League of Legends XXXIX: Harrowing in the Playground

[ChaosOS]

Note how the end of season 2 patch is hitting EUW and EUNE, now that morello has hit diamond. Proof!

[PersonMan]

I don't get that whole "two champs in one" nonsense considering that e.g. nidalee is nidalee regardless of how or where you play her, and there are enough options in champion select already that you don't really lose out by picking a champ who pretty much only does one thing (like Irelia or Amumu).

In my opinion, I'd rather spend 3150 IP on a champion I can play in multiple ways, since it increases the number of games in which I can have the [champ name] experience in.

If you're coming from a purely competitive (or primarily competitive) then it won't make sense, yes.

also having a ranged auto-attack and a dash doesn't make LB an ADC. Horrendous base stats and no steroids = abysmal scaling, esp. since like every carry in the game gets **** tons of utility these days. LB doesn't do anything.

Eh, I've never tried it, but it seems to have some advantages that I won't dismiss. Sure, it might not be as good as Graves, but it can be fun and effective if you play it properly.

[ex cathedra]

How thorough is your understanding of LB's attack speed? It single-handedly could make her unviable.

[Joran]

My take on the void invasion or w/e Co-Op variant is... uhh... i don't get it. League isn't a very mechanically or strategically interesting game without the psychological aspect of playing against other humans. Similarly, i never got people who just played co-op vs ai. Like, the bots don't do anything. How is that fun? It helps if you have friends with you, but you could say the same about literally any multiplayer game. League doesn't translate well into that format, imo.

I play Co-op vs. AI frequently. It's a nice, stress-free way to get my win of the day and to try out new champs.

And occasionally, I want to turn my brain-off, play Darius, and go 30/0/4 XD

[TheShrike]

And occasionally, I want to turn my brain-off, play Darius, and go 30/0/4 XD

That's when you play Ranked 3s.

[ex cathedra]

Don't get me wrong, Coop has its place. If you don't want to learn a new champ's mechanics in normals or ranked (read: if you're a coward) that's fine, and i'll still infrequently play them with friends who want their FWotD, but like... i have around 100 AI games played total. That's like one AI game for every 20 or so normals/rankeds/customs that i play. I don't understand how people don't get burnt out on AI games despite knowing players with massive AI game:Real game ratios. I'm just wondering about the other side's perspective.

[Math_Mage]

Aether, the dynamics and mechanics of the proposed mode are very different from the dynamics of regular LoL. It's more like an actual tower defense game than a MOBA. Granted, that poses significant implementation challenges w.r.t. developing minion/tower upgrades and so on, but the point is that we aren't really talking about a new League mode so much as throwing the League champions into an entirely new game.

[Drascin]

Don't get me wrong, Coop has its place. If you don't want to learn a new champ's mechanics in normals or ranked (read: if you're a coward) that's fine, and i'll still infrequently play them with friends who want their FWotD, but like... i have around 100 AI games played total. That's like one AI game for every 20 or so normals/rankeds/customs that i play. I don't understand how people don't get burnt out on AI games despite knowing players with massive AI game:Real game ratios. I'm just wondering about the other side's perspective.

Basically, the thing is this. Playing PvP LoL without friends is an extremely unappetizing prospect. Like, the list of things more fun than solo queue I can name includes laying on my bed looking at a spot in the ceiling or painting the fence. But some PvE is quick and gets you the win of the day when you don't have anyone to play with.

As well, it helps that I'm by nature a cooperative person. I have absolutely no desire to "compete" with anyone, and the idea of bothering to tryhard in a game like League of Legends strikes me as alien. But while I don't mind losing myself, making others who DO want to win against other people lose makes me feel like a ****. So Co-op is nice for me. It's the same basic mechanics, only without having to actually worry that you're ruining your teammates' day because you aren't making an effort, since nobody really expects you to and even if we lose (which has happened, with medium bots) nobody actually cares or feels their imaginary prestige drop.

[Teron]

Knew they'd use support Alistar to justify killing jungle Ali. Still makes me sad.

[Godskook]

Ah, but the issue here is that you're not accounting for the changing definition of 'the game as a whole'.

Yes, yes I am. I'm accounting for it a lot. Hell, SweetRein said this:

What are the potentially negative effects this may have on matchmaking during that time on the queues you're draining players from? (hint: think outside of NA)

in response to somebody posting a *PVP* concept. Do you really think a PVE concept is going to prove less detrimental?

If Riot made this game mode, LoL would be more than PvP modes. A lot of people would play this mode and rarely touch Summoner's Rift, if ever, being largely uninterested in PvP excursions. Same reason why Co-op modes are so popular, only here there's much less overlap with the PvPers.

You're describing the problem, not a benefit, at least from where I'm looking.

WTF guys. Seriously WTF. I talked about making something like that JUST ****ING LAST THREAD AND NO ONE CARED, But once someone posts THE EXACT SAME THING THAT I DID ALL OF A SUDDEN IT IS COOL AND AMAZING!?!?

