Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Emperor Tippy]

Hey, I'm willing to take him on and win with a grand total of 3 spells cast. 1 Hours/Level spell, 1 10 minutes/level spell cast 2 times (once quickened). With no other spells cast I will beat the Joker.

[Sir Giacomo]

Originally Posted by Freelance Henchman

So you're admitting the Monk (along with the rest of the non-casters) is trash, and the best he can do is ignore his class abilities and do whatever he can to pretend to be a caster?

No. The non-casters should just also use magic, much like the casters. Items, buffs, supernatural abilities (in the monk case). It's all there. Simply running up to the monsters and doing full attack as in the low levels needs to be complemented with some high-level tactics.

- Giacomo

[Solo]

Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo

No. The non-casters should just also use magic, much like the casters. Items, buffs, supernatural abilities (in the monk case). It's all there. Simply running up to the monsters and doing full attack as in the low levels needs to be complemented with some high-level tactics.

- Giacomo

Things we can deduce:

1) Magic rules
2) Melee sucks
3) Melee characters can't compete without emulating magic at higher levels, which is not how a balanced game should be. If your class has to mimic anotehr class to do it's job properly, that is indicative of a design flaw.

[Sir Giacomo]

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy

Hey, I'm willing to take him on and win with a grand total of 3 spells cast. 1 Hours/Level spell, 1 10 minutes/level spell cast 2 times (once quickened). With no other spells cast I will beat the Joker.

So, you are basically accepting the following:

1) Core rules only (PHB, DMG, Monster manual)

2) no morph stuff (alter self/polymorph/pao/shapechange/animal shapes)

3) consumable one-shot items like scrolls cost x5, charged items have 1/5th charges, as per DMG p. 199

4) 25% wbl going to a single item, as per DMG p. 199. So, in this case for a level 16 contest that's max 65,000 for any one item.

5) No custom items. Intelligent items are a possibility - but I guess we should play without them (or else the item dim doors the monk close to the wizard, wizard loses).

6) No LA +1 races.

7) Only hour/lvl buffs allowed ahead of combat.

8) One buffing round, within sight of each other.

9) No effects of 9th level usuable.

Now as for how far away from each other everyone is, and what the area looks like, that's to be debated. I'm open for suggestions.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Originally Posted by Solo

Things we can deduce:

1) Magic rules
2) Melee sucks
3) Melee characters can't compete without emulating magic at higher levels, which is not how a balanced game should be. If your class has to mimic anotehr class to do it's job properly, that is indicative of a design flaw.

Nope. For instance, melee characters make great use of the following magic, enhancing their performance:

Haste, enhancement bonuses, DEX bonuses, STR bonuses, divine power, enlarge, rightuous might, polymorph (*gulp*), blink, greater invisibility, displacement, and so on and so on.

Melee can rule, too! SYNERGY is the key here.

- Giacomo

[Solo]

Melee can rule, too! SYNERGY is the key here.

Melee synergizing with magic is powerful.
Melee alone is weak.
Magic synergizing with melee is powerful.
Magic alone is strong.

[Sir Giacomo]

Will be away from posting until tomorrow evening for now.

Happy posting until then!

- Giacomo

[Solo]

Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo

Will be away from posting until tomorrow evening for now.

Happy posting until then!

We'll try our best.

[Sir Giacomo]

Originally Posted by Solo

Melee synergizing with magic is powerful.
Melee alone is weak.
Magic synergizing with melee is powerful.
Magic alone is strong.

TRUE! But as you know from my guide, my opinion is that EVERYONE has access to magic.

- Giacomo

EDIT: of course at lower levels, magic alone is quite weak, and melee is powerful...

[Solo]

Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo

TRUE! But as you know from my guide, my opinion is that EVERYONE has access to magic.

Full casters>UMD junkies.

EDIT: of course at lower levels, magic alone is quite weak, and melee is powerful...

DC 15 will save DC vs +0 will save

[Emperor Tippy]

Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo

So, you are basically accepting the following:

1) Core rules only (PHB, DMG, Monster manual)

2) no morph stuff (alter self/polymorph/pao/shapechange/animal shapes)

3) consumable one-shot items like scrolls cost x5, charged items have 1/5th charges, as per DMG p. 199

4) 25% wbl going to a single item, as per DMG p. 199. So, in this case for a level 16 contest that's max 65,000 for any one item.

5) No custom items. Intelligent items are a possibility - but I guess we should play without them (or else the item dim doors the monk close to the wizard, wizard loses).

6) No LA +1 races.

7) Only hour/lvl buffs allowed ahead of combat.

