OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

[fruityjanitor]

Nah, canon is that the Snarl is an unthinking killing machine that destroys all creation. The phylactery is toast if it makes it into the rift.

The comic describes the Snarl as "growing more intelligent" which doesn't exactly support an "unthinking" killing machine. Do we have a word of god that says this is wrong and the Snarl is an unthinking force of destruction? For that matter, do we have a word of god saying that the comic description is definitely right? It seems the only time anyone has ever interacted with the Snarl (gods included) is to hide from it, seal it away, or get killed by it. Hard to tell from that whether it's an omnicidal maniac or an unthinking force (or maybe something else).

Edit: Totally revised my post after rereading the first few Snarl comics.

[Red XIV]

I did so here Blackwing doesn't stand a chance.

That assumes that Xykon thinks to use Magic Missile. He knows the spell and has cast it before, but that was after Redcloak suggested it and explained why. He's clearly smarter than he usually acts, but he also has shown that even when he really needs it, he's not likely to think of breaking out his least powerful spell.

[rewinn]

The comic describes the Snarl as "growing more intelligent" which doesn't exactly support an "unthinking" killing machine. Do we have a word of god that says this is wrong and the Snarl is an unthinking force of destruction?

Redcloak seems to have studied The Snarl more than any mortal still around (per 545) and still doesn't understand it fully. But he has told O-Chul that what-ever is dropped in there is promptly un-made, so from O-Chul's POV, that's the best thing to do.

* I loved 2nd row, last panel, where O-Chul is basically talking like James Earl Jones/Darth Vader: "Escape Is Not His Plan"

* It's not surprising that O-Chul is better at tactical combat than V; he's been doing it for decades while V has maybe a year? two years? outside of the library.

* Big Question: Where is Redcloak's Sanctum, to which the Word of Recall takes him? Redclock might decide that anything tough enough to break into Xykon's tower & requiring WoR to escape would be bad enough that he wouldn't want his sanctum nearby. OTOH, Xykon's tower is sufficiently protected that some room in it would be an excellent sanctum in case Redcloak is attacked while on the ramparts. Which choice Redcloak made may determine whether R helps keep the Phylactery out of the Rift.
Or ... is Redcloak willing to weaken Xykon now that they're closer to the Goal, at which time R must betray X?

* V's character growth is truly remarkable. Everyone wants the universe to play along, but it is perhaps the tragedy of students of the arcane that they actually *can* "make the laws of physics shut up". Maybe why so many wizards are jerks (...present company excluded of course!) V is learning that There Are Limits no matter how smart you are and how hard you try, and yet (like O-Chul) that is no reason to give up. Thus V has a chance to mature.

* OTOH, Xykon is perfectly willing to erase the entire universe to avoid being Without Power. Can we assume his dog's True Name was Rosebud?

* I can see O-Chul grappling with Xykon to give Blackwing one more round of escape time. X would shake him off but not waste time paralyzing him, in order to go flying after or shooting skeet at BW. Once BW has Rifted the phylactery, the logical thing for O-Chul, being the Ultimate BadAss GoodGuy, is to kick V over the side (death being kinder than being Xykon's prisoner) and then leap over himself.

Possibly The Resistance saves one of our heroes (...and they would be a GREAT help!) But more likely, the imp fishes V's head out of the mess at the bottom of the tower & teleports to Durkon for maximum irony points.

NecroPrincess animates O-Chul's corpse but it's just not fun for Xykon to torment anymore. Euw!

Plot thickens.

[glissle]

The phylactery might plausibly end up neither in the Rift nor back with Team Evil...

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As motub pointed out, Qarr could Plane Shift in. Then he could grab the phylactery, perhaps catching it as it falls from an ex-raven, or perhaps snatching it away from Blackwing within Xykon's solid force cage (where no one would even see what's happening), and Plane Shift back to the IFCC.

Like the floating-in-Snarl-prison idea, this would prevent the creation of a new phylactery and strongly motivate Xykon not to let his soul leave his body, but there would also be the possibility of bargaining.

The kicker is that the soul splice would then have bought something for the IFCC even without V's survival.

Incidentally, I'll be disappointed if Xykon immediately picks an appropriate spell to stop Blackwing without even allowing it a round's worth of flight toward the Rift.

[Hydro]

Haaaaa Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!

[Rev. George]

And the Necklace goes into the rift:

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Waking the Snarl, who until this point has not lashed out or taken any action as he did in the "doodle" cartoons http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html He then proceeds to destroy AC, causing Team evil to leave

-+G

[Morgan Wick]

I don't think anyone saw this coming...

