Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves

[Wraith]

Kind of disappointed that there's no James Cameron category, where inserting a love story (Kor'sarro/Shrike, Tor Garadon/Sven Bloodhowl) into any narrative automatically makes it better. Because Humanity.

Choose 'Mystery' as your theme. Have Kor'sarro make the old "Why can't I quit you!?" quote. Then they kiss forcibly and the question in never answered. MYSTERY!

[Cheesegear]

Choose 'Mystery' as your theme. Have Kor'sarro make the old "Why can't I quit you!?" quote. Then they kiss forcibly and the question in never answered. MYSTERY!

I lol'd pretty hard.

[hamishspence]

As such, I'd appreciate a crash-course in the Sisters of Battle fluff.

TV Tropes's 40K: Characters entry (Adepta Sororitas) and Lexicanum's entry, are good starting points for a quick summary of their histories.

[Drasius]

While you're not wrong, we've seen multiple times in this thread how horribly incorrect you can be when you rely on skimming a wiki for faction fluff.

[Cheesegear]

TV Tropes's 40K: Characters entry (Adepta Sororitas) and Lexicanum's entry, are good starting points for a quick summary of their histories.

Back in my day, we used the catch cry of "Oh yeah, well my one is different!" and then proceeded to write whatever we want, which totally wasn't fanfiction.
Who uses 'sources' and 'established fluff'...You're crazy, man.

[Wraith]

As such, I'd appreciate a crash-course in the Sisters of Battle fluff.

Now that I'm not posting from my 'phone; Sisters of Battle 101

Spoiler

Show

In M36, a mad tyrant named Goge Vandire managed to become the Head of the Adminstratum and the Ecclesiarchy at the same time via simultaneously legitimate and unscrupulous circumstances, making himself the de facto leader of the entire Imperium apart from the Space Marines.

He portrayed himself as the Emperor's Will made manifest, and when he encountered a cult of all-female Emperor-worshippers he used his advanced technology to cheat their 'test' and 'prove' himself to be divinely protected. Suitably awed by Vandire's display, these cultists renounced their previous name of the Daughters of the Emperor and swore to become Vandire's bodyguards, retainers, courtesans and servants under the name of the Brides of the Emperor.
Fanatically loyal to the Emperor, and by extension to Vandire, the Brides were the last line of Vandire's defences when the Reign of Blood was coming to an end; Sebastion Thor had led the Confederacy of Light to the doorstep of the Imperial Palace, and a number of Astartes Chapters had joined him in a siege against Vandire.
Realising what was going on, the Adeptus Custodes finally roused themselves and went after Vandire. Fortunately for him they were intercepted by the Brides who were prepared to fight the Custodes within the Palace to prevent them from getting to their Master.
Instead of fighting, the Custodes Captain took the leader of the Brides - Alicia Dominica - to the Golden Throne and into the presence of the true Emperor. Immediately the Brides realised their error, renounced their title of Brides and returned to Duaghters, before Dominica personally confronted and executed Vandire as a traitor to the Imperium.

Installed as the new Ecclesiarch, Sebastian Thor declared that never again should the Ecclesiarchy be allowed to retain "men under arms"; at the same time, he recognised the value in the Ecclesiarchy having a militant force at their disposal, and with the Daughters of the Emperor still being highly trained, loyal to the Emperor, otherwise at a loose end and specifically female he allowed them to remain instead of being disbanded.

These were now the Sisters of Battle proper; the Ecclesiarchy's private military force comprised of utterly devoted soldiers. The interpretation of 'devotion' varies slightly, which is why different Orders with their own particular practices and rituals exist, but otherwise they are the same in that their fanaticism outstrips even that of many Astartes. They are Space Nuns - they live in convents, believe in the indisputable supremacy of the Emperor and Mankind, and they have the Power Armour, Boltguns and Imperial mandate to crusade against anyone they think deserves it. They also have a tendency to enacting extreme physical and mental tortures on themselves and others as 'penance' for the guilt caused by their perceived (justifiable or otherwise) sins against the Emperor; self-flagellation is not uncommon.