8) One buffing round, within sight of each other.

9) No effects of 9th level usuable.

*shrug*
Sure, whatever. It's not like any of it matters.

Now as for how far away from each other everyone is, and what the area looks like, that's to be debated. I'm open for suggestions.

The area is the interior of a sphere with a radius of 5 miles. The sphere's sides are utterly featureless and are infinitely thick (no disintegrating your way outside the sphere). Gravity flips at the center point. You can't teleport outside the sphere. No one ever gets hungry or thirsty and the temperature is normal. A diffuse light fills the place and it never gets dark.


There. As completely neutral as I can make it.

[Signmaker]

I know I'm making a pointless UMD statement by saying the following, but meh, why not.

In my opinion, it's not the monk that benefits most from Use Magic Device, but rather casters with familiars. Now, bear with me on this.

A. The most 'valuable' things to possess in DnD are, in no particular order: Spells, Feats, Actions.

B. A familiar can have their intelligence boosted, through spell or magic item, such that they are able to cast spells.

C. A familiar uses the highest ranks between it and its master for skills.

D. Wizards in particular are known for their Intelligence, meaning that it is perfectly natural for them to have skill points to dump in to UMD.

E. Improved Familiar grants access to familiar with positive charisma bonuses (A favorite of mine is Ice Mephit), and, of course, hands. For those picky DMs.

F. For one feat, and minimal Wealth (Just for wands and maybe Cha and/or Int-boosters for your familiar. Wands, as supposedly shown by Giacomo (And myself, it would seem), are pretty cheap), casters get more Actions(In a matter of spells), and ultimately benefit more than a UMDing monk. Why? Because while a monk struggles (or not) to UMD a wand as a pre-battle buff or in-battle buff, possibly wasting actions, a wizard's familiar can do the same UMD action better (More ranks), while the wizard still has actions of their own. Hmm, it's a pity this is a core-only build discussion, there's a feat that allows access to familiars, which would tremendously help your monk's UMDing.



Tell you what. Instead of being the Joker, and instead of "Beating Batman", as this is supposed to be a guide for playing monks, and you'll rarely ever have to FIGHT Batman, as he's on your side, how about...

You play Robin, with Batgirl the Wizard Familiar UMDing you, allowing you to actually focus on being a monk. Fits much better, no? Robin was an acrobat who took his talents to the crimefighting scene, eventually becoming Nightwing, a soloist in his own right.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo

Mistake No. 1: you choose orc instead of half-orc, which is no good basis for the comparison. This is something the monk could also do. With divine power, the now-turned-orc-monk has exactly the same STR as you do.

Yes he does, he also gets less damage from it. and actually loses something from the Cha/Int penalty, unlike the Fighter.

Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo

Dex 15-15-16-22
Con 14-14-20

Mistake 1b: where did you get the points to buy that kind of Con? By jumping up with your point buy? Do you really believe in this kind of comparison standards?

I believe that I am comparing a 32 PB Monk to a 32 PB Fighter, I have to do things like that because you never actually presented a build other then "max str"

Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo

Mistake No. 2: you spent way more on equipment then the half-orc monk I posted- quite unfair. Plus you rely on a custom item (boots of speed AND wings). But don't worry, even so you fail.

The Half Orc Monk with?? A Monk Belt? Did you mention anything else? I spent WBL, deal with it. I'm also comparing him to a WBL Monk.

Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo

In the mean time, on his first round of combat, the Fighter can charge for +33 and do 3d6+28+1d6Cold damage for an average damage of 42.

Now, these numbers look very wrong. Why? Let us see...
The +28 bonus damage - where does it come from?
+10 STR. +5 (1.5 STR due to two-handed), +3 enhance, for a total of +18
With the 4d6, that's just 32. You're still behind by 8 the (now-orc-with-bigger-STR-bonus) monk of +40.

Well let's see, from the 22-24-30-34, that's racial, levels, items, enlarge effect. so that's a Str of +12, which means damage is +18 damage, followed by +4 from GWS, followed by +3 from item, so that's 39 damage. But you are right, I did mistakenly add the Str as +14. Of course he still power attacks for his +2 advantage, giving him a 3 point advantage in damage on his attack.

Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo

The funny thing is that you'll likely get tripped by the monk in that charge (he has improved trip as bonus feat with 20ft reach, you not!)
But still, yes, in a charge he might get in that slightly higher damage for just ONE attack. Let's now see the full round.

