Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Worira]

Yeah, so? Giacomo's point was that the rules don't say PCs can breathe. My point is that yes they do.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, I'll try it differently and attempt compromises

To sum up the problems you have with the joker build and how you could still use it if you do not like those certain aspects about it:

1) use of charge items (partial or not)
Yes, if you do not like this, this build is not for you. Or try a monk able to use buffs and magic items that are not charged (some examples are there). For instance, for the joker monk, the key buffs are available also without charged items:
- Enlarge (permanency it for 3,000+ by an npc/pc spellcaster).
- Mage armour (pearl of power and rod of lesser extend from your fellow pc caster)
- Obscuring mist (horn of fog, later eversmoking bottle)
- divine power (ring of spell storing)
- fly (boots of flying)
etc.

2) use of any bought items/reliance on items/reliance on wbl
Yes, if you do not like that in your campaigns, you cannot make big use of the joker monk principle to synergise items and magic with what a monk can already do well.
- Still, then freedom of movement may not be up that often, and thus you can more often use your grappling tactics.
- get buffs from your fellow pc party members for protecting them (it is a group game). Fly, bull's strength, enlarge, mage armour. You name it (but no longer the personal range only buffs like AMF and divine power).
- make full use of your skills and class abilities. The guide provides many hints how to do that.
- point out to the DM that in such a campaign, spellcasters are at a great advantage and what he intends to do to balance it.

3) use of only core rules
Just use the links to non-core stuff provided in the guide; in part also to some builds inside this threads, and those posted in the recent pages.

4) use of grappling as tactics
If you do not like grappling, or you think the rules make grappling for monks suck, then:
- Try out ways to get a good quarterstaff offense (power attack TH bonus works with it); or take stunning fist at first level; multiclass with rogue or other classes.
- try a superhigh defense built, made entirely for scouting and surviving
- try hit-and-run builds (flyby attack, even revive the spring attack route).
- EDIT: also flurrying sais of distance/returning as a halfling monk mounted on a riding dog (hilarious, but why not?) could be an option. A monk with two-weapon fighting, rapid shot and flurry and some means of divine power (or multiclassing after the second flurry attack at lvl 11) could by level 16 get off around 11 attacks per round and still move. Not too bad. But that was also part of the guide from the start- the flurrying thrown monk weapoins thing, not the hafling on a dog thing... END EDIT

Hope these ideas can provide some calm to the discussion.

- Giacomo

[Stupendous_Man]

gia, saying wizards only can make items if hte dm lets them is like saying monks can buy items only if hte dm lets them


by the way, monks can't fly

[Roland St. Jude]

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[Arakune]

*stuff*
- Giacomo

Now we are getting somewhere. I guess the problem here is the tittle: Beating Batman.

You can annoy him and even make him expend a large sum of resources in something he didn't though it could: a non-caster. Beating him? Not so much.

[Sir Giacomo]

Now we are getting somewhere. I guess the problem here is the tittle: Beating Batman.

You can annoy him and even make him expend a large sum of resources in something he didn't though it could: a non-caster. Beating him? Not so much.

Not in a campaign where spellcasters have unimpeded access to magic and the non-casters don't. And even then, they can get beaten until the 9th level spells hit the board, I'd say.

- Giacomo

[Stupendous_Man]

please don't ignor eme

[Signmaker]

please don't ignor eme

By getting a wand of Fly, yes monks can fly. Also, your point was made before, and Giacomo may eventually get to it. He IS a busy man, holding back the forts all on his lonesome.

[Stupendous_Man]

nonono, i meant

Flyby Attack [General]
Prerequisite

Fly speed.
Benefit

When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
Normal

Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.


you can't take the feat if you don't have a fly speed cause you don't meet the prequist

[Worira]

It's been addressed. You meet the prerequisites of the feat while fly is cast, and not while it isn't.

[Stupendous_Man]

huh... so i can take power attack if i have str 12 and then use it after my str goes up?


is the first part of my post ok, about the dm stuff?

[crazedloon]

Or you would assume that all pcs immediately drop dead in the game because nothing says that they get breathing as racial ability

Where does it say I need to breath again? So as far as I can tell by raw I still live without breathing as a racial ability.

[Signmaker]

Where does it say I need to breath again? So as far as I can tell by raw I still live without breathing as a racial ability.

Seeing as there are drowning rules, choking/coughing rules, etc., I would assume that breathing has something to do with it.

[Morty]

Not in a campaign where spellcasters have unimpeded access to magic and the non-casters don't. And even then, they can get beaten until the 9th level spells hit the board, I'd say.

- Giacomo

Oh, for the love off... spellcasters have much better access to magic by the virtue of being spellcasters. Which means they can do all the stuff your monk gets via magic items and they cast spells themselves.