Which is NOT to say that they are all foaming-at-the-mouth maniacs all the time. Some absolutely are, but while fervent and pious they can also be depicted as quite down-to-earth, engaging in normal conversation with non-Sisters (unlike Astartes whose social skills are considerably more deficient) and even - when the vows of their Order allow it - engaging in sexual relationships with men and other women.

In other words, they are normal human soldiers who happen to all be female, and to take their religion VERY seriously. It's only unfortunate because that religion happens to be the Imperial Cult.

[comicshorse]

I've read the first two Dark Angel novels in the Horus Heresy series and really didn't like them so don't plan on reading any others. One question I'd liked answered though ; does Luther actually fall to chaos or is his rebellion always about The Lion leaving him on Caliban with no chance to earn honor and glory for himself ? (and protecting Caliban to be fair to him)

[Cheesegear]

I've read the first two Dark Angel novels in the Horus Heresy series and really didn't like them so don't plan on reading any others.

Congrats. You picked arguably the worst two books in the entire ~50 book run to read. Perfect.

does Luther actually fall to chaos or is his rebellion always about The Lion leaving him on Caliban with no chance to earn honor and glory for himself...

Or was it about Lion doing something awful, and then killing/silencing everyone who was against him?

...Basically no-one knows who the Traitors were at Caliban, and we'll find out eventually. That is, we're ~50 books in and we still don't know what the trigger event was.

[comicshorse]

Congrats. You picked arguably the worst two books in the entire ~50 book run to read. Perfect.

I've read the rest as well. Well up to 37 . And if they aren't written by Nick Kyme

Also not the worst, quite. They're definitely 'Vulkan Lives' and 'Damnation of Pythos'

Or was it about Lion doing something awful, and then killing/silencing everyone who was against him?

Now I'd like that. That might even make me buy a Dark Angel novel again

Thanks

[Artanis]

TV Tropes's 40K: Characters entry (Adepta Sororitas) and Lexicanum's entry, are good starting points for a quick summary of their histories.

While you're not wrong, we've seen multiple times in this thread how horribly incorrect you can be when you rely on skimming a wiki for faction fluff.

In general, I find the Lexicanum to be quite good, as long as one keeps in mind that it is neither perfect nor definitive. That's why, when I reference it in such discussions, I try to include a disclaimer along the lines of "FWIW, the Lexicanum entry says (insert stuff here)"

Now that I'm not posting from my 'phone; Sisters of Battle 101

Spoiler

Show

In M36, a mad tyrant named Goge Vandire managed to become the Head of the Adminstratum and the Ecclesiarchy at the same time via simultaneously legitimate and unscrupulous circumstances, making himself the de facto leader of the entire Imperium apart from the Space Marines.

He portrayed himself as the Emperor's Will made manifest, and when he encountered a cult of all-female Emperor-worshippers he used his advanced technology to cheat their 'test' and 'prove' himself to be divinely protected. Suitably awed by Vandire's display, these cultists renounced their previous name of the Daughters of the Emperor and swore to become Vandire's bodyguards, retainers, courtesans and servants under the name of the Brides of the Emperor.
Fanatically loyal to the Emperor, and by extension to Vandire, the Brides were the last line of Vandire's defences when the Reign of Blood was coming to an end; Sebastion Thor had led the Confederacy of Light to the doorstep of the Imperial Palace, and a number of Astartes Chapters had joined him in a siege against Vandire.
Realising what was going on, the Adeptus Custodes finally roused themselves and went after Vandire. Fortunately for him they were intercepted by the Brides who were prepared to fight the Custodes within the Palace to prevent them from getting to their Master.
Instead of fighting, the Custodes Captain took the leader of the Brides - Alicia Dominica - to the Golden Throne and into the presence of the true Emperor. Immediately the Brides realised their error, renounced their title of Brides and returned to Duaghters, before Dominica personally confronted and executed Vandire as a traitor to the Imperium.

