Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight.

[hamishspence]

You only have one of each though.

You fire a shield-breaker, a turbo-penetrator, and a hellfire- then you're out of special rounds.

[Cheesegear]

Eversor > Callidus > Culexus > Vindicare.

Unless you psyker-spam the Culexus' weapon. But, that's a lot of extra points, and he's still only T4, and still only has a range on 12" and makes a nice target for getting shot at because of it.

[Oslecamo]

This is wrong. He has all three types, every game. He can only use one at a time though (once ). I think that's where you misread.

Yeah that's what I intentended to say, stupid english semantics...

Everything else in your post is spot-on. Which is kind of weird...

We think alike more than you think.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I usually run a Callidus and two deathcult assassins in the like 2 games I've got to use my witch hunters in.

I guess I need to find a model for a third deathcult. Or buy another 2 and convert the spare into something groovy.

[Keris]

Yes, you can take Telion in Daemonhunters, as he is part of a Scout squad. He's also Troops.

You'd be on shaky grounds doing so. While the FAQs don't expressly forbid taking Telion, the recent 'Ard Boyz tournament rules forbid upgrade characters when taken as allies. So clearing it with your opponent first would be a good idea.

D- Vehicle penetration of 3d6 will average at around 10,5. Not really that hot. Good luck scoring a penetrating hit even in an ork trukk.

It's still a sniper, so it counts as strength 3 against vehicles and each of those 3d6 are rending. That gives it an expected penetration of 14.5, and a maximum penetration value of 30.

[Trixie]

I don't know what you mean, but, they're Fearless, which amounts to the same thing if you're thinking what I'm thinking.

Nope, I meant that Daemonic Instability rule, about taking wound after certain failed LD checks.

Shrodinger's Unit. He does none of that at the same time.

But he has all of this build in, letting you maximize his performance each turn.

He can even miss and/or fail to wound.

Everything can.

Over the course of a whole game, he puts out six shots (that he can fail with) at best.

Which equates to 6-7 wounds at best.

How many wounds can a glorified one-use Eversor do?

Wait for it...

~5-7...

Except that he can't do them in 36" radius, he can't blow Land Raiders/Monoliths, and finally, he has to pray enemies don't have any means of taking away his I5, of which there are many.

Or that they simply don't gun down his 4+ save without camouflage.

This is nowhere close to enough. Especially when you consider Telion, who is less than half the points.

Are you kidding? Tellion doesn't lessen cover saves, has a glorified S4 AP5 Boltgun, which can barely scratch a regular Marine, can't fire into melee, has no anti-vehicle capability, and can use harsh language on everything with high T.

To compare, Vindicator can easily hurt even T10 and AV14 fores, not to mention killing enemies Telion can't even touch to various circumstances.

Yes, you can take Telion in Daemonhunters, as he is part of a Scout squad. He's also Troops.

Which means nothing, as he can't be used as one of the 2 mandatory choices.

You're sorely overestimating that ability. Thanks to things like Drop Pods, fast moving units and other things that close distances quickly - like 24" Teleporting Relentless Librarians...

So... this useless unit is so dangerous enemies have to waste whole units with Drop Pods and ICs to try to kill him?

Congratulations, this means rest of your army kicks his ass with that much less resistance.

The Vindicare also lasts about three seconds in Assault.

He lasts exactly the same amount of time Eversor will. Sure, he won't kill as many guys, but if he is in assault, you're doing something wrong.

No. Unless you like your T3 Inquisitor getting shot at.

Wait, we aren't taking about that 12-odd men in retinue Inquisitor anymore, are we?

Suggestion from this thread was to take them both, when to me, either retinue or chimera will suffice, unless I don't see something.

Do you even read the Codex?

I stated about two million times I read them at FLGS, when I have the opportunity to borrow them, or, in two cases that sadly aren't C:DH, when I take them off-the-shelf.

Meaning, I usually skipped "wargear" section when reading about things that are in C:SM too, to save time. Ok, they have different Machine Spirit, I can live with that.

With 12" Assault move; He has D6+3+1 (two weapons) I5, WS5, 'Poison' Power Weapon Attacks. What Wraithlord? Oh? You mean the one he just killed on his own in the first turn (Infiltrate)?

Let me point out this works out to exact same weapon Vindicare has. Except he has pinning, rending, range, and deals damage over time.

He craps on anything short of pimped-out ICs. Then when it comes to the opponent's turn, he explodes if he dies.

With S5, AP - attack. This might make impression on Guard, but most units worth unleashing him will laugh at that. Even tactical Marines will ignore 2/3 wounds caused by this by armor saves alone.

If you target the right unit, or give him back-up in the form of Death-Cult Assassins, he lives exactly as long as he's supposed to.

And you can't shield Vindicare by some other unit as above... why, exactly?

Put him on your objective, shielded by your troop claiming it, and no one will reach him, while he shoots anything trying to reach them and locked in combat with your troop.

(I really get the feeling you don't even read the Codex?)

Yeah, I obtained details about their equipment and points by using magic-8-ball

A-Most expensive assassin.

Wrong. Callidus is more expensive, Culexus about the same.

