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2012-09-18, 08:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
That's fair. I forget, can Sneak Attack only be used with Finessable weapons as-written? Because if not, I can definitely imagine brawny Rogues who don't particularly need Dexterity if they gain a different bonus Background rather than Thief or Thug. (And there certainly will be more options than just those two, eventually.) And they were recently discussing options that would be alternatives to Sneak Attack, too ...
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2012-09-18, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Consider the character creation process. If dice rolling, a spellcaster player may have a natural 17 or 18 for his casting stat so will want to put the +2 into another score that's important to him. In Point Buy, a player may be willing to pay the cost for a high stat in his prime and will use the +2 in another stat to save some points. For example, if he's comfortable with a 14 he'll only pay for a 12 allowing another stat to be a 12 or have no 8 at least and put the +2 in his secondary stat to make it 14.
If they follow the 4E model of every class being Dual-ability score dependent, then a +2 to either score does well.
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2012-09-18, 10:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Since the Psionic is going to be 1 of the base classes in the next edition of Dungeons & Dragons, I hope that class works with abilities base off of this list: http://indigolifecenter.wordpress.co...nic-abilities/ to minimize headaches when using the class.
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2012-09-18, 11:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
The point isn't to allow for tons of flexibility. The point is to allow each race to do well as many different classes, while still retaining their racial flavor. Of course you can help out the player by allowing them to allocate stats wherever they want, but the point of game design is to put obstacles in the players path, not take them away.
5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2012-09-18, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-19, 02:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Last edited by Zombimode; 2012-09-19 at 02:07 AM.
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2012-09-19, 02:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
At least in theory, the basic racial traits of a race are supposed to represent the gross physical traits of the race(or at least cultural traits that are so essential to the race they are instinctual), and the sub race is supposed to represent more cultural or societal differences. So, for example, there may eventually be a Dwarf sub-race the represents a Dwarf raised among humans.
As written, the races only party meet those design goals(I can accept that stoncutting might be instinctual to dwarves, but axe and hammer training?). Though to be noted, races are not even close to being done. Apparently, the base Core System is mostly done(though it will likely continue to receive revision throughout the next 2 years), and right now they are working on the classes, specifically the four core classes(so far, the cleric is mostly done, the rogue fairly close, the fighter still under development, and the wizard not really started). The races, equiptment, spells, and monsters presented are all pretty much stubs just there so what they do have is playable until those areas of the game are tackled."Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."
-Shadowrun 4e, Runner's Companion
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2012-09-19, 04:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
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2012-09-19, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
I was commenting on your thought that a wizard wouldn't want to put a +2 in a score that's not intelligence. I was showing that's not necessarily true.
If I can't have flexibility then why play? Here's an obstacle: Player, you can't do anything. Have fun.
A game is a series of interesting decisions, not an obstacle course. (Granted a real-life obstacle course could be a fun race.)
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2012-09-19, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Yes, but you're supposed to be making that decision when you choose your race. If you give characters a ton of flexibility in where they put their stat from race/class, then you start to dilute the flavor of those bonuses. If any wizard can get a bonus to +con, then there's no difference between an elf wizard (+int +con) and a dwarf wizard (+int +con).
5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2012-09-19, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2012-09-19, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Just in terms of flavour, ignoring race, why should a Wizard get a Con bonus? Wizards sit around studying.
Jude P.
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2012-09-19, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Well, that does require a lot of concentration and Concentration uses your CON bonus...
Lead Designer for Oracle Hunter GamesToday a Blog, Tomorrow a Business!
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Elflad
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2012-09-19, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-19, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
"Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."
-Shadowrun 4e, Runner's Companion
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2012-09-19, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-19, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Two things. First of all, not everything has to be about fluff. Game mechanics are king, and making working game mechanics ALWAYS takes priority over fluff in every case.
Second, why would anyone in an adventurer profession not try to train themselves to be tougher. Adventuring is the most dangerous and demanding profession out there. If it is possible to train ability scores, that is one someone would logical pick to train regardless of their class role."Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."
-Shadowrun 4e, Runner's Companion
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2012-09-19, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-19, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-20, 07:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-20, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
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2012-09-20, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Backgrounds are almost entirely fluff, though. From the looks of it, 5e is going to try and tie fluff and mechanics together much more tightly than in 3.5 (where refluffing was if not encouraged then at least easy) or 4e (where the fluff was clearly an afterthought).
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2012-09-20, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Really, because the vast majority of what they have done is mechanics. Fluff and story is nice, it can be helpful in building a campaign, but it is also something that can be changed, altered, and ignored. If I don't like the idea that a warlock fae pact gives you a wart, and I can change it and the rest of the system, both mechanics and fluff, work fine.