So, apparently V's throat ISN'T crushed since s/he can speak, and depending on your definition of "flying spell", s/he couldn't have escaped with Feather Fall either.

It's actually rather unlikely the phylactery gets destroyed here. Xykon isn't distracted by V this time, and is right on their heels, and should have SOME way of dealing with the situation, and if Blackwing bailed in the middle of battle last time he'll really bail on heading into THAT thing.

[Wanderer]

If V doesn't have Feather Fall prepared he FAILS UTTERLY at being a caster. You ALWAYS have Feather Fall. Even if you're adventuring in the Great Flat City in the Flatland Plains on continent Flat. Better to waste a first level spell slot or two than to fall somehow and end up as the new tourist attraction: the Flat Wizard.

[homeosapiens]

Thanks to Giant im not going to read up answer, read up answer till next strip :-). I somehow agreed with Jept on no fly thing, and now i can rest easy :-).

The Giant is Great.

And this proves he cares about what we think sometimes :-).

God bless the Giant and make him get well(som1 said that he is ill, or sth), so he could add more strips and post more often(my first time seeing him not in the archive, apart from "new comic is up").

[Kilarny]

Burlew, you are a genius. Genius! I can hardly wait for the next page...

[Lupy]

That is an amazing last panel. I haz want next comicz! Roar!

[Dagren]

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As motub pointed out, Qarr could Plane Shift in. Then he could grab the phylactery, perhaps catching it as it falls from an ex-raven, or perhaps snatching it away from Blackwing within Xykon's solid force cage (where no one would even see what's happening), and Plane Shift back to the IFCC.

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Forcecage is transparent.

If V doesn't have Feather Fall prepared he FAILS UTTERLY at being a caster. You ALWAYS have Feather Fall. Even if you're adventuring in the Great Flat City in the Flatland Plains on continent Flat. Better to waste a first level spell slot or two than to fall somehow and end up as the new tourist attraction: the Flat Wizard.

V has memorised it before, but that was apparently before she got Overland Flight. With an hour/level flight spell, contingencies requiring Feather Fall become that much rarer. Still, it's not like she's really got anything better to fill those first level slots with.

[DSCrankshaw]

V has memorised it before, but that was apparently before she got Overland Flight. With an hour/level flight spell, contingencies requiring Feather Fall become that much rarer. Still, it's not like she's really got anything better to fill those first level slots with.

Once you get overland flight, that's all the more reason to prep Featherfall. You're much more likely to find yourself very high off the ground needing a way to get down without being killed. Hitting a flying wizard with dispel is such an obvious strategy that a countermeasure's pretty much a given for any competent wizard. (Granted, as long as he's not too high up, the gentle end to the spell should keep him safe, but flying out of range of grounded attackers will take the wizard up above the safe level.)

[Red XIV]

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and if Blackwing bailed in the middle of battle last time he'll really bail on heading into THAT thing.

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Blackwing wouldn't have to fly into the rift. Or even particularly near it. Just fly above it, drop the phylactery, then vanish and let gravity handle the rest.

[Dagren]

Once you get overland flight, that's all the more reason to prep Featherfall. You're much more likely to find yourself very high off the ground needing a way to get down without being killed. Hitting a flying wizard with dispel is such an obvious strategy that a countermeasure's pretty much a given for any competent wizard. (Granted, as long as he's not too high up, the gentle end to the spell should keep him safe, but flying out of range of grounded attackers will take the wizard up above the safe level.)

Depends on what exactly you are using your flight for. If you are flying high out of archery range, then yes, I agree, the feather fall effect built into flight spells probably won't do, but if you are just flying out of melee range then you don't need it. What I was actually referring to though, was that when you aren't flying, getting knocked off a cliff or falling in a pit trap would need Feather Fall, but not if you have Overland Flight. (And even with Overland Flight, most characters seem to stay on the ground outside of combat)

[choie]

You ALWAYS have Feather Fall. Even if you're adventuring in the Great Flat City in the Flatland Plains on continent Flat.

Just wanted to give you props here! Loved this.

I actually do think V has Feather Fall. I have no D&D knowledge or reasoning to back it up, except that V has always had Feather Fall (well, I can think of at least two times, anyway), so I never thought that wasn't a possible safety net.

Maybe V simply doubts that it'll be of much use if they're not invisible.

[Logalmier]

Okay, I'm confused, why is V no longer choking? And why didn't she take damage from the meteor swarm? I don't think O-Chul could have used lay on hands to cure V's windpipe, and even if he did then what about the meteor swarm? My head hurts.

