), but don't forget that Sauroin was drooling over the idea that Aragorn was carrying the ring with himself and that he would be so stupid as to try and use it against Sauron (he did not think Aragorn was better than Isildur, did he?), o he did not save forces for later, because there would not need to be a later. His Victory "would be instantaneous and total", so why leave a single orc behind? After all, he controls them a bit like the Overmind in starcraft so long as they are in Mordor, so FULL ATTACK GUYS! The ring is in the hands of the red caped guy! Go for the numenorean and take him to me!

Other forces aided him on the side, but they'd not necessarily give a direct help against Voldemort 's army. Saruman had even his own ambitions, and thought he might supplant the Dark Lord, seeing Orthanc as the "Little Barad Dur" (and he was so wrong about that), and he was the most powerful of the Istarion. The Dragons of the northern wastes were provoked by Angmar, and ravaged the north for a couple of years, but by the time of the War of the Ring the are all sound asleep somewhere in the pak north of Angmar. Even with the ring, Sauron did not have the authority to order Dragons, since in Middle Earth it all seems to boil down to the fact that you have power over whatg you create, either directly or through an item. Since dragons wer made by Melkor, Sauron can't ask them anything.

Still, I must say that whatever force he could muster, must have been around 100.000, all inclusives, even cats, dogs, the cook and the priest. Pretty impressive since they are all mindless mass murderers who do not question orders and live for the thirst of blood. Add to this the Dementor's instantanous side switching (they'd feel like home at Barad Dur, sweet !!!!), and there you go.

O

[Ditto]

Man, these things are getting long again…

If we want to keep going into the real-world parallels on this, that’s fine… I spent the better part of my college career studying spycraft, rebellions, and counterinsurgency. The single most important factor in guerrilla war is having outside aid. There is no successful example of a guerrilla army winning without some sort of external backing. (Situations like Castro and Cuba aren’t strong ones, because it was far more Batista’s collapse than Castro’s victory, and the fact that he advertised democracy. That’s why the situation was never reproduced, despite attempts all over South and Central America.) The need for outside aid stems from the fact not that the guerrillas are few, but that they are weak. They need the big guns and more people to wield the big guns. Your observations are correct that far. In this case, though, Voldemort does not need big guns - he is big guns. Guerrilla warfare aims to draw folks away from heavily fortified positions for the same reason – they are few and therefore too weak to engage in open conflict. Not the cast with Voldemort. It’s like saying a nuclear warhead is a weak opponent because there’s only one of them, even thought it would vaporize the entire army if gathered in one place.

To Warty Goblin: Again, I’ve studied this rather a lot. Terrorists indiscriminately kill civilians. Guerrillas go out of their way not to. Neither really applies to Voldemort’s cohort in 7th book mode, because they’re building a fascist regime. They’re much closer to guerrillas than terrorists, but either way they’re not fighting an overt war. I don’t see this campaign lasting 5 years, though, so fatigue spanning that length of time shouldn’t be a concern. Deserting isn’t a viable option in this scenario, though defecting as admittedly a possibility. I’ve come up with some reasons why they wouldn’t defect, but that’s a fine point to consider. Definitely some good thoughts, on the whole.

Fog would be very clever, but it limits the archers in the same way. If you want to launch a hail of arrows into the fog blindly, that’s your prerogative, but at that point the Death Eaters’d best hole up for a while and rely on even one Fiendfyre launch to wreak some havoc (and burn off some fog, too) before moving to the next step. They can wait right in the middle of the battlefield, if they want to. Impregnable bubbles are nifty like that. And they can apparate away to anywhere they’ve already been from inside, so Sauron might spend a lot of time busting it open to find nothing.

Still waiting on the names and descriptions of this elite anti-mage team Sauron apparently has.

What part of “Launch a devastating and uncounterable magical barrage, hole up, rinse, repeat” is not a sound tactic? Do you have some issue with the larger strategy? That’s a different question, but I’m quite certain that this tactic would do wonderfully against the rank and file. We’ve gone over some of the possibilities for the battles with the top-shelf Sauroners already, and we can rehash that if you’d like. The non-wizard folks on Voldemort’s team are pretty much screwed, as you’d expect melee combatants to be in a giant melee war. Dementors aren’t in danger of being driven off and ‘turned’, since no one on either side can conjure a Patronus. I could see them defecting to Sauron’s team for some reasons, but on the other hand Sauron’s team has (apparently) millions of saps to feed on. If they switch sides, Sauron can promise them, what? A few dozen souls, the end? There are a *lot* of Dementors, and they’re hungry. They don’t care about who is more evil, it’s who will give them the most opportunity to eat misery and despair. In a cage match like this, the answer is quite clearly Voldemort. Orc Swordsman #47 is pretty damn despairing after having seen Fiendfyre wipe the 23rd regiment, y’know? And #47 has 10,000 buddies just lying around…

And still, not a void. What would that stand on? I guess it’d be that sci-fi plot convention where people who can walk through walls never fall through floors.

