Why do mundane crafters exist?

[Jack_Simth]

A certain degree of intellect or wisdom is needed to make that adjustment and it doesn't seem, to me at least, that this is common amongst humanity. Some people, sure. Enough to keep society from being absolutely upended by the sudden introduction of limitless resources of any kind, I very seriously doubt it.

Wouldn't that depend on the person doling out the unlimited resources? Handle it over the course of a few generations, slowly upping things, and the grandkids don't think the same way about the resource as the grandparents.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wouldn't that depend on the person doling out the unlimited resources? Handle it over the course of a few generations, slowly upping things, and the grandkids don't think the same way about the resource as the grandparents.

How long before the guy who appears to be hoarding the resources gets called a tyrant and has hitters on his doorstep? Not long, I suspect.

Like I said, it'll eventually settle into something but there's a -lot- that can go wrong on the way and Murphy's Law is not a wholly inaccurate observation.

[Jack_Simth]

How long before the guy who appears to be hoarding the resources gets called a tyrant and has hitters on his doorstep? Not long, I suspect.

If this is a serious problem: How then, do rich folks exist presently?

Just don't make it clear that your production is, in fact, essentially unlimited. Take the Wizard with the Mirror Memphit familiar who's done a few tricks to get the caster level up (retrain one of the familiar's feats to Practiced Spellcaster, maybe). Theoretically, the Wizard could have the Mirror Memphit mass-produce sims via mass-producing sims of itself the first day in a great big chain. However: If the wizard simply has it produce one sim every so often, directly? It's not on-the-ground infinite, it's slowly increased production. That will slowly drive whatever good the sims are making into valuelessness by flooding the market - at whatever pace the Wizard wants.

[Nifft]

If this is a serious problem: How then, do rich folks exist presently?

Like this: https://www.theverge.com/2017/1/19/1...perty-lawsuits

On the mainland with a private army, like this: http://www.mountainliving.com/Homes/...spen-Compound/

[Jack_Simth]

Like this: https://www.theverge.com/2017/1/19/1...perty-lawsuits

On the mainland with a private army, like this: http://www.mountainliving.com/Homes/...spen-Compound/

It was a rhetorical question directed at Kelb_Panthera's "How long before the guy who appears to be hoarding the resources gets called a tyrant and has hitters on his doorstep? Not long, I suspect" comment. If whatever phrasing of "people will use force to take stuff from the guy who has in excess" was an insurmountable problem, then mega rich folks could not exist. Yet they do. Ergo, it's a surmountable problem (of some unspecified degree of difficulty) rather than an insurmountable problem. It's an evidence against Kelb_Panthera's own rhetorical question, done in a similar manner.

[Nifft]

It was a rhetorical question directed at Kelb_Panthera's "How long before the guy who appears to be hoarding the resources gets called a tyrant and has hitters on his doorstep? Not long, I suspect" comment. If whatever phrasing of "people will use force to take stuff from the guy who has in excess" was an insurmountable problem, then mega rich folks could not exist. Yet they do. Ergo, it's a surmountable problem (of some unspecified degree of difficulty) rather than an insurmountable problem. It's an evidence against Kelb_Panthera's own rhetorical question, done in a similar manner.

Mobs of people have historically used force to take stuff from other people who were perceived as having excess.

In retrospect, sometimes this will be seen as justice; other times, it's blatantly just mob violence.

It's a fact that current rich people still undertake rather extreme measures to avoid the threat of contact with the poor. So the idea that you can surmount the problem of behaving like a hoarder-tyrant seems to be supported (except when it's not and you get executed by some Robespierre expy), but also supported is the idea that people will indeed attempt to show up on your doorstep and use force to obtain fairness / justice / wealth-by-level.


tl;dr - People do seem to try to topple resource-hoarding tyrants. Sometimes they succeed. You're posing a false binary.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If this is a serious problem: How then, do rich folks exist presently?

They exist presently in a system where the rule of law takes precedent over much of human behavior and states have the monopoly on force. Even so, the last century was painted red with the blood of the wealthy (and even the slightly-better-off-than-average) being deposed as tyrants across much of the world. Resentment of those who have by those who have not is a very powerful motivator.

