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2010-09-17, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
A maximized Reciprical Gyre...
“Wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair and all the terrible things that happen to us, come because we actually deserve them? So now I take comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the Universe”- Marcus Cole
This has become my philosophy!
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2010-09-17, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Ebonwood
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Give him no reason to know you intend to make him dead, then at random cast Silenced Quickened True Strike and Silenced Disintegrate from behind. At his spellbook.
(Note: This can only be expected to work on actual wizards as played in-game, not the hyper-paranoid hypothetical superwizards that have contingency plans for everything that like to loiter around this forum...)Last edited by Drakevarg; 2010-09-17 at 09:38 AM.
If asked the question "how can I do this within this system?" answering with "use a different system" is never a helpful or appreciated answer.
ENBY
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2010-09-17, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
You disintigrate his spell book, congrats now hes pissed off and you used those high level slots and he still has everything prepared and nukes you back to oblivion.
Hitting his spell book doesn't really do anything unless he has yet to prepare his spell for that day.
And im not sure about others but when i play a wizard i tend to keep a second spell book secreted away in something like a portable hole hidden elsewhere in such occasions (i have had **** GMs have my spellbook get stolen in the night before)
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2010-09-17, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Ebonwood
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Last edited by Drakevarg; 2010-09-17 at 09:51 AM.
If asked the question "how can I do this within this system?" answering with "use a different system" is never a helpful or appreciated answer.
ENBY
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2010-09-17, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Ohio (woo.......)
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2010-09-17, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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2010-09-17, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Ohio (woo.......)
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2010-09-17, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
- Location
- Ebonwood
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2010-09-17, 10:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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2010-09-17, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Maryland
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
You carry your spellbook in an openly visible, identifiable fashion?
I essentially never do. Not just because of paranoia, but because with low strength, carrying capacity is not my strong point. Plus, I don't need my spellbook mid-day. Therefore, it gets stashed somewhere safe. Typically on me, though.
The paranoia is why I carry a fake spellbook at my side, trapped all to hell.
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2010-09-17, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
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2010-09-17, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Ebonwood
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Not a standardized Knowledge category for one, and have you ever actually taken ranks in that yourself, for two?
Sense Motive: See above
Honestly? Yes. I just leave it on my belt because I'm too damned lazy to put it anywhere else.
Then again, I'm a blasty-mage with a fondness for fire trapping everything I come across. So I'm probably not the best mage to take advise from.Last edited by Drakevarg; 2010-09-17 at 10:21 AM.
If asked the question "how can I do this within this system?" answering with "use a different system" is never a helpful or appreciated answer.
ENBY
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2010-09-17, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
With this you are mixing real world with d&d ^^
skills in d&d have a very specific and narrow field of use, if you try to substitute one skill with the other (which makes sense in the real world) you are talking about rap and not raw anymore.
If one of those two would grant the other synergy one could argue the point but this way...Last edited by Emmerask; 2010-09-17 at 10:19 AM.
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2010-09-17, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
No kidding Sense Motive is WIS based? Why would i ever use it to compare that a WIS and INT skill can overlap...
Your right though Knowledge Tactics is a D20 modern skill but i have taken it in conjunction with fighters with the leadership feat. And as there is really nothing else to figure out battle plans in DnD it would likely just be straight INT.
And binding a book closed then hanging a book is less lazy than just tossing it in your backpack when you are done with it? 0.o Lazy fail. :P
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2010-09-17, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Non T1 caster? Don't suppose that allows a Rainbow Servant (text over table) Warmage to work . Because if it does, you can totally just out-caster them.
For a noncaster, you must assume a couple things, though.
1) You can find out reliably about where they are teleporting
2) You can then follow in some manner. Otherwise it is futile other than to make something with a half dozen carrier effects on a crit and then keep hoping that your first attack is a critical and they aren't immune to it.
Otherwise, and more seriously, for a non-caster, I think the Vecna-blooded template is a must for giving absolute immunity to divinations, then a ton of stealth (Remember Darkstalker!). Most likely I'd suggest an archer of some sort. Take the scry out of scry and die, and stay out of sight while sniping them bit by bit.Thanks, Telasi for the spectacular OotSatar!