1) First they terrorized, then they ruled it. They were in nigh-total control of the government, had posses rounding up undesirables, flawless surveillance on any who dared speak the Dark Lord’s name… it was a pretty solid set-up.
2) They don’t think the orcs will catch them, but they’re pretty sure that they don’t want it to happen lest they be pulped. That’s not at all the same as “Oh, look, children I can harass.” Overconfidence implies you’re surprised when you get the snot kicked out of you.
3) We’ve debated back and forth whether they can hurt each other, how will they catch each other, and on and on. If they need to battle and can do so, he can handle it. ::shrug:: Not really a huge point, IMO. (This is leaning OACA in most scenarios suggested, though I liked the “Animated weapon force, roll out!” Sauron’s definitely stabbable, no magic attack needed.)
4) LoS issue addressed above.
7) Um, ‘Repello Muggletum’? Anyone who approaches remembers somewhere else they’d rather be. Unplottability means you can’t spread the secret of where something is found, even if you found it. Why does everyone insist that AK is the only way to kill people? Have y’all not been reading about Fiendfyre, for just one example? Wizards could continue hiding with great success… at worst, the might have to pull out of living in Muggle communities, but they don’t need to fight that war. Voldemort has also shown it’s perfectly possible to quietly take control of the government, so that’s an option too. If you took one wizard and pitted him against a modern army, I suppose he’d be in more trouble than fighting orcs, but it’s not really relevant because it’d never get to that point. Right now, wizards are in ‘Don’t advertise your presence’ mode. If they switch to full ‘Hole up and live our own wizarding world,’ then that’s all there is to it. In this case, they don’t need to fight a war at all.
8) Apologies, summon has the wrong connotation. I meant it as in a court summons – “You are required to report!” It works both ways, so Voldemort can pop in on a Death Eater too. This isn’t really a major point, so consider it closed.
10) Voldemort has tons of experience living in the shadows, and no experience leading an army because he doesn’t have or need an army. Is that such a profound statement? You only need sophisticated military cunning to defeat Sauron’s army when you’re fighting with the same kind of army, like the good guys had in LOTR.

Nazgul magic: The sundering thing works if he knows where the target is, and if the thing itself isn’t actively trying to prevent that attack. Protego and an Invisibility cloak are a great start. Also, ‘turn and vanish’ might literally be invisinating instead of poofing away. In any event, it’s not at the top if

Xanaphia, you’ll have to read book 7 or look up Wikipedia, but it’s potent. Fiendfyre revved up to cathedral-filling size in the span of a minute. Orcs make good fire food. Fiendfyre is faster than a running man. I’m not sure I see a problem thus far…

Wizards can hide from birds. Repello Avis! And they don’t need to hold territory; the Rope Trick tent will do just fine night after night, especially if you set it up dozens of miles away.

Orcs are most definitely limited. S’a big number, but one we’ve People keep saying orcs breed quickly, which is great, but it needs to be defined to matter. I don’t know how long y’all think this war is going to last, but we’re not talking years. And heavy infantry? You wound their pride! Each wizards is a team of Batman commandos, at the very least. Give them a little credit

[EvilElitest]

Neutral plane of battle doesn't mean 'big white void defined by the edge of battle'. It's just terrain not specifically advantageous to either side due to previous residence or excessive familiarity. Hit and run is a perfectly legitimate way to run a war.

A perfeclty legitimate way to run a war when you have the home ground advantage and a good orginization pattern, both are at least partically lacked by Voldemort.

EE, those numbers are actually quite well sourced. Even if you disagree with the exact count, they are not 'random' at all.

In that link, he claims that the elves only have 2,000 at the battle of Five Armies. In the hobbit, the numbers of elves never comes up. Now consider the fact that the woodland kindom is the largest elven kindom in the world. Even if the king only took 1/3 of his force with him, i'd imagine that he'd have more than 2,000, look at the amount of land they control. 2,000 elves, 1,000 dale men, 80,000 orcs are all guesses.

Sauron's eye can see through illusion, but everyone else on his team cannot.

The Nazgul can, and his Olag-hai will obey his will instently, so two down.

And they'll be shooting arrows on reflex (and immediately, apparently), so there's no time for Sauron to say, "Whoa guys, time out, it's a figment." I don't care how skilled anyone is as an archer; this isn't about hitting a target accurately (which any of them certainly could do), it's about drawing an arrow, pulling it to full draw, and tracking the target - who is no longer there in the time it took you to think "Quick, shoot it!"

To many people for the wizard to keep track of, out of a thousand orcs, one of them is going to pull off a lucky shot, perticually if it is poisoned. If Saruon's eye is guiding their direction, more lucky shots

There's a whole entry on Peeves on HPL, same area as the previous link. It's well established.

Sweet, show me and i'll accept that

And you cannot accept that creatures made of evil itself cannot be killed? That's fine... you don't have to accept it for it to be true. Any suggestions on how to counter the fact that nobody can kill them?

Any prove that they can't be killed. Lupin kills that boggart, the Dementors may be killed by the patroness, werewolves can be killed as per normal, ect. I find it hard to belive that dark creatures simple cannot be killed

I really don't know what all those numbers about the Death Eaters' tactics are supposed to represent, because they're pretty disorganized... I'll try to reply systematically...