Just don't make it clear that your production is, in fact, essentially unlimited. Take the Wizard with the Mirror Memphit familiar who's done a few tricks to get the caster level up (retrain one of the familiar's feats to Practiced Spellcaster, maybe). Theoretically, the Wizard could have the Mirror Memphit mass-produce sims via mass-producing sims of itself the first day in a great big chain. However: If the wizard simply has it produce one sim every so often, directly? It's not on-the-ground infinite, it's slowly increased production. That will slowly drive whatever good the sims are making into valuelessness by flooding the market - at whatever pace the Wizard wants.

Keeping that a secret for any length of time will be, at best, very difficult and competitors won't be willing to just take it lying down. They have every motivation to find out how you're doing it and to put a stop to it, if they can.



To be clear; the rules of the game do very much make it possible to achieve post-scarcity societies. What they don't do is guarantee that the transition to, or final state of those post scarcity societies will be any kind of smooth or fair. To expect such is, at best, extraordinarily optimistic or, at worst, extraordinarily naive.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

It was a rhetorical question directed at Kelb_Panthera's "How long before the guy who appears to be hoarding the resources gets called a tyrant and has hitters on his doorstep? Not long, I suspect" comment. If whatever phrasing of "people will use force to take stuff from the guy who has in excess" was an insurmountable problem, then mega rich folks could not exist. Yet they do. Ergo, it's a surmountable problem (of some unspecified degree of difficulty) rather than an insurmountable problem. It's an evidence against Kelb_Panthera's own rhetorical question, done in a similar manner.

Plus the rich person in this scenario is (presumably) a wizard PC of reasonably high level.

[Psyren]

People do seem to try to topple resource-hoarding tyrants.

The problem is that we don't have any post-scarcity mobs to use as examples. Unless we're saying the infinite creation spell-traps are only owned by the elite few, which could happen, but doesn't fit Tippyverse by my understanding.

[Jack_Simth]

Mobs of people have historically used force to take stuff from other people who were perceived as having excess.

In retrospect, sometimes this will be seen as justice; other times, it's blatantly just mob violence.

It's a fact that current rich people still undertake rather extreme measures to avoid the threat of contact with the poor. So the idea that you can surmount the problem of behaving like a hoarder-tyrant seems to be supported (except when it's not and you get executed by some Robespierre expy), but also supported is the idea that people will indeed attempt to show up on your doorstep and use force to obtain fairness / justice / wealth-by-level.


tl;dr - People do seem to try to topple resource-hoarding tyrants. Sometimes they succeed. You're posing a false binary.

Who's talking binary? You'll also notice I did not call it a "non issue"? I explicitly called it a "surmountable problem (of some unspecified degree of difficulty)" - there are people who have the problem of being "big haves", that still have their wealth; we have an example of people succeeding at the problem of maintaining their wealth in the face of people who don't believe they should have it. Therefore, the problem can be overcome. I also called it "unspecified degree of difficulty". There are different strategies, depending on resources (both own and opposed) and situations. For some, controlling the narrative is the solution of choice. For others, forting up. Sometimes secrecy and proxies. Some arrange the surrounding situation to be favorable to them. I'm sure some just got lucky. Yeah, sometimes the big haves lose: It's not a sure game (whether that's because they don't always have a path to victory or because they don't always make a correct choice is up to historians to debate). But they also often win for a long, long time. So it can be won. There's enough rich people in the world at the moment that I'm going to call it not a particularly serious problem. One that needs to be prepared for? Sure. A normal person prepares for getting ill (sick leave at work, savings, a second income in the household, et cetera), getting laid off (savings, a second income in the household, unemployment insurance, et cetera), getting wrecking a vehicle (second vehicle, savings, knowing the bus route between home and work, et cetera), and so on. A fabulously wealthy person who is also wise (NOT ALL ARE!!!) prepares for famine, war, changes to the underpinnings of the current economic situation, and so on. How do they do it? I don't know; I'm not one of them. But such folk have persisted despite famines, wars, changing economic underpinnings, and so on. Which makes it obvious that it's a problem that can be overcome.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The problem is that we don't have any post-scarcity mobs to use as examples. Unless we're saying the infinite creation spell-traps are only owned by the elite few, which could happen, but doesn't fit Tippyverse by my understanding.