Oh that's cute. Yes if he was stupid enough to charge another melee focused character, he might get tripped by your ever so slight higher check, when Divine Powered. Of course if he charges before you have Divine Power up, then he has a +3-4 advantage over you, so you just drop your spiked chain.

But of course, we aren't talking about PvP, if we where he'd just use readied actions. As is, we are talking about:

A Marut
A Werewolf Lord riding a Colossal Monstrous Scorpion.
A Gelugon and his Iron Golem guard
A War Party of Fire Giants

Honestly, the Core Fighter isn't really in the same league as any of these guys, but neither is your Orc Monk, and neither is your Joker Monk. Which is precisely the problem. You are competing to be almost as good as the class that totally can't compete at all.

Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo

And that is how exactly better than the monk's SIX attacks at higher attack bonus with 40 dmg on average with ALL his attacks? You also forgot to add one attack for your boots of speed, though,
And I have top admit that going the armour spike route to retain the TH sword advantage is not that bad. Note, though, that power attacking in full attack is no longer really an option, since you only get that bonus to the THS, and not to the armour spike which counts as a light weapon.

1) No I didn't forget the boots extra attack, because it doesn't apply every round, and he will rarely have a chance where that one extra attack is really that important.

2) Power attacking is still an option, and is used quite commonly against low AC enemies. This character, aside from gear cost and PB cost (which doesn't matter since he still maxed Str) is literally getting his full round or Armor Spike Attacks in exchange for a mere -2 to hit on his primary. So he feels perfectly fine just power attacking away whenever a normal fighter would do so.

3) He compares with said monk by getting more full attacks because he doesn't waste a round buffing. Not to mention that you don't get six attacks, nor do you do 40 damage on each one.

Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo

Mistake No. 3: You forgot to deduct -2 from all attacks from two-weapon fighting. A penalty the monk does not suffer. And somehow your to hit calculations are faulty.
It should read: +27/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17
Meanwhile, the monk with STR 30, divine power up, and his enhance +3 and boots of speed, has attack bonus of +29/+29/+29/+24/+19/+14. And with just one feat (two weapon fighting) he gets exactly the same no. of attacks, at exactly the same bonus.

No, you forgot to add my attack bonus correctly, I did take the -2 penalty, you just missed a +2 somewhere. And you don't get the +2 from boots of speed, or the extra attack, because really, you don't use them all the time. But if the did, it would be in fact your Monks:
+29/+29/+29/+29/+24/+19 against the fighter's
+31/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21

Or he can go TWF for:
+27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+22/+17 vs
+31/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21

Now the above numbers might have missed something, but the didn't miss anything when I put the info into a damage calculator, compared to the ACs mentioned in monsters above: (34/26 or 19/ 20/32/30/and 23) the average damage per full attack (using haste and an extra TWF attack from the Monk) works out in favor of the fighter every time, predictably becoming more so as AC drops. 185 to 173.5/265.5 or 342 to 234.5 or 245.5 (The Monks maximum real damage, all hits and average damage on each hit easily surpassed on low ACs with Power attack)/331 to 245.5/204 to 199.5/223.5 to 216.5/298.5 to 241.

So yes, my build does out damage a damage focused Monk. One thing this info does not take into account is immunity to crits. With the Greatsword's significantly wider crit range (17-20 since I took Improved Crit) this means that the Monk might pull ahead on high AC enemies (though not those that require a 18 or higher to hit) and who are immune to crits. Maybe not though because those are precisely the enemies that the Fighter won't confirm against.

Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo

Note the ways he exceeds a "high Str, high damage half orc Monk":
1) More damage in a single attack
Disproven.
2) More damage in a full attack
Disproven.
3) More attacks in a full attack
Disproven
4) Higher AC
Well, with the equipment available, a DEX +6 and WIS +6 item, the monk can easily with his monk AC bonus equalise that.
5) Higher Touch AC
You are joking, right? Look up again the monk AC bonus.
6) Absolutely no buff time required, since apparently it only takes 1 round of buffing to cast Divine Power and Enlarge, so Enlarge must have a casting time of one free action or be always active.
Yep, let's take the always active one (permanency anyone for just 3,100?)
7) Dare I say it? More then Double the HP? Wholly crazy town Batman!
Wow. Considering your orc fighter does not even reach the orc monk who trips him to his heart's delight...and your starting CON should be 8, not 14 with 28-pt-buy.
8) Can fly and haste himself. Because he's awesome like that.Yep, with a customised item. Great.