No their not, they fail again and again because of lack of orginization. Some of them are smart, but not plenty

1) How do they organize? They've been operating as a group with a system of instant (if limited) communication for the better part of, what, 40 years? They effectively took over all of wizard Britain. Is that organized enough?

1. Terrorize, not take over
2. Terroist movment were they can blend into the crowd are enterilly different from open war, in Iraq right now if we wanted to wipe out every thing we would win, it is the insurgency that are causing problems.

2) Death Eaters are overconfident when there's every reason for them to do so, as I detailed in my last post. Being overconfident is also not the same as 'they will all walk in front of arrows.'

We've seen them be overconfident against full grown wizards, and many aren't all that bright. After a few succeful attacks, some will get bold and try something big, and fail because they are overconfident and foolish (or at least brash) as we've seen again and again in the books

3) Voldemort doesn't really need scads of men as it is... if he's alone in the end, so be it. He has never relied on anyone when it counts, anyway.

Voldemort on his own against Sauron and the nine? Even if you hit and run tatic works by some miricle, it will still be ten to one, all of whom are powerful casters.

4) Weapons flying in every direction? What makes you think they'll be anywhere near this crazy melee action? Why would they stick around in projectile range? Wizards only stand on the battlefield (if even that close) for seconds. Count 'em, one, two, three... that's about it, total

Teleport in, cast spell, teleport out, minimuim. Considering the flying Nazgul, arrows flying every were, and any orc who happens to be close going for the kill, i'd say it would be a pretty high risk.

5) Again, being a good archer isn't important, and 'They know magic' isn't useful. Do they know specifically magic-countering magic? I'm thinking not, since they've been driven off with magic before.

They have been driven off by holy magic, something voldemort lacks. If they can cast spell in response to the Death eaters, some death eaters could very well die

6) Sauron has evil spellcasters of the sort that still hasn't been detailed. You name people, but you don't explain their abilities and their presence in the LOTR timeframe.

Who do you want me to detail?

7) Non-wizard forces are pretty screwed, in the end. They'll put up a good little fight, but there's no way they're coming out of that alive. They're not meant for big team battles.

Well, the dementors will likely switch sides, the giants can be countered by the trolls and the orcs, lesser dark evil will be taken over or killed by the nazgul, loss of men. And were will you keep them until they are used.

8) Some death eaters may switch sides, yes. But that takes time, and (for just one example) the fact that they know Voldemort can always find them OR summon them to his side is a strong deterant.

1. Voldemort could find them because he had contact
2. Why wouldn't the less loyal ones (malfory, ect) switch sides. Voldemort treats his followers like scum, Sauron treats his spell casting followers like slightly better scum. And considering Voldemort's plan is pretty much a sucied mission, yeah?
3. Voldemort can't summon them, he just lets them known that he wants them to come.

9) Where do they go when not fighting? Who cares? They set up one of those magic tents, cast a disilluionment charm, a hover charm, protego totalis, repello orcum, the whole shebang, and stay in their Rope Trick til morning. Or Tuesday. The Dark Mark allows instant regrouping.

1. Sauron has the eye to find them
2. This isn't full proof remember hogwarts only became so protected because of years of enchantments by some of the most powerful people.

1

0) Oh, they'll develop countertactics, will they? I suppose Voldemort will develop counter-counter-tactics in response. That's not an argument.

And were does Voldemort have this miltary experience?

LOTR is about small numbers. It's Tolkien, and did not have in mind the whole commercial apparatus, possible RPG conversions, boardgames and miniature games. Armies in the range of hundreds of thousands are nearly impossible, and even orcs have to eat and drink. Also, Middle Earth is big, but the events of LOTR take place in a small part of it. The whole gorgoroth plateau can't be much bigger than sicily, and that gives you a good proportion.

1. every mention of the orc/goblins says that they have massive numbers, over the top massive numbers
2. Orc have to eat and drink, but will do so with anything. Ruined food, yum, tainted water, sure they aren't going to last long anyways, hungry, well your buddy is dead so....
3. What makes you say that the gorgoroth platue is only the size of Sicily.

I hnoestly don't remember the description of easterlings, men of nurn and khand, so I'd love to get the source to refresh my memory. When I used Xerses army, I quoted what should have been the real size of it, not herodotus' exaggeration. As for Sauron, let's use what we know as reader's and not the estimate made by a gondorian historian scared to death.

They are mentioned in the apendix, the end of the two towers, the first half of the Return of the king, and in the simerlian.

The allied forces of the free people were really small. 4000 from lossarnach managed to reach Minas Tirith and join the 2-3000 left behind by Aragorn,

You forget 1. the number of people who were their before, Rohenrium included
2. More people from the now freeded lands who are showing up.

