OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

[Rrmcklin]

Um, that was exactly my point.

I only skimmed your post, sorry. Though looking at it your post seems kind of conflicting to me.

Honestly, my expectation is that it isn't in any of the caves. She went through the effort to modify the terrain, why should she leave the gate open to the air? I think the cave with the gate in it is completely sealed off.

Because that defeats the point of brute force being the ultimate defense, which the method is supposed to symbolize.

I just figured the set up is to justify why Team Evil has spent so much time trying to get to it instead of just blowing past everything. Another way to let the good guys catch up without the world ending (especially now that they had to stop to prevent another world ending thing).

[Ruck]

Ok, hows this then? The patterns you think are there would seem to be there no matter how they were actually defeated. What you are actually seeing is that they were defeated at all; their defeat happened in spite of their personal plans, not because of them, with the exception of Lirian. Girard is an odd case in that his defenses fell in an unrelated incident, which I guess looks like an ironic result of his defenses if you squint.

If Girard had defenders of his gate beyond his own family, Familicide wouldn't have wiped out his defenses.

Also, a member of the Sapphire Guard blew up Soon's Gate, which was under siege in part because of Redcloak's grudge against the Guard's genocidal missions.

So, despite your continued insistence, bordering on pedantic, that it didn't actually happen that way, it did. And those facts I stated above are simply not true in all cases where the Gate might have been captured or destroyed.

[runeghost]

Ah, but how many adventurers would search a non-dungeon temple? Everyone knows that treasure is found in the lairs of your enemies, not of your allies.

Either you haven't played much D&D, or you have been blessed with an atypical absence of chaotic greedy murderhobos. (Not that all, or even a majority, of players I've played with over the years would loot a friendly temple. But some of the would.)

[Ronconauta]

Isn't the idea of having hundreds of doors, each of which could lead to the Gate but all of which lead to horrible death-dealing monsters, already a significant level of deception? If Serini's defences were entirely about physical strength then she'd have only one dungeon full of monsters with the Gate at the end of it, but we already know that's not what she did.

I bet the doors are just a bait and the gate is in Kragoor's statue.
The fact that Serini's defences are supposedly based on physical strength is just a false lead.
Sadly that also means that the Mitd is unknowingly helping Xikon when marking random doors as visited.
But I'm with O-chul on that: at least his heart is in the right place.

[Ruck]

I bet the doors are just a bait and the gate is in Kragoor's statue.

It would not be smart to build a dungeon that draws attention to anyone looking for the gate but then hide the gate nearby in an even easier-to-access location.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html

[Rrmcklin]

If there is a trick, the statue is the most obvious thing it could be. Which doesn't make it a very good trick.

Also, the rifts can't be moved, and the terrain around the statue doesn't match that of the surrounding rift we saw in flashback.

[factotum]

Also, the rifts can't be moved, and the terrain around the statue doesn't match that of the surrounding rift we saw in flashback.

That also begs the question of why all Serini's caves presumably lead to dungeons, but the gate was above ground when Kraagor was shown fighting in it?

[danielxcutter]

Because that defeats the point of brute force being the ultimate defense, which the method is supposed to symbolize.

That also begs the question of why all Serini's caves presumably lead to dungeons, but the gate was above ground when Kraagor was shown fighting in it?

...I don't suppose the Gate might be under all that rock? That is, literally buried somewhere deep inside the ginormous mountain of multidimensional stone? It fits Serini's theme, because it's a clever trick befitting a Rogue, and it fits Kraagor's theme, because you literally have to smash the entire mountain to gravel to get to the Gate.

Hey, Stone Shape is a thing, right?

[Ironsmith]

...I don't suppose the Gate might be under all that rock? That is, literally buried somewhere deep inside the ginormous mountain of multidimensional stone? It fits Serini's theme, because it's a clever trick befitting a Rogue, and it fits Kraagor's theme, because you literally have to smash the entire mountain to gravel to get to the Gate.

Hey, Stone Shape is a thing, right?

