When you play the Game of Thrones...

[Seerow]

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New contestants for the throne: Flower knight and boyfriend. I didn't get the feeling that either of them were in anyway real players in the game. Was I suppose to have?

Eh, not really. Honestly, that scene between them you saw was added, and their role in the game doesn't really show up until book 2 onward. Though if you remembered that Renly was Robert's brother, it could have been guessed he'd become more of a player, I certainly can't blame anyone for not suspecting it

Ned vs Jamie: I didn't see a fight between equals. I saw Ned with his superior weight and probably superior muscle power throwing an all out aggressive attack on Jamie (Power Attack much?) who was easily, almost casually, defelcting said assault. The only time things went bad for Jamie was when he left Ned lock swords with him. Since Ned is bigger (Fat and muscle it looks like) locking swords is in Neds favor, and yet Jamie held his own there. I took him getting pissed at the guard who injured Ned as being angry because he, Jamie, was just getting warmed up and enjoyed the sport of it.

Interesting that you note that. It is a big part of Jaime in the book that he is one of the best Swordsmen in the realm. It is bashed over your head repeatedly that this guy isn't just good, he's among the best, with Ser Arthur Dayne being the only one I recall offhand being credited as definitely his better.

I was kind of worried that it wouldn't translate to screen. We don't have a lot of people talking about how awesome Jaime is with a sword, and it's harder to get across skill with a sword via choreographed fight scenes. They also spent a lot more time in the show playing up Ned's ability with a sword. In the books he never picked up a sword (even the confrontation from the end of this episode was modified. In the book Jaime tells them to leave Ned alive, but kill his men, then rides off rather than confronting him directly.... Ned's injury in the book comes from his horse slipping in mud and falling on his leg. Seriously. I actually much prefer the show's rendition of this).

What I'm trying to get across here though is that Ned was made out to be a better swordsman in the show than in the book, and Jaime's abilities with a sword were pretty much ignored, and yet out of the scene as a non-reader you still got out of it that Jaime is a far better swordsman. So I guess they did something right.

something more about the coming winter... I didn't get any Wall antics this episode. Have they all gone Lord of the Flys now?

There's a period where not much really is happening up on the Wall. This episode covers a few weeks where nothing of note is happening but training continuing. We should get back to the Wall within the next episode or two when there's something interesting worth looking there for.

[Seerow]

Oh by the way for those of you non-readers out there watching the show, there is a forum out there with a thread specifically for speculation among non-readers, with pretty harsh moderation regarding readers sticking their noses into it. You can check it out here. I figure if you're wanting to avoid spoilers but still enjoy speculation that is probably more up your alley than talking to those of us here who while responding might let stuff slip that actually is important.

[SuperPanda]

Love the Gato avatar by the way.

Actually the interaction I am enjoying is as a non-reader (will remedy that though because the show has been great) sharing my experience so far with readers. Things like the sword fight really brighten my day.

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The posts by readers on the forum seem a little upset or miffed because they see two characters not set up in the books as an even match to clash and the one close up in the sequence has them look evenly matched. From my reader-less, expectation less, view point I see Ned looking very angry and really throwing himself behind his attacks while Jamie is smirking the whole time like he's enjoying himself. For me, the actor's visually filled in all the context I needed to know who the better swordsman was (and that Jamie didn't even consider the possibility Ned Stark could hurt him).

Last episode I gave a brief "here's how I feel on the plot so far and here's what I want to see happen." and I noticed some of the readers saying things that sounded like it renewed their interest in the show.

I'm an odd duck with fantasy. I've enjoyed the genre on the whole, but have a knack for running into bad book recommendations. As such I hadn't read Lord of the Rings when the movies came out. Because I loved the first movie I went back and read the books. Naturally the books are better. The curious bit for me was that once I was a fan of the books the movies weren't as good anymore. They were still great, and they stand alone very well, but the loose something in comparison. The comparison itself isn't even fair as the medium's for story telling are very different.

I also love Terry Pratchett and have enjoyed the live action films made of the Discworld books to date. The Going Postal screenplay deviates from the book in a lot of places in order to make more-or-less the same story for a medium with different rules.

So far the changes I've heard the tv show made versus the books have been in a similar fashion, changes made to accommodate the medium of serialized television drama. Being a fledgling writer (only a couple publications so far, a couple poems and short stories), and someone who dabbled in stage acting and film making in the past, I really love seeing the intersection between the text audience and the film audience. I also love seeing how the changes in the film medium evoke a similar response to the original text medium's methods. What changes, why it changes, what changes work, what changes don't.