"10 times greater and perhaps more" thing was estimated on the 6000 at the slag hills before the black gate. Sauron literally emptied Mordor to face them. Yes, there might have been some left at Minas Morgul (but they did not answer the challenge extended by aragorn) and a few scattered haradrims in the ithilien, feinting weakness in ambushes to the Gondorian army, so as to provoke aragorn. There might have been a garrison at Barad Dur, and some more in the various fortresses of the Ephel Duath and Gorgoroth (Durthang and so on), but don't forget that Sauroin was drooling over the idea that Aragorn was carrying the ring with himself and that he would be so stupid as to try and use it against Sauron (he did not think Aragorn was better than Isildur, did he?), o he did not save forces for later, because there would not need to be a later. His Victory "would be instantaneous and total", so why leave a single orc behind? After all, he controls them a bit like the Overmind in starcraft so long as they are in Mordor, so FULL ATTACK GUYS! The ring is in the hands of the red caped guy! Go for the numenorean and take him to me!

Speculation. Sauron had a massive land, and they do mentioned in the book that he had more troops at the dark tower, and all of the other fortresses he controls. He also has a vast host in the north, the battle at Dul Galdor was epic apperently, as was the battle of Dale with the massive amount of northern ocs and the orcs from the east/easterlings. And in the battle of the black gate, that host is just what comes out interally, more most likely were in the rear.

Other forces aided him on the side, but they'd not necessarily give a direct help against Voldemort 's army. Saruman had even his own ambitions, and thought he might supplant the Dark Lord, seeing Orthanc as the "Little Barad Dur" (and he was so wrong about that), and he was the most powerful of the Istarion. The Dragons of the northern wastes were provoked by Angmar, and ravaged the north for a couple of years, but by the time of the War of the Ring the are all sound asleep somewhere in the pak north of Angmar. Even with the ring, Sauron did not have the authority to order Dragons, since in Middle Earth it all seems to boil down to the fact that you have power over whatg you create, either directly or through an item. Since dragons wer made by Melkor, Sauron can't ask them anything.

1. Saruman has ever reason to aid Sauron in his war, he has so much more to offer him, also Saruman's free will is slightly debatable
2. The dragons worked with Sauron, not for when he wiped out the dwarven kindoms, he might be able to use them as morgoth
3. What about the Balrog? Is he working with Sauron, considering the northern orcs attacks on Sauron's enemies, it seems so

Still, I must say that whatever force he could muster, must have been around 100.000, all inclusives, even cats, dogs, the cook and the priest. Pretty impressive since they are all mindless mass murderers who do not question orders and live for the thirst of blood. Add to this the Dementor's instantanous side switching (they'd feel like home at Barad Dur, sweet !!!!), and there you go.

O

Knowing the amount of land he controls and his orcs tendency to bread like rabbits, i'd peg him with about 300,000.
from,
EE

[Ditto]

Where were they overconfident over fully-grown wizards? Death Eaters talk a big game, but they’re genuinely afraid of the Order.

Peeves is here. Show me how HP wizards defeat Dementors, and we can talk about the non-magic that Sauron’s team can drive them off with. Where’s your happy thoughts, team? :small smile:

I’m telling you, Gandalf just had a +1 flashlight.

Details – Who are these spellcasters, are they around and on Sauron’s team during LOTR, and what can they do? The few people that have been mentioned previously are from antiquity and “They are described as powerful spellcasters”, which doesn’t count for much until we know what that means. So far, power spellcasting seems to be focused on imbuing locations with abjurations and enchanting weapons. Also, when naming the armies and factions, might I ask that you attend to proper nouns more precisely? I sometimes have trouble telling when you’re talking about nurm men and numenorians and the like.

See, people think that Malfoy is disloyal because he chose to save his son over getting the snot beaten out of him by dozens of wizards. He’s still evil! What’s the ironclad motivation for switching sides? Voldemort can find them, and they’ll just have to go up against wizards like themselves. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but some folks indicate that just because some flunkies and Dementors could switch sides, they already have.

Sauron’s eye is a huge telescope. That’s all. It can see stuff from very far away, but it has to know where to look. It’s not useful for finding things in a scrying sense, otherwise he could have detected any of the Fellowship on their long journeys to defeat him.

10) I was being facetious. “Orcs will develop countertactics” is not an argument unless you explain countertactics. Orcs aren’t exactly brilliant, and we can’t leave the fictional characters to improvise in hopes that they’ll find some phlebotinum.

Saruman was always working on his own agenda. The Balrog in Moria was pretty much just hanging out – but he’s dead, and there isn’t a secret storehouse of Balrogs lying around. There aren’t any dragons in play, since they aren’t talked about in the trilogy.

[SmartAlec]

Lets get something straight about the Witch King.

The prophecy, by Glorfindel, was that he would "not fall by the hand of man".

That's a prophecy, not a spell. It conveys nothing about protections based on gender.

The Ring saga has quite a few examples of prophecies and curses existing as one. Here's a couple of the most obvious.

1) Frodo's angry claim that should Gollum ever try to take the Ring again, he - Gollum - would be cast into the Fire. And that's what happened.

One could argue that it was the Ring that empowered this, but an even scarier example:

2) Isildur's curse upon the Oathbreakers, before the Last Alliance went to War. He told them straight that they would have no rest until one came to whom they could fulfil their oaths, and... that's what happened.

That's half a curse, but the stuff about 'one coming to whome you could fulfil your oaths', that's pure prophecy. And this was before Isildur had the Ring.

