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Thread: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
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2010-04-04, 07:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
You assume the Norse Gods simply see the future. They do not. They are fated to die exclusively in Ragnarok and cannot be slain by any method other than their fated death. Fate itself defies Kratos' attempt to slay them, not simply his lack of existence within their timeline.
To put it plainly: No.
See: Thor, Freyr or Fenrir(who consumes the SUN and the MOON).
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2010-04-04, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-04-04, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
It's been a while since I brushed up on all things Norse, but my recollection is that the Norns (aka Fates) are quite physical. According to one version I recall they weave men's fates on looms made of bone, with skulls as warp-weights and a weft of intestines, which is probably a good indication that starting something with them is not a good idea.
Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
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2010-04-04, 07:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-04-04, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
Remember how I was wishing for the peace of oblivion a minute ago?
Yeah. That hasn't exactly changed with more knowledge of the situation. -Security Chief Victor Jones, formerly of the UESC Marathon.
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2010-04-04, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
As written: No
Many of the Aesir can be only killed by the ones destined to do so.
Therefore Kratos has no chance unless he:
1) Become part of the prophesy
2) removing the prophesy
Trying 1 would also be very harder to impossible. The destined killers would be reluctant to let Kratos join them as they know they don't need him and would make the fight less glorious by including him.
As for forcing himself into the fight... well since Thor dies seconds after killing the World Serpent from MASSIVE POISON DAMAGE!, I don't see him getting far. Who's gonna tell Kratos about the mistletoe arrows anyway. If Kratos plans to kill Loki, good luck killing Baldr.
Even if 2) happened, it would be hard since the most of them are walking cheese. Not only that, it's against they're nature to go "soft on someone" in a fight. The Greeks were not weak but the Norse kick butt by definition. They must be great fighters because they must die in epic fights.
Because of all the luck, non-existing allies, and basic difficulty; Kratos has almost no chance.Gitp's No. 1 Cake hater
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2010-04-04, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
no... no I don't assume they see into the future. However, I do assume that the existence of an extraplanar being that kills Gods for a living where there once was not one would have the teensiest bit of an effect on how some of the Gods die in their fate. Kratos is not part of the world. He is not the child of Norse Mythology's time stream. They are fated to die in Ragnorok, but they are so fated in a world without Kratos. Even if they still have to die during Ragnorok, it doesn't rule out that Kratos can't do it because he is an unmeasured quantity in Norse History.
Last edited by Graymayre; 2010-04-04 at 08:53 PM.
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2010-04-04, 09:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
Dudes...destiny means bupkis where Kratos is concerned. The entire second game was all about him murdering the personifications of Fate, despite their repeated insistence that it was not his destiny to survive his journey through their island, or succeed in his campaign against the gods. I repeat: the entire second game is about Kratos Screwing Destiny on a massive, epic scale. He can, quite literally, Fight Fate and succeed.
For that matter, while there's no denying the inherent badassery of the Norse Pantheon, they are also, by definition, more mortal than the Greek Gods. The Olympians were ageless and immortal all on their own; the Aesir's lifespans were limited by the Norns, and they required the Apples of Youth to stay vital.
Kratos is a man who kills Gods. It's what he does. If he can eliminate one pantheon, there's very little reason he shouldn't be able to eliminate another.Take my love, take my land
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2010-04-04, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-04-04, 09:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Last edited by Crimmy; 2010-04-04 at 09:57 PM.
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2010-04-04, 10:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-04-04, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
Honestly, when I think of Kratos and the Norse pantheon, I think they have a lot in common. Don't think of it as "Kratos vs some godly punks who are the Olympians but more mortal," think of it as "Kratos vs a large amount of people who are basically him but more so." The Greek and Norse gods alike were both very human, but the Greek ones were a bit more...I don't know what to call it. Unchallenged? Top-o-the-heap? God-cheesed? The Norse gods fought and tricked back and forth with their enemies all the time, but I can't recall the Olympians having any issues beyond bickering with each other past the Titans.
As an outgrowth of this, the example of "the Norse gods get old without the apples and they won't last forever" doesn't seem to make them appear wussy so much as highlight this. They're restricted and challenged by more stuff than the Olympians, and then they go out and do some pretty amazing things anyways. Does rowing out hundreds of miles to sea, disparaging the whales your fishing buddy's catching as small fry, using an ox's head to fish up the serpent that circles the world that's also fated to be your arch-nemesis and killer, then slinging your mountain-cracking weapon right at its skull sound like something Zeus would do... or Kratos?
Besides, the Norse gods all know they're going to die. How impressive is killing someone who was going to die anyways, just later down the road? There's no glory in deflating hubris there - they're neck deep in fatalism already.
"Decapitated by a madman with giant machete-chains? Well, I was going to get eaten by a wolf, and my son's set to drown in an ocean of venom...and...uh...I think a lot of the rest are going to go when the entire world gets set on fire. Oh, you killed that guy already? Weird, that wasn't supposed to happen."
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2010-04-04, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
Oh, believe me, I have no illusions that the Norse Pantheon isn't badass, nor any desire to make such a claim. Quite the opposite. Thor rightfully remains the gold standard of manliness to most people, and Loki is pretty much my favorite mythological character of all time.
