Murphy's Law 5: To Comic 100...And Beyond!

[HalfTangible]

Actually, I find it fitting.
All of Lloyd's life he was taught that the Plavaan was sub-human, that they were evil, that they were below human. By realizing that they have the same color of blood, he realized the truth that Shakespeare once wrote in a play:

Not the whole 'they're the same as me' thing, i meant that he realized it through BLOOD, specifically.

If you've ever heard "peace through superior firepower" this is the sort of approach they're refering to. Everything is peacful when everyone who disagrees with you is dead.

Also known as "kill them all and let God sort them out."

No, 'peace through superior firepower' refers to the idea that if nobody WANTS to attack you, nobody WILL. And one way to do that is to make it so that any attack they send your way gets obliterated. Sun Tzu said something like that. Something like "The art of war lies not in relying on your enemy's lack of desire to attack, but in making your position unassailable"

[Anterean]

Why? I thought she was supposed to be a good goddess?

Who absolutely despises the Plavaan for reasons which Janine explained. They killed Salblaze. She'll never forgive them.

So she encourages genocide, that sorta rules out her being good doesn´t it ?

[Alagaesian]

So she encourages genocide, that sorta rules out her being good doesn´t it ?

Ah, she thinks that the Plaavan gods have killed Salblaze in cold blood. Those gods weren't there at the start of time - they were raised up by the Plaavans worshipping them. Therefore, she thinks that the Plaavan's goals coincide with their god's, making the Plaavan race evil enough to wipe off the face of the planet. Plus, in this war, they've been killing Kagoian soldiers who are only trying to do the "right thing."

Let's say a gang leader killed your best friend. The police come in and try to arrest the gang for murder, and a gunfight breaks out, killing gang members and policemen alike. You would be prejudiced to see the gang's side as the bad side because the leader shot your friend and you never learned why. You probably wouldn't be opposed to seeing the police hunt down and kill the rest of them.

Even if that gang had never done anything illegal and wasn't planning on it, you wouldn't know that. Maybe your friend was going to murder someone close to that gang leader. But since you don't know that, prejudice makes you view that gunfight as a gang shooting a bunch of innocent policemen. Instead, it could have started with a gang member trying to protect their leader from capital punishment, with revenge and self-defense killing accelerating fight.

What I'm trying to say is that everyone, even Astrid, can be influenced by their emotions. In her situation, she has enough reason to believe that the Plaavans are evil, so if her intent is to let her paladins wipe out this evil, she may still be considered on the Good side of the alignment spectrum. Besides, it's not as if Astrid is encouraging this genocide. She's letting others do it without objecting.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Ah, she thinks that the Plaavan gods have killed Salblaze in cold blood. Those gods weren't there at the start of time - they were raised up by the Plaavans worshipping them. Therefore, she thinks that the Plaavan's goals coincide with their god's, making the Plaavan race evil enough to wipe off the face of the planet. Plus, in this war, they've been killing Kagoian soldiers who are only trying to do the "right thing."

Let's say a gang leader killed your best friend. The police come in and try to arrest the gang for murder, and a gunfight breaks out, killing gang members and policemen alike. You would be prejudiced to see the gang's side as the bad side because the leader shot your friend and you never learned why. You probably wouldn't be opposed to seeing the police hunt down and kill the rest of them.

Even if that gang had never done anything illegal and wasn't planning on it, you wouldn't know that. Maybe your friend was going to murder someone close to that gang leader. But since you don't know that, prejudice makes you view that gunfight as a gang shooting a bunch of innocent policemen. Instead, it could have started with a gang member trying to protect their leader from capital punishment, with revenge and self-defense killing accelerating fight.

What I'm trying to say is that everyone, even Astrid, can be influenced by their emotions. In her situation, she has enough reason to believe that the Plaavans are evil, so if her intent is to let her paladins wipe out this evil, she may still be considered on the Good side of the alignment spectrum. Besides, it's not as if Astrid is encouraging this genocide. She's letting others do it without objecting.

Yes! YES! You've got it!

[Lord Raziere]

So this whole thing started because no one has any idea what actually happened?

huh. fitting. in normal DnD, no one really has any idea why people are at war with other races either.