It'd also fit in with any theory that Sereni symbolically combines the philosophies of her fellow party members to defend her gate. I mean, again, misdirection (Girard), and protection via nature (there's tasking the mountain with protecting the gate, and then there's tasking the mountain with protecting the gate). Soon's a bit of a squeeze, but eh, there's still plot.

[Ronconauta]

If there is a trick, the statue is the most obvious thing it could be. Which doesn't make it a very good trick.

Also, the rifts can't be moved, and the terrain around the statue doesn't match that of the surrounding rift we saw in flashback.

The statue being the most obvious thing is exacly why it's also the best location while everyone looking for the gate is wasting time or dying
in the dungeons. A touch of "lame" is what makes a good distraction perfect.

Looks like in that universe nobody has read Poe's The purloined letter, other than being unable to imagine something else than a dungeon filled with monsters to defend something valuable.

The fact that the landscape was different in the flashback is also largely irrilevant. While it's similar enough it was also a "cryton" flashback and as already stated we are supposed to take those with a pinch of salt.
But if we want to take it to face value it's obvious in the strip that the statue is in the exact location of the rift (strip 276).

That said, in two / three years time, when we'll discover where it was my only regreat will be that i didn't bet actual money on it.

[Aaron L]

Let's hope there's a Girdle of (Storm) Gauntlet Strength in that secret compartment to go along with those Gauntlets of Ogre Power and that Hammer of Thunderbolts! Essentially the magic items are production model versions of Megingjörð (Thor's "power-belt") Járngreipr (Thor's gauntlets the "Iron Grippers") and Mjolnir (Thor's Hammer "Mill Grinder", as if I needed to explain that.)

When wearing all of them together, you take all the damage bonus you get from the strength score the Gauntlets give you, add that to the bonus the Girdle (Belt in 3E) gives you, and add that to the damage of the Hammer. So, let's say Durkon has an 18 Str with the Gauntlets (+2) on for a +4 damage bonus, and say the Belt is +6 raising his Str to 24 for a +7 bonus, which added to +4 makes +11 all together. With the Hammer that will be 4D6 +16 damage with each attack. So, Durkon is going to be one hellacious combatant with his new hammer and kit.

(This particular set of magic items are the only thing in any edition of the game that act like this, but it's in homage to Thor's magical gauntlets and belt which have this same effect in the legends, both acting as multipliers to Thor's strength.)

I had an 18th level 1st Edition Ranger back in the day who managed to get his hands on a whole set like that after many years of playing (well, a Girdle of Cloud Giant Strength, but I wasn't about to be picky) and my friends still remember the terror to Evil he became after that.

[Peelee]

The statue being the most obvious thing is exacly why it's also the best location while everyone looking for the gate is wasting time or dying
in the dungeons.

Thats....no. That still makes it the worst location.

[Rrmcklin]

The statue being the most obvious thing is exacly why it's also the best location while everyone looking for the gate is wasting time or dying
in the dungeons. A touch of "lame" is what makes a good distraction perfect.

I don't understand how you come to that conclusion. Something being an easy conclusion to come to by definition makes it a poor trick.

Looks like in that universe nobody has read Poe's The purloined letter, other than being unable to imagine something else than a dungeon filled with monsters to defend something valuable.

What?

The fact that the landscape was different in the flashback is also largely irrilevant. While it's similar enough it was also a "cryton" flashback and as already stated we are supposed to take those with a pinch of salt.
But if we want to take it to face value it's obvious in the strip that the statue is in the exact location of the rift (strip 276).

It's irrelevant because it disproves your point? Because you might have a point if we hadn't seen the actual dungeon, and it lining up better with the flashback scene. But we did see that, and the dungeon does.

That said, in two / three years time, when we'll discover where it was my only regreat will be that i didn't bet actual money on it.

And not to sound rude, but your pack patting is unwarranted. Literally everyone has contemplated this idea. Because, again, it's so obvious. Which is always what makes it very unlikely.

[factotum]

But if we want to take it to face value it's obvious in the strip that the statue is in the exact location of the rift (strip 276).