Just saying, there's not really a reason that a man who has not just fought fate, but literally slaughtered it should have any more trouble Siegfried, Thor, or Odin then he did against Theseus, Ares, or Zeus.Take my love, take my land
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2010-04-04, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
But the same methodology Kratos used to murder the Olympians sort of undermines the assumption behind him being able to murder the Aesir. Kratos, last I checked (I haven't seen how GoW III's story goes beyond the basic knowledge of "he kills everyone") is a guy. A psychopathically enraged guy, a guy who's turned being angry into a super power, a guy who's part-god but definitely not a god, a guy nevertheless. He fights full gods, people who are out of his weight class, and he wins through sheer badassness. He does not by any definition rate higher than Zeus on the Mohs scale of Godly Pwnage at the end of GoW II, but he beats him up.
The Norse pantheon could then very well be less god-powered than the Olympians. But then, so was Kratos, and, as you said, he killed the fates and reversed his own death and beat the stuffing out of Zeus.
In crude form:
If
Kratos < Olympians (godly cheese)
But
Kratos > Olympians (beating the living stuffing out of)
Then
Aesir < Olympians (godly cheese)
Should not automatically equal
Kratos > Aesir (beating the living stuffing out of)
Due to the apparency of
(Godly cheese) < (ability to beat the living stuffing out of with sufficient supplies of badass)
Again, this argument's probably invalid if Kratos gains a substantial amount of non-badass-based power (turns into a god or something similar) in GoW III, which currently and deliberately lies outside my knowledge until I can get a good look at it firsthand.Last edited by Drakyn; 2010-04-04 at 11:01 PM.
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2010-04-04, 11:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
I know next to nothing about the God of War games but I have been reading this thread and I see that Kratos kills the Moirae (the Greek Fates) in one of the games, and some people say this is an argument that he can similarly overcome Fate in the Norse pantheon. I disagree.
The Moirae--Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos, or "spinner," "apportioner" and "unturner"--literally represent the weaving or controlling of Fate, as their names clearly imply. That has a kind of human activity to it, and a human, even a goddess, can be killed, so I kind of get that even if it's silly.
Of the Norns however, a strong case can be made that they are Time itself and everything that happens within it. Urd, Verandi and Skuld are literally "that which happened," "that which is happening" and "what shall be," all forms of the "to be" verb, and the idea that there are three chief Norn goddesses weaving the past, present and future most likely was imported through contact with the Romans. (Or got combined in the traditions with the role of the Volva, the Norse wise-women.)
So if the theory holds that the Norns are almost purely conceptual, how on earth do you kill that? How do you kill Time? Aside from visiting this forum anyway. ;)Last edited by Dacia Brabant; 2010-04-04 at 11:36 PM.
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2010-04-04, 11:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-04-05, 12:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
In Greek mythology, I'm pretty sure that harming the fates is something that is legitimately impossible, and something that even the gods and titans were incapable of, making killing them on the same scale as killing the fates in North Mythology: It shouldn't be possible, at all.
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2010-04-05, 01:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
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2010-04-05, 01:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
Nah.
Kratos is too whiny to roll with, say, Tyr.
"WAAAHH! I feel bad about murdering my family and Zues won't make me less sad feeling!"
"See this hand I lost? Put it in Fenrir's mouth sos we could bind him up. Needless to say, he got mad, bit it off. Notice how I didn't whine like a baby."Remember how I was wishing for the peace of oblivion a minute ago?
Yeah. That hasn't exactly changed with more knowledge of the situation. -Security Chief Victor Jones, formerly of the UESC Marathon.
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2010-04-05, 01:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
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2010-04-05, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
Killing the Fates in Greek mythology may or may not be possible. Thwarting them however, if you are powerful enough, is. Zeus makes it abundantly clear in the Iliad that if he so chose, he could save Sarpedon and Hektor, even though both are fated to die at Troy. He decides not too since apparently the other gods don't like it when he starts screwing with Fate, but he clearly is capable of doing so.
Interestingly, Thetis never asks, and Zeus never considers, saving Achilles.Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
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2010-04-05, 02:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
Fighting Fate is something even the Gods do with care. Ragnarok, the Twilight of the Gods is fated to be. For Kratos to kill off the Norse Gods prematurely would be to anger those who hold the threads of his existence, the Norns.
You don't fight the Maiden, the The Matron, and. . .The Other One.
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2010-04-05, 02:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
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2010-04-05, 02:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
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2010-04-05, 02:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
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2010-04-05, 05:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
The part many forget is Kratos killed all his allies and won't be getting anymore anytime soon. Not even Loki. The Norse won't just sit there like the Greeks and let K get to their fates, get super weapons, or get some outside help .
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
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2010-04-05, 07:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
Well, in Norse mythology, the Sun and Moon are sparks from Muspellheim, so I don't see anything too impressive about Fenris or his children consuming them (other than some serious heat resistance, perhaps).
Thor has some impressive feats, I guess - wrestling old age, partially lifting the World Serpent, hooking it on a fishing line, killing a bunch of giants with Mjollnir, and so on. Eventually he kills Jormangund and dies, I suppose. I don't see any of that, other than perhaps the wrestling, as being beyond the Greek gods - Atlas bears the heavens perpetually, Zeus destroyed most of the Gigantes (some were killed by other gods).
As for Freyr, other than killing one giant with an antler and losing his magic sword, what did he ever do?A System-Independent Creative Community:
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
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2010-04-05, 07:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon
This isn't memetic. This is an entirely factual account of what Kratos did in the second game. Do the God of War games chop up and take huge liberties with mythology for the purposes of epic action? Of course! No one has ever claimed it to be an accurate mythology simulator. But it is an excellently designed game with smooth controls that allow you to easily dish out carnage as a one-man army in the ancient world.
Take my love, take my land
Take me where I cannot stand.
I don't care, I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.
Defender of
Don't make me trot out Smite Moron!
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