Prophecy, curse and oath etc have a lot of power in Middle-Earth. The right words of prophecy, spoken by a figure of power like Glorfindel, at the right time; they might as well have been a spell, because they have all the force of one. It's a little like what Pratchett calls 'narrative causality', but with all the mystique that such a mindbogglingly fundamental phenomenon deserves.

EDIT: Heh, Voldemort knew enough to treat prophecy as the dangerous force it really was, and it still got him in the end.

[gooddragon1]

What? How is this even a question?

Demi-god (or god, really, as he's certainly more powerful than other Maiar as presented) with entire nations at his direct beck-and-call, versus a guy with a wand, some sidekicks, and more phylacteries than is good for him.

Sauron, corporeal, just beats the **** out of him. Incorporeal, he mobs him with 10 million orcs. Seriously, what the hell is Voldy going to do? Even if Sauron dies, he's immortal unless someone chucks the One Ring into Mount Doom. Voldy, admittedly, has more phylacteries, but they are far more vulnerable.

But what if those orcs had ak47s? Heh...

Srsly, I saw vold do some crazy stuff against dumbl, but sauron has a longer beard and a cooler staff. I'd also wager that Sauron has spell resistance, just walks up with a mace and beats face.

[warty goblin]

Man, these things are getting long again…

If we want to keep going into the real-world parallels on this, that’s fine… I spent the better part of my college career studying spycraft, rebellions, and counterinsurgency. The single most important factor in guerrilla war is having outside aid. There is no successful example of a guerrilla army winning without some sort of external backing. (Situations like Castro and Cuba aren’t strong ones, because it was far more Batista’s collapse than Castro’s victory, and the fact that he advertised democracy. That’s why the situation was never reproduced, despite attempts all over South and Central America.) The need for outside aid stems from the fact not that the guerrillas are few, but that they are weak. They need the big guns and more people to wield the big guns. Your observations are correct that far. In this case, though, Voldemort does not need big guns - he is big guns. Guerrilla warfare aims to draw folks away from heavily fortified positions for the same reason – they are few and therefore too weak to engage in open conflict. Not the cast with Voldemort. It’s like saying a nuclear warhead is a weak opponent because there’s only one of them, even thought it would vaporize the entire army if gathered in one place.

To Warty Goblin: Again, I’ve studied this rather a lot. Terrorists indiscriminately kill civilians. Guerrillas go out of their way not to. Neither really applies to Voldemort’s cohort in 7th book mode, because they’re building a fascist regime. They’re much closer to guerrillas than terrorists, but either way they’re not fighting an overt war. I don’t see this campaign lasting 5 years, though, so fatigue spanning that length of time shouldn’t be a concern. Deserting isn’t a viable option in this scenario, though defecting as admittedly a possibility. I’ve come up with some reasons why they wouldn’t defect, but that’s a fine point to consider. Definitely some good thoughts, on the whole.

Fog would be very clever, but it limits the archers in the same way. If you want to launch a hail of arrows into the fog blindly, that’s your prerogative, but at that point the Death Eaters’d best hole up for a while and rely on even one Fiendfyre launch to wreak some havoc (and burn off some fog, too) before moving to the next step. They can wait right in the middle of the battlefield, if they want to. Impregnable bubbles are nifty like that. And they can apparate away to anywhere they’ve already been from inside, so Sauron might spend a lot of time busting it open to find nothing.

Still waiting on the names and descriptions of this elite anti-mage team Sauron apparently has.

What part of “Launch a devastating and uncounterable magical barrage, hole up, rinse, repeat” is not a sound tactic? Do you have some issue with the larger strategy? That’s a different question, but I’m quite certain that this tactic would do wonderfully against the rank and file. We’ve gone over some of the possibilities for the battles with the top-shelf Sauroners already, and we can rehash that if you’d like. The non-wizard folks on Voldemort’s team are pretty much screwed, as you’d expect melee combatants to be in a giant melee war. Dementors aren’t in danger of being driven off and ‘turned’, since no one on either side can conjure a Patronus. I could see them defecting to Sauron’s team for some reasons, but on the other hand Sauron’s team has (apparently) millions of saps to feed on. If they switch sides, Sauron can promise them, what? A few dozen souls, the end? There are a *lot* of Dementors, and they’re hungry. They don’t care about who is more evil, it’s who will give them the most opportunity to eat misery and despair. In a cage match like this, the answer is quite clearly Voldemort. Orc Swordsman #47 is pretty damn despairing after having seen Fiendfyre wipe the 23rd regiment, y’know? And #47 has 10,000 buddies just lying around…

And still, not a void. What would that stand on? I guess it’d be that sci-fi plot convention where people who can walk through walls never fall through floors.


Nazgul magic: The sundering thing works if he knows where the target is, and if the thing itself isn’t actively trying to prevent that attack. Protego and an Invisibility cloak are a great start. Also, ‘turn and vanish’ might literally be invisinating instead of poofing away. In any event, it’s not at the top if

Xanaphia, you’ll have to read book 7 or look up Wikipedia, but it’s potent. Fiendfyre revved up to cathedral-filling size in the span of a minute. Orcs make good fire food. Fiendfyre is faster than a running man. I’m not sure I see a problem thus far…

Wizards can hide from birds. Repello Avis! And they don’t need to hold territory; the Rope Trick tent will do just fine night after night, especially if you set it up dozens of miles away.