Installed as the new Ecclesiarch, Sebastian Thor declared that never again should the Ecclesiarchy be allowed to retain "men under arms"; at the same time, he recognised the value in the Ecclesiarchy having a militant force at their disposal, and with the Daughters of the Emperor still being highly trained, loyal to the Emperor, otherwise at a loose end and specifically female he allowed them to remain instead of being disbanded.

These were now the Sisters of Battle proper; the Ecclesiarchy's private military force comprised of utterly devoted soldiers. The interpretation of 'devotion' varies slightly, which is why different Orders with their own particular practices and rituals exist, but otherwise they are the same in that their fanaticism outstrips even that of many Astartes. They are Space Nuns - they live in convents, believe in the indisputable supremacy of the Emperor and Mankind, and they have the Power Armour, Boltguns and Imperial mandate to crusade against anyone they think deserves it. They also have a tendency to enacting extreme physical and mental tortures on themselves and others as 'penance' for the guilt caused by their perceived (justifiable or otherwise) sins against the Emperor; self-flagellation is not uncommon.

Which is NOT to say that they are all foaming-at-the-mouth maniacs all the time. Some absolutely are, but while fervent and pious they can also be depicted as quite down-to-earth, engaging in normal conversation with non-Sisters (unlike Astartes whose social skills are considerably more deficient) and even - when the vows of their Order allow it - engaging in sexual relationships with men and other women.

In other words, they are normal human soldiers who happen to all be female, and to take their religion VERY seriously. It's only unfortunate because that religion happens to be the Imperial Cult.

That's certainly a better synopsis than I could've come up with. Well said




Edit: Addendum

A good example of what I'm talking about at the start of this post is the Lexicanum entry about Tau FTL. That section appears to be more or less copy-pasted from the relevant part of Battlefleet Gothic. HOWEVER, Tau fluff has changed in the years since Battlefleet Gothic was around, so some (or for that matter, possibly all) of that information may now be wrong.

[Drasius]

Congrats. You picked arguably the worst two books in the entire ~50 book run to read. Perfect.
...
Or was it about Lion doing something awful, and then killing/silencing everyone who was against him?

...Basically no-one knows who the Traitors were at Caliban, and we'll find out eventually. That is, we're ~50 books in and we still don't know what the trigger event was.

I've read the rest as well. Well up to 37 . And if they aren't written by Nick Kyme

Also not the worst, quite. They're definitely 'Vulkan Lives' and 'Damnation of Pythos'

Now I'd like that. That might even make me buy a Dark Angel novel again

Thanks

I was nodding my head agreeing with Cheese until you mentioned Pythos. Vulkan wasn't great, but I could at least see what he was going for, but Pythos? Not just the worst book in HH, not even the worst book in 40k, but possibly the worst book of all time. OF ALL TIME!

If you like you HH DA and haven't read/heard Master of the First, grab it, it's pretty good and has some nice insight into the DA's shenanigans. The other half being The Long Night certainly doesn't do it any harm as they're both excellent stories, fighting it out for runner-up (first is reserved for Templar) in best audiodrama with stiff competition from Eagles Talon / Iron Corpses and Trials of Azreal.

[Wraith]

One question I'd liked answered though ; does Luther actually fall to chaos or is his rebellion always about The Lion leaving him on Caliban with no chance to earn honor and glory for himself ? (and protecting Caliban to be fair to him)

The current lore is still that Luther falls to Chaos and gets imbued with enough powers and gifts that he comes within a hairs' breadth of killing the Lion, but his last tiny shred of humanity reasserts itself at the last second, snaps his sanity and so Lion wins by TKO.