[Sir Giacomo]

True! Humans are humaonids that are described as breathing in the SRD. Ha! Overlooked that one.

- Giacomo

[Skjaldbakka]

huh... so i can take power attack if i have str 12 and then use it after my str goes up?

Not exactly. But if you have a means to increase your strength, you can. Examples of how you might do this:

Bull's Strength spell.
Rage Ability.
Belt of Giant Strength.

etc...


Similarly, by RAW, if you have the ability to gain a fly speed, you can take flyby attack.
Examples of how you might do this:

Wings of flying.
Wild Shape.
Fly spell.

In both cases, you lose the benefit of the feat if you lose the prereq. Also in both cases, if you have no means to at least temporarily gain the prereqs, you cannot take the feat.

Theoretically, you could even qualify for BAB requirements with Divine Power, although doing that would be silly.

Oh, for the love off... spellcasters have much better access to magic by the virtue of being spellcasters. Which means they can do all the stuff your monk gets via magic items and they cast spells themselves.

So they can get spells from magic items and also cast spells. Sir Giacomo's arguement is that certain spells are most effectively useed by a monk. Yes, that requires the monk take a cross-class skill, but the monk actually has lots of feat room, since its intrinsic feats are built into the class.

Spellcasters can cast spells. With UMD, everyone can cast spells. What spellcasters can't do is [insert list of monk class features here]. In a high wealth campaign, where there is a Ye Old Magicke Shoppe, the spellcasters are brought more to a state of balance, because every single one of their class features can be purchased.

You can buy a monk's belt and get wisdom to AC and improved unarmed strike. You can buy a ring of evasion. Which is what, 20% of the monk's class features, if that?

[Vexxation]

Seeing as there are drowning rules, choking/coughing rules, etc., I would assume that breathing has something to do with it.

Yeah, but drowning also sets you to 0 hp, regardless of previous state. So I'd be cautious in obeying those rules.

Also: someone commented on a level one Flurry.

It was comparing the monk's +1/+1 to a fighter.

Giacomo said, paraphrased, "double the attacks, double the chance to hit."

Now, I'm no rocket surgeon here, but I believe Flurry of Blows gives an extra attack in return for a -2 penalty on both. At level one, of course. That means:

Flurry: +1/+1 or (1/20) + (1/20) = 2/20 = 1/10 or a 10% chance to hit AC 20.
Non-Flurry: +3 or (3/20) = 3/20 = 15% chance to hit AC 20.

And Giacomo would support Flurrying in this case? Seems a poor choice. Not ragging on you, man, as much as I'd like to, just pointing out to anyone else who saw it as odd.

[Sir Giacomo]

Oh, for the love off... spellcasters have much better access to magic by the virtue of being spellcasters. Which means they can do all the stuff your monk gets via magic items and they cast spells themselves.

The basic insight is that the spellcasters do not get as much marginal gain out of magic items available as envisioned by the core rules, as the non-caster classes do.

To illustrate: the game assumes that everyone can eventually be protected from no-save enchantment spells (power words) with mind blank. Block the access to that, and power words all of a sudden become more powerful.

Similarly, invisbility becomes more powerful when see invisbiltiy is not available in item form for non-casters.

- Giacomo

[crazedloon]

Seeing as there are drowning rules, choking/coughing rules, etc., I would assume that breathing has something to do with it.

ah you would think as much but those are magical properties of the water

The game assumes the player is of average intelligence to be playing the game so stupid things like breathing is a half hearted argument because it is assumed that you are breathing.

Now my personal opinion on the dnd "economy" is it is ridiculous because no one that is not a adventurer can afford the magic items. Heck if you ask me no one except an adventurer can live in the dnd world as everything and the kitchen sink is out to get you. But back to economy why would a merchant waste his money on buying a wand with only a few charges? It is to much of a nitch product to sell effectively so more often then not that is a net loss for the merchant as no one buys the item and it sits on his shelf till the day he dies (or realizes he is in a shop full of awsome items and becomes and adventurer). Personally (and I realize this is not raw or core) all shops are run by or have a lvl 5 artificer in them. This way they can take those nitch items like partially charged wands drain them of magic and make fully charged wands so that they sell better and are not the above mentioned net loss.

[Stupendous_Man]

taking a feat that you an only use after casting a spell from an item seems.... i dunno, i wouldn't do it.

[Skjaldbakka]

Taking Flyby Attack that way saves you having to take Dodge and Mobility to get to Spring Attack, and a Spring Attack monk is arguably the least viable way to build a monk, at least as part of an adventuring group. My work out solo.

[Morty]

So they can get spells from magic items and also cast spells. Sir Giacomo's arguement is that certain spells are most effectively useed by a monk. Yes, that requires the monk take a cross-class skill, but the monk actually has lots of feat room, since its intrinsic feats are built into the class.