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In Debbie D's awesome "The Three Goddesses" game -Ireth, the shyest nymph you'll ever meet, bardic servant of the goddess of love.
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2010-09-17, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Ebonwood
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
I misinterpreted the point of your statement, then.
Your right though Knowledge Tactics is a D20 modern skill but i have taken it in conjunction with fighters with the leadership feat. And as there is really nothing else to figure out battle plans in DnD it would likely just be straight INT.
And binding a book closed then hanging a book is less lazy than just tossing it in your backpack when you are done with it? 0.o Lazy fail. :P
Well, to be more accurate, I have a leather bookbag. Which, while not ATTACHED to my belt, hangs along side it. Relevent point being that I make no effort whatsoever to obscure it's location.If asked the question "how can I do this within this system?" answering with "use a different system" is never a helpful or appreciated answer.
ENBY
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2010-09-17, 10:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Misinterpreting happens to the best of us :D
I dont mind if the DM isnt a master tactician, but i expect my 30 int wizard to be pretty dang good at figuring things out, thats probably surpassing even mentat levels of reasoning (dune reference, look it up for those who dont get it :P ) and my wizard is probably a whole heck of alot smarter than me.
Bind as in wrapping it in leather straps to keep it closed and tieing it to my belt.
And if you just drop it in a bookbag then it cant be targeted by distintigrate, the bag could but then the spellbook drops onto the ground.
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2010-09-17, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- Washington, DC
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Spellthief is built to take down magical defenses, drain spells, and go supernova on casters with the Arcane Strike feat. The only problem is that against non-casters you're essentially a nerfed Rogue who needs to borrow spells and spell-like abilities from party members to be useful.
Incarnate can get Spell Resistance 5 + (4 * essentia invested) via the Spellward Shirt. It can be topped out at around SR 40ish with the right feats and magic items, making an Incarnate practically immune to most (but certainly not all) magic. He can also get a ridiculously huge number of bonus hit points, Evasion, Energy Resistance, and high AC (including high touch AC).
I would also mention that dozens, if not hundreds, of builds can get 300+ damage per round with a very high chance of success against pretty much any target. That's enough to kill almost anything. So all you really need to do is not be surprised and win Initiative.
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2010-09-17, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- Finland
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
But what does any of those do against a caster? I mean, casters feast on anyone trying to deal pure damage (even if they don't bother becoming immune to damage; even simple contingencies tend to pre-empt those, as well as Foresight+immediate actions) and Spellthief gets abilities that are still inferior to what you could have if you just cast real spells yourself.
And Incarnate's maximum spell resistance is still relatively easily pierced though it does force casters to rely on something like Assay Resistance or True Casting. Not to mention Incarnates' offense isn't very scary vs. a caster.Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
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2010-09-17, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
First off, not every caster has Craft Contingent Spell. Even among those who do, using the full compliment every day would be inordinately expensive.
Therefore, a caster who is taken by surprise cannot be reasonably assumed to have a contingency in place to counter whatever tactic is used. He might, but a significant amount of luck would be involved.
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2010-09-17, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Ebonwood
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
My point was that there's no point in rolling for tactics if your DM couldn't think up any better tactics than you could.
And if you just drop it in a bookbag then it cant be targeted by distintigrate, the bag could but then the spellbook drops onto the ground.If asked the question "how can I do this within this system?" answering with "use a different system" is never a helpful or appreciated answer.
ENBY
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2010-09-17, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Maryland
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
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2010-09-17, 11:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Oh, just because it's hilarious (first read about that trick in a post by The Mad Linguist):
Knowledge Affiliation. You can take away abilities, Spellcasting is an Ex Ability (or natural, the debate isn't over yet, AFAIK), so you rob him of his casting powers for 1 minute. Works for anybody who has been a teacher in a church with knowledge domain for 15 years or longer
The caster does get a save, though, Fort vs. 10+level+int modifier
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2010-09-17, 11:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
But if we go there then we should also call a wall with tapestry not Disintegrateable (with one cast) these are two different objects after all one covering the other.