Ok, so Voldermort is somewhere between a terrorist and a guerrilla (although doesn't really go out of his way to avoid killing civilians so much...). Either way he'll be waging an asymetrical war. Sure he and his followers can retreat and strike with impunity, but as I pointed out above (and you failed to provide a counter for) Sauron is pretty much immune to magic on a divine scale- I'm fairly sure that gods pack more punch than mortals. As long as Sauron survives and remains undefeated (that is, they don't destroy his shape again) he will have vast hordes at his command, and can use them to take and hold territory, thus forcing Voldermort to engage in hit and run warfare. Voldermort has two problems here.
1) It is very hard to make meaningful progress. Sure he and followers can kill tons of orcs, but orcs are cheap and eminantly replacable. The more dangerous and interesting foes (Nazgul) are far more resiliant and have a disturbing tendancy to reform after being killed, again making meaningful progress difficult.
2) Small margin of error. Voldermort and followers have massive destructive capabilities, I don't deny that. With assorted spells he can remain almost always undected and wreck havok to some extent, but there' very few of them, and with the exception of Voldermort they die pretty easy. Perhaps when apperating out one time they are in a bit of a panic from Nazgul proximity and somebody splinches themselves, that's one less follower. Perhaps somebody eats poisoned food by mistake, another follower killed or incapacitated. Perhaps an orc actually does get off a lucky shot, another Death Eater who's eaten his own name. Sauron has vast numbers of disposable minions, he can afford to lose them. Voldermort has a small number of very damaging but not to much more durable minions, they cannot afford to make a mistake, because it will get them killed or otherwise disabled.

These, combined with their inability to meaningfully hold ground, will force them into guerrilla and terrorist warfare. With no chance of outside help, and precious little of success, I would predict that the movement would lose steam and fall apart, particularly given Voldermort's less than inspirational leadership style, because let's face it, torturing people every time they screw up doesn't exactly instill loyalty. All it does is make them not want to screw up again. It works in HP because there's nowhere for unhappy Death Eaters to go, but if Sauron starts offering some form of less painful amnesty, I'd say that quite a few would jump ship given the chance. Die-hards like Belatrix would stick it out, but people like the Malfoys? I seriously doubt it. And the campaign hardly needs to last five years for fatigue to start to show up. It drove Harry, Ron and Hermione to distraction within a few months, and they were friends to start with. Its effects on a much more cutthroat organization like the Death Eaters is going to be far more pronounced.

[Rutee]

"Fog would be very clever, but it limits the archers in the same way. If you want to launch a hail of arrows into the fog blindly, that’s your prerogative, but at that point the Death Eaters’d best hole up for a while and rely on even one Fiendfyre launch to wreak some havoc (and burn off some fog, too) before moving to the next step. They can wait right in the middle of the battlefield, if they want to. Impregnable bubbles are nifty like that. And they can apparate away to anywhere they’ve already been from inside, so Sauron might spend a lot of time busting it open to find nothing."

...I said exactly as much. Fog benefits Sauron's forces;
1: Arrows have a more limitted effect range then spells (I Presume; I /know/ Arrows can't fly forever, but I saw no indication that spells will fizzle for travelling more then X Distance)
2: Fiendfyre will give away its position (And thus allow a withdrawal from the immediate area, if not the area of operations) long before it becomes a threat. "Oh snap, I can actually see that far"
3: Cutting off Apparation and line of sight means that if a volley of arrows from a column of archers goes the right way, the wizard doesn't get more then a split second to react. It may be luck-based to land it in the right direction (Or maybe not, if 1: Sauron's eye penetrates fog, and 2: Sauron can micro his troops like EE implies, which I consider a bit doubtful), but considerring how much more the loss of a Death Eater affects Voldemort then losing even a batallion affects Sauron..

What part of “Launch a devastating and uncounterable magical barrage, hole up, rinse, repeat” is not a sound tactic? Do you have some issue with the larger strategy? That’s a different question, but I’m quite certain that this tactic would do wonderfully against the rank and file.

The part where you vastly overestimate how devestating and uncounterable it would be. *If* Sauron could micro his troops, you're basically asking me "Why can't my Archmage take out an entire army by himself? He's got Blizzard!" *Sauron's forces can leave the area where the fire's at* Further, Fiendfyre still seems to need fuel. Start torching the woods and fields on your own (I don't think Sauron minds scorched earth, given Mordor's movie representation.. >.>) and you have just destroyed the only thing that even you think will be ridiculously effective.