It will absolutely be expended upon in a couple of years' time when the Siege of Terra is completed and Black Library gets around to writing about the Scouring, wherein the Lion returns to Caliban and we find out whether or not the original story is true, or that one of several other possibilities occur.
I personally think that they'll stick with the story of Luthor being a Chaos Champion; canonically he and El'Johnson fight each other to the death, and that's a) going to be a really crappy story if a normal Astartes almost kill a Primarch 1-on-1 and b) BL never passes up the opportunity to portray a famous duel as anything other than a genuine fight.

I was nodding my head agreeing with Cheese until you mentioned Pythos. Vulkan wasn't great, but I could at least see what he was going for, but Pythos? Not just the worst book in HH, not even the worst book in 40k, but possibly the worst book of all time. OF ALL TIME!

I would not be so abrupt as to just disagree with you, but I think that Pythos faces some VERY stiff competition from Space Marine by Ian Watson (which is not badly written from a technical point of view but it utterly crack-tastic in terms of lore) and from 15 Hours by Mitchell Scanlon which commits the cardinal sin of just being really boring. Scanlon also wrote Descent of Angels incidentally, and nothing else since, so I'm going to assume that BL saw a pattern emerging and decided to nip that particular rose in the bud....

If you like you HH DA and haven't read/heard Master of the First, grab it, it's pretty good and has some nice insight into the DA's shenanigans. The other half being The Long Night certainly doesn't do it any harm as they're both excellent stories, fighting it out for runner-up (first is reserved for Templar) in best audiodrama with stiff competition from Eagles Talon/Iron Corpses and Trials of Azreal.

Trials of Azrael was indeed an excellent story, possibly because it's probably the first I'm read/heard where the Dark Angels are unequivocally the heroes for once

The BEST audiodrama, however, is clearly Master of the Hunt. It's just obviously so, so great.

....On reflection, I've got a huge back catalogue of audiodramas that I've gone through. I might do some super-fast one-paragraph-reviews of them like I once did a couple of years ago, if that's what people are curious about.

[Forum Explorer]

The current lore is still that Luther falls to Chaos and gets imbued with enough powers and gifts that he comes within a hairs' breadth of killing the Lion, but his last tiny shred of humanity reasserts itself at the last second, snaps his sanity and so Lion wins by TKO.

It will absolutely be expended upon in a couple of years' time when the Siege of Terra is completed and Black Library gets around to writing about the Scouring, wherein the Lion returns to Caliban and we find out whether or not the original story is true, or that one of several other possibilities occur.
I personally think that they'll stick with the story of Luthor being a Chaos Champion; canonically he and El'Johnson fight each other to the death, and that's a) going to be a really crappy story if a normal Astartes almost kill a Primarch 1-on-1 and b) BL never passes up the opportunity to portray a famous duel as anything other than a genuine fight.

From the newest Dark Angel Codex, Luther actually loses initially with the Lion being unable to finish Luther off due to friendship. That lets Luther get in a cheap psychic blow that effectively wins the fight, but then he realizes what a scumbag he's being and repents/goes mad. Point is, he doesn't finish off the Lion either.

Also Luther isn't even an Astartes either. He was too old for the full implants, but he's some weird proto-space marine instead. Though joining Chaos does apparently make him a psyker.

[hamishspence]

Also Luther isn't even an Astartes either. He was too old for the full implants, but he's some weird proto-space marine instead.

He's not the only one - Kor Phaeron (Lorgar's discoverer) is too. The general theme seems to be that Primarchs, when discovered by the Emperor, and after joining their Legions, often promote their mentors/followers as far as they can go. Sometimes they're not prepared to risk their mentors'/followers' lives (successfully surviving the implantation process as an over-aged Marine candidate is possible but very rare).

Because chance of survival was too low, I'm guessing, Luthor and Kor Phaeron didn't undergo the full process.

Leman Russ's Varagyr followers, and Magnus the Red's mentor Amon, did undergo the process and Amon (and a few Varagyr) lived through it to become full Marines.

[LansXero]

From the newest Dark Angel Codex, Luther actually loses initially with the Lion being unable to finish Luther off due to friendship. That lets Luther get in a cheap psychic blow that effectively wins the fight, but then he realizes what a scumbag he's being and repents/goes mad. Point is, he doesn't finish off the Lion either.