Until -everyone- has free access to the unlimited resources, it's not a post scarcity society yet. It's an artificial scarcity society. There will be people that try to stall things at that level to hold power over others. The stage of Tippyverse development that you're thinking of is actually pretty late stage. It's gotta get there by going through the prior stages from the creation of the game-world itself, through the development of the necessary magical techniques to make the traps and the spells involved, then the combining of those techniques into scarcity elimination ability, through the execution of reaching post-scarcity, and finally to the tippyverse proper.

After they reach the point that everyone has everything they'll ever need and can access it freely, that particular angle of conflict goes away once people adjust to the fact that material goods no longer have value. There -will- be a period in between scarcity ending and people understanding that material goods have no value and are still adjusting that will be tumultuous for one reason or other.

For instance, the institutions that stand to protect peoples' resources suddenly have no reason to exist and everyone involved in those areas suddenly have to find a new place in society. Given that violence is part-and-parcel to that task, some of them will turn those skills on innocents either out of frustration, at the behest of leaders with designs on power in the new system, or towards carving out their own chunk of the new power structures.

Even after -all- of that is sorted, people will still be in conflict over more abstract issues.

[Psyren]

Until -everyone- has free access to the unlimited resources, it's not a post scarcity society yet. It's an artificial scarcity society.

Yeah, that's exactly my point?

There -will- be a period in between scarcity ending and people understanding that material goods have no value and are still adjusting that will be tumultuous for one reason or other.

For instance, the institutions that stand to protect peoples' resources suddenly have no reason to exist and everyone involved in those areas suddenly have to find a new place in society. Given that violence is part-and-parcel to that task, some of them will turn those skills on innocents either out of frustration, at the behest of leaders with designs on power in the new system, or towards carving out their own chunk of the new power structures.

Even after -all- of that is sorted, people will still be in conflict over more abstract issues.

This is not just irrational, it strikes me as ephemeral at best. "We don't need security guards anymore, so they will turn their guns on the populace" just does not follow any train of logic I can fathom, and even if it did, it would last exactly as long as it would take for the citizens to bury them in unlimited loaves of bread.

[unseenmage]

Until -everyone- has free access to the unlimited resources, it's not a post scarcity society yet. It's an artificial scarcity society. There will be people that try to stall things at that level to hold power over others. The stage of Tippyverse development that you're thinking of is actually pretty late stage. It's gotta get there by going through the prior stages from the creation of the game-world itself, through the development of the necessary magical techniques to make the traps and the spells involved, then the combining of those techniques into scarcity elimination ability, through the execution of reaching post-scarcity, and finally to the tippyverse proper.

After they reach the point that everyone has everything they'll ever need and can access it freely, that particular angle of conflict goes away once people adjust to the fact that material goods no longer have value. There -will- be a period in between scarcity ending and people understanding that material goods have no value and are still adjusting that will be tumultuous for one reason or other.

For instance, the institutions that stand to protect peoples' resources suddenly have no reason to exist and everyone involved in those areas suddenly have to find a new place in society. Given that violence is part-and-parcel to that task, some of them will turn those skills on innocents either out of frustration, at the behest of leaders with designs on power in the new system, or towards carving out their own chunk of the new power structures.

Even after -all- of that is sorted, people will still be in conflict over more abstract issues.

In agreement with all of the above.

To my mind the goal becomes, for those true post scarcity minded characters, to get from scarcity through tumultuous almost scarcity as quickly and painlessly as possible.

Makes me wonder how best to automate delivery of appropriate volume of resources en masse...

[Jack_Simth]

They exist presently in a system where the rule of law takes precedent over much of human behavior and states have the monopoly on force. Even so, the last century was painted red with the blood of the wealthy (and even the slightly-better-off-than-average) being deposed as tyrants across much of the world. Resentment of those who have by those who have not is a very powerful motivator.

I didn't call it a "non issue", you'll note.

Keeping that a secret for any length of time will be, at best, very difficult and competitors won't be willing to just take it lying down. They have every motivation to find out how you're doing it and to put a stop to it, if they can.

Great. Given the end game of "post-scarcity" for all things currently scare, that actually poses a nifty little solution:
Trick them into using your trick. If you guard the secret of how you do mass production in such a way that it's hard to sneak in and copy, but easier to copy than to end, then your competitors will often end up out producing you just a little... and if you have more than one, they'll get into a production war with each other....

