Relationship Woes and Advice 21: Time To Go Bar-Hopping

[Vacant]

I know, that is why I said the advice was well-intentioned. As previously stated, my only point is that I've seen similarly advice misinterpreted often enough in the past that I think a cautionary word is warranted and, really, I would avoid using the idea of "lovable" traits or a "best foot" entirely because they're so often taken to mean "traits most people love" or "the foot a gallop poll determined most popular." Everyone decided that, from this, I didn't think anyone should ever change. How, I do not know, but it serves to underscore the point that phrases which seem simple to the speaker can be quite easily and drastically misunderstood.

[DeadManSleeping]

a girl who loves polo shirts and dreams of being swept away by a man who knows the salad fork is the little one and how one should use one's soup spoon.

I must create!

Paul Ogod carries the middle-aged schoolteacher Mary Sue to the top of his castle, where a small table with two chairs and a vase of flowers has been set. His long perfect hair blows in the wind. He takes her to the table, but does not let her go quite yet.
Paul O: I am sorry, my darling, but I cannot bear to let you go. Might you eat as I hold you?
MS: Well, I suppose, if you wish.
Paul O: Splendid! Now, the first dish I have called for us is an assortment of vegetables and spices that I created myself.
MS: A salad is always a good thing to start with.
Paul O: Miss Sue, please remember to use the small fork!
Overwhelmed with ecstasy, Mary Sue faints in Paul O's arms, much like she had just a few minutes ago when she saw him wearing the polo shirt, necessitating his carrying of her in the first place.

My apologies. Back to talking about...things?

[AtlanteanTroll]

It is perfectly natural to get crushes, even when you're in a perfectly happy relationship.

Enjoy it while it lasts - it will disappear.

I realize this wasn't directed at me, but how do you do that? If your single, ask them out I suppose, but if you aren't...

[Vacant]

I must create!

Paul Ogod carries the middle-aged schoolteacher Mary Sue to the top of his castle, where a small table with two chairs and a vase of flowers has been set. His long perfect hair blows in the wind. He takes her to the table, but does not let her go quite yet.
Paul O: I am sorry, my darling, but I cannot bear to let you go. Might you eat as I hold you?
MS: Well, I suppose, if you wish.
Paul O: Splendid! Now, the first dish I have called for us is an assortment of vegetables and spices that I created myself.
MS: A salad is always a good thing to start with.
Paul O: Miss Sue, please remember to use the small fork!
Overwhelmed with ecstasy, Mary Sue faints in Paul O's arms, much like she had just a few minutes ago when she saw him wearing the polo shirt, necessitating his carrying of her in the first place.

My apologies. Back to talking about...things?

Paul O: Why me? Why do you love a wretch such as me, oh glorious Miss Sue?
MS: Do you. . . do you remember how you put the soup spoon in the bowl, then moved it away from you while filling it so that. . . so that. . .
Nodding sagely and lovingly, Paul kisses away her tears: So that it will not spill on my shirt if it sloshes. I recall, Miss Sue. I recall.

[Reluctance]

Dan Brown or L. Ron Hubbard or whoever is going to sell a lot more books and be a lot more widely read than Burroughs...

For all your talk about how there is no such thing as generally better or worse, you seem awfully down on the Browns of the world.

Also, advertising. I don't care how perfect soulmates the two of you are. If you can't get the other person's attention in the first place, nothing will come of it. It's like the old saw says, nobody ever looks across the room and says "they look like they have a lovely personality". Especially once you're out of school and have to forge new social connections on your own.

Also, math. There are only in the neighborhood of seven billion people out there. The numbers fall rapidly when you start placing conditions on things. It's all well and good to say "I won't settle for anything less than ideal". When those people don't think they're being noticed, they're also fond of the refrain "why isn't there anybody good out there?"

[Maeglin_Dubh]

My last three girlfriends had new boyfriends lined up before the breakup even occurred.

I feel like maybe I somehow failed to communicate to my girlfriends, who said they loved me, that we were dating, and that, when dating, you oughtn't try to date other people as well. Maybe that's the problem here.

[DeadManSleeping]

It's like the old saw says, nobody ever looks across the room and says "they look like they have a lovely personality".

Hahahaha. Oh, wait, you were serious.

People do that. Anyone who works in a job primarily involving customer service can tell you that we judge people based on looks and brief interactions. What they might not mention is that sometimes those judgments are positive.

It might be something as complex as a combination of colors and shapes which evoke feelings of both pensiveness and gaiety. Or it might be as simple as a sweatshirt that says "Wibbley wobbly timey wimey". But either way, creating an appearance that advertises your personality correctly is probably better for you than creating an appearance that makes you look, like, so totally hot (life hint: the former will actually make you look hotter anyway).