Also Luther isn't even an Astartes either. He was too old for the full implants, but he's some weird proto-space marine instead. Though joining Chaos does apparently make him a psyker.

He is already a sorcerer in the novels though, isnt he?

[Cheesegear]

The BEST audiodrama, however, is clearly Master of the Hunt. It's just obviously so, so great.

'Hunt was rad. But I don't think that there's much that can beat Waiting Death, or the last five minutes of Butcher's Nails. But 'Hunt is definitely up there.

[Forum Explorer]

He is already a sorcerer in the novels though, isnt he?

He wasn't in Fallen Angels. IIRC.

[LansXero]

He wasn't in Fallen Angels. IIRC.

Spoiler: Nothing un-loyal happening here, move along

Show

Cant remember the book's name, but Luther was using chaos stuff from when they destroyed the Knights of Lupus. It shows Caliban being basically split in 3 sides: Cypher,
Luther and those who remain true to the Lion

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: Nothing un-loyal happening here, move along

Show

Cant remember the book's name, but Luther was using chaos stuff from when they destroyed the Knights of Lupus. It shows Caliban being basically split in 3 sides: Cypher,
Luther and those who remain true to the Lion

I haven't read that book, but I do know that would come after Fallen Angels, which ended with Luther

Spoiler: Fallen Angels

Show

basically deciding to go against the Lion and deciding to harness the power of the giant demon contained in Caliban.
So he was already well on his way to falling to Chaos at that point.

[Wraith]

From the newest Dark Angel Codex, Luther actually loses initially with the Lion being unable to finish Luther off due to friendship. That lets Luther get in a cheap psychic blow that effectively wins the fight, but then he realizes what a scumbag he's being and repents/goes mad. Point is, he doesn't finish off the Lion either.

I believe that was still the story in 2nd Ed's Codex: Angels of Death. The people who say that Luther killed the Lion are the in-universe ones who don't know about the Watchers in the Dark spiriting him away to the heart of Caliban, where he slumbered. Which means... everyone apart from the Emperor.
He specifically doesn't repent, though - he "doesn't need to" because he's been waiting 10,000 years for the Lion to return and forgive him.

Also Luther isn't even an Astartes either. He was too old for the full implants, but he's some weird proto-space marine instead. Though joining Chaos does apparently make him a psyker.

He's close enough that he can wear Astartes Power Armour; it's specifically mentioned in the Knights-Errant story in which he meets with Cerberus. Like hamishspence said, there were surgeries and gene therapies that could turn humans into an close approximation of Astartes, though it was dangerous and often unsuccessful. At least, the writers say it was often unsuccessful; of the 4 Primarchs who had it done to their closest ally and mentor it has a 100% success rate.

Similarly as LansXero said, he dabbled in some stuff before he met the Lion and it certainly grew into something very powerful in his isolation from the Legion.

[comicshorse]

Like hamishspence said, there were surgeries and gene therapies that could turn humans into an close approximation of Astartes, though it was dangerous and often unsuccessful. At least, the writers say it was often unsuccessful; of the 4 Primarchs who had it done to their closest ally and mentor it has a 100% success rate.

I wonder is that what the Space Wolves do to the Remembrancer in 'Prospero Burns' ? If so it does seem a very successful procedure

[Drasius]

I would not be so abrupt as to just disagree with you, but I think that Pythos faces some VERY stiff competition from Space Marine by Ian Watson (which is not badly written from a technical point of view but it utterly crack-tastic in terms of lore) and from 15 Hours by Mitchell Scanlon which commits the cardinal sin of just being really boring. Scanlon also wrote Descent of Angels incidentally, and nothing else since, so I'm going to assume that BL saw a pattern emerging and decided to nip that particular rose in the bud....
...
The BEST audiodrama, however, is clearly Master of the Hunt. It's just obviously so, so great.