Page 11, this thread. It wasn't *NEARLY* as fleshed out as the concept on the LoL forums. The reason nobody 'bit' at yours was that you really only gave mechanics, and teasers and hype are better achieved with concepts.

I don't get that whole "two champs in one" nonsense

Yes, you do, you say it right here:

considering that e.g. nidalee is nidalee regardless of how or where you play her

But on the other hand, I really don't understand why people think that multiple lanes/roles has no impact on the game, when we all know counterpicking *does*(less than familiarity/skill with a champ, but its there). I would've thought something like:

1.1st pick Jungle Olaf when everyone plays him top.
2.Get 'counterpicked' by the enemy.
3.Your top-laner counterpicks into his own strong champions.

was obvious.

------------------------

Votes so far:

Twitch 2
Karma 1
Wait 1

Personman, I really don't know how to 'log' your vote, particularly cause I know enough about LB to know she really isn't good outside the mage role(I could almost see her running Soraka+LB bot lane, but I doubt that'd work either).

----------------

I vote for the S3 delayed thread title too.

[NineThePuma]

The sad part of the Season 3 delay title is that as of tonight, the End of Season 2 patch is released.

Also, I think the new mode would drag away from the Co-Op vs AI more than anything else, given the fact that the PvP concept given was based on just a variation on normal match making.

[ex cathedra]

@Math: yes, but you're putting them into a format for which they weren't designed whatsoever. The mode itself may have merit, but the logistics necessary to implement it into LoL make the idea completely ridiculous. How would you even begin to overcome the champ/itemization balance issues? This sort of thing is better suited to a game with actual custom games support, something LoL will likely never have

@Drascin
... but is LoL really a worthwhile game without the competitive element? Itemization is boring without enemies who are itemizing against you in return, and the Co-Op AI remains rudimentary at best. If i wanted to play a co-op game, i'd, y'know, play a good co-op game. Diablo-likes, Borderlands/Killing Floor-styled shooters, MMOs, and so forth.

[Forrestfire]

Whoa, the new blackfire torch seems really good. CDR, spell pen, and burn based on maximum health.

[Eiko]

League of Legends XL: Ultin' Gragas Style

Since we need new suggestions, damm you morello

[Drascin]

@Drascin
... but is LoL really a worthwhile game without the competitive element? Itemization is boring without enemies who are itemizing against you in return, and the Co-Op AI remains rudimentary at best. If i wanted to play a co-op game, i'd, y'know, play a good co-op game. Diablo-likes, Borderlands/Killing Floor-styled shooters, MMOs, and so forth.

Not stellar, but not terrible, basically. Far more fun than most MMOs, yet not as much as Borderlands.

[Qwertystop]

I don't quite see what the point is of the "charges" mechanic on it though. Gets one charge per second, expends one charge per second. Only way I can see for it to matter is if it can stack with itself, or maybe if it doesn't generate charges while it's using charges (in which case it still only matters if it has a cap low enough for the buildup between fights to not invalidate the mechanic).

[NineThePuma]

I think AoEs might be the answer to that.

[ex cathedra]

I suspect that new BFT is OP without taking the burn mechanic into consideration.

[Math_Mage]

Yes, yes I am. I'm accounting for it a lot. Hell, SweetRein said this:



in response to somebody posting a *PVP* concept. Do you really think a PVE concept is going to prove less detrimental?

First, SweetRein wasn't ragging on the concept, just asking people to flesh it out more. Since she wasn't saying it would be significantly detrimental, that's not a strong argument that this would be. Second, yes, I do, because a PvE concept and markedly different game type is much less likely to have detrimental effects than a similar game type competing for the same players.

You're describing the problem, not a benefit, at least from where I'm looking.

That's because you're viewing the LoL population as a static, homogeneous pool of LoL players/. In fact, there are many different types of LoL players and not all of them would be playing solo queue 5s if they didn't have Co-op (or Treeline, or Dominion, or Proving Grounds...)--not to mention players who might sign up JUST for this mode. The upshot is that while developing this mode would take a significant toll on Riot, releasing it would not take a significant toll on the current playerbase.

[Nadevoc]

I don't think the Void Invasion would split the playerbase in queues nearly as much as the previous PvP-oriented suggestion, or as much as a new mode (eg another Dominion-style release). The PvE-style map wouldn't appeal so much to folks who are looking for what LoL currently provides - an objective-based PvP battleground. It might split the Co-op v. AI queue base pretty significantly, but I'm not sure how big a deal that would be - matching Elos there isn't such a huge deal, in my mind, since the opposition will always be the same difficulty.

That said, I don't think League really provides a great framework for it. The lore and characters, sure. But the gameplay style I think would stale very quickly against preset waves, and it seems it would make more sense to start more or less from the ground up rather than trying to take the pre-existing structure and patch/modify half of it.