B-ONE shot per round. This is the big main point. Sure he hits on a 2+, but he only wounds on a 4+, meaning he won't be doing anything at all half the game. He has the special ammo but...

Let me point out that most units don't have even that 4+ to wound, and people are happy with 5+. Let me also point out that it is 4+ against T10 enemies, which can't be touched by anything less than S8, and in this case, 4+ works out to S10 weapon.

Meaning, if you have Vindicare, enemies don't have units that you can't wound.

C-It can only use one special ammo at a time, and only one kind per game.

Again, wrong. 3 special shots per game, that is, about 50% of the time.

So let's say you see a librarian. It has two wounds but also an invulnerable save. So either you use the two wound shoot and pray you both wound and he fails the inv save(25% chance of sucess), or you just can't head-shot him in one round.

What invulnerable save? 5+ at best, and not every Librarian, at that. You have almost 50% chance of removing expensive, 110+ points unit from the table. That's it, Vindicare just returned his points. See Terminator with Assault Cannon? No problem. Land Raider? Sure. Daemon Prince? One-two wounds less when you look at him.

A termie? You still only wound on a 4+ and got one single shot to pull it out. And next round you can't use shield breaker again.

Shield Breakers are good against Eldar or Daemon units with invulnerables. Two wounds is better against anything else.

So you'll have quite an hard time geting your points back.

Yeah, two turns against most enemies

The vindicaire really can't "head shot" heroes as he can't combine all his special ammos,

So? He takes one-two wounds, pins his unit, and shoots it at his leisure until he kills him.

so his best bet is taking out veteran sergeants/warlocks/other elite infantry, but he'll be taking one per round best.

Check how much some of these cost. The Trickster, for Example, or Anvil of Fenris - that's 180-200 points right there, and that's just one Codex (SWs).

If your oponent floods the field with guardsmen squads or mobs or orks/nids, well, the vindicaire isn't doing that much.

Against mobs? Sure. Still, there always will be a good target for one shot per round - nobs with power klaws, CREEEEED!, Zoanthrope, every swarm list contains at least half a dozen prime targets for him.

Plus, most swarms can't do much against Vindicare, so he can simply wait until they close, minus sergeants, of course, whip out his pistol and begin shooting his AP2 weapon twice per turn. If they close, that is, as swarms are easy to pin.

D- Vehicle penetration of 3d6 will average at around 10,5. Not really that hot. Good luck scoring a penetrating hit even in an ork trukk.

Let me point out Rending. On 3D6. You were saying?

Unless I really misunderstood something, it works out to about (on average) 13.75 AV penetration. That's a chance to kill units 2-3x more expensive than him.

A suicide unit that goes out with a bang.

A bang that is about the same as Vindicare's, as which creates far less tactical problems.

Also the cheapest assassin, so he'll end up killing more points than he's worth if you do it right.

Check the points difference - that's less than one SM, I think.

[Keris]

Nope, I meant that Daemonic Instability rule, about taking wound after certain failed LD checks.

Well, Daemonhosts expressly don't have that. "Due to their nature, Daemonhosts are not subject to Daemonic Instability."

He can't blow Land Raiders/Monoliths, and finally, he has to pray enemies don't have any means of taking away his I5, of which there are many.

The Vindicare can't actually deal with Monoliths that well, the Living Metal rule means that attacks can't get bonus armour penetration dice against it, negating the benefit of the turbo-penetrator round, and perhaps Rending as well.

Unless I really misunderstood something, it works out to about (on average) 13.75 AV penetration. That's a chance to kill units 2-3x more expensive than him.

I'd be interesting in knowing how you arrived by that figure. I used Excel to work out the results of ~50 000 rolls, and found the mean to be 14.5, the median to be 14 and the mode to be 13.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Which means nothing, as he can't be used as one of the 2 mandatory choices.

I know lots of people never take more than 2 troops (including me sometimes) but doing so is a really bad idea.

[Zorg]

Eversors have Melta-bombs, so can take out monoliths (with a bit of luck, though using the neuro gauntlet would be better as it a 6+ to glance with his basic attacks stat, same as the M-bombs but more) and Land Raiders.

Also the Eversor adds D6 attacks on the charge to a base of 3 plus one for two CC weapons, so can do 5-10 power attacks on the charge, wounding on 4s.

If you look at making points back as a measure of success then he'll just have to kill 5-6 marines to be 'successful'. With sweeping advane so long as he stays alive 1 turn he can wipe out very large units.

However I think simply looking at units by how much they kill is foolish - there is how they influence the enemy's deployment or movement, and their fire distribution. An Eversor may only kill one unit, but if he diverts tow or three more to finish him off and that works with the battle plan he'd be a success.
If a vindicare inflicts 7 wounds in a game, but not on anything that ends up mattering (ie he splatters all the HQs and heavy weaps, but none of the squads break and stay on the objectives) he can kill ten time his points value and be a failure.

[Trixie]

The Vindicare can't actually deal with Monoliths that well, the Living Metal rule means that attacks can't get bonus armour penetration dice against it, negating the benefit of the turbo-penetrator round, and perhaps Rending as well.

