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2016-10-16, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
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2016-10-16, 09:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
Yeah, but still not everyone is a paladin. Han Solo smuggled stuff. Marvel Superheroes do jerkish stuff all the time yet still work towards the overall good over their own squabbles at the end of the day. Harry Dresden probably has a nonzero LOVE count...
heck, Batman has more than once shown to drop criminals off of buildings as an interrogation tactic, awfully risky for Mr. "No Killing". and busting into criminal hideouts, beating up people there and demanding his information without any warning.
if we discounted every single hero that did something illegal and would probably get them arrested or worse in real life, the list of heroes would be very narrow indeed.Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2016-10-16 at 09:49 PM.
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2016-10-16, 11:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
Fine, my mistake. Please present the part you would like me to address and I will do my best.
In turn, I can see I'm not making myself clear, because somehow I came across as condescending to Yang's intelligence or learning or something, which was not my intent at all. I'll try again.
What you've described are benefits. Benefits are nice. They can be exploited down the line if it becomes relevant.
But benefits are not the same as purpose. For purpose there has to be direction towards a goal. Making Junior a long-term contact for future interrogations is not directly related to a goal Yang is portrayed as having. It is a side benefit, and not one she clearly wants, let alone aims for.
The only goal clearly portrayed in the trailer is that Yang wants to find out what Junior knows about Raven.
Yang's dominance display accomplishes one thing in this regard: it makes Junior immediately admit to not knowing anything about Raven. It's not clear a dominance display is necessary for this, because Yang makes that her #1 tactic. Moreover, it hampers her efforts by precluding follow-up questions, and has what most people would consider a large collateral cost in terms of fighting. If Yang were simply advancing her most obvious goal, she would not lead off with aggression and escalate at every turn before even exhausting her source.
The next most direct portrayal of anything resembling a goal is Yang's enjoyment of fighting. This is a consistent and foundational character trait. That is why I claim that Yang wanted the fight for its own sake: it's the most direct relationship to her character and goals, and there doesn't seem to be a strong alternative candidate portrayed in the trailer.
I keep harping on "portrayed in the trailer" because there's a substantial difference between a reason we can tell a story about and a reason that's in the story actually told.
So what purpose does the fight serve, if it is not an end in itself? What goal does it advance? How is that goal portrayed in the trailer? That is how I approach this conversation.Last edited by Lethologica; 2016-10-16 at 11:57 PM.
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2016-10-17, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
First, let me make clear that this discussion originally started to dispute a single point that LaZodiac made, that Junior was a Legitimate Businessman™. It was not about Yang, or whether she was legally, morally, or "for the greater good" permitted in taking any of those actions. For the record, other than legally (almost certainly not), I don't think there is any one correct answer there, and philosophers could debate it for ages with no conclusion.
But, moving on to what this discussion has become...
The problem with this debate, is that we cannot actually know most of what is relevant to know to make an argument one way or the other. We can assume and extrapolate, but we cannot know with the limited information provided.
What we know:
Yang knew who Junior was, what his nickname was, and what he looked like.
Yang knew that Junior has information, and believed he might hold information relevant to her inquiries.
What we can assume and extrapolate from this, and how Yang acted around him:
Yang has probably been questioning various underground members for a while to suss out this information.
Yang has likely needed to use intimidation tactics to get this information more than once.
Yang has "done her research" and knows that Junior is unlikely to provide any information without being intimidated first.
"My Hobby: Replacing your soap with gravy" by rtg0922, Doll and Clint "Rawhide" Eastwood by Sneak
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2016-10-17, 01:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
The scope of the discussion is not solely defined by post 186 of the thread. You're the only person in the discussion whose initial response to LaZodiac's point was limited to the legitimacy of Junior's business dealings, let alone the followup replies. And since the discussion originated with the question of whether Yang looking psychotic makes sense, the current continuation is entirely within the original topic, and is indeed more substantially relevant to that topic than Junior's legitimacy.
Thank you. This is a useful case. I believe this is a reasonable interpretation of Yang's actions. I think the last statement is pretty questionable, though, and it's terribly awkward of the trailer to force us to make that speculation, when it would be the work of a moment to make it entirely unnecessary.
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2016-10-17, 04:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
Excuse me? Please point to the part of my post which stated anything even close to this.
