The ExFighter

[Hiro Protagonest]

I see, thanks. It violates WBL and exploits infinite loops, neither of which was done here, so not of interest to me in this context.

When the thing you created can't be harmed by the D2 crusader, while standing unarmed and unarmored right next to him, I don't think whether or not you used infinite loops matters.

[TuggyNE]

When the thing you created can't be harmed by the D2 crusader, while standing unarmed and unarmored right next to him, I don't think whether or not you used infinite loops matters.

It's a matter of style, don't you see?

[toapat]

When the thing you created can't be harmed by the D2 crusader, while standing unarmed and unarmored right next to him, I don't think whether or not you used infinite loops matters.

D2 crusader relies on ignoring the wording of the stance though. as the stance requires a facing maximum roll, not a modified roll.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

What exactly do you think the fighter is expected to have?

If you're talking nothing but numerical bonuses, then even at the lvl 9 V lvl 20 setup the fighter has next-to-no chance. It's rather an absurd assumption though. Noone chooses to only pick up equipment with numerical bonuses and nothing else.

If we're talking spell-blades loaded with dispel magic, something that grants true-seeing, a ghost touch, riverine weapon to bypass incorporeality and ethereality, etc. Then the fighter -may- have a decent chance of victory.

The bolded item seems perfectly reasonable to me. I think toapat over reated a bit.

My point is, as several of testers in the wiz 13 vs. fighter 20 challenge that lvl 20 WBLmancy could almost definitely defeat a lvl 13 wizard. With lvl 20 WBL a fighter could use superior action economy via belt of battle and UMD'd Celerity (I known the legality of activation items of immediate action spells is a hot button issue) to spam UMD'd MDJ and Greater Dispel Magic till the wizard is begging for death.

If I remember correctly Doc Roc said he wanted to defect to team fighter and nobody stepped up to challenge his WBLmancy. I think that needs to be considered when assessing the value of the very fun and interesting Wizard 13 vs. Fighter 20 threads.

[toapat]

The bolded item seems perfectly reasonable to me. I think toapat over reated a bit.

Not really. If the only reason the Fighter is winning is because they just bought their victory, then its not really fair to the wizard, who has to work for it.

Edit: Also, WBLmancy doesnt count because then the thing that is giving the fighter a victory isnt the fighter, its money

[Hirax]

Lightning Strike means ExFighter goes first.

Not unless you have some form of celerity. I was also just assuming Ex went first in my original build, but that I was using celerity to move away and wait for a good opportunity to attack, Ex doesn't really have a good way to pursue a wizard that's stalking from what I saw.

Edit: I was also thinking about all the negative comments about whether the OP is a fighter-type or whatever, and maybe they are, but the challenge of the thread really has nothing to do with fighter type abilities, and to the extent I agree with this post. You'd really be better off labeling this as powerful WBL use, not any sort of class optimization, as none of your dangerous abilities come from class features, and to that extent you're misleading people into thinking this is a fighter versus wizard thread, when it's really a WBL versus wizard thread. You'd get rid of a lot of people's assumptions about how the thread should operate just by labeling it correctly.

[Augmental]

I'd like to propose a challenge to Anthrowhale: make a wizard killer without any spells or powers at all, or outside help of any kind. No True Mind Switch, no UMD shenanigans, no hired backup, nothing. You can still buy any magic items you want; you can even buy scrolls if you want, you just can't use them. In exchange, the enemy wizard isn't allowed to use outside help either; this includes summoning and calling spells.

[Venger]

Not really. If the only reason the Fighter is winning is because they just bought their victory, then its not really fair to the wizard, who has to work for it.

Edit: Also, WBLmancy doesnt count because then the thing that is giving the fighter a victory isnt the fighter, its money

so... VoP fighter vs wizard then?

I guess that means that wizard doesn't have any spells in his spellbook other than the ones he learned from leveling up, since he would have bought those with money as well, and that would just be "giving the wizard a victory"

[ShurikVch]

(27) Rebuild and inhabit a Protean body.
(28) Hire a Psionicist to Psychic Chirurgery regain lost level.

You can't do it.

Player’s Handbook II, Chapter 8: Rebuilding Your Character, Race Rebuilding, Racial Hit Dice (pg. 199)
"If your character’s new race has any racial Hit Dice, you must subtract class levels until his effective character level is the same as it was before the rebuilding occurred. You can choose the lost levels from all those the character has, regardless of the order in which they were gained."

