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Thread: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
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2009-04-18, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Great page 154/141. I feel better now...like I hope Sizemore does.
SpoilerOotS Fan-fiction (An alternate OotS-verse starting after page 603. If you want to read it go here)
bad Erf-poetry
and other sillyness.
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2009-04-18, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-04-18, 05:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Zappa's hair is too dark. I'm still sure it's Doug Henning, who besides being a magician, was really into trancendental meditation, making him perfect for the setting.
I'm also convinced now that Janis is NOT a direct reference to somebody in real life, since she's obviously going to be at least a semi-major character now, and is not a good physical match for either of the musical Janis's from the 70s.I have my own TV show featuring local musicians performing live. YouTube page with full episodes and outtake clips here.
I also have another YouTube page with local live music clips I've filmed on my own.
Then there is my gaming YouTube page with Kerbal Space Program, Minecraft, and others.
Finally, I stream on Twitch, mostly Kerbal Space Program and Minecraft.
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2009-04-18, 05:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Even though this page doesn't have any action or startling revelation it has some really awesome insight into the world of a Hippiemancer and it shows a new sizemore mayhaps.
GENERATION 20: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. This is a social experiment.
"This hand of mine is burning red! It's loud roar tells me to grasp victory!"
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2009-04-18, 05:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
What the other side would do is not a sufficient basis for morality.
As for Webinar and Dora, they saw what Lord Hamster's side did to their men -- they were burned alive. They were not "homicidal enemies" who wanted to kill the caster because they liked killing. They wanted revenge for what happen to their side. (Ah, the source of never-ending feuds!) Of course, Webinar and Ansom did have some stiff sticks well implanted in their backsides. But, though foolish, they were loyal and noble.
And, frankly, it can be easier at times for soldiers to understand fellow soldiers on the other side than their own citizens at time. Though on different sides for political or other reasons, but for that difference, they could be friends rather than enemies. (Of course, that does not apply to zealots, but that does not seem to be the case here. And Ansom would have been officious, but not homicidal in the absence of conflict.)Last edited by rosebud; 2009-04-18 at 05:40 PM.
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2009-04-18, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
"Our Land"
Apparently, I'm a Neutral Good Human Ranger/Wizard (3rd/2nd Level)
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2009-04-18, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Actually, I think it's quite sufficient to know what an enemy will do to you if you don't do it to him first. This is war, and so-called "high morality" takes a holiday in war. The fact that the coalition would kill Hamster and his men hasn't been debated. Parson's only moral alternative to allowing his men to die meaninglessly was to let them die meaninglessly with everyone else. A crappy choice to be handed, but I think he did the only morally acceptable thing by killing everyone.
I understood homicidal to mean that they were bent on killing Parson and his dudes. Whether they enjoyed it or not--or whether it was due to revenge or some other motivation--is all the same to someone in Parson's situation.
I'm also not sure if this particular phenomenon--which is quite real in our world--applies to erfworld. There can be no friendly exchanges with troops of another side if the rules dictate that auto-attacking takes place between unled stacks. Stacks with a leader are different, but then that brings in personality and motivational issues within the leadership. I just don't see that happening.
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2009-04-18, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Aye.
Janis is full of Win.
Also, Parson may eventually mention an acquaintance of his. A man named Andrew Wiggin. Y'see, Andrew probably taught Parson that, when you have to fight, you win - and you fight not to win just that particular battle, but all the rest of the battles too...
::thumbs up::
As far as the previous poster's reference to Baron von Wulfenbach - I would add the example of Havelock Vetinari's Ankh-Morpork.
Going to the mention of how Parson sees people close to him as people, and the masses of troops arrayed against him as "units" or "things" - that's nothing special; I believe that's how most of standard Humanity envisions opposing forces and populations, in war. It's certainly how modern military training attempts to condition individual members.Last edited by Wadoka; 2009-04-18 at 06:14 PM.
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2009-04-18, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
You should really finish reading that book some time.
SpoilerYes, yes, I know you read it. But the point is, I really don't think WOO GENOCIDE was the intended moral. It was intended to attack that line of thinking, not show how awesome it is to blow up planets and genocide your enemies.Last edited by Aquillion; 2009-04-18 at 06:13 PM.
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2009-04-18, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-04-18, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
SpoilerRead 'em all, Aqui. I believe the books separate the act of "finishing" an opponent, from having to commit genocide. It's possible to achieve the same effect through acts ruthless and just sufficiently overwhelmingly horrific enough, to inspire the opponent to never want to offer opposition again, without going whole-hog genocidal. Harry S. Truman, for example.