My post, and the replies to it, were almost solely about the legitimacy of Junior's business right up until this post:
Your post above was the first post which diverged the then current discussion point (and your post was in reply to the then current discussion point), which is one of the reasons I was making it clear why this particular discussion started in the first place before addressing the points you raised separately.
It's entirely relevant within this thread. It was not at all relevant within the context of what we were discussing at the time, but that's ok, conversations evolve — I was simply making a clear distinction between the two to avoid confusion.
I disagree on your last point. The trailer works quite well on its own, it doesn't need to be any longer. We're more than capable of filling in the gaps without needing to have our hands held.
"My Hobby: Replacing your soap with gravy" by rtg0922, Doll and Clint "Rawhide" Eastwood by Sneak
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2016-10-17, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
Rather than quote the majority of the last page at you, I will simply note that your reply isolated a single part of 185 for dispute (Junior as "legitimate businessman"), while literally everyone else continued to talk about the violence Yang inflicted and whether or not it made her look psychotic, along with Junior's characterization. Go back and do a ctrl-f for"Yang" and "psychotic" and "killed" and "violence" if you don't believe me.
As for hand-holding, I suppose I disagree with you on what constitutes hand-holding and what constitutes reasonable use of revealed detail for storytelling. I suspect further conversation along that line will simply turn defensive, because either I'll attack your characterization of the last statement as reasonable, or I'll present my own alternative treatment of that bit of trailer and you or someone else will attack it as time-wasting or hand-holding or whatever. So I'll give that a pass.
After all that, though, what are we left with? A woman who by your own telling goes around the local gangs picking fights and putting dozens or hundreds of people in slings or casts for at best marginal progress towards her goal of finding a single person. I mean, it ain't Deadpool, but...Last edited by Lethologica; 2016-10-17 at 11:42 AM.
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2016-10-17, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
Prior to making my above post, I reread every post between the two mentioned in full.
---
EDIT:
Correct.
Incorrect.
---
The best stories I know don't explain everything. The detail you're asking for is superfluous to the trailer's intent (which you yourself have explained), and would likely just bog down the trailer unnecessarily.
I fail to see your point here. If you're trying to assert that Yang's tactics were morally questionable, I don't see anyone who has argued against that. Indeed, someone has already drawn a parallel to the morally questionable tactics of Batman who, against the law goes around beating up criminals in pursuit of his own ideals.
I will dispute LaZodiac's interpretation of psychopathy (that's either something she's seeing into the characters because she wants to, or poor design of the manga), but not the above.Last edited by Rawhide; 2016-10-17 at 12:00 PM. Reason: Edit
"My Hobby: Replacing your soap with gravy" by rtg0922, Doll and Clint "Rawhide" Eastwood by Sneak
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2016-10-17, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
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2016-10-17, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
Spoiler: Discussion topic
Well, here we go, then.
After some discussion of the crazy-looking expressions used in the manga, LaZodiac made a comment about how Yang's crazy expression makes sense since her semblance is "flipping the hell out," which prompted a discussion about Yang's craziness, including the following posts:
(Extra special emphasis above)
(In response to the above, you said...)
I don't know if this last post counts--I'm guessing the last bolded remark may have been targeted at something other than Yang's unprovoked violence and the resulting injuries, since you go on to talk about Junior's business...which makes your quoting practices a little weird, but I'll let that lie.
Then there's an interlude of six posts talking about illegality before I swing the discussion back to Yang's unprovoked violence. And replies to my post make clear that the discussion of illegality was being viewed in the context of Yang's violence and mentality.
Approximately fourteen posts after that, you start trying to clarify the limits of the "original" discussion, for whatever reason.
I don't know where you're placing the beginning, to make that claim, but to me there's only a small part of the discussion that focused solely on Junior's businesses, and a large part that focused on Junior's businesses and Yang's violence as part of a broader discussion about Yang's mentality. And while I don't know why you even care about representing this discussion as tangential or "evolutionary", I do know I don't appreciate the revisionism.
I wasn't suggesting that stories should explain everything--please don't misrepresent me for your convenience--and I was presenting a cynically reductive version of the trailer's intent. A more complete description would be that it's about fighting and introducing important facets of Yang's character and goals, and the detail I'm asking for is by no means superfluous to that, because the first impression of Yang as someone who uses violence as a first option is by no means a minor point.