Erm... I read that, and AFAIR, Living Metal only affects extra dice added. Such as Chainfist, Rending, or Melta. Vindicare TP doesn't add any dice, just uses stated amount, so I'd say he isn't affected by that, and is in fact best Monolith-killer in the game

EDIT: I googled this.

Vindicare works against Monoliths and similar effects. It's official - Vindicare >>> Eversor

I'd be interesting in knowing how you arrived by that figure. I used Excel to work out the results of ~50 000 rolls, and found the mean to be 14.5, the median to be 14 and the mode to be 13.

Quick mental math, which means you're probably correct. Still, that makes my argument even stronger.

Eversors have Melta-bombs, so can take out monoliths (with a bit of luck, though using the neuro gauntlet would be better as it a 6+ to glance with his basic attacks stat, same as the M-bombs but more) and Land Raiders.

Erm... Melta Bombs don't work for above reason. He can't. All he can do against Monolith is to mewl helplessly like freshly-born kitten

Also the Eversor adds D6 attacks on the charge to a base of 3 plus one for two CC weapons, so can do 5-10 power attacks on the charge, wounding on 4s.

Averages, please. Maximums mean nothing, if they were, Khorne's Daemon Weapon would be one of the best, not worst, CC weapons.

If you look at making points back as a measure of success then he'll just have to kill 5-6 marines to be 'successful'. With sweeping advane so long as he stays alive 1 turn he can wipe out very large units.

I don't. Which is why I find Eversor rather very poor in comparison to Vindicare - sure, he can splat a few guys, but that's that. Vindicare can shape the entire battlefield with his "Red Light On" shots and blown vehicles.

[Winterwind]

To compare, Vindicator can easily hurt even T10 and AV14 fores, not to mention killing enemies Telion can't even touch to various circumstances.
[...]
Let me point out that most units don't have even that 4+ to wound, and people are happy with 5+. Let me also point out that it is 4+ against T10 enemies, which can't be touched by anything less than S8, and in this case, 4+ works out to S10 weapon.

Firstly, T10 could be touched by S7, too.
Secondly, there is nothing with T10 in the game. The only thing that has T9 are Hierophant biotitans (maybe some other biotitans I've forgotten or don't know about, too), which are available only in Apocalypse.
In the regular game, there is nothing that has more than T8. And even that is rare; the only things that have that are C'Tan and Wraithlords.

The Vindicare can't actually deal with Monoliths that well, the Living Metal rule means that attacks can't get bonus armour penetration dice against it, negating the benefit of the turbo-penetrator round, and perhaps Rending as well.

Yes, Living Metal negates Rending.

[crazedloon]

So I realize that what I am about to say is going to mean very little to all you mathhammer people, however I might as well say it

I have played with all 3 assassin types (I ignore Calluxes because I do not have a model) and here is my review

Vindacare is a stat line and aility trap. As Trixie has been saying he looks awesome in paper. You put him on the board and your opponent thanks you for wasting points. He wound only 50% of the time.... not that good at all and when he wounds against the characters you wish to use him against at best he does 1 wound normally which is only a slight inconvenience to IC or whole units (because units do not depend on 1 model) 2 wounds with his 1 special shot is also not that good because most characters have 3 wounds and thus are still effective.

I love the Callidus due to her unique deployment method (though not as good as the old version of it ) her a word in your ear can be fantastic to screw up some precariously placed units, her phase sword makes her a IC killer. Her flamer is nice vs low leadership units but where it shines is vehicles which can automatically get hit and not shoot the next turn.However she fails at taking out units and thus is only really good at killing IC or important single models so swarms ignore her. Another problem with her is her lack of grenades (the biggest downfall) so units placed in cover make her cry

Eversors are fantastic for their points. They do not have the special weapons that make all the other assassins looks so nice, instead he just has things that work. Though for the most bang for your buck he is best used against smaller elite units (without IC or specials) which he can kill in 1 round of combat as larger rank and file become a tar pit where he will die and not make points back (just like any other assassin)

If you want to kill IC take a Callidus if you want to kill units take an Eversor all other assassins (baring death cult) are a waste of points

[Keris]

Erm... I read that, and AFAIR, Living Metal only affects extra dice added. Such as Chainfist, Rending, or Melta. Vindicare TP doesn't add any dice, just uses stated amount, so I'd say he isn't affected by that, and is in fact best Monolith-killer in the game

By your logic, chainfists and melta bombs should work against a Monolith, since their 2d6 for armour penetration is a "stated amount". But by your own admission and the rule itself, they don't.

EDIT: I googled this.

Vindicare works against Monoliths and similar effects.

My apologies, I wasn't aware outdated FAQs were still legal. Oh wait, they're not.
This is the Necron FAQ, and turbo-penetrator rounds are no longer stated as an exception to the Living Metal rule.

Averages, please. Maximums mean nothing, if they were, Khorne's Daemon Weapon would be one of the best, not worst, CC weapons.

5-10 is a range, not an average. And as a range with an even distribution, it's more meaningful than an average. But if you insist, the expected value is 7.5 attacks on the charge.

[Oslecamo]

But he has all of this build in, letting you maximize his performance each turn.