Hagunemnon have at least 44 HD.
20-44=-24
At the very least you lose all class levels

But even if you somehow can do it, you ECL will be 56, not a 20.

Also, form-changing have nothing to do with fighter and everything with magic...

You can do it more simple: just play the Hagunemnon from the very start!
Hagunemnon (Protean), just like about 3/4 of all epic monsters, planned as playable creature and have this racial traits:

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• +42 Strength, +26 Dexterity, +28 Constitution, + 10 Intelligence, +12 Wisdom, +24 Charisma
• Large Size
• 50’ Movement
• +28 Natural Armor bonus to AC.
• 44HD Aberration (Shapechanger), which grants skill points, Feats, BAB, & Base Save Bonuses.
• Racial Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot
• Darkvision 120’
• Natural Weapon (Slam)
• Damage Reduction 10/epic
• Spell Resistance 39
• Regeneration 50
• Psionics (Sp):

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At will —detect thoughts, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, knock, nondetection, plane shift, suggestion. Caster level 20th, save DC 22.

• Destabilize Form (Su):

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If a protean hits with two or more slam attacks in the same round, it partly destabilizes its foe’s physical form, dealing an additional 4d6+31 points of damage as well as 2 points of temporary Constitution damage. If the victim is drained to 0 Constitution, its dead body is only so much clear fluid that drains away unless somehow preserved by friends of the victim.

• Alter Shape (Ex):

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A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action. In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes). Whatever its present form, the protean retains all its own special qualities. Plus, it gains the advantage of up to four extraordinary abilities from the forms it mimics (but not spell-like or supernatural powers). The assumed form can be no smaller than a flea and no larger than 200 feet in its largest dimension (make sure to take into account rules for reach and size modifiers to AC and melee attacks). Incorporeal traits can also be assumed, which counts as a single extraordinary ability. If a hagunemnon assumes a partial form that confers an extraordinary ability already possessed by the creature, only the better of the two abilities is retained. No matter its form, the protean can never make more than five attacks using a full-round action. However, it may substitute a melee attack form for one of its slam attacks, using its own base attack bonus and Strength modifier to damage, but dealing base damage appropriate to the attack type.

• Automatic Languages: ???
• Favored Class: ???
• Level Adjustment -8

[Averis Vol]

how come when people talk about going easy on fighters they always assume that limiting themselves to core will do the trick? Seriously; if you want to go easy on the beat sticks limit yourself to anything but core, and they finally may have a chance to come out on top (Doubt it, but maybe).

[Kazyan]

I'd like to propose a challenge to Anthrowhale: make a wizard killer without any spells or powers at all, or outside help of any kind. No True Mind Switch, no UMD shenanigans, no hired backup, nothing. You can still buy any magic items you want; you can even buy scrolls if you want, you just can't use them. In exchange, the enemy wizard isn't allowed to use outside help either; this includes summoning and calling spells.

I've been toying with a cheeseless-mage slayer that fits those qualifications. Do Handle Animal, mundane commands, or Wild Cohort qualify as outside help?

It starts with Fox Spirit Totem and is probably going to get weirder from there.

[toapat]

so... VoP fighter vs wizard then?

I guess that means that wizard doesn't have any spells in his spellbook other than the ones he learned from leveling up, since he would have bought those with money as well, and that would just be "giving the wizard a victory"

No, the Fighter is not allowed to add depth in the form of things he can not normally do. If you can find a fbf that gives you 1/day dispel magic, then you can have a magic item of upto 17/day

[Acanous]

Re: Antimagic field and Disjunction.

Your creature's Ex ability is "Radiates an Antimagic Field in a 100 foot radius" yes?
It is an emination, which means that it is a continual effect from the source, but... So is the spell Antimagic Field.

Antimagic Field
Range 10 ft.
Area 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance see text


Now, under Disjunction, it spells out very specifically how Disjunction destroys AMFs. Given that it can destroy AMFs that are already eminations, it must follow that it can destroy your antimagic field as well, if that is your only defense.

Now, it isn't your only defense- you've also got that "My AMF is nonmagical" going for you.

For that, I refer to the text of Disjunction, which I shall spoiler. Pay careful attention to the wording in paragraph 2.

