Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Mushroom Ninja]

Outgrappling the Grappler with a wizard. Great fun!

[tyckspoon]

Centipedes do indeed have excellent Grapple scores from Huge size on (Summon Monsters 3, 6, and 8 get you Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal respectively.) This is good, because they're otherwise pretty useless. Vermin is a weak creature type, which leaves centipedes with poor basic attacks and low survivability. Even their poison DCs are fairly lame for the levels where you'll be summoning them. But they do have by far the highest grapple check modifiers in the entire Summon Monster list; the centipedes generally have a margin of +5 to +10 or so on the nearest competitor.

Unfortunately you have to be willing to cast [Evil] spells to use them, as the centipedes are Fiendish by default. On the Good side, you're left with mostly Celestial animals. These are reasonably good grapplers, and generally more powerful than the centipedes, but they do not score high enough to reliably outdo a dedicated grappling build. Nor do they scale as well: The best grapple check for Good creatures at SM3 is the celestial bison, at +13. The best for Evil is the Huge Centipede with +15. Stepping up a few levels, to SM6, we now have Fiendish creatures represented by the Gargantuan Centipede, with a +27 check. That's a +12 gain, for those keeping score. On the good side, the best grapple check is the Polar Bear: +18. Only a +5 gain in three spell levels.

The higher levels of Summon Monster start to include a neutral option, typically Elementals. Huge/Greater/Elder Earth Elementals make reasonable grapplers, thanks to size and high Strength. But those are level 7-9 spells- at this point there are usually better options than summoning, and they still don't compare to the Colossal Centipede (SM8) with its massive +42 grapple check. On the plus side for them, they don't have to worry about room capacity problems that may restrict using the largest centipede; the Earth Glide ability allows the elementals to occupy the floor or walls if there is insufficient space to summon them aboveground.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Here's a quick question about Centipedes since I don't have my MM handy-

What would the differences between a Celestial Centipede and an Infernal Centipede of the same size/hd be? Would they have the same CR? Different grapple scores?

[Signmaker]

Here's a quick question about Centipedes since I don't have my MM handy-

What would the differences between a Celestial Centipede and an Infernal Centipede of the same size/hd be? Would they have the same CR? Different grapple scores?

If I'm not mistaken (and I may very well be), a quick comparison of the Celestial and Infernal templates would tell you the differences. If it's the same base creature, then the templates are what make the difference.

[Collin152]

Fiendish.
The template is fiendish.
Not infernal.

[tyckspoon]

Here's a quick question about Centipedes since I don't have my MM handy-

What would the differences between a Celestial Centipede and an Infernal Centipede of the same size/hd be? Would they have the same CR? Different grapple scores?

Very little. Celestial creatures have Smite Evil and resistance to acid/cold/electricity. Fiendish creatures have Smite Good and resistance to fire/cold. The templates are otherwise identical and do not change anything that impacts on the grapple check- centipedes get their huge bonuses mostly from size categories and a decent Strength score.

[Talic]

No real mods, aside from the feel of the critter, and the fact that generally "pretty" critters get celestial, and "icky" critters get Fiendish.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK everyone,

first, on that duel thing. Talic PMed to me to sort out with Emperor Tippy the exact conditions of the duel that he in turn would uphold.

I'd say, Talic's interim summary here outlines already most of the stuff.

Otherwise, from my side to Emperor Tippy the suggestions:
1) core rules only
2) hour/lvl+ buffs (as the phantom steed) are OK to bring into the arena (or cast before). For what constitutes a buff, see Talic's summary.
3) TWO buff rounds are accorded to each combatant (so you can do your gate-solar thing if you like)
3) And I vaguely remember that no-one will die from hunger or thirst.
4) extraplanar leaving of the arena constitutes losing (not etheralness, but astral projection). Similiarly, no rope tricks or MMM.

That should about sum it up.

Then on that centipede great grappler thing.
Imo the following problem ensues: The critter will attack upon appearing - grappling is not what centipedes normally do (for once, they incur an AoO trying to do so). Only if you could communicate with them you'd have a chance to command them other tactics like flanking, protecting what ever, but something tells me that even an INT 3 fiendish vermin is quite hard to tell complex attacking tactics alien to its nature to (like grappling).

- Giacomo

[Emperor Tippy]

OK everyone,

first, on that duel thing. Talic PMed to me to sort out with Emperor Tippy the exact conditions of the duel that he in turn would uphold.

I'd say, Talic's interim summary here outlines already most of the stuff.

Otherwise, from my side to Emperor Tippy the suggestions:
1) core rules only
2) hour/lvl+ buffs (as the phantom steed) are OK to bring into the arena (or cast before). For what constitutes a buff, see Talic's summary.
3) TWO buff rounds are accorded to each combatant (so you can do your gate-solar thing if you like)
3) And I vaguely remember that no-one will die from hunger or thirst.