[Wadoka]

Blackwing isn't "summoned"; as explained in an earlier strip, he only appears when Vaarsuvius remembers him. It's a running joke parodying the way people actually play the game, "forgetting" about their familiars unless they're actually needed.

The thing about this "effect" is, it also extends to NPCs who join the party, and to PCs whose players miss a gaming session.

The NPCs, and the PCs whose guiding intelligences are sleeping off benders or nursing sick kids, also tend to be forgotten unless the DM takes special effort to keep them on stage.

Nice way to make it humorous.

[Ronan]

One Word:

LMAO

[eras10]

I'm not saying O and V surviving the Meteor Swarm isn't a stretch, but this is probably one of those times where Rich isn't playing by the book. In something other than D&D 3.5, it would be no sweat to have a major villian suffer a sudden, unlikely collapse of his ability to aim. Something to keep in mind, exactly how insanely exacting are the standards we're holding Rich to. There's a reason most D&D games wouldn't make for good comic strips - there's just not enough room for narrative.

If you just poke a few holes in the D&D system, this isn't so hard. Say O-Chul was running really fast, heard the sound of Xykon launching the meteor swarm and dropped V and kept running! Ta da, the swarm homes in the square where X *anticipates O-Chul's momentum* and V is spared. Then O-Chul shouts, "get up!!".

This isn't D&D exactly.. as far as I know, anyway (maybe it would work, I'm sure someone will opine) but it is what a D&D world would probably be like if implemented in some real-world-like-setting. And I mean that loosely. Even in, say, an FPS video game based on D&D, if O-Chul was sprinting while X launched Meteor Swarm, he could plausibly drop V and put enough distance so she doesn't eat the damage.

And as for O-Chul surviving:

#1. He IS more hurt in the last panels than the first ones. Look carefully. Thus,
#2. No gimmick rule. Just a really crappy Xykon die roll! Totally possible.

All things considered, as rules tweaking goes, having one spell targeted at two people miss one of them seems pretty small potatoes to me. If Xykon implausibly misses eight times in a row with no explanation, I'll gripe.

[DoctorJest]

I see. Well in my defence that wasn't mentioned in the post I critiqued.
So that settles it, though I'm sure some people could argue that Giant is ret-conning this and that he didn't actually foresee it. And it's improbable, but not impossible so I won't yell at them and I hope some other people keep their calm too.

Well he did point out that he specified that the splice replenishes SLOTS and not SPELLS, and going back that makes perfect sense.

Therefore, the current comic is logically and internally consistent with the previous ones, whether Rich had that planned out in advance or not, so even if he didn't plan it, it's still not reconning by any stretch. At worst, it's opportunistically taking advantage of a definite but significant choice of wording.

[aboyd]

For those who like the rules, the two should take about 84 hp each, save for half, if not much more, and neither should have over 30 hp, much less 42.

Um, I don't think so. The strip shows V with three potion vials at one point. If V put all 3 into O'Chul, and if all 3 were Cure Serious Wounds, that's 54 points of healing on average. If they rolled well, maybe that's 65-80 points of healing.

If the empty flask in V's hand (the one that was clearly used off-panel) was in fact something like Healing Salve from the Magic Item Compendium, then it's possible that single potion did 59 points of healing on average all on its own. If rolled well, that one potion may have done up to 96 points of healing. It would have taken 3 rounds to apply such a potion fully, but since V was invisible and undetected at that point, it would appear to be possible.

For me personally, I'm assuming that both of them had a few dozen HP. After the meteor strike, I'd assume both are hovering around zero, but still in the game. I'm OK with the events so far.

[noncaloric]

We had the scene with the fiends a couple of strips back, so it is possible that V dies, but X doesn't think it worthwhile to soulbind V, and then Qarr planeshifts in and carries some small portion of V's remains back to the Order to carry on the IFCC's plans, whatever they might be.

Because I sure don't see any other way on the table of anyone teleporting out of Azure City, whatever happens to X and his bauble.

[Lamech]

Fun fact: Familiars don't gain HD. For those who don't get this: energy drain will kill blackwing in one shot. Actually there is some line about effects that use hit dice use the master's HD... not sure how that interacts with negative energy levels.

Also I doubt magic missle would stop blackwing. Assuming Xykon has maximize spell or a rod, V has sucked two meteor swarms so even if she saved thats a average of 112 damage so... blackwing has 50ish hp. Two+ maximized missles are needed giving blackwing two-three rounds to reach the rift; it only gets worse if maximization is not possible.