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All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined. That is, spells and spell-like effects are unraveled and destroyed completely (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does), and each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item for the duration of this spell. An item in a creature's possession uses its own Will save bonus or its possessor's Will save bonus, whichever is higher. If an item's saving throw results in a natural 1 on the die, the item is destroyed instead of being suppressed.

You also have a 1% chance per caster level of destroying an antimagic field. If the antimagic field survives the disjunction, no items within it are disjoined.

You can also use this spell to target a single item. The item gets a Will save at a -5 penalty to avoid being permanently destroyed. Even artifacts are subject to mage's disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. If successful, the artifact's power unravels, and it is destroyed (with no save). If an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish. Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device.

As you can see, "You also have a chance~ of destroying an antimagic field." is in addition to the consequences to magical effects detailed in paragraph one, and the consequences to magic items detailed in paragraph 3.

I'd say that Disjunction is a valid method of destroying an antimagic field, no matter the source, based on that.

[Hirax]

I'd say that Disjunction is a valid method of destroying an antimagic field, no matter the source, based on that.

The bigger question is for how long. I don't think anyone disagrees that disjunction does it, Anthrowhale is just trying to duck it by saying it comes back up too quickly for the destruction to matter. Nobody has rushed to Anthrowhale's defense with his interpretation, so as far as I'm concerned that incarnation of Ex has been beaten whether Anthrowhale will concede it or not. I'll give another look to his next incarnation some time later.

[toapat]

The bigger question is for how long. I don't think anyone disagrees that disjunction does it, Anthrowhale is just trying to duck it by saying it comes back up too quickly for the destruction to matter. Nobody has rushed to Anthrowhale's defense with his interpretation, so as far as I'm concerned that incarnation of Ex has been beaten whether Anthrowhale will concede it or not. I'll give another look to his next incarnation some time later.

I have to agree that there is enough Shrug in the answer of how long the AMF is down that it cant be said to be definitively beaten.

Here is my Opinion: Wish

Specifically, 4 wishes.


the first is to make an arrow that strips a single Su Ability of your choice for 1 minute.
The second is to wish for your next attack to hit
The third wish is to transform the AMF into a Dead Magic Field
The fourth wish is to remove the DMF so you can get back to killing the abomination

[Acanous]

The bigger question is for how long. I don't think anyone disagrees that disjunction does it, Anthrowhale is just trying to duck it by saying it comes back up too quickly for the destruction to matter. Nobody has rushed to Anthrowhale's defense with his interpretation, so as far as I'm concerned that incarnation of Ex has been beaten whether Anthrowhale will concede it or not. I'll give another look to his next incarnation some time later.

Given the wordings, while it is ambiguous, I would wager it stays off at the very least until ExFighter's next action. There's no example I can find of ANY recurring effect, once disabled, coming back online during the same round before the originator's initiative.

Examples I can find of similar Ex effects, it stays off: Permanently, for a year and a day, for one lunar month, for one week, until the next time the creature rests, for (X)d(Y) rounds, or until reactivated during the creature's turn.

Nowhere can I find an example of an effect that comes back online immediately, or during the same turn as it was deactivated. If you could find any example of such, I will reconsider that argument.

[Anthrowhale]

Elder Titan....Epic Spellcasting

This appears valid. An Elder Titan does have Epic Spellcasting as feat, and does have an eatable brain. As you point out, it's quite a large brain to eat. This is pretty interesting as I hadn't realized it was possible.

You're back at the conversation with Psyren though. Epic Spellcasting was an acknowledged vulnerability in the original post. If you want to pursue this, I'd suggest pursuing it in a manner that _does_not_ use mitigating factors, as that seems like a simple fix to the brokenness of Epic casting.

Ex doesn't really have a good way to pursue a wizard that's stalking from what I saw.

Ex doesn't have a good way to pursue, but there is a good method for avoiding conflict: use a free action to take Umbral Blot Planar Travel and warp out.

You'd get rid of a lot of people's assumptions about how the thread should operate just by labeling it correctly.

It's a good suggestion. I don't consider this just about WBL, because the class levels give a potent offense and good saves. These have not come into play much yet except w.r.t. RandomGuy's approach.

I'd like to propose a challenge to Anthrowhale: make a wizard killer without any spells or powers at all, or outside help of any kind.

It's a good challenge, but it appears impossible to satisfy as far as I know. What we established with Dex in the last thread was that a Mailman approach can break through any defense short of damage immunity.

You can't do it.