But no, it wouldn't be easy.

[unseenmage]

Back to the OP's query, mundane crafters will still exist because creativity isn't mass produced.

Each NPC should have their own unique personality, soul, and sense of creativity.

Even in a post scarcity world truly creative artists should still find their niche.

EDIT Though I imagine one could share that unique soul with the world in a sense via Simulacrum copies.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah, that's exactly my point?



This is not just irrational, it strikes me as ephemeral at best. "We don't need security guards anymore, so they will turn their guns on the populace" just does not follow any train of logic I can fathom, and even if it did, it would last exactly as long as it would take for the citizens to bury them in unlimited loaves of bread.

The key word there was "some." Even the most universal of human behaviors isn't 100% universal. Normal people can easily become pathological when faced with the right stressors. Everything you've worked to be for your entire adult life being suddenly completely invalidated is a hell of a stressor.

Some will become pathological and kill themselves, some will become pathological as I described above, and some will successfully adjust. The exact breakdown is hard to pinpoint without a lot more information but security sector workers will hardly be the only ones to which this applies, just the most dangerous.

If you can't think of why people would still conflict with one another, absent the need to procure basic resources, I can't help you to understand what I'm talking about. All I can say is that materialism does not exhaust the spectrum of human motivations.

[Psyren]

I have no doubt that some people would (however inexplicably) go crazy post-scarcity, just like some people are crazy now. But I just don't see it being widespread or lasting enough to base a setting's entire conflict around. So we'll have to agree to disagree.

[tomandtish]

Back to the OP's query, mundane crafters will still exist because creativity isn't mass produced.

Each NPC should have their own unique personality, soul, and sense of creativity.

Even in a post scarcity world truly creative artists should still find their niche.

EDIT Though I imagine one could share that unique soul with the world in a sense via Simulacrum copies.

This is a key point though....

Take Star Trek. You have replicators that can produce food and wine, so why would anyone run a vineyard or become a chef? Because there's still always going to be a room for the difference between the average and the outstanding. A replicator can make a jambalaya, but it can't duplicate the nuanced flavors of Joseph Sisko's jambalaya. It can make a bottle of Bordeaux, but can't replicate the subtle notes of a 2285 Picard Bordeaux...

[Jay R]

In any universe I run, rich and powerful people feel superior to low-class crafters and farmers, and don't want to do low-class work.

And they don't feel the need to take work away from those people.

Yes, certainly, a high-level Good priest will create food for people during a famine, but she won't try to replace those people, for the same reason great industrialists and politicians don't quit those positions and take minimum wage service jobs.

[unseenmage]

In any universe I run, rich and powerful people feel superior to low-class crafters and farmers, and don't want to do low-class work.

And they don't feel the need to take work away from those people.

Yes, certainly, a high-level Good priest will create food for people during a famine, but she won't try to replace those people, for the same reason great industrialists and politicians don't quit those positions and take minimum wage service jobs.

Part of the point of the thread though is that with high enough level spellcaster replacing the laborers isn't a change in careers, it's just a spell away.

Simulacrums, Spell Clocks, Resetting Magic Traps, Spellscribed undead... the list of ways to repeatedly unendingly make mundane labor obsolete goes on and on.

[Jay R]

Part of the point of the thread though is that with high enough level spellcaster replacing the laborers isn't a change in careers, it's just a spell away.

Simulacrums, Spell Clocks, Resetting Magic Traps, Spellscribed undead... the list of ways to repeatedly unendingly make mundane labor obsolete goes on and on.

How does the wizard find all those customers? How did he get his wares to the customers? How did he collect the money and get it back to his keeping? How does he make sure others aren't stealing his stuff and selling it at exorbitant prices?

Even with magically automated production, the actual decisions and planning behind running a continent-wide network is a full-time job.

And are there any players who would rather design a network of transporters and shopkeepers than slay dragons?

[SwordChucks]

And are there any players who would rather design a network of transporters and shopkeepers than slay dragons?

Yes, I would enjoy that and it's not like I couldn't go out and slay dragons as a hobby.

[Psyren]

And are there any players who would rather design a network of transporters and shopkeepers than slay dragons?

Well, there are at least some as this thread can attest. I maintain that there are probably better systems out there to play Spell Trap Tycoon in, but 3.x can do it.