Can't say that I've read Watsons Space Marine, but if it can even remotely be compared to the utter well of badness that is Pythos, I don't want to. Haven't read 15 Hours either, but I have read Descent of Angels and was fairly unimpressed.

Hunt was alright, but then end ruined it for me.

The general theme seems to be that Primarchs, when discovered by the Emperor, and after joining their Legions, often promote their mentors/followers as far as they can go.

I've always thought this was so they they could have someone who was ready to tell them when they were being dumb and continue to give them council rather than being favouritism though.

'Hunt was rad. But I don't think that there's much that can beat Waiting Death, or the last five minutes of Butcher's Nails. But 'Hunt is definitely up there.

Can't say I've ever heard of Waiting Death, will have to give it a listen if I ever find it. Kharn makes anything a pleasure to listen to.

He's close enough that he can wear Astartes Power Armour; it's specifically mentioned in the Knights-Errant story in which he meets with Cerberus. Like hamishspence said, there were surgeries and gene therapies that could turn humans into an close approximation of Astartes, though it was dangerous and often unsuccessful. At least, the writers say it was often unsuccessful; of the 4 Primarchs who had it done to their closest ally and mentor it has a 100% success rate.

Remember that Luthor was meant to be the once in a hudred generations sort of hero, think Conan as a knight sort of levels, only to get shown up by having a primarch rock up and "overshadow" him (if you call struggling to defeat a spawn as overshadowing, but then, that's just bad writing).

As for the seemingly improbable success rate for the primarchs followers, well, it stands to reason that you don't approve the proceedure unless it has a reasonable chance since losing one of their most valued advisors for nothing isn't a good idea, but it's also not out of the question to think that people who can even remotely keep up with a Primarch are probably prime candidates for said surgeries (exept for Amon who gets a pass because lol biomancy).

[Forum Explorer]

I believe that was still the story in 2nd Ed's Codex: Angels of Death. The people who say that Luther killed the Lion are the in-universe ones who don't know about the Watchers in the Dark spiriting him away to the heart of Caliban, where he slumbered. Which means... everyone apart from the Emperor.
He specifically doesn't repent, though - he "doesn't need to" because he's been waiting 10,000 years for the Lion to return and forgive him.



He's close enough that he can wear Astartes Power Armour; it's specifically mentioned in the Knights-Errant story in which he meets with Cerberus. Like hamishspence said, there were surgeries and gene therapies that could turn humans into an close approximation of Astartes, though it was dangerous and often unsuccessful. At least, the writers say it was often unsuccessful; of the 4 Primarchs who had it done to their closest ally and mentor it has a 100% success rate.

Similarly as LansXero said, he dabbled in some stuff before he met the Lion and it certainly grew into something very powerful in his isolation from the Legion.

If he doesn't need to repent, then why would the Lion need to forgive him? I took that to mean that he had already repented to the Lion, maybe over the Lion's dying body, but the Lion nonetheless.


Pretty much a weird proto-space marine then.

Do you remember the book's name?

[snowblizz]

and from 15 Hours by Mitchell Scanlon which commits the cardinal sin of just being really boring.

Huh. I kinda liked 15 hours.
At least that is what my memory says.

[Wraith]

I've always thought this was so they they could have someone who was ready to tell them when they were being dumb and continue to give them council rather than being favouritism though.

Having proto-Astartes as his confidant actually seems to make the Lion in the minority. While he, Russ, Lorgar and Magnus chose to 'elevate' their father/friend/mentor figure to proto-Astartes, Guilliman had his mother (who survived only on juvenant treatments), Horus had the Mourneval (actual Astartes who were his friends), Alpharius and Omegron had each other, Ferrus Mannus had Fulgrim, and Fulgrim and Mortarion seemed to prefer 'professional' rather than personal advice from their command squads and First Captains than any particular 'friendship'.

The only Primarchs who didn't have a mentor/confidant for certain were Dorn - who left his human family to their natural lifespans and went to Terra alone - and Angron, who had Khàrne as his handler more than anything.