The wording was a bit misleading. I didn't mean "use the rebuild rules in PHII". I meant "use the astral seed rules".

It is an emination

No---it is a similar effect, but that word has a very specific meaning and it was not used in the description.

I'd also note that the spell does not emanate AMF, because it would then cancel itself. Instead, it creates an emanation of AMF. Disjunction therefore breaks the emanation put in place by the spell in the normal case.

arrow that strips a single Su Ability

What is the point of this?

Examples I can find of similar Ex effects, it stays off

Where are these examples from? There are very few dispellable Ex effects in general. In fact, the only one I know of is Colossus AMF.

[toapat]

What is the point of this?

Deadmagic and Antimagic work differently enough that if you know what you are doing, you can work around the problems using one or the other.

Magical Items do not lose their magical effect on entering a Deadmagic Field, however they do when they enter an Antimagic Field.

Both suppress supernatural abilities

The AMF is generated by an Su ability.

Thus, i can hit you inside the DMF and remove your Su Ability to make AMFs

[Anthrowhale]

The AMF is generated by an Su ability.

Nope, it's Ex.

I updated the original post in various ways to reflect the current discussion.

[toapat]

Ah, then i just alter Wish #1 then to remove the chosen Ex.

Antimagic Fields dont go through Dead magic Zones

[Anthrowhale]

Ah, then i just alter Wish #1 then to remove the chosen Ex.

Antimagic Fields dont go through Dead magic Zones

(Ex) AMF should go through a dead magic zone.

But, as long as you are wishing the AMF into a DMF, why don't you just wish the AMF away? And why do you think there is no save for that sort of thing?

[toapat]

(Ex) AMF should go through a dead magic zone.

But, as long as you are wishing the AMF into a DMF, why don't you just wish the AMF away? And why do you think there is no save for that sort of thing?

In most typical situations, it is preferable to be under the effects of Dead Magic (No Line of effect, magic items still function) then Anti-Magic. IIRC (and im not entirely certain about this), Cheater of Mystra cant bypass Deadmagic for instance, they have to chizzel through it using Miracle spells, one 40' radius at a time.

[Acanous]

No---it is a similar effect, but that word has a very specific meaning and it was not used in the description.

I'd also note that the spell does not emanate AMF, because it would then cancel itself. Instead, it creates an emanation of AMF. Disjunction therefore breaks the emanation put in place by the spell in the normal case.

Nowhere in the second paragraph of Disjunction does it say that it is ending a magical effect when destroying an AMF. It just destroys AMFs. Kind of like how you can use Flour to counter Invisibility, even though Flour is nonmagical. It's a specific exception in the spell, which in this case destroys anti-magic fields. It doesn't care if the AMF has been put there by magic, gods, or fuzzy blue aliens.
On the second point, yes, the spell does eminate an anti-magic field. It's listed on the effect (One ten foot emination, centered on you), and the duration is not instantanious. So it actually is generating it, and not countering itself- There ARE rules for two anti-magic fields interacting. (Such as the Anti-magic layer of a Prismatic Wall)

The name is a little misleading- Anti-Magic field isn't really anti-magic in the way Anti-matter is with Matter. It seems more closely tied to radio jamming, really- it's an emination of junk on the magic frequency that's mucking things up and making it impossible for most spells to function properly.
If you want a fluff reason for why Disjunction works, consider that Disjunction *Purges* that frequency of *Everything*.

As far as RAW is concerned though, if it's called an Anti-Magic field, it's a valid target for Disjunction's second ability; the chance to destroy anti-magic fields.

[Hirax]

Ex doesn't have a good way to pursue, but there is a good method for avoiding conflict: use a free action to take Umbral Blot Planar Travel and warp out.

It's a good suggestion. I don't consider this just about WBL, because the class levels give a potent offense and good saves. These have not come into play much yet except w.r.t. RandomGuy's approach.

You're right that it isn't only about a WBLing protean, but that is the keystone without which the build isn't noteworthy in any way, and therefore it should be the headliner, not some sort of class archetype. Sure the saves are helpful, but they're not the central feature. I don't see a scenario where your offense comes into play, you basically admitted to that when you posted what you'd do in response to having someone kite you by going first with celerity. Because of this, I will continue to assume the wizard effectively acts first. Not literally, several rounds will pass before the first strike is made presumably, I'm just pointing out that unless you can actually do something with winning initiative or lighting strike, you're better off allocating resources elsewhere.

