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Thread: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
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2012-05-09, 05:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
I know. That's why I only did it once and with a character that didn't go to Whiterun until she was leading the assault. Otherwise I don't do the quests, and usually don't complete the main quest either. I just get dragon rend and then leave them to stand there forever.
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2012-05-09, 09:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
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Rest in Peace:SpoilerMiko Miyazaki, Thanh, Durkon- Order of the Stick
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2012-05-10, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
I'll tell you why Tullius is worse: Because he openly betrays his principles to become an instrument of Thalmor oppression. He knows the Thalmor are the real enemy, but projects his own scheming, self-serving motives on Ulfric Stormcloak. Ulfric is standing up for his beliefs, for his people, at a time when the Empire is letting them be persecuted by a foreign oppressor. How he gets painted as a villain in that context by any rational person is totally incomprehensible.
Yes, he's not the most open-minded and tolerant fellow in Tamriel, and yes, some of his followers are outright bigots. But the Empire has its share of bigots too, and the Thalmor are the goose-stepping Nazis of the piece, and Tullius is carrying their water. As Toby Ziegler put it in 'The West Wing', "You're not the Devil, you're the guy who goes to the corner store to get the Devil a pack of cigarettes".
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2012-05-10, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
Because Tullius isn't betraying his own principles, he's upholding them. He's a man of law, order, and discipline. He swore an oath to serve the Empire and the Emperor, and those principles demand that he obey the lawful treaty signed with the Thalmor. It doesn't matter that he knows that he's their enemy or that he knows he's being made to do their dirty work; his duty is to obey his orders, and he does so to the best of his ability. He can't just discard his orders and act on his own - what kind of example would he be setting as an officer or as a citizen?
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2012-05-10, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
I think Bethesda made a well done job on Skyrim Civil War storyline. It is fictional war but starts a debate between fans if posted on internet (other than
). Neither of them are right or wrong (Empire can be a sell out boot licking puppet or last bastion of humanity. Stormcloaks can be army of Viking Miko Miyazaki (Dumb and make things worse type) with racist attitude or only sane vikings to know that Empire is corrupt).SpoilerHarrowmont (Elitist but Honest Dwarf) vs Bhelen (Tyrant but Progressive Dwarf) in Dragon Age.Badly drawn helmet avatar drawn by me.
Rest in Peace:SpoilerMiko Miyazaki, Thanh, Durkon- Order of the Stick
Krunch- Looking For Group
Bill- Left 4 Dead
Soap Mactavish- Modern Warfare 3
Sandman- Modern Warfare 3
Ghost and Roach- Modern Warfare 2
Gabe- Dead Space 2
Dom- Gears of War 3
Carmine Brothers- Gears of War series
Uriel Septim VII- Elderscrolls Oblivion
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Ned Stark- Song of Ice and Fire
Apple Jack's parents
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2012-05-10, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
What kind of example is he setting when he protects Thalmor agents when they kidnap, torture and murder Imperial citizens? There's such a thing as an unjust law. In fact, there are a lot of them. The Empire serves to protect its subjects. If it can't deliver on that simple mandate, then there's not much justification in law, order and discipline. Law, order in discipline in that context get you carted off to a Thalmor dungeon.
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2012-05-10, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
To which I respectfully submit this rebuttal: So? It's not Tullius's job to enforce justice. He is not a governor, the leader of the province, or a watchman. He is a General in service to the Empire, and as a result of that role he is a soldier. If his orders entail such behavior, then so be it. His principles dictate that it is not his place to question his oath to the Emperor. The fact that he has moral scruples with his own orders means he's sane, but the fact that he continues to place duty above them means he's sticking to his principles, not abandoning them. There will be time enough to fight the Thalmor later - but under a united Empire, not a fractured collection of rebellious states.
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2012-05-10, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
At risk of invoking Godwin's Law, such arguments didn't work out so good for Albert Speer, Rudolph Hess, Karl Dönitz, et al. The job of the state is to administer justice and protect its citizens, and being subject to orders doesn't give you a pass on that duty. Does being sworn to obey the Emperor put him in a difficult position? Yes. Does that mean what he's doing is just? No it does not. The position that you can oppress a minority for the sake of civic order is NOT defensible, period.