1) True, you even admitted it above.
2) True as full calculations have proven.
3) Okay, you can manage as many attacks, or theoretically more of them, but each one represents a much greater investment, that you can not really make.
4) No, because he can't afford those things, you are so cute though.
5) You are joking right? Dex 10 Wis 14 Monks don't have a higher touch AC then a 22 Dex Fighter. But this might change, we'll see when I present your monk build.
6) Please do. I went with one that will provide me with Enlarge four times a day every day from level 6 with no additional costs. But you can feel free to throw money down a drain by paying 3000gp per enlarge that lasts only a few days if that.
7) Too bad your HP still matters when you face the Colossal Centipede and his rider. And the Fire Giants that can kill you in one round, and the Marut, and well, all you enemies. But yes, since I can easily reach the Monk by simply charging him before he casts Divine Power, or withstanding the trip as I do more then 50% of the time, or by readying an action on his approach, or by using my cross class tumble ranks.
8) Oh, a "Customized item" that follows the rules set out for combing slots that are not found in the "custom item guidelines" but instead in the main text? Why is Emerald Streaks casting of a single spell at CL 20 once a day at level 10 excellent play but following the rules of combining items (by increasing the cost) evil munchkinnery Mr Partially Charged Wands?

Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo

So let us sum up: even with higher point buy, more and customised equipment used, and using a very suboptimal feat route, you fail completely to show where the fighter outdamages the monk.

So let me sum up: Even when comparing myself to a 32 PB Monk aimed for damage, using full WBL, my Fighter using crappy Core feats managed to out damage a monk with Divine Power up, which of course he had to spend a round buffing up, even though I could have killed him or any level appropriate enemy with a full attack routine in one round.

{Scrubbed}

[Vexxation]

Hm... anyone want to make it worse by making a Soulknife that could perform more effectively than the Joker?

I'm betting I could do it too, if I tried.

But that's not to put the Joker down. I'm sure Ollivander and the other wand-makers love him.


But a UMD-ing Soulknife could do just as well, I'd bet, and have concealed weapons at all times. And, as an Elan, never need to eat. And enchant his own blades.
For added absurdity, maybe splash warlock in a bit for blastiness of death. Who doesn't love the ability to materialize mind blades, then Eldritch blast an enemy before he knows what hit him?
Fun fun.

[Xuincherguixe]

I don't really want to hunt through 35 pages of this, and I almost think I should start another thread. But the last thing we need is another Monk Thread.

That being said, how would some combination of Psionic Fist/Fist of Zuoken (or however that's spelled) and Slayer work?

Monk might suck, but I bet psychic monk is going to be an excellent way to make an ass kicking Monk.

[Temp.]

That being said, how would some combination of Psionic Fist/Fist of Zuoken (or however that's spelled) and Slayer work?

It should be fine. PP will be tight but Fist of Zuoken Powers can cover the Monk's biggest weaknesses (Hustle allows movement to combine with Flurries or Decisive Strikes, Expansion improves the Monk's tanking, Grip of Iron is required for a serious grappler from any class and the Offensive Prescience and Precognition help the Monk deal with weak to-hit and damage).

[Solo]

Pity it's not core.

[Xuincherguixe]

Well, it's in the SRD.

[Talic]

For Tippy v. Joker - arena should have gravity oriented downward, and recommend a hemisphere, so as to have a flat moving surface, if one is required. Otherwise, size is open.

For Grapple contest, Giacomo v. Solo - Awaiting completed character concepts. Room will be featureless, 100 x 100 x 100.

[Solo]

Originally Posted by Talic

For Grapple contest, Giacomo v. Solo - Awaiting completed character concepts. Room will be featureless, 100 x 100 x 100.

Unless there are any suggestions on how to better my build, what you see is final.

Also, if anyone would like to take over in event of my absence, please feel free to post and tell me.

[Talic]

Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo

Not quite. I said that the source of damage of a fighter is not the base dice, but rather his Power Attack. This broadly keeps the rogue/monk/fighter rougly the same in damage output. And this is what I showed.

- Giacomo

Wrong. After all, the rogue can use UMD for divine power, and then use his enhanced strength combined with sneak attack, and great BAB, and get better damage. On a side note, with UMD as a class skill, the rogue gains access to this trick earlier than a monk. Any contentions?

Or the fighter could use UMD, just as your monk is, for haste, increasing the number of attacks he gets, along with his movement, and attack bonus, allowing him to power attack for more.

Or the monk could get his Divine Power, and get on par with the fighter before the haste. For 7 rounds. In core only (as in non-core, the fighter can power attack for full without any expense of accuracy).

Outside of core, the monk will again fall behind the fighter in damage, simply due to shock trooper.