[Ancano]

Sadly, most people care way more about looks than they do about personality.

[term1nally s1ck]

Yeah, it does; I'm not talking about different stories, either. I'm saying that if The Naked Lunch's exact storyline were to be written in a normal, straightforward fashion, I wouldn't like the result as much. If Benji and Quentin's sections of The Sound and the Fury were written more clearly it would be a lot more accessible and approachable to the vast majority of readers, but the magic that makes it what it is would be gone, even if every detail of the plot were left unchanged. Similarly, I'd rather read the originals than "No Fear Shakespeare."

Dan Brown or L. Ron Hubbard or whoever is going to sell a lot more books and be a lot more widely read than Burroughs, or at least more widely liked by those who read them, but if they all wrote the same book in their respective styles, I know which book I'd rather read, which writer I'd rather be compared to, and which equivalent person I'd bother trying to approach, whether it was more difficult or not.

If you read my post, I said to keep the focus on the parts of your personality that the other person is interested in, not necessarily the parts that are more attractive in general.

If you're looking to make a good first impression, so you don't know what the other person necessarily likes that much, then just think what the type of girl you'd find attractive would be most likely to find interesting about you.

[golentan]

I realize this wasn't directed at me, but how do you do that? If your single, ask them out I suppose, but if you aren't...

Lead a mild fantasy life, or just enjoy the fluttery feeling when you hang out together?

Or, you know, people could hold honesty above monogamy as a virtue. My girlfriend is sleeping with her roommate, and regularly encourages me to go after people, and we have a fine thing going on. Monogamy can be a great thing, but I'm not sure at all it should be the standard by which relationships are judged.

[Vacant]

For all your talk about how there is no such thing as generally better or worse, you seem awfully down on the Browns of the world.

Hey, just because I don't care for them doesn't mean there's anything fundamentally wrong with them, you know? My dad wears polo shirts and he's great, it just isn't for me.

Hahahaha. Oh, wait, you were serious.

People do that. Anyone who works in a job primarily involving customer service can tell you that we judge people based on looks and brief interactions. What they might not mention is that sometimes those judgments are positive.

It might be something as complex as a combination of colors and shapes which evoke feelings of both pensiveness and gaiety. Or it might be as simple as a sweatshirt that says "Wibbley wobbly timey wimey". But either way, creating an appearance that advertises your personality correctly is probably better for you than creating an appearance that makes you look, like, so totally hot (life hint: the former will actually make you look hotter anyway).

I agree with this entirely. I took more time and put more care into some patrons' drinks than others, often before speaking to them. Cool band shirt, pensive look, or who knows how many other things. Anyway, anybody can be pretty, what makes someone actually attractive is the elements of them which show something about their character, or at least which one thinks shows an aspect of their character in the event one is mistaken.

[Heliomance]

How do you distinguish between "nice guy" behaviour and a genuine desire to help your friends in any way possible? A and B came round last night, there were many tears and long conversations. And I had a long talk with A about how she really likes E, and wasn't at all sure what to do, and about how despite the fact that everyone is warning her it's a bad idea (and she's understanding and considering that, and knows she needs to be careful) she can't picture herself with anyone else at the moment. Boy was that a kick in the gut.

But I stayed there, and I listened, and I held her, and I didn't say anything about the fact that I'm still carrying a torch, because that was what she needed.

I hate seeing my friends hurting, I like to help them. I have a fairly strong White Knight complex (that last one I wrote last night for both A and B). Does it make me a "nice guy" that I can ignore the fact that I'd like to go out with this girl to simply be with her when she needs a friendly arm and a comforting ear?

[Vacant]

How do you distinguish between "nice guy" behaviour and a genuine desire to help your friends in any way possible? A and B came round last night, there were many tears and long conversations. And I had a long talk with A about how she really likes E, and wasn't at all sure what to do, and about how despite the fact that everyone is warning her it's a bad idea (and she's understanding and considering that, and knows she needs to be careful) she can't picture herself with anyone else at the moment. Boy was that a kick in the gut.

But I stayed there, and I listened, and I held her, and I didn't say anything about the fact that I'm still carrying a torch, because that was what she needed.

I hate seeing my friends hurting, I like to help them. I have a fairly strong White Knight complex (that last one I wrote last night for both A and B). Does it make me a "nice guy" that I can ignore the fact that I'd like to go out with this girl to simply be with her when she needs a friendly arm and a comforting ear?

No, it makes you a nice guy without quotes. The "nice guy" is the one who does all that without ignoring the fact that he'd like to be with her for so much as a second and later breaks down in indignant fury that all his "nice" acts didn't get him into her pants because niceness is done for the reward of sex, that is what makes it nice. Duh.