Remember that Luthor was meant to be the once in a hundred generations sort of hero, think Conan as a knight sort of levels, only to get shown up by having a primarch rock up and "overshadow" him (if you call struggling to defeat a spawn as overshadowing, but then, that's just bad writing).

I get what you're saying, but statistics don't work that way. Conan, warrior without peer, might not have survived the process; it's more a case of people become heroes BECAUSE they survived, no the other way around.

As for the seemingly improbable success rate for the primarchs followers, well, it stands to reason that you don't approve the procedure unless it has a reasonable chance since losing one of their most valued advisors for nothing isn't a good idea

It's more a case of the sheer coincidence involved. The process to become proto-Astartes is long, dangerous and likely to fail, and yet it just so happens that 4 out of 4 Primarchs' closest advisors happen to be compatible. I don't think there is yet a tragic story of.... let's say, the Khan.... having a brother or best friend who he tried to have made into a proto-Astartes, but the process failed and he died.

We're TOLD that people usually die under the process, but we've yet to see it happen to anyone with a name. Perhaps it might be more accurate to say that the process is actually quite reliable, BUT is very expensive and painful so they only attempt it on the very select few who *need* it. This makes sense; if the Imperium is willing to have a 90% attrition rate on making ordinary Astartes out of children, I'm pretty sure that they would be happy to have a similar rate to use on adults if it were sensibly available to do so.

If he doesn't need to repent, then why would the Lion need to forgive him? I took that to mean that he had already repented to the Lion, maybe over the Lion's dying body, but the Lion nonetheless.

Bare in mind that Luther was corrupted by the Chaos Gods and then tried to purge them through sheer force of will, that he was physically and mentally maimed during the fight with Lion, has been tortured by the Dark Angels on and off for 10,000 years, and his sanity cracked like a walnut when he realised what he had done to his 'brother' and Caliban....

...but that's what he says. He doesn't need to repent because the Lion will forgive him. One might interpret that as Luther not being 'sorry' but knowing that Lion is dumb enough to let him off the hook; it might also mean that he thinks that the Lion understands that Luther is merely human and therefore fallible, and so won't hold a little thing like betrayal and attempted murder against him.

As with most things Lion El'Johnson-y, we might know more in a couple of years when The Fall of Caliban (or whatever it's called) gets published.

Do you remember the book's name?

Had to Google it: the audiodrama Grey Angel by John French.

Huh. I kinda liked 15 hours.
At least that is what my memory says.

Fair enough - I'm not trying to shame anyone for having different tastes to me

All I remember of it, though, was an endless spiral of depressing death, failure and the worst kind of World War I-era oblivious leadership.
Lots of tropes stacked on top of each other to tell a very grimdark story - if that's your thing then more power to you, but I studied WWI in higher education and found it depressing, and yet without the balls to actually depict a truly horrible battlefield comparable to Flanders or the Somme. At the same time both excessively grimdark and yet also disappointingly tame.

[lord_khaine]

He's close enough that he can wear Astartes Power Armour; it's specifically mentioned in the Knights-Errant story in which he meets with Cerberus. Like hamishspence said, there were surgeries and gene therapies that could turn humans into an close approximation of Astartes, though it was dangerous and often unsuccessful. At least, the writers say it was often unsuccessful; of the 4 Primarchs who had it done to their closest ally and mentor it has a 100% success rate.

I suspect the success rate rises exponentially with the budget. When your trying to do it at the same price as a Space Marine its risky. When done because a Primach asks for it its likely risky as a visit to the dentist.

[Adrastos42]

Can't say that I've read Watsons Space Marine, but if it can even remotely be compared to the utter well of badness that is Pythos, I don't want to.
(Snip)

To be fair to Space Marine, it did come out in 1993 so any lore problems it has are quite understandable and probably shouldn't reflect too much on its actual quality. Not that I've got around to reading it for myself yet, so I can't say if it actually is good once you get past the lore craziness. Saying it's bad because of the lore might be like saying that Star Wars books written before the prequels came out are bad because they get every detail of the clone wars wrong.