Um, no, it's clearly a different location--the hills in the background are different sizes and in different places.

[Aveline]

"Hey, why don't we check out this poignant statue which is the only feature to speak of in the area surrounding Monster Hollow?"

Hiding the gate in plain sight would work, if there were like, at least a handful of other things around so as for the actual gate object not to shout "I'm important!"

[zimmerwald1915]

In this film we hope to show how not to be seen. This is Dorukan's Gate in the Redmountain Hills. It cannot be seen. Now I am going to ask it to stand up; Dorukan's Gate, would you stand up please?

*Krakakoom*

This demonstrates the value of not being seen.

In this picture we cannot see Soon's Gate above Azure City. Soon's Gate, would you stand up please?

*Krakakoom*

Here we cannot see Girard's Gate in the Windy Canyon. Girard's Gate, would you stand up please?

*Krakakoom*

This is Kraagor's Gate, interred by Serini Toormuck at the Northern Pole. Kraagor's Gate, would you stand up please?

*pause*

Kraagor's Gate has learnt the first lesson of not being seen, not to stand up. However Ms Toormuck has chosen a very obvious piece of cover.

*Krakakoom*

[Ruck]

...I don't suppose the Gate might be under all that rock? That is, literally buried somewhere deep inside the ginormous mountain of multidimensional stone? It fits Serini's theme, because it's a clever trick befitting a Rogue, and it fits Kraagor's theme, because you literally have to smash the entire mountain to gravel to get to the Gate.

Hey, Stone Shape is a thing, right?

I've definitely wondered if there actually isn't any way to get to the gate itself; it's in there, but all the dungeons dead-end and the Gate itself is just surrounded by impenetrable rock.

I don't think this is likely to be the case. Watsonian perspective: All the other Gate guardians seemed to believe the gate needed to be accessible somehow, although we have seen one gate completely encased (although in something that was pretty easy to destroy if necessary). Doylist / Bardic perspective: Where's the drama if Team Evil can't even get to the final gate?

[Verappo]

While I don't necessarily think that the rift will be inside the statue, I feel like if it WERE to be there then Rich Burlew would find a way to write it in a compelling way that doesn't feel like a cheap reveal. I mean, I'm happy with the "deception" (or twist, whatever you call it) of the gate being just how many doors there are. That was enough of a game changer as it is, and it would fit with Kraagor's belief in physical might that this just isn't an obstacle you can outsmart, you've just got to try over and over and over. But it's also fun to entertain other options.

From a narrative standpoint, I'm wondering what will happen when/if the order catches up with Xykon at Monster Hollow. Are they going to try their luck with the doors? or somehow try to approach the bugbears so they can contact Redcloak or whatever (again, Rich Burlew can write this better). If Monster Hollow is just supposed to be an obstacle for the bad guys, then I can see there being no twist somehow (and if Serini is still there she can give the order the totally random door number she choose for the door or whatever), unlike if this is something the order will have to figure out themselves.

[Aveline]

Haha. Couldn't've put it better myself, Zim.

[zimmerwald1915]

Haha. Couldn't've put it better myself, Zim.

I have not yet met a forum argument that could not be improved by Monty Python.

[Keltest]

I've definitely wondered if there actually isn't any way to get to the gate itself; it's in there, but all the dungeons dead-end and the Gate itself is just surrounded by impenetrable rock.

I don't think this is likely to be the case. Watsonian perspective: All the other Gate guardians seemed to believe the gate needed to be accessible somehow, although we have seen one gate completely encased (although in something that was pretty easy to destroy if necessary). Doylist / Bardic perspective: Where's the drama if Team Evil can't even get to the final gate?

Soon's gate was in the air above Azure City (no, it wasn't actually physically within the sapphire). Likewise, Girard's gate was inside a big lead pillar with no access points. Physical access may not actually be necessary.

[Yirggzmb]

Soon's gate was in the air above Azure City (no, it wasn't actually physically within the sapphire)

I thought the gate WAS sealed behind the sapphire in the throne room, but that the throne room was in a tall tower that was destroyed when the gate was.