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This can go both ways if Blackwing charges the rift: Xykon could panic and do something dumb, or he could fumble his attack role; or he could toss forcecage and stop the bird.

[Ktulu]

"Originally Posted by Wanderer
You ALWAYS have Feather Fall. Even if you're adventuring in the Great Flat City in the Flatland Plains on continent Flat."

Australia?

[Toothygrin]

My prediction:

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V's round:
Forcecage (on Xykon)
Quickened Haste (on Blackwing)

[Often Normal]

My prediction:

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V's round:
Forcecage (on Xykon)
Quickened Haste (on Blackwing)

Does V have quicken? I'm thinking V's action would be the second spell without any meta magics on it (if that is the direction things go).

[RMS Oceanic]

Does V have quicken? I'm thinking V's action would be the second spell without any meta magics on it (if that is the direction things go).

1. (S)he couldn't cast a second spell in a round without the Quicken Spell feat.
2. (S)he does have it; (s)he used it against the Pit Fiend.

[Lukraak]

I'm not saying O and V surviving the Meteor Swarm isn't a stretch, but this is probably one of those times where Rich isn't playing by the book. In something other than D&D 3.5, it would be no sweat to have a major villian suffer a sudden, unlikely collapse of his ability to aim. Something to keep in mind, exactly how insanely exacting are the standards we're holding Rich to. There's a reason most D&D games wouldn't make for good comic strips - there's just not enough room for narrative.

As a long time DM/GM

"oh gods, what did they do NOW? They we'rent supposed to be there and attack that for ages"
[Hides dice]
It Misses!. Ooops, it hit and did *just enough damage to scare the crap out of you, but not enough to kill you*
Miss again!

Fudging dice to not totally wipe the party is a perfectly acceptable part of D&D, after all as DM/storyteller you're not out to kill them

If said players then choose to use this time to pull a heroic sacrifice that's their choice.

Even though this is a story driven comic and not a game, I personally applaud O'chul for his actions

[David Argall]

I'm not saying O and V surviving the Meteor Swarm isn't a stretch, but this is probably one of those times where Rich isn't playing by the book. In something other than D&D 3.5, it would be no sweat to have a major villian suffer a sudden, unlikely collapse of his ability to aim.

In other words you are saying this is a sacrifice of "realism" for the same of cheap thrills.

There's a reason most D&D games wouldn't make for good comic strips - there's just not enough room for narrative.

Quite incorrect. Most D&D games don't want to be good narrative. But if one wants to put a plot in [which means taking time off from killing monsters and is thus routinely rejected out of hand], it is no problem at all.

If you just poke a few holes in the D&D system, this isn't so hard.

If we cheat outrageously, we can get away with this.

Say O-Chul was running really fast, heard the sound of Xykon launching the meteor swarm and dropped V and kept running! Ta da, the swarm homes in the square where X *anticipates O-Chul's momentum* and V is spared. Then O-Chul shouts, "get up!!".

Meteor Swarm has a Big area of effect. 40' radius. 80' from side to side, and the standard movement is 30. Quite simply O-Chul can't get out of the range of V unless one of those potions was haste, which means he dies from damage.

This isn't D&D exactly..

No, it's make up such rules as you feel like to get the result you want.

#1. He IS more hurt in the last panels than the first ones. Look carefully.

As far as I can see, O-Chul in panel 1 is the same as in panel 6. And V is also not changed in damage.

#2. No gimmick rule. Just a really crappy Xykon die roll! Totally possible.

We are talking about 24d6, and 4 rolls to hit, and 4 saves. When you talk about that much rolling, the really bad rolls are so rare as to be ignored.

All things considered, as rules tweaking goes, having one spell targeted at two people miss one of them seems pretty small potatoes to me. If Xykon implausibly misses eight times in a row with no explanation, I'll gripe.

But that is what Xykon is effectively doing. Meteor Swarm involves 4 touch attacks, and Xykon would hit O-Chul or V with a 2. So we are talking .05 x .05 x .05 x .05 chance of O-Chul not taking 8d6, no save + at least 18d6=63/31 =59-91+, with a heavy majority chance of 32d6, no save = 112 damage.

The strip shows V with three potion vials at one point. If V put all 3 into O'Chul, and if all 3 were Cure Serious Wounds, that's 54 points of healing on average. If they rolled well, maybe that's 65-80 points of healing.

I'm too lazy to do the math, but the chance of getting 65-80 points of curing is on the order of 5%. You are rolling 9 dice and when you start rolling handfuls of dice, you end up really close to average a really large percentage of the time.
And of course, this is assuming they are all Cure Serious.


But that is not enough to stay above zero.