And the suggestion that delaying the oncoming conflict with the Thalmor plays in favour of the Empire is patently false. The Altmeri Dominion is internally united under the White-Gold Concordat, and the Empire is fragmenting, with both Skyrim and Hammerfell rebelling under the yoke of Imperial tyranny. What sane leader would try to throw off the yoke of foreign aggression AFTER fighting a grueling civil war to enforce the terms of their last treaty? It's dilatory appeasement and serves only to strengthen the Empire's enemies while weakening itself.
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2012-05-10, 05:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
But what if Redguards are working with Aldmeri Dominion and their "victory" was part of their plan. Even though the empire signed white gold concordat, the empire actually tries to pretend that Nords do not have Talos worship, according to Alvor the blacksmith, and Thalmor came to skyrim when Ulfric starts his rebellion.
Last edited by t209; 2012-05-10 at 05:51 PM.
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Rest in Peace:SpoilerMiko Miyazaki, Thanh, Durkon- Order of the Stick
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Carmine Brothers- Gears of War series
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Apple Jack's parents
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2012-05-10, 10:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
So instead you want him to be a traitor to everything he believes by supporting a murderer and a terrorist? And become a traitor to the empire as well as the emperor in the process?
As for your last point... it might not be defensible, but it is necessary a lot of times. Now let's leave this since we are sliding into IRL politics?Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2012-05-10 at 10:05 PM.
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2012-05-11, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
So, I hit 74 this morning when lockpicking hit 95. I nearly hit 75 a few minutes later when I used the Infinium. My Sneak & Pickpocket are rising but not as fast as I'd like. I think I'm going to train Sneak this level instead of Pickpocket... I've dumped some of my leftover perk points into Sneak to try and help it level faster. Since it's clear sneak attacking is raising it faster, I took the liberty of smithing up a pair of daedric daggers (>180 damage on each, unenchanted). Archery continues its slow climb toward 100 as my last attack skill to get there.
I've been knocking out some of the misc & daedric quests that were clogging up my journal. This includes Red Eagle's sword, which I think I've had in the journal since I was in single digits. Another one that's been in my journal almost as long involves a drinking game, which I've been hesitant to try because a> it smells of being a daedric quest and b> it smells of being a Hangover movie homage, and in real life I'm a teetotaller/prohibitionist.
I've also become thane of a couple more cities, but apparently there isn't a house to get in Dawnstar or Morthal. Pity
Speaking of Dawnstar, I actually reloaded a game because of a dragon attack there. An elder dragon managed to take out *both* of the blacksmiths (it's a married couple) before I could get to it.- Sometimes, the knights are the monsters
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2012-05-11, 04:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
The quickest way to up Sneak is to use melee Sneak-attacks.
The problem I have with Tullius isn't him capturing Ulfric. That's what he'd been ordered to do, grab Ulfric and stop the rebellion. Fine. I don't think he was ordered to capture him, drag him somewhere he could make a public spectacle of the execution, and then kill him without trial.
I think that was something that the SS elves were doing, and Tullius was going along with it. If nothing else, Legate Rikki should have pointed out that there was no way that executing Ulfric like that would be the best way possible to Martyr him and send the rebellion into overdrive.
In short? Tullius is an idiot. How he managed to obtain the rank of general blindly following orders is beyond me.
And you're in no danger of invoking Godwin's. I invoked it already with my 'SS elves' comment.
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2012-05-11, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
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2012-05-11, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
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2012-05-11, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
Hrm. An in absentia trial wouldn't really be out-of-place for the kind of time period TES models, so it's not something we can rule out. Though I also wonder: is it possible that the Stormcloaks are classified as an enemy military force instead of citizens? That'd make the immediate execution make a bit more sense, as at that point he's an enemy combatant, not a criminal.
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2012-05-11, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
Oh definitely. In fact, it was your suggestion back on May04 that I've been following. I've primarily been using bows because that's my last attack skill that hasn't capped yet, but to try and raise Sneak even faster I've gone down the sneak tree for the x15 dagger damage perk and made myself a pair of daggers. These last six levels aren't going to grind themselves, it seems
- Sometimes, the knights are the monsters
- The main problem with the world? So many grownups, not enough adults.
- Talk less; say more.
- George R.R. Martin, Kirkman, and Joss Whedon walked into a bar. There were no survivors.