But the question being asked in the thread is not "can 3.x do this?" The answer to that question is obviously yes. The question being asked is "why do the default settings have blacksmiths/mundane crafters?" And the answer is that these settings are catering primarily to the players who want to slay dragons (among other things) as the primary activity, not as a side-gig in between building their post-scarcity conglomerates. And so for me, the interesting question is not what are all the magnificent ways we can subvert those settings away from their intended design, but rather what kinds of extranormal obstacles can prevent such utopias from being established, leading to the banditry, treasure hunts, and dragon fights (out of necessity for many) that we know and love.

[Jay R]

The question being asked is "why do the default settings have blacksmiths/mundane crafters?"

Oh. Well, the answer to that is that the original role-playing game was attempting to simulate classic fantasy set in a medieval world. And crafts, commerce, and culture were more-or-less patterned on medieval Europe.

Modern D&D has created its own kind of D&D universe, in which most medieval ideas have been tossed by the wayside because many modern players aren't here to simulate a medieval-based world. But that was the original goal, and a lot of aspects are still there.

For many of us who've been playing since the 1970s, the idea that any supremely powerful person would voluntarily do "tradesman's work" is one of these alien intrusions. Of course, for a modern player with no attachment to the idea of a medieval European culture, there's no problem with it.

[unseenmage]

How does the wizard find all those customers? How did he get his wares to the customers? How did he collect the money and get it back to his keeping? How does he make sure others aren't stealing his stuff and selling it at exorbitant prices?

Even with magically automated production, the actual decisions and planning behind running a continent-wide network is a full-time job.

...

The wizard doesn't. Their Simulacrum or bound outsider or what have you takes care of it for them. Repeatably. Unendingly.




As I mentioned earlier, creativity is one of those few things that RAW cannot replace. For all the settings I know of souls and minds and by extension the unique qualities pertaining to such are irreplacable.
You might be able to create copies of an artist but if is doubtful those copies will be individually differently creative.


Another thought I had was the idea that if magic is used to modify an artist's tools such that everything they create is mechanically masterwork that then frees the artist to focus on the beauty of their creation instead of its function.


Another interesting side effect of pseudo industrialized magical production is that where actual industry produces refuse as waste, a magical creation-of-final-product-from-nothing production creates excess finished products instead.
Which I like as the reason why so many gameworlds are chock full of magic items just littering encounters.

I imagine that these settings had in their pasts gotten to some stage or another of post scarcity magical production before something happened.

[Cosi]

The question being asked is "why do the default settings have blacksmiths/mundane crafters?" And the answer is that these settings are catering primarily to the players who want to slay dragons (among other things) as the primary activity, not as a side-gig in between building their post-scarcity conglomerates. And so for me, the interesting question is not what are all the magnificent ways we can subvert those settings away from their intended design, but rather what kinds of extranormal obstacles can prevent such utopias from being established, leading to the banditry, treasure hunts, and dragon fights (out of necessity for many) that we know and love.

Yeah, the answer to that is really simple: you write better rules. That is the only way to solve problems with the rules (such as "the rules don't produce the setting we want"). The alternative suggested in this thread of being a passive aggressive ******* to the rest of your gaming group just makes you a bad person.

For many of us who've been playing since the 1970s, the idea that any supremely powerful person would voluntarily do "tradesman's work" is one of these alien intrusions. Of course, for a modern player with no attachment to the idea of a medieval European culture, there's no problem with it.

Those people are literally, explicitly, and knowably "good". Of course they would take time out of their lives to make the world a better place. That is what being "good" means. If you refuse to feed the poor because it is boring, you are not a good person. And we know that the PCs are good people, because it says so on their character sheet.

[Psyren]

I imagine that these settings had in their pasts gotten to some stage or another of post scarcity magical production before something happened.

You're right, and that is unfortunately also the problem. That "something happened" is usually shorthand for "the setting became an interesting place to adventure in again." When you look at the decadent, post-scarcity magical empires of a published setting's past - your Netheril, your Azlant, Istar, Zin-Azshari, etc. - there's little doubt that they had the magical mojo to churn out powerful magic items and other material goods like so much assembly-line bread. The PCs might even visit such places (always briefly) during their height as part of some time travel misadventure. But the most exciting things that happen in settings like that are leading up to when they invariably collapse and implode, not the humdrum routine of actually living there while everything is going great. And it's such a common result precisely because writing about these places at their height (and setting adventures there) is evidently boring.