Spellcasters can cast spells. With UMD, everyone can cast spells. What spellcasters can't do is [insert list of monk class features here]. In a high wealth campaign, where there is a Ye Old Magicke Shoppe, the spellcasters are brought more to a state of balance, because every single one of their class features can be purchased.

Which means casters can double their class features where non-casters get some of the casters'. Right, but the problem lies in casters' class features being much more powerful than noncasters'. Fighter can get winged boots so he stands a chance againts flying wizard. A wizard can buy those boots just as easliy and he saves himself 3rd level slot to put Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement or Ray of Exhaustion in.

You can buy a monk's belt and get wisdom to AC and improved unarmed strike. You can buy a ring of evasion. Which is what, 20% of the monk's class features, if that?

20% of all, maybe. All or almost all actually useful monk abilities? Yep.

The basic insight is that the spellcasters do not get as much marginal gain out of magic items available as envisioned by the core rules, as the non-caster classes do.

Of course, because they're more powerful in their own right and have less weaknesses they have to cover with magical toys.

To illustrate: the game assumes that everyone can eventually be protected from no-save enchantment spells (power words) with mind blank. Block the access to that, and power words all of a sudden become more powerful.

Similarly, invisbility becomes more powerful when see invisbiltiy is not available in item form for non-casters.

Right, so if we remove all magic items casters trample non-casters even more. Your point?

[Skjaldbakka]

20% of all, maybe. All or almost all actually useful monk abilities? Yep.

Actually, Spell Resistance and Greater Flurry are pretty significant class features. You can't buy good spell resistance, as SR items don't scale with level well.

If only you could get a full BAB and Greater Flurry at the same time.....

if only.

[Morty]

Actually, Spell Resistance and Greater Flurry are pretty significant class features. You can't buy good spell resistance, as SR items don't scale with level well.

If only you could get a full BAB and Greater Flurry at the same time.....

if only.

If only, yeah. Monks don't, unless you count blowing your WBL on wands used with cross-class skill and therefore failing at least half the time. Which means their flurry of attacks is in fact a flurry of misses. SR would be more significant if it was harder for casters to punch through it.

[Arbitrarity]

Flyby attack is better than spring attack. Not limited to melee, and it's a standard action, rather than an attack.

Feats based off of single use items, etc. as prerequisites are legal as of some rule in CWarrior.

Of course, is this core only? Welll... questionably. If I whip D&D out of the box, with PHB, MM, DMG, will I find that rule? Maybe not. Should I use that rule? Probably, if I recall my sources correctly.

Is the polymorph/wildshape, familiar/leadership complaint still going on?

Also:
A lot of your (Giamoco's) tactics seem to revolve around being solo, or in a party. I'd call this "Schroedinger's party". . Essentially, Giamoco assumes that his party is, pretty simply, doormats. If they are attacked, they will all retreat so he can buff (if he needs the time). They won't be hurt while he takes time to buff. Sneaking around for a while shouldn't result in the party being hurt much, and is certainly contributing. But you definitely have mage armor from party, GMW, maybe GMV, rings of spell storing charged by allies, neccessary buffs not in the arsenal of wands.

The problem is, I think many posters find this rather inconsistient (myself included). Many advocated tactics make it difficult for the party to contribute, while simultaneously, the party doesn't cripple the monk by mirroring such annoying tactics (wait, you were in those black tentacles? Oh well, you're only (level/4(rounded up)+4-str modifier) points away. Remember, at level 8, with 18 strength, that's a mere 2 points difference, assuming you have improved grapple (so you have 153/400 odds of escaping!). Oh wait, you wanted to buff? Sorry, we're in a hurry here. Incidentally, this probably means you'll have difficulty uncorking that bottle this time.
Level 7? Well, 3 point difference, not too bad... only 136/400 though.

This actually isn't as bad in this guide. Bottle is back, but buff dependance is reduced, thanks to spending cash on wands. Which are difficult to use in combat, questionably legal, (Level 6 is the only level with placed wands. Look at the charges on those.)
Worse, when you argue with the monk in a single player environment, you have magical foreknowledge of everything about your opponent. You have buffs from NPC casters, which you either justify with "LEADERSHIP" or money.

You also apply many buffs in your arguments, if not statistics. The problem is, much of the time, you "assume" you have time to use those buffs. The only time where this is guarenteed is if you avoid combat, buff, and attack. This is rarely viable in a party environment. The 5 round parody of a combat is fairly accurate in that this monk needs time to improve himself, quite often, in order to contribute to moderate to difficult fights. I had a character with an extensive buffing routine once. It did not go well most of the time (said character has been streamlined, appreciating a standard and 2 swift actions to buff himself and the party). When it did, he devastated (You take... about 100 damage. Mostly fire, and some arcane). Otherwise, he was left hanging on the sidelines, buffing the party as best he could. But he could not simply walk away from fights while the party attacked, and buff in a corner.