[Reluctance]

The good news: Like Vacant said, The Nice Guy is distinguished by the fact that he expects his niceness to rewarded somehow. And the epic snits he throws when that fails to happen.

The bad news: If she sees you as the shoulder to cry on when the guy she really had feelings for broke her heart, get ready to carry that torch for a long time. She doesn't see you that way, and she isn't going to start seeing you that way. Develop a new crush.

(Bonus tip: See how she reacts to that new crush. Real friends will be happy you've found someone, at least until there's evidence to say otherwise. Queen bee types tend to bristle at the idea of anyone else taking up your time.)

[Heliomance]

The good news: Like Vacant said, The Nice Guy is distinguished by the fact that he expects his niceness to rewarded somehow. And the epic snits he throws when that fails to happen.

The bad news: If she sees you as the shoulder to cry on when the guy she really had feelings for broke her heart, get ready to carry that torch for a long time. She doesn't see you that way, and she isn't going to start seeing you that way. Develop a new crush.

(Bonus tip: See how she reacts to that new crush. Real friends will be happy you've found someone, at least until there's evidence to say otherwise. Queen bee types tend to bristle at the idea of anyone else taking up your time.)

Oh, I don't know. I don't believe in the Friend Zone, I think the best relationships probably develop from strong friendships. And while I would like more, I'm okay with just being really good friends. I love her (English doesn't have enough words for love - I mean philia) and I want to keep a close relationship with her, but if "all" that can be is a really strong friendship, I'm okay with that, I think.

If things ever developed, I would be very happy, but I won't be devastated if they never do.

[term1nally s1ck]

There's no 'Friend Zone' as it is usually used, but once she's at the point where she has no attraction for you (which is extremely likely, judging by her willingness to be vulnerable and upset around you), then that only changes if one of you changes as a person somewhat significantly over time.

EDIT: That problem, when attraction is hard to build with someone you're already close to, and when you need to be *more* attracted than normal to be willing to take the risk on a close friendship, is why the 'friend zone' myth comes about. It's a common problem, but it's one that men are much less likely to have faced, so most don't understand it, and just go with 'omg friendzone' cos they heard it from someone else.

[Serpentine]

Hmmm... I ended up in bed with my shoulder-to-cry-on. Dunno if that opposes or reinforces your point... We weren't in a relationship because I was't ready for one yet, although I was in love with him for a while, and the disparity between our feelings cracked the foundation of our friendship and I think contributed to the later end of it.

Related: complaint that'll get me about as much sympathy as "I have too much money" or "I wish I got sick more".

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There's a line in Endless Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, something like "Why do I have to fall for every woman who shows me any attention?" My problem's the counter-point: Why does every guy I show any attention to have to fall for me?
I don't *like* breaking hearts, and I sure as hell don't understand it. Why can't people just like me *exactly* as much as I like them?
I mde a decision that I'd no longer have in-between relationships - it's stringless flings, forever-wuv or nothin'. Now it seems I can't have the former, because for me it always ends up blowing into a Big Deal.

/TMI-whinging

[term1nally s1ck]

He was never at the stage of not triggering any feeling of attraction in you, judging by the 'I was in love with him for ages'. *That* is the point which is very difficult to make anything happen from.

[Serpentine]

I said a while, not ages :P The in love bit didn't happen 'til after we hooked up.

[Rawhide]

Sadly, most people care way more about looks than they do about personality.

"Dude, check out the personality on that chick."
"Man, I'd so have a conversation with her."

[Maeglin_Dubh]

"Dude, check out the personality on that chick."
"Man, I'd so have a conversation with her."

"I would probe her opinion on matters of importance all night long."

[Serpentine]

"I don't know, Tiffany. Guys just don't like girls who don't understand the Socratic Method..."

[Castaras]

*snip*

If it's any consolation, I understand entirely and suffer from the same problem at times. You have my sympathy. *hugs*
It always seems to be I suddenly have people interested in me when I don't want a guy then don't have people interested in me when I do...

[Drascin]

"Dude, check out the personality on that chick."
"Man, I'd so have a conversation with her."

You say that as if it didn't happen with relative frequency, if rarely in those words .

[Iferus]

Okay. I had decided I wanted more than just my friend with benefits. So I joined a dating site just to see what would happen, I got back in touch with some nice girls that I never got to know, and I put a little more effort in this girl from my choir. Seemed like a good idea.

The girl from choir and I have kissed, and I have two dates with lovely girls next week. Sounds good right?


Then this weekend, a girl from theater just swept me off my feet. I never really knew her, but she turned out to be all kinds of awesome.


I think I rolled a natural 20 on my getting-back-out-there-check.

[Coidzor]

It always seems to be I suddenly have people interested in me when I don't want a guy then don't have people interested in me when I do...