Another interesting side effect of pseudo industrialized magical production is that where actual industry produces refuse as waste, a magical creation-of-final-product-from-nothing production creates excess finished products instead.
Which I like as the reason why so many gameworlds are chock full of magic items just littering encounters.

See, to me, the key word there is "encounters" - i.e. adventurers might stumble across magic items frequently, but that's because they're the ones risking their lives by delving into dungeons, facing off against powerful organizations, and outwitting rival bands. Those items can still be exceedingly rare in the grand scheme of things while also littering the kinds of places adventurers go, because adventurers themselves are uncommon and go to uncommon places. And I agree with you - a lot of those places can be holdovers from the kinds of post-scarcity empires mentioned above - but the loot they left behind can still be small in number overall.

[Jay R]

Those people are literally, explicitly, and knowably "good". Of course they would take time out of their lives to make the world a better place. That is what being "good" means.

Agreed, 100%

If you refuse to feed the poor because it is boring, you are not a good person. And we know that the PCs are good people, because it says so on their character sheet.

NOT agreed. Merely being good does not mean that they agree with you about the value of taking people's lifestyles away just to make them dependent on you for food permanently. This is the same logic that says all animals should be tamed and fed so they won't starve.

I agree that good people would feed people in a famine or other immediate crisis. But people are already eating food, all over the world. Replacing the way they are doing it now with another way that takes away their dignity and makes them your pets is not inherently the only way to be "literally, explicitly, and knowably 'good'".

How does the wizard find all those customers? How did he get his wares to the customers? How did he collect the money and get it back to his keeping? How does he make sure others aren't stealing his stuff and selling it at exorbitant prices?

Even with magically automated production, the actual decisions and planning behind running a continent-wide network is a full-time job.

The wizard doesn't. Their Simulacrum or bound outsider or what have you takes care of it for them. Repeatably. Unendingly.

OK, I'll bite. How did the wizard find an outsider or simulacrum with knowledge of where every town, village and household is, how many people are there, how much food is needed, and exactly where the food can go, along with the technical expertise to run a world-girdling transportation network, the political knowledge of how to prevent the local bullies from seizing the food and using it for tyranny, etc.

I repeat: After you cast all the spells, and create the mountain of food or goods, the work of getting it where it's supposed to go is still a full-time job requiring a level of network theory, operations analysis, and logistics that simply does not exist in such a world.

You cannot just hand-wave away millions of decisions.

[SwordChucks]

NOT agreed. Merely being good does not mean that they agree with you about the value of taking people's lifestyles away just to make them dependent on you for food permanently. This is the same logic that says all animals should be tamed and fed so they won't starve.

I agree that good people would feed people in a famine or other immediate crisis. But people are already eating food, all over the world. Replacing the way they are doing it now with another way that takes away their dignity and makes them your pets is not inherently the only way to be "literally, explicitly, and knowably 'good'".

Where are you getting this? Did anyone say the wizard goes around and says "Eat my food or else"? That they burn down crops and kill or free livestock? It becomes an option, and people are free to turn it down.

Also, a post-scarcity society is a "society" not necessarily a post-scarcity world. The goal might be a post-scarcity world but that is likely beyond just one wizard pre-epic.

[Cosi]

NOT agreed. Merely being good does not mean that they agree with you about the value of taking people's lifestyles away just to make them dependent on you for food permanently. This is the same logic that says all animals should be tamed and fed so they won't starve.

Equating charity with taking people's lives away is a bold stance. If people enjoy being farmers, they can still do that. There are people today who farm (at one scale or another) not because they are subsistence farmers, or because they make their living at it, but because they enjoy doing so.

I agree that good people would feed people in a famine or other immediate crisis.

D&Dland is medieval. People are always starving everywhere because they live at a subsistence level on land being farmed with premodern techniques in a feudal relationship with the local lord (who, incidentally, is not exactly in favor of them having whatever lifestyle they want). Medieval Europe was at a level of growth we would have called depression or recession for hundreds of years. The infant mortality rate was somewhere between a third and a half. D&D is like that, but there are manticores and apocalypse cultists.