[HalfTangible]

In your gangfight scenario, however, you still have whatever crime led to capital punishment (for example) and the reason your close friend wanted to kill the gang leader to start with.

What i really want to know is why the Plavaan gods decided that murdering a random dragon (for whatever reason) was a good idea. That's where the whole thing started, really - their reasons for attacking. Or perhaps it started when Astrid decided to descend, if my guess on why they did it (spreading light to a land with dark-dwelling creatures) is correct.

So this whole thing started because no one has any idea what actually happened?

huh. fitting. in normal DnD, no one really has any idea why people are at war with other races either.

It started for the same reason every other sapient conflict in every story that didn't suck ever started: because both sides believed themselves in the right, even when they did wrong.

[Anterean]

What I'm trying to say is that everyone, even Astrid, can be influenced by their emotions. In her situation, she has enough reason to believe that the Plaavans are evil, so if her intent is to let her paladins wipe out this evil, she may still be considered on the Good side of the alignment spectrum. Besides, it's not as if Astrid is encouraging this genocide. She's letting others do it without objecting.

"All it takes for evil to succeed is good men to nothing".
But fair enough, I am still questioning, what led me into this to start with which is that paladins supposedly have to be good in Aquear, and Coffee has so far portrayed all paladins (apart from Lloyd) as hate filled, genocidal manics (yeah-yeah they have been brainwashed, by their deity no less, but they still have some responsibility for their actions).
Now I can understand them remaining paladins because they still have the support deity, but I have a hard time accepting them being good because well... the genocide

[Asta Kask]

genocide schmenocide...

[Draconi Redfir]

Not the whole 'they're the same as me' thing, i meant that he realized it through BLOOD, specifically.

he didn’t, he realized it through the Drow girl trying to protect the young baby Drow the same way any sane human woman would. He just used the Color of their blood as a metaphor for saying "oh dear Astrid, they are the same as us! Only the shell is different!"

In your gangfight scenario, however, you still have whatever crime led to capital punishment (for example) and the reason your close friend wanted to kill the gang leader to start with.

What i really want to know is why the Plavaan gods decided that murdering a random dragon (for whatever reason) was a good idea. That's where the whole thing started, really - their reasons for attacking. Or perhaps it started when Astrid decided to descend, if my guess on why they did it (spreading light to a land with dark-dwelling creatures) is correct.

We don’t know this part yet, considering we have only heard the Astrid side of the story. Now that the Drow girl is here, we might learn that Sailblaze was burning their crops by mistake, or that the Plavaan gods weren’t expecting Astrid, and upon seeing a large beast made of fire, assumed it was a demon and attacked it.

[Asta Kask]

What surprises me is that Astrid continues to grant Lloyd abilities. Seeing as he is violating a fairly central precept - the Plavaan races are evil.

[Devmaar]

What surprises me is that Astrid continues to grant Lloyd abilities. Seeing as he is violating a fairly central precept - the Plavaan races are evil.

Maybe Astrid recognises that his actions are correct, but can't bring herself to do the same.

Seems good to me

[super dark33]

OBJECTION!

I see no evidence for this either, the defence rests again.

if you need evidence then ill need to have permission to use IRL politics
(nazis thought jews are evil, so they killed jews, considering it a good act)

[Devmaar]

if you need evidence then ill need to have permission to use IRL politics
(nazis thought jews are evil, so they killed jews, considering it a good act)

As I said, just because the paladins consider what they're doing to be a good act, doesn't mean it is one.

[HalfTangible]

he didn’t, he realized it through the Drow girl trying to protect the young baby Drow the same way any sane human woman would. He just used the Color of their blood as a metaphor for saying "oh dear Astrid, they are the same as us! Only the shell is different!"

... >.>

whatever. this ain't worth it.

We don’t know this part yet, considering we have only heard the Astrid side of the story.

Which is why i NOW WANT TO KNOW IT

[Asta Kask]

As I said, just because the paladins consider what they're doing to be a good act, doesn't mean it is one.

Exactly. In D&D, there is an ultimate standard of 'Good', regardless of what anyone (including deities) thinks about it. They can reject that standard, of course, but it doesn't change things. Exactly what falls under that standard is a question for the individual DM, but I think it's clear Coffee doesn't accept genocide as a 'Good' act. It is at best a good act. Or maybe even a good act.