[zimmerwald1915]

I thought the gate WAS sealed behind the sapphire in the throne room, but that the throne room was in a tall tower that was destroyed when the gate was.

"Behind" is not "within."

The throne of the Lord of the City was built around Soon's Gate, and the Sapphire was set into the throne, in between the backing of the throne (and thus the Gate) and any petitioners that might be facing the Lord of the City.

Also, between the backing of the throne and the back of the Lord of the City's head.

[LadyEowyn]

It'd also fit in with any theory that Sereni symbolically combines the philosophies of her fellow party members to defend her gate. I mean, again, misdirection (Girard), and protection via nature (there's tasking the mountain with protecting the gate, and then there's tasking the mountain with protecting the gate). Soon's a bit of a squeeze, but eh, there's still plot.

The Gate being literally surrounded by the mountain, with no magical means of getting through the mountain, makes a lot more sense than it being connected to the statue.

Having it in the statue would be like if Girard had left huge defenses in his “random patch of desert” and then left the Windy Canyon gate completely undefended. Girard’s double-bluff made sense because it told people (falsely) “the gate isn’t here” after they had already made their way past all the defenses.

[Seward]

Exactly.

We can quote all the rules we want, but there is no allowance in the RAW for the deceased to learn significant new information, like Roy did. Regardless of what Roy's XP total might have been on his return (yes, I remember the joke), he came back better.

Ditto Durkon.

I got roleplay XP for dying once. Followed an extremely lawful god (one of whose attributes was "inflexibility"). Died because my party included a bunch of chaotic folks who couldn't get serious about fighting some Slaad.

Had a conversation with my deity that was a lot like that Priest's with the Dark One. "So, what did you do wrong".

"Well, my first mistake was associating with all those chaotic folks. My second was trusting them to have my back. On the other hand it looks like in the end my death caused them to get serious and win the fight and accomplish the objective. But I will think about my choices that lead to this point as I work to regain the skill this death will cost me."

The whole interaction was actually a lot like the sort of stuff we've seen in this strip when followers first meet their gods after Death.

Although this is the same character that had a mind-swap with a priest of his religion earlier in his career, saw that the priest had prepared "Commune" that day and immediately cast it, just for the opportunity to talk with his Deity. (one can imagine the deity rolling his eyes, or a scent like Thor vs Surtur when Durkon asked for spells).

Basically, death is an opportunity for a religious character to get some quality RP in :). Or even a not-so-religious person like Roy. Not an opportunity to be wasted.

[Goblin_Priest]

What about the fight inside the pyramid in BRITF, which follows Roy’s strategy and goes off without a hitch (Sabine banished, Nale disabled, Tarquin disarmed, and the Linear Guild forced to retreat)?

Uh, which strips are you referring to? Because I don't recall any of that stuff in the () actually being any of Roy's (or the Order's) doing?

And I don't recall Roy's plans in those not also involving him hitting hard with his big sword.

[Peelee]

Uh, which strips are you referring to? Because I don't recall any of that stuff in the () actually being any of Roy's (or the Order's) doing?

And I don't recall Roy's plans in those not also involving him hitting hard with his big sword.

So you're discounting any of that being Roy's plan, then immediately calling out his plan as not having him do anything. Sadly there's no Mental Gymnastics event in the Olympics, or I'd be putting money on you.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Uh, which strips are you referring to? Because I don't recall any of that stuff in the () actually being any of Roy's (or the Order's) doing?

#858 - #862, I suspect. The entire sequence was planned by Roy

[Sniccups]

Maybe it rocks out, flies, shoots lightning, and turns walnuts into pigeons. I know a pretty arkin' cool hammer like that.

I'm kind of disappointed that I didn't think of that joke now.

Also, this weapon totally makes up for the fact that Durkon is now down 2 levels from where he was earlier.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Keltest, what's your evaluation of the idea of defending a gate with illusions when the person coming around to knockdown your door is a lich with the standard undead immunities where illusions are concerned? Because that's pretty darn foreseeable (also vampire and mummy raiders).