- Current Project: Fallout 4 "nerd" build (3/7/2/2/9/3/2, PER 9 after boosts)
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2012-05-11, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
Ulfric is guilty of high treason - in the old (Septim) Empire that was an automatic death sentence (as it usually was IRL). The Stormcloaks are guilty of helping him and since they took up arms againts the Empire, they're most likely treated as combatants.
Also, remember that the basic of Tamriel legal system was "All are guilty until they have proven themselves innocent." ;)
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2012-05-11, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
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2012-05-11, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-05-11, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
Leveling sneak is possibly the easiest skill in the game. If you're playing a sneaky character, have the x15 dagger perk, and have the DB gloves that give you another x2, then you can just go to a castle, wait for night, then repeatedly sneak attack a thane in his/her sleep. You easily have enough damage to kill them instantly, but they can't die. Not only that, it doesn't count as a crime for whatever reason. I've leveled my sneak to 100 in a single (in-game) night before.
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2012-05-11, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
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2012-05-11, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
They stand up, say "Stop killing me" or something like that, then go back to sleep. I usually run into the corner when they wake up, then sneak attack again when they go back to sleep. And I imagine so, but I've only ever tried it with the Jarls of Whiterun and Markarth. Should work on any essential Jarl though.
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2012-05-11, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
Anyone seen the preview for Elder Scolls Online? Looks pretty good to me.
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2012-05-12, 02:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
Yeah because the Roman Empire never killed the leader of an enemy without a trial...? Of course he was ordered to do a public execution. They are stating an example!
Yeah... That isn't true. Hammerfell is rebelling because they feel betrayed by the peace treaty; because they were abandoned by the empire despite having a chance of defeating the elves. Not because of some case of "imperial tyranny".
Skyrim isn't rebelling. Skyrim is having a civil war between a large minority that wants to leave the empire because of the empire outlawing Talos worship, and those who either support the empire outright or are pragmatic enough to know they could never survive against the elves alone. Also, please note that the empire outlawing the worship of Talos was mostly a paper tiger, on purpose. They did not investigate rumors of Talos worship as long as the Nords crossed their fingers behind their backs and "swore" they were not worshiping him. It wasn't until Ulfric started his ruckus they were FORCED to really put the ban into practice.Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2012-05-12 at 02:20 AM.
Blizzard Battletag: UnderDog#21677
Shepard: "Wrex! Do we have mawsign?"
Wrex: "Shepard, we have mawsign the likes of which even Reapers have never seen!"
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2012-05-12, 05:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
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2012-05-12, 09:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
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Rest in Peace:SpoilerMiko Miyazaki, Thanh, Durkon- Order of the Stick
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2012-05-12, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
My understanding is that MMO ranged attacks are hell on the servers unless it's a simple attack/instant damage dealt/attack animation with no projectile physics or skill shots involved. So there goes most magic attacks and archery as ES players know them. I imagine other compromises were made as getting an MMO to work is a lot harder than getting a SPFPSworder to function on similar hardware.
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2012-05-12, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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My extended signature.
Thanks to the wonderful Ceika for my signature.
I have Steam cards and other stuff! I am selling/trading them.
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2012-05-12, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
Yes, the trouble with the 'Enemy Combatants'=high treason argument is that they'd have killed him then and there when they first had him surrounded. You know, in the heat of battle. Then to confirm he was dead, parade around his head on a pole.
And if it were truly an internal civil war, and not a rebellion, then the intelligent move for the empire is to wait while they sort it out, and either pick up troops from the extremely loyal remnants, or throw their forces in to smash the disloyal victors.
As for Skyrim Online, I don't see a point in bothering. The early shots look terrible. I'd expect better from a SuperNES. And if it's WoW like, why should I play this and not WoW?
The problem with ranged attacks is that they've got the Servers doing everything, in an effort to prevent cheating. So they end up overloaded, and come to a grinding halt.
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2012-05-12, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skyrim IV: Oblivion
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Rest in Peace:SpoilerMiko Miyazaki, Thanh, Durkon- Order of the Stick
Krunch- Looking For Group
Bill- Left 4 Dead
Soap Mactavish- Modern Warfare 3
Sandman- Modern Warfare 3
Ghost and Roach- Modern Warfare 2
Gabe- Dead Space 2
Dom- Gears of War 3
Carmine Brothers- Gears of War series
Uriel Septim VII- Elderscrolls Oblivion
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Apple Jack's parents