So gender equality can exist! Though usually it's phrased as women suddenly finding a man interesting once he already has a relationship who previously wouldn't pay attention to him while he was checking out the market.

Have they all been loserfaces or you eviscerated them that you never kept a bit of contact info in your little red book for future reference?

How do you distinguish between "nice guy" behaviour and a genuine desire to help your friends in any way possible? A and B came round last night, there were many tears and long conversations. And I had a long talk with A about how she really likes E, and wasn't at all sure what to do, and about how despite the fact that everyone is warning her it's a bad idea (and she's understanding and considering that, and knows she needs to be careful) she can't picture herself with anyone else at the moment. Boy was that a kick in the gut.

But I stayed there, and I listened, and I held her, and I didn't say anything about the fact that I'm still carrying a torch, because that was what she needed.

You don't reward that kind of bad thinking with emotional support and then become an enabler for an abusive and deleterious cycle while simultaneously showing yourself to be neuter.

You don't sound like you're being a "nice guy" yet, but that'd be because you don't sound sexually frustrated or like you think that being the neuter pillow who doesn't have feelings that can be hurt or a personality that can be impinged will get you anywhere with her.

[golentan]

Related: complaint that'll get me about as much sympathy as "I have too much money" or "I wish I got sick more".

Spoiler

Show

There's a line in Endless Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, something like "Why do I have to fall for every woman who shows me any attention?" My problem's the counter-point: Why does every guy I show any attention to have to fall for me?
I don't *like* breaking hearts, and I sure as hell don't understand it. Why can't people just like me *exactly* as much as I like them?
I mde a decision that I'd no longer have in-between relationships - it's stringless flings, forever-wuv or nothin'. Now it seems I can't have the former, because for me it always ends up blowing into a Big Deal.

/TMI-whinging

If it's any consolation, I understand entirely and suffer from the same problem at times. You have my sympathy. *hugs*
It always seems to be I suddenly have people interested in me when I don't want a guy then don't have people interested in me when I do...

Whereas I have difficulty on the opposite side. I always care more about people than they do about me. This is not limited to relationships/potential relationships, this is about everybody. I view someone as a friend, they view me as an acquaintance. I view someone as a love interest, they view me as a friend. They view me as a love interest, best not to discuss how I view them. My current relationship seems to be the only exception. Have I mentioned how glad I am with my current relationship?

But yeah, from the other side, better to be a "heart breaker" than to string people along. Doesn't make it pleasant for anyone, but it's still the best of a bad situation.

[Fredaintdead]

So... not exactly me wanting any advice or having any woes... and more of a celebration of me actually putting myself out there and being social.
More inside the spoiler:

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So yeah. Fred went to a RAMS Social tonight (RAMS = Rock, Alternative Metal Society) and found a rather cute girl who was in the same situation he was in, i.e. neither of us knew anyone there and wouldn't have minded anyone walking over and having a chat. So we started talking, and me and her had a little bit in common, and she found me rather funny. Later I bought her a drink, and then we sort of just chatted. Hopefully she'll be there next week.

Main positive: I spoke to an actual living woman and left a positive impression.
Slight regret: I didn't get her number.

At worst, I've made a new friend tonight. At best, I've got a girl thinking "I hope I see that cute guy again."

So... yeah... YAY FOR ME!

[Rawhide]

You say that as if it didn't happen with relative frequency, if rarely in those words .

Considering every relationship I've ever initiated or tried to initiate has been based on personality, not looks, I can agree that it does happen. I'd rather see it happen much more frequently, however.

[rogueboy]

So... not exactly me wanting any advice or having any woes... and more of a celebration of me actually putting myself out there and being social.
More inside the spoiler:

Spoiler

Show

So yeah. Fred went to a RAMS Social tonight (RAMS = Rock, Alternative Metal Society) and found a rather cute girl who was in the same situation he was in, i.e. neither of us knew anyone there and wouldn't have minded anyone walking over and having a chat. So we started talking, and me and her had a little bit in common, and she found me rather funny. Later I bought her a drink, and then we sort of just chatted. Hopefully she'll be there next week.

Main positive: I spoke to an actual living woman and left a positive impression.
Slight regret: I didn't get her number.

At worst, I've made a new friend tonight. At best, I've got a girl thinking "I hope I see that cute guy again."

So... yeah... YAY FOR ME!

Good luck! Related aside: I had something similar to that (except we met at a pool night at a local bar through a mutual friend I ran into while there) a few years back, but never ended up seeing her again, so I never got a chance to make a proper move. Looking back on it, since we had mutual friends, I may have been able to get in contact through them, but I've always been uneasy about involving a third party who knows both me and whoever I'm interested in.