This all might be summed up best with, thanks for the link but I like it here. You all will have to make do with my nicknames for those characters I don't yet know.

[hamlet]

As far as the sword fight goes, also keep in mind that Ned was wielding Ice, which despite its appearance in the show, is actually nearly close to twice as large in most dimensions (maybe not length, but surely in width, mass, and such, and definately quite a bit longer and would be worn on the back rather than at hip) and would need to be wielded that way.

Also keep in mind that Ice is Valyrian Steel, which has not been mentioned in the show that I recall, which means that . . . well . . . even in the hands of an amatuer, that sword is very dangerous and quite capable of some extraordinary things.

That Jamie was able to blithely swat it away a number of times really would speak to his prowess.

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It's also implied in the book that one of the reasons Jamie didn't physically engage Ned himself was that he had no particular desire to face that particular sword. Ned's skills were neither talked up nor displayed in the novels, but it's certainly implied that he was more than capable with that blade.

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No. Really. SPOILER!!!!!

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Damn shame about what happens to it, really.

[Dienekes]

A note there SuperPanda. Jaime never believes anyone can hurt him. He'll jump off Casterly Rock because he thinks he's invincible, and often tends to be right. Not that your interpretation of the scene is wrong, in the books Ned is clearly an inferior swordsman but I have a feeling Jaime would fight with that smug smirk until he actually realized he was about to lose.

As to who the best swordsman in the kingdom is GRRM has been oddly cryptic about it. Needless to say Jaime thinks he's the best but other great swordsman that could probably give him a run for his money were Sandor Clegane, Garlan Tyrell, Syrio Forel, and maybe Greatjon Umber.

[hamlet]

A note there SuperPanda. Jaime never believes anyone can hurt him. He'll jump off Casterly Rock because he thinks he's invincible, and often tends to be right. Not that your interpretation of the scene is wrong, in the books Ned is clearly an inferior swordsman but I have a feeling Jaime would fight with that smug smirk until he actually realized he was about to lose.

As to who the best swordsman in the kingdom is GRRM has been oddly cryptic about it. Needless to say Jaime thinks he's the best but other great swordsman that could probably give him a run for his money were Sandor Clegane, Garlan Tyrell, Syrio Forel, and maybe Greatjon Umber.

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Well . . . there are arguments to be had. They're all tremendously capable, though I'd argue that the Greatjon isn't skillful so much as he's a bit of a berserkang. I've always felt that they're all "the best" at their particular style and method.

Jamie is probably the flat out best when it comes to swordplay, period. At least, until . . . He's even able to best certain folk with his hands bound and his legs chained.

Syrio is just remarkable, as long as he's not forced too far outside of his comfort zone and stuck with a practice sword.

We've never seen Garlan hold a sword in anger, so can't say.

Gregor, I would argue, while a very good warrior, is just outclassed by the others. He's very much a practical kind of warrior which, combined with his disregard for his own life, carries him through most times.

Actually, I'd say that the best swordsman would have to be Arthur Dayne, a posthumous character. Even Jamie flat out admits more than once that Dayne put him to shame, especially when he was carrying Dawn.

[Seerow]

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Love the Gato avatar by the way.

Actually the interaction I am enjoying is as a non-reader (will remedy that though because the show has been great) sharing my experience so far with readers. Things like the sword fight really brighten my day.

Thanks. And that makes sense, I just figured I'd link it, in case. I know a lot of book readers are actively watching the thread for the entertainment value of the sorts of things the non-readers come up with.

As far as the sword fight goes, also keep in mind that Ned was wielding Ice, which despite its appearance in the show, is actually nearly close to twice as large in most dimensions (maybe not length, but surely in width, mass, and such, and definately quite a bit longer and would be worn on the back rather than at hip) and would need to be wielded that way.

I don't think it was Ice. We saw Ice in the first episode, and it was massive, requiring two hands to use, and seeming hard to swing. The sword he uses in this fight seems like it's smaller, I'd imagine Ice is used for more formal occasions and ceremony, whereas this sword is what he carries around with him regularly.