[Drasius]

Having proto-Astartes as his confidant actually seems to make the Lion in the minority. While he, Russ, Lorgar and Magnus chose to 'elevate' their father/friend/mentor figure to proto-Astartes, Guilliman had his mother (who survived only on juvenant treatments), Horus had the Mourneval (actual Astartes who were his friends), Alpharius and Omegron had each other, Ferrus Mannus had Fulgrim, and Fulgrim and Mortarion seemed to prefer 'professional' rather than personal advice from their command squads and First Captains than any particular 'friendship'.

The only Primarchs who didn't have a mentor/confidant for certain were Dorn - who left his human family to their natural lifespans and went to Terra alone - and Angron, who had Khàrne as his handler more than anything.

Didn't Khan have a mentor that didn't get made into an Astartes but got killed off? As with all other things relating the the Scars, they're so boring I can't recall.

I get what you're saying, but statistics don't work that way. Conan, warrior without peer, might not have survived the process; it's more a case of people become heroes BECAUSE they survived, no the other way around.

... I'm not sure you an I are talking about the same thing here. What you quoted has nothing to do with statistics, I'm saying that Luthor was a nigh superhuman warrior who would have been the basis for legend on his world for millenia to come and yet he got to be a footnote in the Lions story instead. IIRC, he gets some treatments (along with a bunch of the other knights who were too old to become "proper" legionaries, but isn't suitable to undergo the actual astartes transformation (which is the dangeous bit). The treatments aren't that dangerous, but the transformation is.

I could go back and read the DA book that goes over this, but then I'd be reading a HH DA book and, really, why would you do that to yourself?

It's more a case of the sheer coincidence involved. The process to become proto-Astartes is long, dangerous and likely to fail, and yet it just so happens that 4 out of 4 Primarchs' closest advisors happen to be compatible. I don't think there is yet a tragic story of.... let's say, the Khan.... having a brother or best friend who he tried to have made into a proto-Astartes, but the process failed and he died.

We're TOLD that people usually die under the process, but we've yet to see it happen to anyone with a name. Perhaps it might be more accurate to say that the process is actually quite reliable, BUT is very expensive and painful so they only attempt it on the very select few who *need* it. This makes sense; if the Imperium is willing to have a 90% attrition rate on making ordinary Astartes out of children, I'm pretty sure that they would be happy to have a similar rate to use on adults if it were sensibly available to do so.

We both know it's plot convinience mixed with the basics of the story being written decades prior to 40k becoming srs bisnis or the heresy becoming a thing that GW was willing to expand on. Plus it would make a fairly poor story to have your character do all this awesome stuff and then keel over in surgery. Also, having it be reliable but expensive doesn't really fit the tone of 30/40k where it's all grimdark all the time, though maybe since it's pre-heresy when it wasn't all ruined forever (in universe) it might be a thing. Who knows?

[snowblizz]

Fair enough - I'm not trying to shame anyone for having different tastes to me

All I remember of it, though, was an endless spiral of depressing death, failure and the worst kind of World War I-era oblivious leadership.
Lots of tropes stacked on top of each other to tell a very grimdark story - if that's your thing then more power to you, but I studied WWI in higher education and found it depressing, and yet without the balls to actually depict a truly horrible battlefield comparable to Flanders or the Somme. At the same time both excessively grimdark and yet also disappointingly tame.

Mostly it's the ending I remeber as being absolutely perfect and sorta in tone with ZOMgGRIMDArk!!11! 40k.

Spoiler

Show

15 hours being the lifespan of a guardsman and our protagonist making it like 15 and 10 minutes or whatever it was, so perfectly 40k for me. And he was so damned happy to have survived those 15 hours too. Oh wait is that gut wound? Dang.

[The Glyphstone]

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