Well, from your last post, it looked like you were claiming all his shots were turbo-boosted hellfire shieldbreakers at the same time, wich may actualy make him viable.

Everything can.

However, most stuff out there gets more than one shot per turn, meaning your chances of wounding something aproach 50%. By the price of the vindicaire I can get two squads of guardsmen with special and heavy weapons that only with some horrible luck can't kill something every turn.

Which equates to 6-7 wounds at best.

Very at best. Mathhammer says you'll do only 3-4 probably.

How many wounds can a glorified one-use Eversor do?

Wait for it...

~5-7...

Really? 4 base +3 average charge means 7 attacks, and then he explodes inflicting plenty of extra wounds. Screw not having armor piercing, it will hit a lot of dudes and some of them will fail their saves.

Except that he can't do them in 36" radius,

At least he can move and attack behind line of sight.

he can't blow Land Raiders/Monoliths,

Melta bombs and neuro-gauntlet. Also monoliths are immune to rending as far as the necron codex itself cares.

and finally, he has to pray enemies don't have any means of taking away his I5, of which there are many.

Well, not really last time I checked. And if they have, I highly doubt they can outfit all their squads with it.

Or that they simply don't gun down his 4+ save without camouflage.

That works for the vindicaire as well. Any cheap deepstriking squad will take him out before he can do anything.

To compare, Vindicator can easily hurt even T10 and AV14 fores, not to mention killing enemies Telion can't even touch to various circumstances.

Like already pointed out, there really aren't T10 enemies out there.
And the eversor can wound them in a 4+ also, except he can actualy attack more than once per turn.

So... this useless unit is so dangerous enemies have to waste whole units with Drop Pods and ICs to try to kill him?

For an unit costing over 100 points and no melee ability whatsoever? Sounds like a juicy target to me.

Congratulations, this means rest of your army kicks his ass with that much less resistance.

For 1 turn. Then you're 100 points down and the unit your enemy used to stomp on the vindicaire moves to kill something else.

He lasts exactly the same amount of time Eversor will. Sure, he won't kill as many guys, but if he is in assault, you're doing something wrong.

He's an expensive single model with 2 wounds, 4+ saves and no close combat ability. He's screaming to be assaulted.

Altough you may not even need to. A droped squad of raptors with meltas could deepstrike, melta the hell out of him on the shooting phase and then move on to something else in the charge phase. Ditto for any assault weapons.

Basically, the eversor can seek safety by jumping into melee and inflicing a lot of wounds before going down. The vindicaire cannot seek safety in melee and will need to last the whole game to be worth it.

Let me point out this works out to exact same weapon Vindicare has. Except he has pinning, rending, range, and deals damage over time.

That's precisely the problem. 4 Wounds along all the game assuming he lives to see it. Pinning is nice but there are counters to it, but rending is redudant when you're already wounding on a 4+ and piercing armor anyway.

The eversor may go down in the 1st turn, but he'll take down a lot of stuff with him, while the vindicaire needs to survive the whole game and to be worth it.

With S5, AP - attack. This might make impression on Guard, but most units worth unleashing him will laugh at that. Even tactical Marines will ignore 2/3 wounds caused by this by armor saves alone.

The surviving ones you mean. An eversor actualy has a pretty good chance of just stomping over a 5 man squad of tactical marines and not taking a single wound in return.

Funny thing is you'll need to swamp him with infantry to take him down, but the more you swamp him the more dudes will die when he explodes.

And you can't shield Vindicare by some other unit as above... why, exactly?

You're much better protected from shooting while meleeing other enemies than when standing out on the open.

Put him on your objective, shielded by your troop claiming it, and no one will reach him, while he shoots anything trying to reach them and locked in combat with your troop.

He's still over 100 points model inflicing around 0,75 wound per turn, counting with hellfire and turbo boost.

Wrong. Callidus is more expensive, Culexus about the same.

Meh, still second more expensive.

Let me point out that most units don't have even that 4+ to wound, and people are happy with 5+. Let me also point out that it is 4+ against T10 enemies, which can't be touched by anything less than S8, and in this case, 4+ works out to S10 weapon.

And again, let me point out that there are no T10 creatures, and the eversor can wound anything in a 4+ anyway.

Meaning, if you have Vindicare, enemies don't have units that you can't wound.

Guardsmen squad with lascannon and plasma gun. They can also wound anything! And deal more than one wound per turn.

What invulnerable save? 5+ at best, and not every Librarian, at that. You have almost 50% chance of removing expensive, 110+ points unit from the table. That's it, Vindicare just returned his points. See Terminator with Assault Cannon? No problem. Land Raider? Sure. Daemon Prince? One-two wounds less when you look at him.

Daemon prince could be taken down by guardsmen/consprict swarm as well. The landraider will need a lot of luck on the rolls even with rending.

Shield Breakers are good against Eldar or Daemon units with invulnerables. Two wounds is better against anything else.

Yeah, two turns against most enemies

And you can do each once per game. Assuming you wound them.

So? He takes one-two wounds, pins his unit, and shoots it at his leisure until he kills him.

You mean the IC with super leadership? Sure he'll fail his pinning test, sure.