Essays and essays and essays have been written about how nuts Batman is in many portrayals. If anything, the comparison strengthens LaZodiac's point.
Separately, my own points of dispute with commenters like yourself, Lord Raziere, and Metahuman1 have mostly been about the rationale for Yang's violence.
My position, in summary, is this: Yang engages in a lot of unprovoked violence, the progress she makes is marginal, the benefits others have argued for are tangential, and her goal is insufficient justification, suggesting that a substantial part of her behavior is due to an unhealthy enjoyment of violence.
Others have argued that the violence is necessary in this environment, and that the benefits are large. At last check, the most recent argument for necessity is that we can extrapolate that violence must have been necessary because Yang used it, which isn't really something I can argue productively, especially when my criticism of that argument is passed off as a desire for hand-holding and stories that explain everything. Meanwhile, the most recent argument for benefits is that Yang gets to come by and ask Junior things whenever she wants, which I argued wasn't substantially related to her goals.
That's the debate surrounding my claims, as I understand it. Your understanding may be different, and that's something we can discuss.Last edited by Lethologica; 2016-10-17 at 01:51 PM.
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2016-10-17, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
...I just figured the manga is using alternate characterization to be perfectly honest. I've got nothing against that either, but it does make me wonder where the show and the manga diverge from one another and if its intentional or just a result of art style.
For example, how would Ruby being a more blood knight type character change the events of the story? Does Yang being a psychopath change her character arc and if so, how?
Heck, there are entire sections of fan fics dedicated to 'what if' type scenarios and I like to think about such things! Just trying to figure out if the manga is doing that, if the mangaka for RWBY is changing things because he/she is viewing the show through a different cultural lens and drawing different conclusions than we are or just trying to provide a different experience. Its fun stuff!
EDIT: ...Huh, apparently it was announced that the manga contains canon events and whatnot. So...does that mean the explanation for the Armored Knight that Weiss fought is canon? Cause I like that tidbit. And also that RWBY may be getting a traditionally 2D animated series. Huh.Last edited by Callos_DeTerran; 2016-10-17 at 02:24 PM.
Warriors & Wuxia: A community world-building project focused on low-magic wuxia/kung-fu action using ToB.
"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
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2016-10-17, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
Replies in blue.
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I wasn't misrepresenting you, I was stating a fact to reinforce my point. Many of the best stories leave vast amounts of details out for the viewer to interpret. And I disagree completely on these details being important for the trailer, we already get those important traits from the trailer as it stands. In fact, in many cases, it's better that the specific details be left out, so that viewers can develop theories and discuss the possibilities. We don't need these specific details, and I propose that the trailer is better off without trying to shoehorn them in.
I'm not as well versed in all the iterations of Batman as you are. Suffice it to say that the versions I know use minimal force where they deem it absolutely necessary (and frequently break the law in other ways). They are most definitely not psychotic.
That said, however, most of these versions are still definitely bad for the city, leaving it worse off than if Bruce Wayne had just used his vast fortunes to improve the city rather than play dress up.
We should not get into a debate about whether the ends justify the means, and nothing I have said should be taken to represent expressing a view one way or the other.
"My Hobby: Replacing your soap with gravy" by rtg0922, Doll and Clint "Rawhide" Eastwood by Sneak
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2016-10-17, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
If that's your view of the discussion and of my claims, I really don't think we're going to get anywhere. So I'll leave off here unless any of the other participants wish to respond to my earlier comments.
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2016-10-17, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
All I know is that in my home town, a business that has a lot of backroom illegal gambling and other nasty stuff burnt down recently, and I did feel a little bad because hey, ignoring the crime, he was trying to run an actual business as well. That's my point.
Anyway Roosterteeth a seasons 1 through 3 retrospective and it's really reminded me how little has happened in the grand scheme of things.
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2016-10-17, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
You aren't wrong on that one.
Season 1 had...
The Entrance Exam
The Jaundice episodes
and Foiling the Robbery at the Docks.
Season 2 had...
Investigation into the White Fang
The Dance
Mountain Glenn
while Season 3 had...