A closer inspection of your newly chosen protean features indicates that you are relying on an obvious typo, a 3.0 magic immunity convention that slipped into 3.5 without getting errata, and that barely isn't covered by the Rules Compendium, technically. It's quite amusing that they did manage to update another monster properly on the very same page, as you point out. If you really want to do that, go right ahead, but be advised that it's likely to be looked on as dubiously as someone trying to enforce the fact that monks technically aren't proficient with unarmed strikes, and thus face a -4 penalty to attack rolls with them. To be clear, I'm not disagreeing about what it says and does, just pointing out that it's a new type of dirty pool that hadn't been brought to the table until now.

But with that said, no freedom of movement? Without it you're more vulnerable to a mind flayer than ever. Thanks to the AMF disappearing, jacking up a grapple mod to far beyond what you have posted is easy (edit: ulitharids from Lords of Madness would be used instead). A wizard just needs to defer their initiative to after their familiar. During the familiar's turn, the wizard casts twinned greater celerity (remember that twin is only a +1 metamagic with the build I posted), use a standard action to blow up your AMF (if it's still there), and if that fails, go home and try again tomorrow. If it works (or if the AMF wasn't there, use the extra standard action to cast pyrotechnics, to create some happy new year fireworks), use a move action to snuggle up with you, and a full attack which will get all 4 tentacles stuck to you. The familiar's turn ends, the wizard's starts, and Ex's brain is extracted.

[Kelb_Panthera]

No, the Fighter is not allowed to add depth in the form of things he can not normally do. If you can find a fbf that gives you 1/day dispel magic, then you can have a magic item of upto 17/day

Then even VS a 9th level wizard the fighter has very little chance.

Activating a scroll of force cage would be trivial, and the fighter has no way to escape while the wizard debuffs him to uselessness and turns the battlefield around his cage into a guantlet of doom. At 11 contingency comes online and it's game over, no questions asked.

[toapat]

Then even VS a 9th level wizard the fighter has very little chance.

Activating a scroll of force cage would be trivial, and the fighter has no way to escape while the wizard debuffs him to uselessness and turns the battlefield around his cage into a guantlet of doom. At 11 contingency comes online and it's game over, no questions asked.

the original question was Soundly Trounce. it looks more like the Wizard here has time to do several musical routines before even continuing with his trounce, which i believe would be a Resounding trounce.

thus, Lower

[Kelb_Panthera]

the original question was Soundly Trounce. it looks more like the Wizard here has time to do several musical routines before even continuing with his trounce, which i believe would be a Resounding trounce.

thus, Lower

Well that statement is wildly unclear.

If I catch your meaning, you're saying that what I described isn't a "sound trouncing" because it takes too long?

I disagree. From activating the force cage, the wizard's no longer in any danger whatsoever. That it takes him several more rounds to ensure the fighter's demise is imaterial. He's still utterly dominated the encounter.

As long as he's managed to aquire an extra +4 to his caster level (not difficult) there's not even any chance of the scroll failing to activate. Unless the fighter wins initiative and starts within charging distance, he's doomed.

[toapat]

Well that statement is wildly unclear.

If I catch your meaning, you're saying that what I described isn't a "sound trouncing" because it takes too long?

I disagree. From activating the force cage, the wizard's no longer in any danger whatsoever. That it takes him several more rounds to ensure the fighter's demise is imaterial. He's still utterly dominated the encounter.

As long as he's managed to aquire an extra +3 to his caster level (not difficult) there's not even any chance of the scroll failing to activate. Unless the fighter wins initiative and starts within charging distance, he's doomed.

No, simply your wizard has enough time to take a theatrical aside without issue, it is thus nolonger a sound trounce because he is not required to soundly and swiftly destroy the fighter.

[Kelb_Panthera]

No, simply your wizard has enough time to take a theatrical aside without issue, it is thus nolonger a sound trounce because he is not required to soundly and swiftly destroy the fighter.

Utterly screwed is utterly screwed. If you require a certain time-frame to give it the specific label of "a sound trouncing" then we're just mincing words instead of actually disagreeing.

[toapat]

Utterly screwed is utterly screwed. If you require a certain time-frame to give it the specific label of "a sound trouncing" then we're just mincing words instead of actually disagreeing.

does a 7th level wizard still break the fighter easily? or does he finally have some measure of trouble?