Another easy comparison; "Why can't my one guy with Napalm OHKO the Vietcong?" Seriously, Fiendfyre sounds like modern day incendiary weapons, but sentient. Not a compelling case for "It wins the war by itself". Ooo, guess what; If I'm Sauron, I just have the winds blow it away from my troops! Towards Voldemort's if I can (I don't know how much license Sauron has with weather, so feel free and rebut if you do)

1) First they terrorized, then they ruled it. They were in nigh-total control of the government, had posses rounding up undesirables, flawless surveillance on any who dared speak the Dark Lord’s name… it was a pretty solid set-up.
2) They don’t think the orcs will catch them, but they’re pretty sure that they don’t want it to happen lest they be pulped. That’s not at all the same as “Oh, look, children I can harass.” Overconfidence implies you’re surprised when you get the snot kicked out of you.
3) We’ve debated back and forth whether they can hurt each other, how will they catch each other, and on and on. If they need to battle and can do so, he can handle it. ::shrug:: Not really a huge point, IMO. (This is leaning OACA in most scenarios suggested, though I liked the “Animated weapon force, roll out!” Sauron’s definitely stabbable, no magic attack needed.)
4) LoS issue addressed above.
7) Um, ‘Repello Muggletum’? Anyone who approaches remembers somewhere else they’d rather be. Unplottability means you can’t spread the secret of where something is found, even if you found it. Why does everyone insist that AK is the only way to kill people? Have y’all not been reading about Fiendfyre, for just one example? Wizards could continue hiding with great success… at worst, the might have to pull out of living in Muggle communities, but they don’t need to fight that war. Voldemort has also shown it’s perfectly possible to quietly take control of the government, so that’s an option too. If you took one wizard and pitted him against a modern army, I suppose he’d be in more trouble than fighting orcs, but it’s not really relevant because it’d never get to that point. Right now, wizards are in ‘Don’t advertise your presence’ mode. If they switch to full ‘Hole up and live our own wizarding world,’ then that’s all there is to it. In this case, they don’t need to fight a war at all.
8) Apologies, summon has the wrong connotation. I meant it as in a court summons – “You are required to report!” It works both ways, so Voldemort can pop in on a Death Eater too. This isn’t really a major point, so consider it closed.
10) Voldemort has tons of experience living in the shadows, and no experience leading an army because he doesn’t have or need an army. Is that such a profound statement? You only need sophisticated military cunning to defeat Sauron’s army when you’re fighting with the same kind of army, like the good guys had in LOTR.

3: Enchanting a weapon != animating it through magic. Voldemort dueling Sauron is a win for Sauron; This is not the proverbial Nasuverse argument of Gilgamesh vs. Arcueid, where despite the flat out power of the one, the other wins through versatility. Sauron has at least as many tricks as Voldemort, and an outright power advantage. He needs his Death Eaters more or less intact. Given his habit of overestimating himself and treating his minions as pawns (When they're more like.. an army of Bishops and Rooks)
4: If that's your rebuttal, then LoS is against you, so sorry. It didn't really address any particular problem.
7) You are proving my point. Wizards can't win an open (Or probably covert; see below) war in *their* world. Heck, I imagine they rely on Muggles to supply food. A war against your inevitable supply source is, like a war against your trading partner, generally a bad idea. Wizards would lose.

And honestly, I suspect there'd be wizards helping the muggles if such a thing happened. A concept you don't seem to really wrap your head around is actual defection; "Do I help the people who teach me cool powers, or my entire extended family... Hm..." Most of the covert war methods are, presumably, foilable. Wizards can withdraw perfectly, no contention there, but that's not really 'winning'.

Also, stop with the Fiendfyre Fanboyism. 1: The Modern World has Napalm. It's both easier to use and roughly as devastating.
2: Do you /really/ think that if it was truly as dangerous as Avada Kadavra, it wouldn't be banned?
10) AND HE NEEDS HIS ARMY TO WIN. Lord and tailor, you'd think we were speaking gibberish.

[EvilElitest]

maybe not, if 1: Sauron's eye penetrates fog, and 2: Sauron can micro his troops like EE implies,

he can do so for the Olag-hai, the nazgul, those who hold palentirs, and possible the mouth of Sauron. Oh and the Nazgul can at least direct troops from above without talking to them, that is known, though that might be singling.

Towards Voldemort's if I can (I don't know how much license Sauron has with weather, so feel free and rebut if you do

I know he can't make the weather really foul in his own land. Outside of that, he had a great cloud blot out the sun, and send a "Foul wind". I'm not sure, he might do more stuff in the Simerelon



more later
From,
EE

[multilis]

No matter how much it would make sense, she did not have a magic sword. This is not a negotiable point!

Did she have access to magic heirlooms?

ROTK->Many Partings: Elowyn gave Merry a small horn... "This is an heirloom of our house... made by the dwarves...came from the horde of Scatha the Worm...blows it shall set fear into hearts of enemies."

This discussion is all foolishness anyways to a battle between S and V, because it is obvious that the Nazgul were secret allies of Gandalf rather than Sauron, so they don't count. This is not a negotiable point!

If the elves really wanted the witch king dead they would have killed him long ago after his army was defeated, rather than give a silly prophesy. And if the witch king really wanted the ring he would have gotten it when they had Frodo outnumbered at weathertop. (Choice between a weak hobbit Ringbearer now or a human Ringbearer with strong willpower and royal/elvish blood later)

[Ditto]

^Rutee, Mutilis isn't on my side, so I think I *will* accuse you of speaking gibberish.

It's really not necessary to quote an entire post. If you must, please just quote the issue being addressed. It's making the page needlessly long.