A wall of stone proofs to be quite a formidable defense indeed consisting of millions of small objects which give each other cover (crafty bastards indeed!)
A painted wall with its paint cover is evil too ^^
Also the Human skin consists of different layers of skin so Disintegrate should really be called super skin peal (of doom!)?
Anyway the point is this: for the sake of ease of use a pouch with stuff in it is one object, a pouch with stuff, which all gets Disintegrated if hitLast edited by Emmerask; 2010-09-17 at 11:44 AM.
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2010-09-17, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- Finland
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Contingency can be triggered with simple "when I cast Nerveskitter" or "when I say X" or some such; no need for specific one for each scenario. All you need is a generic that teleports you away. Of course your main contingencies are Contingency and Instant Refuge. Crafted Contingencies are in place for when those fail. Optimally they shouldn't be necessary but if someone casts AMF next to you, you'll probably be happier that your contingency whisked you away and you spent some money than being stuck in said AMF.
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2010-09-17, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2010
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2010-09-17, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
SpoilerOriginally Posted by JaronKOriginally Posted by TyndmyrOriginally Posted by Zaq
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2010-09-17, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Maryland
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Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
No, no, objects are discrete items in 3.5. You don't get to claim that layers of skin are analogous to a book in a bag. Or an item in a chest. A tapestry COMPLETELY covering a wall would indeed block LoS and LoE to the wall. If you ever play ToH, this fact actually matters.
Paint on a wall is not normally treated as a discrete object in 3.5, but both a backpack and a spellbook are. Ignoring this would result in wierd things such as being able to scribe spells to your backpack.
This is true. However, nerveskitter is the only one listed that allows you to cast it when taken completely by surprise. With the aforementioned example, you will not know it's coming until you're literally hit by it.
And this requires the presupposition that the wizard is walking around with a contingency to instantly bail whenever he uses nerveskitter. It is MUCH more plausible to simply hide your spellbook than to instantly teleport away from any encounter.
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2010-09-17, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2010
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
OT, if Psions are tier 2 then Divert Teleport is a tactic I've been toying with for screwing with layered Contingent defences.
You don't attack the target directly but with a well rounded group of slightly less powerful patsies who are sufficiently threatening to start triggering the target's Contingencies.
Every time he uses something with the [Teleport] descriptor it's a DC~35 Will save to avoid the Lava Pit and the AMF.
Obviously doesn't work on anything with the Fire subtype but you get the idea. Adamantine cage on the ocean floor and an AMF is a good alternative.Trust The Computer, The Computer is your friend.
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2010-09-17, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one
Lvl 1 Rogue, Level 29 Centaur Monk.
Stack WIS, DEX, and CON for items and stat set-up.
Choose +2 Will Save, Fort, and Ref feats.
Focus on raising UMD to maximum.
Purchase a couple wish scrolls (you're 30th level so you'll be starting with a lot more gp.)
Take deflect missle.
Take the epic version of deflect any missle.
Take the epic version of deflect any missle infinite times per day back at the caster.
Imp Init.
Endurance.
Feat for cannot fail Fort saves on a 1.
Feat to roll all Will saves as Fort saves.
Staff of Mindblank.
Wand of Dimensional Anchor.
Glove of Storing + Wand of Nerveskitter.
Scroll of Contigency level 18.
Scroll of Anti-Magic Shell.
Contigency when a Mage's Disjunction would effect you - Anti-Magic Shell.
Staff of Hunting: Discern Location, Greater Scry, Greater Teleport.
This is a generic build with generic items, nothing too optimized but it will give just about any caster a run for their money.
Saving throw wise you should be untouchable to the wizard.
He can use orb, but it will instantly be deflected and returned back onto him. He cannot land rays or Orbs.
This has a chance of killing a wizard. Even an optimized one.
If all else fails, shapechange into a Lich. Wear item which grants immunity to vacuum. Greater Teleport into space. Wish wizard to you.
Also you can use Discern Location to find the wizard (if he does not have mindblank up) and Wish for an accurate and well painted picture of that place. Then you can greater teleport there.Last edited by Tharck; 2010-09-17 at 01:05 PM.