Also keep in mind that Ice is Valyrian Steel, which has not been mentioned in the show that I recall, which means that . . . well . . . even in the hands of an amatuer, that sword is very dangerous and quite capable of some extraordinary things.

Valyrian Steel was mentioned when describing the dagger, but it hasn't been explained in any sort of detail at this point.

As to who the best swordsman in the kingdom is GRRM has been oddly cryptic about it. Needless to say Jaime thinks he's the best but other great swordsman that could probably give him a run for his money were Sandor Clegane, Garlan Tyrell, Syrio Forel, and maybe Greatjon Umber.

Sandor and Syrio, maybe. Greatjon I don't remember ever being described with particular swordfighting ability, or Garlan for that matter. Maybe my memory's just rusty though.

[hamlet]

I don't think it was Ice. We saw Ice in the first episode, and it was massive, requiring two hands to use, and seeming hard to swing. The sword he uses in this fight seems like it's smaller, I'd imagine Ice is used for more formal occasions and ceremony, whereas this sword is what he carries around with him regularly.

I'm assuming, actually, that it was supposed to have been and that the prop just couldn't always be that huge sword we saw in the prologue maybe simply because Bean isn't strong enough to swing it around. I'd imagine that there are few men in the world today who could.

And also, he does use the sword as his standard weapon. It's just that we don't see him actually using it any. Ned is one of those guys that isn't a blood knight. He doesn't pull a sword unless he has to, which is probably one of those factors that went a long way into making his reputation as a warrior less than that of Jamie or Sandor.

Valyrian Steel was mentioned when describing the dagger, but it hasn't been explained in any sort of detail at this point.

I know. I'm bringing it up for the purpose of the discussion.

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[Dienekes]

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Well . . . there are arguments to be had. They're all tremendously capable, though I'd argue that the Greatjon isn't skillful so much as he's a bit of a berserkang. I've always felt that they're all "the best" at their particular style and method.

Jamie is probably the flat out best when it comes to swordplay, period. At least, until . . . He's even able to best certain folk with his hands bound and his legs chained.

Syrio is just remarkable, as long as he's not forced too far outside of his comfort zone and stuck with a practice sword.

We've never seen Garlan hold a sword in anger, so can't say.

Gregor, I would argue, while a very good warrior, is just outclassed by the others. He's very much a practical kind of warrior which, combined with his disregard for his own life, carries him through most times.

Actually, I'd say that the best swordsman would have to be Arthur Dayne, a posthumous character. Even Jamie flat out admits more than once that Dayne put him to shame, especially when he was carrying Dawn.

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Oddly, I believe that the two that GRRM almost always uses as examples to describe the best swordsman were Jaime and Sandor (I think that's who you meant other than Gregor right?) which makes me think they're on more even footing than the rest of the lot.

As to the others, aye Forel is amazing and Garlan is untested. But his training regime is second to none normally dueling against 3 knights at a time and often coming out victorious is very impressive.

One said note about Greatjon is that he possibly performs the most amazing martial feat in the entire series completely offscreen and told in about 2 sentences. Very disappointing there, which is why I add him to the list but with the added "maybe." Personally I think the rest are all on very high footing with Greatjon being a step behind. Maybe on a good day he could beat the rest but I'd say the odds are against him.

And yeah, Arthur Dayne is the only one GRRM confirms was the best swordsman of his time. And he was good enough for the tower mass of ego known as Jaime Lannister had to admit Arthur was better than him. No contest really there.

[hamlet]

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Oddly, I believe that the two that GRRM almost always uses as examples to describe the best swordsman were Jaime and Sandor (I think that's who you meant other than Gregor right?) which makes me think they're on more even footing than the rest of the lot.

As to the others, aye Forel is amazing and Garlan is untested. But his training regime is second to none normally dueling against 3 knights at a time and often coming out victorious is very impressive.

One said note about Greatjon is that he possibly performs the most amazing martial feat in the entire series completely offscreen and told in about 2 sentences. Very disappointing there, which is why I add him to the list but with the added "maybe." Personally I think the rest are all on very high footing with Greatjon being a step behind. Maybe on a good day he could beat the rest but I'd say the odds are against him.

And yeah, Arthur Dayne is the only one GRRM confirms was the best swordsman of his time. And he was good enough for the tower mass of ego known as Jaime Lannister had to admit Arthur was better than him. No contest really there.