Fine with me.

4) extraplanar leaving of the arena constitutes losing (not etheralness, but astral projection). Similiarly, no rope tricks or MMM.

Why? They are perfectly valid tactics in an arena match and are a lot of the point about batmans strength. If he can't win at the moment he can retreat and win later without a problem. The fact that we are both confined to the arena and that we start within 30 feet of each other already significantly weakens the batman. Weakening him even further doesn't make much sense. Granted, its not that big a problem as I can avoid you without MMM or Rope Trick until after all your buffs have worn out.

[Oslecamo]

Centipedes are actually just moderate grapplers.

To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).
Step 1

Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails.

The centipede's AC is really low and most monsters will simply hit it, stop the grapple, and the centipede will have wasted it's turn.

It doesn't matter if you have a +20000000 grapple modifier if you don't have either great AC or improved grapple to back it up. Centipeded have neither.

[Signmaker]

Why? They are perfectly valid tactics in an arena match and are a lot of the point about batmans strength. If he can't win at the moment he can retreat and win later without a problem. The fact that we are both confined to the arena and that we start within 30 feet of each other already significantly weakens the batman. Weakening him even further doesn't make much sense. Granted, its not that big a problem as I can avoid you without MMM or Rope Trick until after all your buffs have worn out.

To make it quasi-sporting. Killing some time in MMM is basically burning out some wand charges for the Jonk while replenishing the options for the wizard.

Also, there's the idea that retreating to a Rope Trick is equivalent to exiting the fight aka losing.

[Oslecamo]

Also, there's the idea that retreating to a Rope Trick is equivalent to exiting the fight aka losing.

Exactly. While inside the rope trick, the wizard can't be afected, but also can't affect the world, so the monk is free to do whatever he intended to do.

When the wizard comes back, his base will be plundered, his family and friends brutally murdered and the monk will be swimming in cash and experience.

[Solo]

{scrubbed}

[Eldritch_Ent]

Exactly. While inside the rope trick, the wizard can't be afected, but also can't affect the world, so the monk is free to do whatever he intended to do.

When the wizard comes back, his base will be plundered, his family and friends brutally murdered and the monk will be swimming in cash and experience.

... Except that the fight is set in an inescapable stone sphere with no exits...

[Corolinth]

{Scrubbed}

[Frost]

Imo the following problem ensues: The critter will attack upon appearing - grappling is not what centipedes normally do (for once, they incur an AoO trying to do so). Only if you could communicate with them you'd have a chance to command them other tactics like flanking, protecting what ever, but something tells me that even an INT 3 fiendish vermin is quite hard to tell complex attacking tactics alien to its nature to (like grappling).

1) 3 Int means it knows common, and grappling isn't alien to it's nature just because it doesn't have improved grapple, if you tell it "Grap that punk and squish him!" It will do it.

2) No the Centipede doesn't attack upon appearing, it follows orders upon appearing. There is nothing about the spell that forces them to attack, they only do what they are told.

3) For grappling, in most cases you are better off summoning 1d3 of a lower level centipede and having them grapple him, you still probably beat his check, and it makes it much harder to get out when you have to break multiple holds. Also makes it easier to grapple him by provoking AoOs and then grappling.

[Collin152]

Grappling is in fact, one of the simplest forms of combat, and well used by insects.
Furthermore, Intelligence of three hasn't kept a half-orc from grappling yet, and it surely isn't going to.
But hey, Giamoco, if you feel intelligence that low is so inhibiting, there are plenty of ways for us to drop your reasonably low int score to the same level as this magically superior centipede.

[Solo]

But hey, Giamoco, if you feel intelligence that low is so inhibiting, there are plenty of ways for us to drop your reasonably low int score to the same level as this magically superior centipede.

{scrubbed}

[Arbitrarity]

{scrubbed}

/CoupDeGrace Giamonk

[Eldritch_Ent]

1) 3 Int means it knows common, and grappling isn't alien to it's nature just because it doesn't have improved grapple, if you tell it "Grap that punk and squish him!" It will do it.

2) No the Centipede doesn't attack upon appearing, it follows orders upon appearing. There is nothing about the spell that forces them to attack, they only do what they are told.

3) For grappling, in most cases you are better off summoning 1d3 of a lower level centipede and having them grapple him, you still probably beat his check, and it makes it much harder to get out when you have to break multiple holds. Also makes it easier to grapple him by provoking AoOs and then grappling.

On top of these, you can also just have the Centipede wait until Giacamo tries to grapple the wizard, THEN have it come in. I think grappling someone interferes with AoO's, doesn't it? It's like a physical contingency. "If he tries to grab me, grab him and pull him off me."