A mechanic on the other hand is far more important. Changing a mechanic, even a minor one, can be very difficult as it will have far reaching implications as all the mechanics are co-dependant on eachother. If you make say, perception checks based on intelligence, you've made every character, every item that boosts int stronger, and made everything that boosts wis weaker, you've affected the balance of the game. If you do a more dramatic change, like changing a d20 to 3d6, you've completly changed the whole game, all the carefully crafted probabilities are now completely worthless, and you'll either break the game, or make so much work you might as well be making a new system.
Game mechanics are king. Ultimately, if you have to choose between fluff and mechanics, you should choose mechanics every time in game design. Bad or weak fluff can always be made up for by good players, but bad mechanics, things that actually make the game itself no fun to play, ruin the entire experience."Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."
-Shadowrun 4e, Runner's Companion
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2012-09-20, 05:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
I agree on all the particulars but I can't disagree more about the conclusion. Bad Fluff has killed more game systems than any amount of poorly balanced mechanics, while games like D&D WoD and Traveler have become practically household names because of the way they inspired players with their settings and styles. Fluff and Crunch must be in balance for a game to be successful; you can't ignore either and expect to get a good result.
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2012-09-20, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
He's not saying that you need to ignore Fluff, he's saying that if they're in conflict, mechanics usually wins simply because it's easier to mold fluff around a mechanic rather than molding mechanics around fluff.
That's not to say that you shouldn't look to mold mechanics to fit fluff when you can, of course. A good mechanic that's backed up with good fluff is far superior to a good mechanic backed up by bad fluff. It's only when you can't get the two to work well together, that you need to sacrifice one for the other. Having to do so essentially means you've failed as a designer, but it's still better to have good mechanics and bad fluff than it is to have bad mechanics and good fluff.5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2012-09-20, 05:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Lead Designer for Oracle Hunter GamesToday a Blog, Tomorrow a Business!
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Elflad
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2012-09-20, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Fluff is easier to change than mechanics, yes. But if a system is saying that the fluff for any spell/maneuver/power can be changed to whatever you like at any time, then that is basically saying that fluff doesn't matter. For a roleplaying game, I don't think that's a constructive attitude.
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2012-09-20, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Eh... I can sortof half-buy this argument, in theory anyway. What really sells me on whether I want to try a new system/subsystem/splatbook is the kind of stories that pop into my head when I read it, moreso even than everything else put together. Interesting and innovative ideas will intrigue me, but to actually get it into play at the table the stories have to be there. Otherwise I'll just cannibalize the interesting bits and sprinkle it into my homebrew but the unmolested system itself will forever go unplayed.
It's the reason why I've still yet to try Dungeon World, Old School Hack, or Warrior/Rogue/Mage, I read through them and just think "...What am I supposed to do with this that I can't already do with D&D?" I mean they streamline the process and get you to those delicious nuggets faster and maybe even better than D&D does, but they don't evoke new nuggets that I want to dig up and chow down.
Now, I only half-buy the argument because fluff isn't really necessary to do this, though it helps. Oftentimes I'll come up with a story when reading a book through mechanics, just by saying to myself "Hey, I just came up with a great situation that these mechanics right here are just perfect for modeling/arbitrating." or "Hey, this mechanic sounds like it could do a great job of avoiding narrative structure problem X." Heck, the mechanics alone are what got me into Wushu and Ars Magica. Love Magica's spellcasting mechanic even though I can't stand Mythic Europe as a setting.Last edited by Craft (Cheese); 2012-09-20 at 06:00 PM.
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2012-09-20, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
It depends entirely on the players, doesn't it? What one person thinks is a deep and compelling world, another might think is pretentious and uninteresting.
When I pick up a game, I do so entirely because of the flavor. Star Wars? Sci-fi with jedi is so cool! Dragon Age? That game had a great plot, I'd love to make up my own stories in that universe! D&D? I love magic and swords and dragons! Call of Cthulhu? Ooh, I want to scare the heck out of my friends and myself! Vampire: the Masquerade? Eh, I don't really like vampires all by themselves.
Then once I start playing a game, or maybe even just reading the rules, I make a decision of whether I want to continue based on the mechanics. I took one look at the Call of Cthulhu book and my brain started spinning around in confusion, so I've never actually been in a game.
So I don't think bad flavor (or fluff) kills a game, but it can stop it from ever being born. Since I've never been interested in the world that V:tM presents, I don't even know how the mechanics work. Bad mechanics are what can kill a game.
Your experiences may vary, but of course we're interested in hearing them!Dubhshlaine, Elf Mage, in Eberron D&D 4e
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2012-09-20, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!