Check how much some of these cost. The Trickster, for Example, or Anvil of Fenris - that's 180-200 points right there, and that's just one Codex (SWs).

And that's probably why nobody uses them. One wound for lots of points just doesn't cuts it, even in casual games.

Against mobs? Sure. Still, there always will be a good target for one shot per round - nobs with power klaws, CREEEEED!, Zoanthrope, every swarm list contains at least half a dozen prime targets for him.

You mean the nobs with two wounds? Creed whose power was already used at the begining of game(and has 3 wounds anyway)? Zoantrope with inv save AND two wounds?

Plus, most swarms can't do much against Vindicare, so he can simply wait until they close, minus sergeants, of course, whip out his pistol and begin shooting his AP2 weapon twice per turn. If they close, that is, as swarms are easy to pin.

Swarm armies are all about closing in fast or unleashing lots of dakka. Either will just run over the vindicaire. If you're forced to use his pistol, it already failed.

Let me point out Rending. On 3D6. You were saying?

That now it averages at 13. Decent, but not really landraider buster.

Meanwhile anything with a lascannon is wounding on a 2+, ignoring armor and inficting instant death on anything with T4 or less. And will be cheaper.

A bang that is about the same as Vindicare's, as which creates far less tactical problems.

Again, he needs to last the whole game to do it. Better to inflict lots of damage right at the start of the game.

Check the points difference - that's less than one SM, I think.

Or three guardsmen. Or one guardsmen with an heavy weapon. All of wich can inflict multiple wounds per turn.

To finish, as crazedloon pointed out, the Vindicare looks really spiffy, but when you put him in the table he just doesn't work. I've seen it myself being used and it really never does anything great for it's cost. If the oponent can't take it right away it then it shoots down a couple of enemy models and it's player is left wishing he had a squad with more dakka.

[Zorg]

Erm... Melta Bombs don't work for above reason. He can't. All he can do against Monolith is to mewl helplessly like freshly-born kitten

He still can hit it either once with the bomb for 8+D6 pen, or attack 5-10 times with his neuro gauntlet, glancing on 6's (the same as the bomb). So he can damage it, potentially quite badly if he's lucky. On average he'll get one and a bit glances - not great but that's why you don't use an Eversor to kill a monolith, you use him to kill a Destroyer Lord instead.


And I don't think anything is T10, Angron is only T6 and the Forge World Great Unclean One is T9.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The Vindicare's good at killing imperial guard platoon leaders, shutting down those pesky orders. That's about it.

I prefer the Callidus for her special rules but can see why the Eversor is generally nastier (unless you're killing assault termies). I want to take a Culexus against eldar at least once though .

[Lycan 01]

You have the Codex, right?
Page 21. Still, whatever you choose, the 'compulsory' HQ and Troops must be chosen from the parent Codex.

Page 30-1 tells you what Inducted Units you can take. Because the IG Codex has been re-written, make sure to check the IG FAQ regarding what you can and can't use.

Also print the the Daemonhunters FAQ, which gives the GK Land Raiders Machine Spirit and Assault Vehicle. You want these. You really, really do. With DHs particular brand of 'old-school' (3rd, not 4th) LRCs, it makes them really, really good.
Sad, but true; This means that there's a difference between Land Raiders (in the Dedicated Transports section) and the Grey Knight Land Raider/s in the Heavy Support Section.
Grey Knight Land Raiders also may only transport Grey Knights.

B&C Strikes again. You'll need this list.

Ah, right. Forgot about the whole "Compulsory units have to be parent army" thing... Still, I could do the AoBR termie conversion first and run a "Command Squad + 2 Vet Squads + GK Termies" list for awhile, until I get more Imperial Guard and/or DH units... If I decide to go with Daemonhunters, of course.

Both.
Without the buffs, your Inquisitor is crap. So, you need them for that.
And
Inqusitorial Henchmen have the stats of a Guardsman, except with Ld 8 and a 6+ Save. And they come armed with a laspistol and CCW for 2 attacks each.

You also have Acolytes, who can take up to 15 points worth of stuff. You can give them Artificer Armour to take the hard saves (for Assault Inquisitors). Some others give them Storm Bolters and Carapace Armour. Witch Hunter Acolytes can take Mancatchers - which are great if you use them properly. But, those are for WHs...

Warriors;
Veteran Guardsmen give Plasmaguns as BS4 and a 4+ save. But, I wouldn't waste my Warrior slots on them. Since you can get them as Troops.
Combat Servitors come with Power Fists...With 1 Attack. The joy...
Gun-Servitors give Plasma Cannons and Heavy Bolters. Do this.

Remember, Page 13;
"Any profile increases an Inquisitor may Benefit from due to his henchmen remain in effect even if the Henchman that afforded the increase is removed from play."

The Inquisitor keeps the buffs even if the retinue member that gives it dies? *insert evil laughter here*

There is no reason not to instantly take 3 Familiars. They function as ablative wounds for your Acolytes and Warriors (who are more valuable), and let your Inquisitor walk around with an I5 Force Weapon.

So they're dispable wounds, and the Inquisitor keeps the Initiative bonus even after their dead? Yes, I can see the wisdom in taking those...