[Kurald Galain]

Originally Posted by Talic

Wrong. After all, the rogue can use UMD for divine power, and then use his enhanced strength combined with sneak attack, and great BAB, and get better damage. On a side note, with UMD as a class skill, the rogue gains access to this trick earlier than a monk. Any contentions?

No contentions.

Classes that do the "UMD + grapple" trick better than the gonk include (1) anything with full BAB, (2) anything with UMD on their class list, and (3) any full caster. Oh look! That includes every single class in the player's handbook, and an NPC class as well!

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy

"An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. In case of a tie, the higher skill modifier wins. If these scores are the same, roll again to break the tie."

It is an opposed dex check according to both CustServ and game designers who work for WotC who I have talked with.

Well Any Collins was quoted for saying the opposite in this thread, in which you also participated I might add.

Incorrect. The lower result does fail. The RAW is ambiguous but both CustServe (asked multiple times and never got a different answer) and different game designers have said its opposed.

Any argument that is based on customer service advice should be taken with a grain of salt, so what game designers is it you are talking about?

Even so, there is no failing an initiative roll.
Any comparison of initiative checks are indirect, they are simply use to determine the order in which you act and you do not fail at acting just because you roll low.

The argument is iterated quite a few times in this thread. If anyone would like to hear why initiative checks are not opposed rephrased roughly 20 times this is a must read.

[Talic]

Agreed. While it is quite possible to turn an initiative advantage into a 1st turn win, the only thing that initiative determines is WHEN you act. Not if.

Since all players who roll initiative get to act, and the result of the check only determines the order of action, and in no way determines the success or failure of any action, it cannot be considered an opposed check.

[Solo]

Originally Posted by Talic

Agreed. While it is quite possible to turn an initiative advantage into a 1st turn win, the only thing that initiative determines is WHEN you act. Not if.

When going against Tippy, losing initiative does inteed determine if you will act. Thus in this case, it is an opposed check.

[Talic]

Originally Posted by Solo

When going against Tippy, losing initiative does inteed determine if you will act. Thus in this case, it is an opposed check.

While I can appreciate such high esteem of tippy's ability, the initiative check does not make his opponents unable to act. It's his spell combos that do that. Thus, the initiative does not equal failure. Tippy equals win. Subtle distinction.

[Emperor Tippy]

Originally Posted by Talic

While I can appreciate such high esteem of tippy's ability, the initiative check does not make his opponents unable to act. It's his spell combos that do that. Thus, the initiative does not equal failure. Tippy equals win. Subtle distinction.

Yah, someone is getting in my sig.

So when is this challenge going to happen? Because I will win unless The Joker wins initiative, attacks me, hits, and deals enough damage to kill me.

[Talic]

Originally Posted by Sir Giacomo

So, you are basically accepting the following:

9) No effects of 9th level usuable.

This is my only contention, as it is a rule that clearly favors the UMD character.

While I agree that certain items are widely considered "broken", and should be disallowed from the competition (e.g. Candle of Invocation), the mechanics for activating scrolls is quite different for UMD vs Caster.

UMD, to activate a scroll of level 9 spell (CL 17), must make a DC 37 UMD check. For a level 16 character with cross class UMD (9 ranks at level 16), Skill focus, Magical aptitude, and a MW tool (+7 bonus total), to achieve 95% accuracy, you need +19 more. With no LA +1 core races allowed, that puts you at cha 18 + 4 (levels) + 6 (item) +4 (book) = 32, or +11. Now, you still need +8 more to get the chance of success a straight level 16 caster with nothing else has. You need +9 more to get the chance that the same caster with an orange ioun stone has.

Level 16 Caster, to activate a scroll of level 9 spell (CL 17), on his class list, must make a DC 18 CL check. With naught but caster levels and an orange Ioun Stone, this check is an auto succeed.

Thus, removing the ability to use 9th level scrolls, even after factoring in their GP value for 1 shot items at x5, per the DMG, p.199, is a rule that works to the UMD character's advantage, and is not a fair or balanced rule.

If the game of D&D is balanced, let's play it as such, Giacomo. Allow the 9th level scroll. To do otherwise is to admit that the game is NOT balanced, which is exactly the opposite message you've been saying all this time.

[Solo]

Question, Giacomo: If the caster can't use scolls of spells he'll get later on (in one level) what is your monk doing with scrolls of spells he can't cast at all?

[Emperor Tippy]

Ah, it doesn't really matter. If its allowed them my Disjunction Scroll's will take care of most of the fight. It its not then I already PMed you what I planned on doing.