Vytal Tournament
Battle of Beacon
The Fall Maiden (which was woven into the two prior events)
I mean...I'm generalizing a little bit because there's lots more little things that happen between the big ones, but if we're going off the really big plot events there isn't too many. I don't mind though, it gives the events time to breath. I think the only one I really had a problem with was...the investigation into the White Fang. It was wrapped up real fast and I think they could have done more with it.Last edited by Callos_DeTerran; 2016-10-17 at 04:20 PM.
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2016-10-17, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
By and large it makes most of Yangs characterization only possible if she's faking it with a freaking will. All the time. This doesn't work so well given what all we've been shown.
As for Ruby, yes, it changes things alright. She'd have been armed when she crossed paths with Mercury right before Phyrra and Penny went at it in the tournament (blood knight types are typically LOATHED to allow themselves to be made unready for combat under any circumstances.), which could very well have given her the edge she needed to get clear of him and stop Penny dieing, and all that would have come with it.
No dead Penny.
Likely less negativity initially meaning the grim attack would have needed more time to get steam. Meaning it was more likely they'd be able to get Phyrra more protection during the transfer. Meaning it was more likely to succeed. And if it succeeded, no dead Phyrra and likely no fall of Becon and Vale.
Possibly no rape-light with Adam and Blake, or at the very least, Yang having enough back up to NOT loose her arm when the calvary arrived.
Ya know, a though crosses my mind. They made a big deal about how lonely the Maiden's path was and how much it would disconnect Phyrra form people she cared about. And the name, Maiden, that word use to be used to describe virgins. I wonder if that's part of the deal? To hold the powers you have to be a Virgin and you have to remain as such to keep hold of the power?
Would explain that part of it anyway. Though, if it's not, then yeah, I kinda want to slap the damn writers cause then that dialog is there for literally no other reason then a thinly disguised excuse for the writers to keep Phyrra form taking on the powers while there's still time and subsequently preventing Cinder getting access to them, that has no actual merit in universe."I Burn!"
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2016-10-17, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
The way I read the dialogue in volume 3, it was more about forcing another person's Aura into you. What they were proposing wasn't a typical inheritance, but trying to cheat that inheritance by shoving the Fall Maiden's lingering Aura into her. Pyrrha wouldn't have just been Super Maiden Pyrrha, she'd be an unholy fusion of herself and what remains of the proper Fall Maiden. That's... not something anyone can predict the outcome of. It could be a super-powered Pyrrha, it could be a rejuvenated Amber with a fetching new ponytail, it could be an identity-less woman caught in the middle of a war between the native soul and the invader, it could be something fresh and new, with memories of both lives but no actual investment in either, or it could be a something in between any of them. To top it off, Pyrrha knew that, even in the best case, where she remained herself with full control of a Maiden's powers, she would still lose everything important to her. She would become the target of a group that was responsible for incredibly ruthless tactics. She would become the primary weapon of a secret society. And she would have to leave everyone she'd come to love in Beacon without ever telling them why. And she still chose to try.
Spoiler: My inventory:
1 Sentient Sword
1 Jammy Dodger (I was promised tea)
1 Godwin Point.
Originally Posted by Kairos Theodosian
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2016-10-17, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
I think they were talking about how Pyrrha would, by nature of the fact she would need to keep the fact she's the Maiden a secret, need to severe the very same close personal bonds she had finally managed to form in order to keep that secret. That same isolation would also extend to the rest of her life, she would have to seclude herself from others so they wouldn't discover the secret or, worse, try to take the powers from her.
And to be fair, cause I've seen this thrown around a lot, Pyrrha hesitates from accepting the Fall Maiden's powers for a lot of reasons. A very large part of it is because they have absolutely no idea if the transfer will even work, let alone if she would survive if it worked or not. And if it did, they don't know what would happen to Pyrrha in the process...would she still be Pyrrha? Would she be Amber? Would she be some amalgamation of the two? Could something worse happen from messing around with cramming someone's soul into someone else? And if there is the best case scenario where Pyrrha survives the transfer, gets half the Fall Maiden's powers, and is still 'Pyrrha', she would still be giving up the life she had before to become the Fall Maiden.
Worst case scenario? Not only does the transfer NOT work, but it kills Pyrrha and possibly Amber as well, resulting in the powers going to Cinder most likely.
No, Pyrrha has a great many of valid concerns and problems she had to consider before accepting the Fall Maiden transfer and, up until the situation with Penny, was under the impression that she actually had time to think about it. To come to a conclusion based on what she wanted rather than what she felt the world needed because her life was very much at stake.