::doublethumbsup::
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2009-04-18, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-04-18, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Janis thinks that Parson can change Erfworld and bring "peace" by breaking things... in particular; rules.
That probably makes sense. The "rules" call for things like auto attack. If the rules are broken, units won't HAVE to attack, they will have other options.
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2009-04-18, 06:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
HEY!
What do I have to do to avoid being a "pixie"?
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2009-04-18, 07:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
One of the things about a good story is the ability to make the story entertaining on several levels. In this case, we have Erfworld bringing up issues of philosophic impact on the nature of war, peace, reality, paradigms, and personal truths - and all that happens in just this last comic!
Erfworld is a wargame world. It is a game where the inhabitants have been fighting a war probably since they heard the phrase, "The Titans have left the world." Although there has been no definite time-frame given for how long that has been, it is easy to see that the endless war has been going on for so long that there is no cultural memory, no history, nothing to indicate that there is anything but war.
Janis, as a Hippimancer, is striving for peace, but in a world like Erfworld, that's impossible. Hence we have the introduction of Parson and the possibility of breaking reality until Erfworld is possible.
But bringing an end to a forever war can't be done with a wave of the hand, or even with a spell that costs 500,000 Schmuckers. It's going to take a lot of hard work, and things will break.
Someone like Sizemore doesn't realize how bad things are and how much worse they will get before they get better. It's not unlike dealing with a doctor who knows how to heal a broken bone after you've been used to having several quacks just help you get by. By now, the bone has healed wrong and has to be re-broken.
For everyone who wants a more in-depth look at the quality of being ruthless, I highly recommend Sun Tzu's The Art of War (I got the pocket-sized version translated by Thomas Cleary - quite inexpensively, I might admit). Sun Tzu epitomized the value of being a ruthless general as a way to underline how horrible war really is. Parson, whether he read it or not, is definitely illustrating its fundamentals. As someone else in this thread already pointed out, fight to win, not just this battle, but the war. By the value of ruthlessness, make people realize just how horrible war is so that they look to peace instead.1. Have fun. It's only a game.
2. The GM has the final say. Everyone else is just a guest.
3. The game is for the players. A proper host entertains one's guests.
4. Everyone is allowed an opinion. Some games are not as cool as they seem.
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2009-04-18, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Another problem with the current world "rules" is economy. Right now it seems money making is down to "mining" or "mercenary" work, although trade might be in there somewhere, it is probably strictly in a "settlers of catan", or raw resources only.
I doubt, for example, that there is room for a value added economy or a service economy, other than mercenary work that is. So with no resources to trade or gold to mine, a poor nation has to attack to acquire new mines or tradeable resources.
Wargames usually involve fights for basic resources wood and gold Warcraft style. Or strategic resources, Aluminum and Oil in Civilization. Game design encourages fighting over resources even when trade is possible. Mines are capped and designed to run out. Strategic resources become obsolete and new ones must be acquired.
This is looking more Warcrafty though than Civ. Thus technological progress isn't the goal, it's fighting wars. So technology should remain relatively static throughout the series, like Warhammer or Warcraft. Resources will be basic, gold, gems, trees or whatever.Last edited by ishnar; 2009-04-18 at 07:25 PM.
"If I could just interrupt your stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic for a moment to interject." -- Erfworld
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2009-04-18, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Hark! An avatar drawn by Kate Beaton!
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2009-04-18, 07:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
You can also farm, apparently.
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2009-04-18, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
I would assume that farming allieviates the otherwise higher cost of popping food by buying it.
Last edited by Fjolnir; 2009-04-18 at 08:22 PM.
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2009-04-18, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-04-18, 09:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
I remember that time. Every gm felt free to throw in whatever suited them, or throw out whatever they found inconveninet. Every time you brought an old character to a new game you had to rewrite it because the rules were so different. But no matter how different, it was all D&D to us. And when i showed up at the LASFS clubhous on saturdays there were always enough people for 3 or 4 games. Today, i hang out at my FLGS every weekend and so far i've only found 2 other players interested in a new campaign :(
BTW: I think the Perrin Conventions were the forst step towards rounding out characters with skills beyond their basic function.
One of the house rules that just about everyone used, was that you couldn't level more than twice in a single play session (or in some cases, you couldn't level more than twice in large battles that extended over multiple play sessions).
So, even if you somehow managed to kill a god (I'm using this as an intentionally ridiculous example), or even an entire pantheon of gods....
...well, here you go, here are your two levels.