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No, I actually meant Gregor in that instance whom I believe to be technically (as in technical expertise) slightly better than his brother. Sandor might edge him out because of the aforementioned disregard for his own life and practical workmanlike skills. I.e., he doesn't fool around, kills it till it's dead, and moves on. It's important to note that in the end, while he's good at one-on-one combat, and even in the midst of a war, he's not good enough to keep himself up fighting against his brother's dregs in an inn.

And yes, he's able to unhorse Jamie, but that's likely a difference between jousting and actual combat, which is one of the points in the books. Interesting to note, though, how Sandor does in actual combat.

It's just my opinion that I don't think he's that tremendously great in terms of skill, just in how he uses what he's got.

[Dienekes]

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No, I actually meant Gregor in that instance whom I believe to be technically (as in technical expertise) slightly better than his brother. Sandor might edge him out because of the aforementioned disregard for his own life and practical workmanlike skills. I.e., he doesn't fool around, kills it till it's dead, and moves on. It's important to note that in the end, while he's good at one-on-one combat, and even in the midst of a war, he's not good enough to keep himself up fighting against his brother's dregs in an inn.

And yes, he's able to unhorse Jamie, but that's likely a difference between jousting and actual combat, which is one of the points in the books. Interesting to note, though, how Sandor does in actual combat.

It's just my opinion that I don't think he's that tremendously great in terms of skill, just in how he uses what he's got.

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Well Sandor was kind of drunk during that fight at the inn. And I don't really see how you can keep the idea that Gregor was better than Sandor after the Jousting incident which in the book is described as Sandor just standing there parrying everything Gregor can throw at him.

[hamlet]

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Well Sandor was kind of drunk during that fight at the inn. And I don't really see how you can keep the idea that Gregor was better than Sandor after the Jousting incident which in the book is described as Sandor just standing there parrying everything Gregor can throw at him.

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Good point on drunkenness.

And just because Sandor is able to stand up to his brother briefly while the other is flying off the handle in a blind rage (and keep in mind that the book version of that scene was MUCH shorter and called off much quicker) doesn't make him a better fighter. It just means he was able to successfully interpose himself without getting sliced in half.

[thorgrim29]

Wasn't Ned the one to kill Arthur Dayne? Well, him and his 6 dead friends or something like that

[Seerow]

Wasn't Ned the one to kill Arthur Dayne? Well, him and his 6 dead friends or something like that

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Yeah Ned and 6 friends vs Arthur Dayne and 2 others, and only Ned and Howland Reed out of the 7 survived.

A lot of people wonder if we're actually going to see that flashback or not. Personally I doubt it.

[hamlet]

Wasn't Ned the one to kill Arthur Dayne? Well, him and his 6 dead friends or something like that

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Details of that episode are sketchy in the extreme. Nobody is sure what went on there except for one living person, and he has not appeared in either book or show.

All that we know for sure is that six people (Ned and five companions including Lord Reed) confronted three knights of the Kingsguard (including Ser Arthur Dayne and ex-Lord Hightower) and only Ned and Reed walked away from it.

It is implied that it took all six of the companions to take on three of the knights of the guard since each was immeasurably more badass than their opponents and that Dayne was the greatest of the lot taking the combined skills of most of the surviving companions of Ned to deal with.

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Just what the King's Guard was doing there (almost half its membership no less) in the first place is a matter open to speculation.

[thorgrim29]

I certainly hope so... Doubtful considering the cost of equipping 8 knights plus Howland Reed versus the narrative importance of the scene, but man would that ever kick ass. Well, they could use it to introduce Howland.

[hamlet]

I certainly hope so... Doubtful considering the cost of equipping 8 knights plus Howland Reed versus the narrative importance of the scene, but man would that ever kick ass. Well, they could use it to introduce Howland.

Not at all going to happen. Show producers and writers are on record saying "no flashbacks."

But yes, it would be unuterably cool if they could manage it.

Another problem is that nobody but the author knows what really happened, and he ain't talking about it. Yet.

[Seerow]

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Another problem is that nobody but the author knows what really happened, and he ain't talking about it. Yet.

GRRM has apparently shared more details on the story's future with the producers than he has with anyone else other than his wife, so if what really happened is important (such as for the R+L=J theory being true), then they would know about it, and be able to integrate any important details into the show.

[hamlet]

GRRM has apparently shared more details on the story's future with the producers than he has with anyone else other than his wife, so if what really happened is important (such as for the R+L=J theory being true), then they would know about it, and be able to integrate any important details into the show.