I also can't remember where I read it (it might be in the WH Codex), but, it is permissible to model your Inquisitor's Wargear on his Henchmen (freeing your Inquisitor to look as badarse as you want him to), as this represents his Henchmen handing him his weapons when he requires them.
...It's how the Cherubim carting the Bolter around makes sense.

That makes sense. It would give me an opportunity to make some pretty wicked looking models, too.

Inquisitor Lord; Psycannon, Force Weapon (or Null Rod), [Extras]
x3 Familiars
x3 Acolytes; Storm Bolters and Carapace Armour
x3 Gun-Servitors; x2 Heavy Bolters and Plasma Cannon
x2 Sages

Inquisitor: How would one model a Psycannon?
Familiars: I have 1 Servo-skull, and could probably make 2 robo-ravens.
Acolytes: 3 Guardsmen with bolters, perhaps?
Servitors: Hm. No Servitor models, but 2 spare Heavy Bolters. "Counts As" advice?
Sages: Techpriest and either a scratch Cleric or Scribe, perhaps?

Total 12 models. Jump in a Chimera*; Multi-Laser and Heavy Bolter

*I recommend getting Inducted Guard, and buying the cheap Chimeras, and then in Turn 1, your Inquisitor just yoinks the Chimera from the Guard - as he should.

And then I just cart them around the battlefield, blasting away at the enemy with Heavy Bolters and plasma/psycannons? Why bother with the Force Weapon and stuff then, if I won't be in Assault?

Your Inquisitor is I5, WS5. And BS5. He can choose to pass Morale and Pinning Checks - even if failure is normally automatic.
...All the Light Infantry on the board just died.

DH are only slightly better at Shooting by access to Psycannons.
WH Inquisitors are better in Assault due to Power Stakes, Mancatchers, Crusader and Chirurgeon Henchmen, decent Assault Powers and just general ability to wreck psykers.

Hm. I see...

[Arcanoi]

I'd take two Familiars and a Mystic, because if you're playing shooty, the Mystic's ability to shoot something that Deepstrikes is pretty powerful, not to mention he's the same price and stats as the Familiars, if I remember.

EDIT: The only time I've ever seen Vindicares used effectively was a hilarious game of apocalypse involving 4k points of Space Wolves versus 2k points of Slannesh Chaos Marines using the Emperor's Children Warband deployment and 2k points of Daemonhunters using two Assasinorum Killteam deployments. Six Callidus assasins moved six enemy units 36" inches each, after which the three Lash Princes moved them even farther, straight into the guns of the Noise Marines, where they were promptly torn apart. One unit moved was a unit of Terminators, and all six vindicares shot at them, forcing six other units in the Space Wolf army to test for pinning each turn. I think the total casualties on the Emperor's Children/Daemonhunters were 3 callidus assassins, a vindicare, a Prince, and one or two squads of marines. Everyone thought the match great fun, except for the Space Wolf player, but he was still a sport. The next game he played was 1500 points against the Noise Marine player, and he won that game rather handily.

[Oslecamo]

Servitors: Hm. No Servitor models, but 2 spare Heavy Bolters. "Counts As" advice?

Meh, servitors are of the easiest models to improvise in my opinion. They're basically immprovised cyborgs and by the art you can see there's plenty of variety around. So...

1-Pick any humanoid model.
2-Pick spare vehicle bitz.
3-Cut pieces of the humanoid model and glue vehicle bits on their places(heavy bolter can be even replaced for a lost arm).
4-Scream WWWWAAAAGGHHHHH!!!!(optional)
5-Congratulation, you have a servitor!

[Cheesegear]

It's still a sniper, so it counts as strength 3 against vehicles and each of those 3d6 are rending. That gives it an expected penetration of 14.5, and a maximum penetration value of 30.

The Vindicare's rifle is not Rending. Since the Vindicare has the special 3rd Ed. kind of Sniper Rifle that hits on 2+ (it would anyway at BS5) and wounds on 4+. That's all it does. It's AP2 because it's a super-special Vindicare Rifle.
Turns out it is Rending.


Trixie, you claim to not even have the Codex (and now me having to explain to you just about everything I say makes sense now). We're telling you, that the Vindicare is simply not that good. Most of us do have the Codex, and, I hope at least a few of us have had experience with Assassins.

I've fought with and against Eversors. They are amazing. I'm flat-out telling you. The guy at Club runs an Eversor. It lasts exactly two turns almost every game. But, the damage it causes is pretty huge.
I've fought with and against Vindicares. They are simply not as good on the board as they are on paper.

We're telling you this. You can argue all you like, but you're still wrong.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The Vindicare's rifle is not Rending. Since the Vindicare has the special 3rd Ed. kind of Sniper Rifle that hits on 2+ (it would anyway at BS5) and wounds on 4+. That's all it does. It's AP2 because it's a super-special Vindicare Rifle.

Yes it is, according to the Witch Hunters FAQ. Which I suppose you could rules lawyer into saying that Daemonhunters Vindicares don't get rending if you're really that sort of person.

The codex says "is treated as a sniper rifle", therefore everything in the rules book about sniper rifles applies, despite the fact that since the old sniper rules happened to be summerised in the same sentance they also apply due to codexes trumping rule books.