[McDouggal]

Title suggestions: League of Legends XL: Welcome to the (new) Jungle.

I should see if Plentakill/AoD/Badministrator actually has a parody of Welcome to the Jungle, and suggest it if they don't. I don't think Natsumiii could do it (wrong voice).

EDIT: am I missing any of the major bands?

[sonofzeal]

Having talked to many friends who tried LoL once and uninstalled after the first match - yes, I think a more cooperate PvE mode would add a lot to the game.

LoL has an enormously high learning curve. Even "Beginner" bots will wipe the floor with newbies who haven't played MOBAs before. I've been gaming since before NES, and I'm usually quite good at electronic gaming, but it took me a while to get even remotely competent at LoL. And this brutal learning curve, combined with a community intolerant of the struggles of teammates, drives off a lot of new players. A lot. And the overt competitive focus drives off a lot more.

Sometimes I want 5v5 PvP. Sometimes, though, I'm in the mood to just get into a groove and kill some creeps - and for that, really, I have to log out of LoL and boot up... say, D&D Online. If LoL had more cooperative/PvE modes, that'd draw players not with the PvP modes, but from all the millions of cooperative/PvE games on the market. There are gamers out there who want things that LoL is currently not offering, and there are more of them than there are regular LoL players. Not that LoL is going to take over the total gaming market, but there's certainly room for growth.

[Dallas-Dakota]

My vote goes to a Gragas related title.

[ex cathedra]

LoL has an enormously high learning curve. Even "Beginner" bots will wipe the floor with newbies who haven't played MOBAs before. I've been gaming since before NES, and I'm usually quite good at electronic gaming, but it took me a while to get even remotely competent at LoL. And this brutal learning curve, combined with a community intolerant of the struggles of teammates, drives off a lot of new players. A lot. And the overt competitive focus drives off a lot more.

I don't think that competitive games are particularly worried about being attractive to non-competitive players, nor do I think that they should be.

Edit:
I feel like the Gragas title is solidly two threads too old.

[TechnOkami]

Just a thought.

Instead of a Void invasion, it could also be The League vs. Viktor's Glorious Evolution, where its waves after waves of robots (sounds just like M&M! What a coincidence...).

[Math_Mage]

I don't think that competitive games are particularly worried about being attractive to non-competitive players, nor do I think that they should be.

Edit:
I feel like the Gragas title is solidly two threads too old.

Starcraft 2 tried that. This happened. A game with aspirations of being an eSport cannot afford to NOT worry about the casual fanbase.

[TechnOkami]

Starcraft 2 tried that. This happened. A game with aspirations of being an eSport cannot afford to NOT worry about the casual fanbase.

Blizzard also did this to Diablo III, in the sense of not listening to the casual peeps and completely screwing over the game. Blizzard's been having a lot of problems lately.

[ex cathedra]

By non-competitive players I'm referring to players who don't enjoy competing against other players whatsoever; players who only indulge in Coop/Customs. Lots of casual players, if not most casual players, still play normals, don't they? By "competitive players" I don't mean professionals or diamond players but anyone whose preferred gamestyle is PvP.

League's constant update cycle keeps the game interesting for the majority of the player base, and Riot already supports all but the most non-competitive of players with alternate game modes and balance changes that affect the game state at every Elo bracket. Comparing this to Blizzard's mismanagement seems like a huge stretch.

Blizzard also did this to Diablo III, in the sense of not listening to the casual peeps and completely screwing over the game. Blizzard's been having a lot of problems lately.

wat. d3 was hella casual, to the extent that large portions of the franchise's mechanics were over-simplified for d3's release.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Starcraft 2 tried that. This happened. A game with aspirations of being an eSport cannot afford to NOT worry about the casual fanbase.

Indeed. The casual fanbase has to love and play the game for them to be really involved in the competitive angle of the game.

That said, a PvE League map doesn't really interest me, and I'd prefer to see that energy directed elsewhere. Personal preference: I don't think the mechanics of League really lend themself to a PvE environment.

[Math_Mage]

By non-competitive players I'm referring to players who don't enjoy competing against other players whatsoever; players who only indulge in Coop/Customs. Lots of casual players, if not most casual players, still play normals, don't they? By "competitive players" I don't mean professionals or diamond players but anyone whose preferred gamestyle is PvP.

League's constant update cycle keeps the game interesting for the majority of the player base, and Riot already supports all but the most non-competitive of players with alternate game modes and balance changes that affect the game state at every Elo bracket. Comparing this to Blizzard's mismanagement seems like a huge stretch.

A large percentage of Starcraft's fanbase didn't play 1v1 ladder, either. They fooled around with massive team games, against players or computers (technically PvE), and Use Map Settings-inspired customs of both forms. It still contributed massively to Starcraft's popularity as an eSport. Main point is that it doesn't take fans who play the same game type to benefit the game, just fans who play the same game.