You seem to have worse than schroedinger's wizard, because you are shroedinger's walking wand/scroll emporium. Whether you need a scroll or not, it may appear in an argument. This is a double standard. Claiming you have "foresight" in getting those items is the same thing as a wizard claiming he "is perfectly reasonable in having those spells" if not less reasonable.

You also have a double standard in comparing polymorph/wildshape, and familiars/leadership. Polymorph is broken for a variety of reasons, the foremost being the variety of forms available. Remember the rogue hydra, dishing out a few dozen, if not more d6/round? How abour ravid? Fly speed and a ton of natural armor. Core? Yep.
Animals are much weaker, and with less powerful for their hit dice. Also, they're only one type of creature, rather than half a dozen or more. Polymorph is basically "wildshape +" with lowered duration. It's more powerful. Also, wild-shape is part of the druid class abilities, whereas polymorph is a spell. This makes wildshape seems more "integral" to characters, and the game in general, even if this isn't actually an argument. It's rather like how leadership is an explicitly optional feat, compared to a familiar, a class feature.
Oh yeah, that. Well, I think comparing a smart birdy with low AC, low HP, and about 6 abilities total to a full character in terms of "OMG BROKEN" is... willfully blind, at least. Obviously, a familiar is much weaker than a character and a horde of minions. It has nowhere near the power of a caster of any sort, and trying to compare the two by saying "They both give a companion" is... again, willfully blind, though I have some other words I'd like to use to describe it. If you think a familiar bumps up a wizard's CR by 1, tell me, because I rarely use them. Compare to leadership, which grants a cohort of up to level-2, which is like having 2 character of CR N and N-2, resulting in a EL N+1 encounter (except it doesn't, but if they were seperate, it would. Feats should not be so good as to make your CR raised by 1, on their own.. That cohort is at least half as powerful, if not much more, than the character. You can't optimize familiars much, comparatively.
Also, if you have a wizard cohort, and you're fighting a wizard, I and others question what's really winning the fight.

Don't bother responding to arguments if you're going to rehash the same arguments, please. I, and anyone who has read through this thread, has seen them many times before, and I don't want to be responsible for this degenerating into a Quotefest of epic proportions.

6 points: Party, polymorph, leadership, shroedinger's wand emporium, buffs, and information from nowhere. If you must quote, just abbreviate to "stuff about X" at least, please.

[Skjaldbakka]

If only, yeah. Monks don't, unless you count blowing your WBL on wands used with cross-class skill and therefore failing at least half the time.

My giacomonk build takes cosmopolitan. Succeeds almost all the time by level.... 7 or so. (10 ranks, +2 cosmopolitan, +4 or higher CHA, +2 after succeeding once).

Been awhile back since I posted it. My giacomonk is monk 15/sorc 5 with Ascetic Mage.

You are of course, drastically overestimating the fraction of WBL spent on a wand of divine power, which is the only self-buff we're using that a fighter or barbarian would not also want to get his grubby hands on. Of course, I save a chunk of change by casting my own enlarge person spell.

Also, in my experience, you can pretty reliably get one prep spell up at the start of an encounter.

Edit- You can likely afford a wand of divine power in th 7th-11th level range, depending on whether your DM lets you buy 25c. wands (which I allow in my games). You don't need to use divine power except against big, strong monsters, so assuming those are present in 50% of your encounters, that wand will last you for your next 7 levels or so (3 or 4 levels for a 25c wand).

Buy another one then, and it should last the rest of your career.

*assuming the standard 13.3 encounters/level

[Adumbration]

From SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubty...m#humanoidType

Traits

A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

• Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.

[Skjaldbakka]

Information from Nowhere

I believe he is relying on spellcraft and knowledge arcana, or possibly information gained from the party spellcaster through roleplay. My giacomonk is a spellcaster, and has ranks in those skills, at the expense of certain other skills Giacomo is relying on (namely, stealth and perception).

Thats my personal gripe with the monk (lack of 6+int skill points). Also the non-scaling nature of certain class features (like abundant step).

[Arbitrarity]

Information from Nowhere means things like "The target wizard is flying at these coordinates at exactly this time, so I will time stop right... now! (Oops, I foresaw fumbling the UMD check...) and teleport, then grab him". (Because that seems to be his attack method)
Or how about "Wizard has freedom of movement in a ring. It's on his left pinky. Sunder it" (ok, that's a joke )

[Emperor Tippy]

Just to interject a point, anyone can get a simple weapon at any time. Making a quarterstaff pop into existence is a free action and can be done with a thought.