Still doesn't make them that much better though.

[Cheesegear]

Inquisitor: How would one model a Psycannon?
Acolytes: 3 Guardsmen with bolters, perhaps?
Servitors: Hm. No Servitor models, but 2 spare Heavy Bolters. "Counts As" advice?

Psycannon? See those Grey Knights with Psycannons? Those are Psycannons.
Alternatively, make something about the size of a Heavy Bolter or Plasma Cannon, add gubbinz to make it look like it would ignore Invulnerables.

Search Google Images perhaps? It's what I do when I'm looking for ideas. Since Psycannons are a pretty dirt-common conversion, someone will have done it before.
Acolytes would do fine. They are just simple humans after all. If you've read Eisenhorn or Ravenor, you know what Acolytes are.

Jaq Draco had a de-Power Armoured Space Marine (an Imperial Fist, by the way), an ex-Callidus Assassin and a Squat as Acolytes; Ian Watson is awesome.

Servitors can look like literally anything you want. 'Mars Rover'-type things with a Heavy Bolter (use Thunderfire Cannon for inspiration) is nice. Just make sure to add the extra Laspistol and CCW.

And then I just cart them around the battlefield, blasting away at the enemy with Heavy Bolters and plasma/psycannons? Why bother with the Force Weapon and stuff then, if I won't be in Assault?

Then go with the Null Rod.
...But I like using my own Psychic Powers...

You wont be Assaulting much. But, I can pretty much guarantee that enemy ICs and super-units will be trying to get to your ICs and super-units. You have played the game before...

Yes it is, according to the Witch Hunters FAQ. Which I suppose you could rules lawyer into saying that Daemonhunters Vindicares don't get rending if you're really that sort of person.

Haven't read the FAQ recently. But okay. I believe you. Fixing previous post.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Trixie, you claim to not even have the Codex

All further arguments from Trixie are invalid now. Without the codex, or at least a fast way to look at a codex whenever you want, don't argue.

Especially if you've never played whatever you're talking about.

[Cheesegear]

All further arguments from Trixie are invalid now. Without the codex, or at least a fast way to look at a codex whenever you want, don't argue.

That's what I said. Except less blunt.

Especially if you've never played whatever you're talking about.

If you could repeat this about 500 times, that'd be great. But, the Mods might have a problem with that.

[Ricky S]

Tournament I watched today.

Spoiler

Show

I watched a tournament today and my god, the amount of players who were complete retards in regards to the rules. I knew almost all of the rules and have only been playing for about 4 months. Its not so bad but instead of checking the rule book they just winged it and made up whatever they thought was appropriate. A lot of players made extremely rookie mistakes in designing their armies and playing with them, such as turning the tank and not the turret to fire thus exposing its side armour, or taking gun drones on all their tanks (extra kill points all round), or only taking 2 troop choices. Whats worse is that a lot of the players did not even know the rules for their own armies.Certain players were also deceitful taking dice that were obviously not hits or wounds, or saying "yea that units Ld is 9 so I passed" when it was obviously Ld 8.

Also there were so many players whose armies were not painted. That in itself does not bother me but when they are also broken and there is so much glue that you can not see where the joints are it frustrates me to no end. This is especially true for younger players who seem to have far more money to spend on the hobby than they should be allowed and butcher minatures. They paint them like they would at a pre-school finger painting session (There are of course always exceptions but I generally hate younger players as they are annoying as hell and control the game).

The entire point of the hobby is to paint and build beautiful armies and then have games with them, not just slam together some minatures and battle. GW should seriously consider bringing back the rules about having to have a painted army. A couple of the games the models were so awfully done (ie only base coats and the models were collapsing and glued onto the bases in stupid ways just so that they were just on bases with no thought to how they are supposed to stand) that I couldnt tell the difference between them and their opponets. The combat in the middle looked like a mismatch of plastic stuck together with no sort of unit cohesion or anything.

There were however some fantastic armies and conversions. Their was a Dark Angels deathwing army that was painted fantastically. The army didnt do well (too few units) but it was fantastic to see. Another player had a superb chaos demons army with every unit painted in bright clean colours with great details.

There were a lot of Dark Eldar players, far more than I expected there would be, a couple of Nids armies, lots of Space Marines, a sisters of battle, a necron, a few ork armies, a demon army, a few Tau armies, an eldar army and an Imperial Guard army.

The majority of battles were close fought and the victories not too decisive, there were however some battles that were complete victories. The Dark Angels Death Wing army was anhilated by an opposing Tau army. There was a drop pod heavy Black Templar army that got steamrolled by a mainly infantry ork army with a few killa kans and a deff dread. There were 24 players I believe and 36 games played altogether. I didnt stay to see who won the tournament however but as it was judged on how well the armies were painted and sportsmanship I am guessing a lot of the 'undercoat' armies wouldnt do too well, even if they won all the games.

[Cheesegear]

A lot of players made extremely rookie mistakes in designing their armies and playing with them, such as turning the tank and not the turret to fire thus exposing its side armour, or taking gun drones on all their tanks (extra kill points all round), or only taking 2 troop choices.