Perhaps Erfworld uses the same house rules?NOGENERATION Aleph(0): Copy this into your sig and add or subtract 1 whenever you feel like it. This is a pointless experiment.
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2009-04-18, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-04-18, 09:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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NOGENERATION Aleph(0): Copy this into your sig and add or subtract 1 whenever you feel like it. This is a pointless experiment.
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2009-04-18, 09:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
No, she's modelled on the style of R Crumb, who illustrated one of Janis Joplin's
albums and liked his women extra beefy.NOGENERATION Aleph(0): Copy this into your sig and add or subtract 1 whenever you feel like it. This is a pointless experiment.
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2009-04-18, 11:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Breaking Enoubh Rules for Peace
Not sure if what Parson did was considered a pyrrhic victory even. Pyrrhic victory implies that the attacking side 'wins,' but at a huge cost. The attacking side here didn't win on three levels - it did not get to take over Gobwin Knob (it's not even confirmed that Gobwin Knob actually is no longer a city, though it's a possibility); it did not kill Stanley (which was the entire point of the war); it did not kill Parson or cause him to surrender (which was one of Ansom's later goals) - in fact in a pure 'attrition' matter, one could argue that Stanley's side won, actually. On the RCC's side - no survivors (though if you want to count them, Jillian, Vinny, 2 of Jillians gwiffons, and 8 of Vinny's bats survived). On Stanley's side, Stanley, 3 casters, 1 chief warlord, between 1 and 3 Knights, and at least 6 dwagons survived. By a pure numbers matter, either way, Stanley's side arguably -won-.
So it's a pyrrhic.. um... loss? :) I dunno what to call it actually.
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2009-04-18, 11:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
One could argue that Parson does want peace. He's just is unable to get it given the current nature of Erf Remember among the strategies he was considering, 2 of the strategies he liked were inherently non-violent ones. One was absolutely peaceful - Sue for peace/diplomacy. A second was Retreat.
The only problem were they were not feasible given the situation. Other options he used also minimized casualties, like Melt Away, Call the Cavalry, and Divide and Conquer, each of which are not exactly strategies which would cause a huge death count, but could still be effective.
Ultimately he used the Ender's Game 'Superweapon' option, but you could tell it wasn't something he particularly enjoyed using.
It's status quo. You got it right the first time.Last edited by Jon Pander; 2009-04-18 at 11:14 PM.
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2009-04-18, 11:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Breaking Enoubh Rules for Peace
It is game canceled due to the wrath of God. Actually, it reminds me of the war of 1812 in a way. Americans are taught that they won the war of 1812, the Canadians are likewise taught they were victorious. In reality, the war ended because a hurricane rolled in an destroyed both their navies and thus their ability to wage war effectively. What is worse, a tornado also happened to rip through the heart of Washington DC just after it came under British control.
Although actually it still can be called a Pyrrhic victory if Gobwin Knob won and the coalition decided to send another army and conquer what is left of Gobwin Knob. Thus, even in victory, the victor is undone because he used up all his resources to achieve the result, while the loser still has plenty of resources to continue the war. You are assuming the attacking side has to win, when in fact the original Pyrrhic war, the defenders won against a larger number of Romans, but depleted their numbers enough in doing so that they ensured their future destruction.
Of course in reality, the coalition was disbanded and it is unlikely anyone really has the will to fight, especially since their is no prize except a capital site which might become an active volcano at some random point in the future.Last edited by Glome; 2009-04-18 at 11:32 PM.
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2009-04-18, 11:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Breaking Enoubh Rules for Peace
Still means the British lost if the they did not accomplish their goals at all. :) (not only take over, but keep it for any sustained period of time).
Pyrrhic victory would mean they won but at a cost that made the cost-benefit analysis of war not worth having gone to war in the first place.
Except there isn't going to be any new army coming in, according to Vinny. So they lost.
In a pure numbers game even, Stanley ended the war with more soldiers than 0, so he 'won'... which probably explains why Stanley's side gained levels despite what might be considered 'retreating.'
I wonder if Erf is like Civilization or Starcraft, where for a certain amount of schmuckers and time you can just start a new city in a place where there was no city before.
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2009-04-18, 11:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 154 - tBfGK - 141
Yknow, after thinking about it, i've come to the following belief.
Stanley's side won.
Stanley's side took grevious losses in order to win.
Stanley's side is the one that had a pyrrhic victory. Which I know doesn't make much sense since usually the pyrrhic victory is won by the side which has the advantage going into the battle/war/etc.
But a pyrrhic victory is, in this case, preferably to the only alternative, which would be total annihilation of their side. :)
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2009-04-19, 01:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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