Not even specifically you Meta, but opinions I've seen elsewhere and in Let's Watch's where Pyrrha should have just jumped into the pod and taken the transfer to become the Fall Maiden...cause people either missed or where ignoring the fact that they, in character, had absolutely no idea what would happen when they attempted the transfer and were understandably leery about such a decision but were backed into the corner on the matter.
EDIT:...I take too long to reply to stuff.Last edited by Callos_DeTerran; 2016-10-17 at 05:20 PM.
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2016-10-17, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
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2016-10-17, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
Warriors & Wuxia: A community world-building project focused on low-magic wuxia/kung-fu action using ToB.
"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
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2016-10-17, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
I have to watch most of this show muted. I cannot stand the sound of Weiss' voice, and generally, Pyrrha's isn't good either. But it's not the voices that are the problem. My experience with what I mute and what I don't has shown me that it's the dialogue, that I have an easier time reading subtitles (or in RWBY's case, just missing it completely) than listening to someone actually say poor dialogue.
Avatar of George the Dragon Slayer, from the upcoming Indivisible!
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2016-10-17, 11:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
Alright..that's...strange. If I had to watch a show muted I'd probably not watch it at all to be honest, its just not the same experience.
So...if you're watching it muted and reading subtitles, or if I gather correctly from what else you said missing them entirely, why do you watch? It can't be the soundtrack, cause you aren't listening to that. Its not the dialogue. Its not the story, I'm guessing. So...why do you watch? Why do you watch a show you are not getting the full experience of then go online to run it down?
No judgement, just curious about the answer!Warriors & Wuxia: A community world-building project focused on low-magic wuxia/kung-fu action using ToB.
"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
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2016-10-18, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
Oh hey speaking of whatever, new World of Remnant is out.
Spoiler
Apparently coastlines that are shallow protect against all the underwater Grimm that exist? That doesn't really make sense.
Also, we finally get to learn what Menagerie. It's not some kind of Faunus ghetto like the name suggests, it's literally an entire island where Faunus live. Reminder that the word Menagerie means "a collection of wild animals kept in captivity for exhibition". Subtle.
And as always, a little spicy "oh but bad things are REALLY gonna happen" teasing from Qrowe, because they sure do love talking about how bad things will happen. Not so much on the showing this off, though.
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2016-10-18, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
Spoiler: Vale WORI think they mean that the relatively shallow waters means that no Godzilla-style Grimm can sneak up on them. In a world where Airships seem to be the major form of transportation, Sea-bound Grimm are probably less of a concern than they would be in real life.
Also, Menagerie is Remnant-Australia. In Vol 3 we got a still shot of some Faunuses (and only Faunuses) watching the Tournament in what looked like an Outback setting. I'm wondering if Velvet's from there, given her noticeable accent compared to the whole rest of the cast.
Also, it seems like Vale is the "normal" Kingdom, from which the other 3 will be compared to.
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2016-10-18, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
Last edited by Lethologica; 2016-10-18 at 01:40 PM.
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2016-10-18, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
SpoilerOkay so the attack of beacon is a legit and actual dark thing. Penny died, Yang got disarmed, Roman got killed. Presumably numerous others got horribly murdered. It's bad.
But I'm really tired of people trying to be ominous in this series it just doesn't work.
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2016-10-18, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
(out of spoilers since it has nothing to do with the WOR)
The Menagerie people = British is just speculation on my part, mostly because I'm pretty sure Velvet is the only one in the entire show who speaks with something other than a generic American accent, and Menagerie seems like it would be the most isolated place in all of Remnant. Though if Beacon was essentially her first experience with Humans, it might explain why she let Team Bully walk all over her in Vol 1 when just about every other Faunus seen so far would have either laughed at them or punched them through a wall.Last edited by Dasgovernator; 2016-10-18 at 04:19 PM.
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2016-10-18, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-10-18, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly
I really, REALLY hope they don't make the racism token characters into also the Australian characters. The context of "all of these people are collectively our message about racism" and "also they're based on the colony of criminals England sent away for punishment" doesn't jell well with me at all.
Basically, I hope it's not something as obvious as this, because Rooster Teeth will attack it with all the subtly of Nora's hammer.
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2016-10-18, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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