That's actually pretty common almost everywhere. As not everyone who goes to a tournament is a 'tournament-level' player. Despite the fact that I do make powerful lists, I do try to have fun. Some people like fun. It's on Page 2 and everything.

Whats worse is that a lot of the players did not even know the rules for their own armies.

A lot of them? That's kind of weird.

This is especially true for younger players who seem to have far more money to spend on the hobby than they should be allowed and butcher minatures. They paint them like they would at a pre-school finger painting session (There are of course always exceptions but I generally hate younger players as they are annoying as hell and control the game).

There's no way around the younger gamers. The only way to deal with them, is to actually try and explain the game to them. No, kids aren't always the best painters, but, honestly, they're kids. Sometimes you just have to make exceptions. And, since you're at a tournament, they're going to get penalised for it anyway. It's really not your place to 'hate kids because they can't paint'.

The entire point of the hobby is to paint and build beautiful armies and then have games with them, not just slam together some minatures and battle.

It really depends on what you want to get out of the hobby.

Poor painting, I understand. Poor modelling (especially having broken models on the table during a tournament) is usually not acceptable.

...From your story, I have to wonder whether you even had a TO? Complaints and rules queries should have been springing up everywhere.

Was it a GW-run event?
Or was it a local-club event where noobs hang out?

If it was a GW-sponsored event, I am shocked. Shocked and appalled and not amused. If it was a local event 'for everyone who wants in', I'm not really all that surprised.

I also have a tiny feeling that you could be over-exaggerating the extent of horribleness. But, I wasn't there.
But, then again, given what you said about some things, I know I'm more lenient than you are.

[Ricky S]

Ok, ok, I admit I am exaggerating a fair bit. I was just disappointed by the amount of players with unpainted armies. I had this picture in my mind that a tournament would have all the best players both in painting and gaming. My expectations were probably too high. I know that people want to play with their new armies but I really think they should paint them first before playing with them.

There were a few armies that were shocking (no exaggeration)! They were just base coated and not even fully built. And then they were built so you could see where the glue had dried and they weren't even kids! They didnt have flying stands and bits of the model had snapped off which is pretty unexplainable when they havent even been painted yet. The children, yea, I generally dislike, no thats too mild a word, I hate them them, but thats my problem (note: I am never rude to them, I keep all bad comments to myself and have definately never made one cry).

2 of the 24 armies were 'shocking' standard
around 6 of the 24 were just base coated
around 6 of the 24 were really well done
the others were painted to an average standard that looks coherent but werent particularly noteworthy.

The thing about the rules was true enough though with players using random rules from 4th ed and not knowing the rules for their army (and then not checking the rule book).

[Cheesegear]

I had this picture in my mind that a tournament would have all the best players both in painting and gaming.

BWAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
That doesn't even happen at the best of times, except for massive GDs with strict entry requirements. Not even I have my entire army painted.

I really think they should paint them first before playing with them.

Then there'd be pretty much no games happening. Painting is the thing that most people care the least about. Like painting, nobody cares if you can see glue lines.

They were just base coated and not even fully built. And then they were built so you could see where the glue had dried and they weren't even kids!

All armies must be at least base-coated. Though not even being fully built is pretty bad. Again, in a tournament, hardly anyone is there to look at paint jobs. Tournaments are for battles and very little else; Having your army painted is actually a bonus. Not a requirement.

Again; Was it GW-run? Or Independent?

[Selrahc]

Vindicare's used to be better back in 3rd edition. Back when sergeants had full access to the armoury. My Khorne sergeants used to be around 65 points each, and were the most dangerous part of the unit. Two vindicare shots could repay his cost and substantially blunt my assault. Of course my men were in rhinos so he wasn't guaranteed to get the shot, but still...

They were at their absolute best against lost and the damned. The way I played them was with powerful aspiring champions and boss mutants, backed up by 30 ablative wounds. The Vindicare could absolutely cripple the army. Especially since without the Champion's Mutants only have a leadership of 6.

Chaos was probably the best target for a vindicare due to the crazy armoury, but other factions had more potential to upgrade their squad leaders as well. It was much more likely you'd get an array of good, but fragile targets. It was a lot easier to get into close combat back in 3rd edition(Allowed to assault from transports, allowed to consolidate from unit to unit), so squad leaders needed to be beefed up for close combat just as a failsafe.

Nowadays a sergeant is likely to be about 30-40, and isn't nearly as dangerous. Vindicares are now pretty rubbish. Their targets have gone away.

[Oslecamo]

Servitors can look like literally anything you want. 'Mars Rover'-type things with a Heavy Bolter (use Thunderfire Cannon for inspiration) is nice. Just make sure to add the extra Laspistol and CCW.

Nitpick, but servitors are cyborgs and must have humie bitz, as the imperium can't or doesn't want to make fully automonous machines.

Selrahc:good point there. Target picking was much more valuable when "sergeants" could pimp themselves to hell and back while trusting the mooks around them to absorb wounds.

But now "sergeants" for all races are much cheaper, and IC can be singled out in melee, so the vindicaire's ability to choose targets didn't aged all that well.