I know, but none of us are the people in the know, so I will still say that nobody really knows except those that know.

And yes, it's either R+L=J or it's something so far out of Left Field that nobody would expect it.

[Seerow]

I know, but none of us are the people in the know, so I will still say that nobody really knows except those that know.

And yes, it's either R+L=J or it's something so far out of Left Field that nobody would expect it.

I dunno, there's plenty of other theories out there. None have quite as much textual support, but no matter what it ends up being, there will be something supporting it and someone somewhere saying "I told you so!".

I've even heard a few people (non-book readers) suggesting Ned+Cercei or Ned+Robert. I've also heard Benjen+random person (with Ned claiming Jon to protect Benjen's life), and several other left field guesses.

[hamlet]

I dunno, there's plenty of other theories out there. None have quite as much textual support, but no matter what it ends up being, there will be something supporting it and someone somewhere saying "I told you so!".

I've even heard a few people (non-book readers) suggesting Ned+Cercei or Ned+Robert. I've also heard Benjen+random person (with Ned claiming Jon to protect Benjen's life), and several other left field guesses.

Heard a few of those myself. Some of them even a little whackier (one involving the Others). I tend to write them off as a little too out there.

[VanBuren]

I always find it interesting to see what people who have no knowledge of the books come up with in the show. Fascinating really.

Suffice to say, you're in for a lot of big surprises in the next couple episodes.

This, really. I haven't finished A Game of Thrones yet, but I'm still ahead of the show, so it's interesting to hear show-only people speculate about what's going to happen when I already know.

I don't mean it as an insult or anything, it's just really interesting.

[TheSummoner]

Ok... So I've been following the show since the first episode and the thread since it was posted... But this is my first time commenting.

I haven't read the books, but the way I saw the Ned vs Jamie fight was that Jamie wasn't really trying. Jamie wanted Ned alive, so he was trying to wear him down with no intention of going for the kill. Ned was fighting against superior numbers and had just watched his men die, so he was throwing everything he had into it. Jamie on the other hand was just trying to prove a point (and until he and his men just walked away at the end, I was assuming trying to take Ned alive). "I am better than you. I am kicking your ass without even trying. I want my brother back. This is your only warning. Next time I won't drag this out."

Also, the dagger through the eye thing came so quickly that I almost fell out of my chair... Though I don't remember his name, I was half expecting that guy to be somewhat important... Maybe not main character material, but a recurring secondary... Boy was I off...

[Zmflavius]

GRRM has apparently shared more details on the story's future with the producers than he has with anyone else other than his wife, so if what really happened is important (such as for the R+L=J theory being true), then they would know about it, and be able to integrate any important details into the show.

Actually, I don't think he even shares details with his wife, who doesn't ask anyways.

[Seerow]

Actually, I don't think he even shares details with his wife, who doesn't ask anyways.

I'm pretty sure I've seen commentary from her that indicates that she knows a lot about the story. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not.

[Imperial Psycho]

Loras and Renly's.....interaction in the latest episode came a little out of left field for me. I don't remember that being in the book... Not that I have any particular problem with it, it just doesn't seem all that relevant.

[Eldan]

I'm afraid of heights.

That scene with the Imp's cell made me hold my stomach and rock back and forth with my eyes closed for a minute or two.

[Flame of Anor]

Dathraky (Spelling?)

---- vs Jamie

*Dothraki
*Jaime

It is implied that it took all six of **** to take on three of the **** since each was immeasurably more badass than their opponents

Well, immeasurably or twice, if you want to bring math into it.

[Johel]

Also, the dagger through the eye thing came so quickly that I almost fell out of my chair... Though I don't remember his name, I was half expecting that guy to be somewhat important... Maybe not main character material, but a recurring secondary... Boy was I off...

I knew that he wasn't somebody important and that he was going to be killed or maimed the very instant he went :
"-If you threaten my lord..."

That's usually a very good introduction for a Curb-Stomp Battle or at least the Worf Effect.

[Zmflavius]

Loras and Renly's.....interaction in the latest episode came a little out of left field for me. I don't remember that being in the book... Not that I have any particular problem with it, it just doesn't seem all that relevant.

It was never outright stated (well, maybe there were a couple imputations) but I think GRRM did leave several hints and later confirmed it outside of the books.