Sauron can *block* divine magic. He is not *immune* to it. Those are very different things. (There. Counterpoint.) We know Sauron can be harmed with mundane means, so he does not have any sort of physical invulnerability. He's very much like Voldemort in this way. Voldemort can totally be killed (-ish) by an AK or stunned or cut, but he's got ways to counter those issues. Sauron isn't exactly a hard target to find.

I explained the necessity of outside help for guerrillas, why that was a necessity, and why that need was fulfilled by the combatants themselves. The HP wizards do not require outside help. Also, like your normal guerrillas, they're not trying to hold ground. It's not necessary to control an area, just kill everything. There are lots of orcs, I understand, but they're not endless. Go ahead and decide on one of those exorbitantly high figures, and we'll work backward from there if we much. (Never mind that the well-sourced arguments proffer a significantly smaller number - either can be whittled down.) Orcs do not spring out of the ground overnight, just-add-water. In a full war, their "incredible" (still undefined!) reproductive rate would be an advantage to be contended with, but we're not talking about that sort of timeframe.

Hit and run isn't "Shoot one shot and escape", it's "Hit and run to the other side of the army and hit again, eat a sandwich, hit the next army, run back to the first army, drink tea." You're not evacuating, you're repositioning.

Y'all keep saying Voldemort would lose followers and couldn't hold together a meaningful cohort to lead. He did, quite successfully, for years. Sure, they don't *love* him as a boss, but they knew what they were signing up for. Crucio is a risk on the road to ultimate power. ::shrug::

(Fiendfyre)
Pronunciation: Unknown
Description: Fiendfyre is a seemingly unstoppable cursed fire, the flames of which take the shape of fantastic creatures that pursue those caught in its path.

Cursed fire, made up of flames of abnormal size and heat that can crumble fairly substantial objects to soot at a mere touch. Left burning long enough, the fire will take the shapes of gigantic fiery beasts (including serpents, chimaeras, dragons, and birds of prey) which will pursue any target humans.

That's the short version, but it doesn't say that it needs fuel. Magic fire doesn't need fuel, I just thought that might help it grow even further. These fire creatures move more quickly than a mass of orcs. Further, it's not "Oh, poo, there's a flame beast moving in from the east. Best turn around." It's, "Holy flaming oliphaunt, Batman! I'm in an inferno! I'm ash! There goes that regiment, also ashed!" It's formidable.
EDIT: Oops. I apparently copied most of the Wikipedia entry on HP spells here. Hypocrite for long quote passages, eh?
Sauron cannot micromanage his troops. He is not in direct control of each orc. Otherwise, his soldiers would never, ever argue or fight, especially to the point of civil wars such as the one which allowed Merry and Pippin to escape. He apparently has a direct upload to the Olags, but that's still delivering instructions telepathically rather than being an avatar.

Another easy comparison; "Why can't my one guy with Napalm OHKO the Vietcong?"

No, you have that backward. It's "Why can't the Vietcong with napalm take out the stationary/massed American convoys? Oh, wait, it can." The small team has the firepower. The reason napalm doesn't work as well against guerrillas is... they're not there. Wherever you're looking, they're well dispersed, so you've got to cover waaaay more ground than is possible with random fire.

How is fog more useful for Sauron? It just means the wizards don't get as close as fast. They can still move around invisibly and under protection for a while, and the orcs cannot blanket the entire world with arrows 24/7. An orc only carries so many. Even 500,000 orcs only carry so many, when you're trying to spray a mile-wide battle line into submission. Seriously, in the first volley you launched 500,000 arrows (why are we assuming there are so many archers in this army? Cuz there aren't.) and you launch another 500,000 two seconds later... you're out of arrows in a minute or two.

As you say, Wizards don't need to win a war against Muggles to come out on top. How does that prove anything against Sauron? Unrelated examples. And yes, I admit that Voldemort cannot win in a direct conflict - defined as setting up his forces in a line and marching toward Sauron's front line. That's called 'Stupid'. People get the wrong idea about assymmetical warfare - being few in number is not the problem for a given team, it's the scarcity of war material and resources. Wizards have those in spades. If you like, they can push the attack in a big rush and only apparate to a relatively close 'repositioning' position instead of what you call so negatively a 'retreat'... whatever.

Napalm is actually pretty useful against large armies... it just didn't work in Viet Nam, and everyone likes harping on that. I'd direct you to my course on the Viet Nam War, but it was rather tedious. Fiendfyre is banned in the Potterverse. It's not one of the three Unforgivable Curses, sure; those are termed as such because they are single-target spells, against the rules to use on another sentient creature. There are all sorts of other illegal magic, and Fiendfyre is one of the most dangerous ones. There are all sorts of spells more dangerous than AK, depending on what you are judging; AK is the absolute best at killing single persons, but there are better spells and effects for dealing with more than one person.

[LordVader]

I really don't need to point out that that said target HUMANS, do I?

And while Sauron does not have complete control over his followers, he has far more control than Voldie does. Sauron has never, to my knowledge, had Orcs stray completely from their task or "bail" on him, even after it seemed he died, but the same is certainly not true for Voldie.