[CoffeeIncluded]

The paladins are trained to be this way. And they're not the only paladins in Aequar, just the largest collective army on the continent of Nordica.

And it hasn't gotten into out-and-out genocide. Yet. Give it a few years without any changes and tossing a couple maniacs into power...

I'd like to think that at that point Astrid would go, "Hey, wait a minute..." but you know how you etch a groove so deep you can't get out of it...

[Asta Kask]

Yeah, remember - if she gets her power from her worshippers, and she suddenly reverses policy like this, half the church could desert. She might rationalize it to herself up to the point where the Leage of Good Gods turn up and says - "Shape up or ship out, you're turning Neutral (or even Evil)".

[Draconi Redfir]

Which is why i NOW WANT TO KNOW IT

and I’m sure we will. Now that we have a Drow with the group, she might be able to tell us the other half of the story. Otherwise Coffee will tell us the other half when it is the right time, just sit down, enjoy the story, and keep your pants on.
no seriously, keep them on. ick.

[HalfTangible]

and I’m sure we will. Now that we have a Drow with the group, she might be able to tell us the other half of the story. Otherwise Coffee will tell us the other half when it is the right time, just sit down, enjoy the story, and keep your pants on.
no seriously, keep them on. ick.

Yes. And i'm expressing my desire to hear it I don't think that's outside the societal norm.

[Dark Faun]

What I'm looking forward is this story evolving beyond a run-out-of-the-mill "racism is bad" lesson-teacher. Mind you, it's well-told so far, but every time the Plavaan issue is brought up I feel like I'm reading an imitation of Start of Darkness. It's got the same misled, racist paladins and the poor monsters thing going on.

[CoffeeIncluded]

It's not just racism. It's a whole mass self-delusion thing.

[Dark Faun]

That's what it's been coming off as to me so far.

[CoffeeIncluded]

That's what it's been coming off as to me so far.

It's also...I know just how much of an influence peer pressure and "I was just following orders" is--Take a look at the Milgram study.

But in the end, the choice is yours. It's just you.

[Dark Faun]

I know the choice is mine. And my usual response to these excuses is a vicious kick in the gonads, and more if the law allows it. But I feel Murphy's Law will spend its entirety being utterly anvilicious about the lessons it's ought to teach, instead of subtle.

[Asta Kask]

I don't know. Remember the Tinder arc. Is it right to slaughter people who are evil? Isn't that what laws are supposed to be about? These are fundamental questions of justice.

Socrates taught that it is unjust to harm others, even when they have hurt you. Was he right? He certainly would have made a lousy adventurer...

No, I have hope for this comic. Oterwise I'd stop reading it.

[HalfTangible]

My view: Justice is preventing harm from being committed in the future. Sometimes this means killing a man, sometimes it means keeping him locked up.

[Mina Kobold]

if you need evidence then ill need to have permission to use IRL politics
(nazis thought jews are evil, so they killed jews, considering it a good act)

We are not allowed to discuss real life politics.

But it still proves nothing, the belief that something is good does that change it's nature in a world where good and evil are more than just aspects of philosophy and culture.

IE the WoC.

My view: Justice is preventing harm from being committed in the future. Sometimes this means killing a man, sometimes it means keeping him locked up.

I go a bit beyond that: Justice should be about preventing harm and about creating good.

Which essentially means that if you kill him he can't be redeemed and used to make the world a better place.

But that's subjective.

[super dark33]

so this is it, me vs. evryone else.

Lloyd did what he feels right, not good. the drow are evil, for kagogian detect evil spells.

[Marnath]

so this is it, me vs. evryone else.

Lloyd did what he feels right, not good. the drow are evil, for kagogian detect evil spells.

I still have no idea what you're saying. The drow aren't evil, and Lloyd never scanned them with his detect evil.

[Anterean]

so this is it, me vs. evryone else.

Lloyd did what he feels right, not good. the drow are evil, for kagogian detect evil spells.

but only because in this world "Detect Evil" is really "Detect who your deity as a grudge against"