.
Imo the following problem ensues:

The critter will attack upon appearing - grappling is not what centipedes normally do

something tells me that even an INT 3 fiendish vermin is quite hard to tell complex attacking tactics alien to its nature to (like grappling).

- Giacomo

In your opinion, yes. But we're talking about what actually happens here- the problems don't actually occur.

Yes, the creature immediately goes on the offensive when summoned- but not neccisarily as an "attack action". "To the best of it's ability" is also in there, meaning a summoned creature will probably go with whatever it's best at. A snake will use it's poison bite, a rhino wuold charge, a mindflayer would use it's Psychic Blast, a monkey would throw... Err, you get the picture. They wouldn't just take a standard move action then launch a standard attack unless that was the best option. Grappling is perfectly within a centipede's nature. I mean, that's what they're built for. That's what they DO. And they bite things with poison jaws.

On top of that, it would be very easy for a conjuror to simplyuse a bonus language to learn Abyssal and Infernal and such so he can simply tell his summoned minions what to do. Plus a creature doesn't neccisarily need to understand the complexities of the situation- "Wait here and grab him when he gets close" or "go behind him while I distract him" is a fine command. Remember, wolves and other pack animals only have an int of 2, and they've been known to use some pretty clever strategies. So an INT of 3 would be able to do that and more.

[Arakune]

so... when it will start?

[Talic]

Soon as all the PM questions get answered.

[Sir Giacomo]

Why? They are perfectly valid tactics in an arena match and are a lot of the point about batmans strength. If he can't win at the moment he can retreat and win later without a problem. The fact that we are both confined to the arena and that we start within 30 feet of each other already significantly weakens the batman. Weakening him even further doesn't make much sense. Granted, its not that big a problem as I can avoid you without MMM or Rope Trick until after all your buffs have worn out.

OK, you can also use those in the duel (watch out the monk using a rod of security then...; plus, Oslecamo's remarks about real gameplay are quite accurate...)
Starting within your disjunction range and with a guaranteed contingency up (due to the known duel setting) does not "weaken" batman, but is a clear advantage to him (as are the two buff rounds). I do not think any player with duel experience will see this otherwise.

Ah, and on that centipede thing...

1) 3 Int means it knows common, and grappling isn't alien to it's nature just because it doesn't have improved grapple, if you tell it "Grap that punk and squish him!" It will do it.

It will not do it, because having INT 3 as an outsider does not mean that it speaks common. The language is not listed among the skills of the fiendish centipedes.

2) No the Centipede doesn't attack upon appearing, it follows orders upon appearing. There is nothing about the spell that forces them to attack, they only do what they are told.

SRD (Summon Monster, bold emphasis mine): This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

So you see the monster will attack UNLESS told otherwise. Which is hard when you cannot communicate with it.

3) For grappling, in most cases you are better off summoning 1d3 of a lower level centipede and having them grapple him, you still probably beat his check, and it makes it much harder to get out when you have to break multiple holds. Also makes it easier to grapple him by provoking AoOs and then grappling.

And as we can see from the spell description, the centipedes will never grapple of their own initiative (also making Mojotech's suggestions irrelevant). A celestial lion would use its improved grab ability, though - but that creature does not have that kind of grappling advantage over a same level monk.

And, btw, the monk moves faster than all centipede challenges of his level, so he'd simply evade any of those huge (near-mindless) creatures.
Plus, summon monster takes 1 full round to cast - not exactly the kind of thing to do vs an enemy who can flurry grapple you into oblivion in that same round.

- Giacomo

PS: Solo...what have you done? Hope you still read this and learn about monk powers....

[Collin152]

So learn Abyssal and/or Infernal.
A Wizard has high int, he gets more languages than he knows what to do with.

[Sir Giacomo]

Grappling is in fact, one of the simplest forms of combat, and well used by insects.
Furthermore, Intelligence of three hasn't kept a half-orc from grappling yet, and it surely isn't going to.
But hey, Giamoco, if you feel intelligence that low is so inhibiting, there are plenty of ways for us to drop your reasonably low int score to the same level as this magically superior centipede.

An insect with big claws might grapple (like an ant), but a centipede? Hmmm.
And the joker monk has INT 14, so it's a bit hard for me to follow your logic,.

- Giacomo

[Collin152]

And the joker monk has INT 14,

Correction.
He starts at 14 INT.
If intelligence works the way you say it does, it's worthwhile to use one of the many spells to reduce your intelligence to render you incapable of using your tactics.

[Sir Giacomo]

So learn Abyssal and/or Infernal.
A Wizard has high int, he gets more languages than he knows what to do with.

Yes, but a fiendish creature does not gain any language, so the vermin turned fiendish will not be able to understand you (just as prime material vermin will not be able to understand common).

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Correction.
He starts at 14 INT.
If intelligence works the way you say it does, it's worthwhile to use one of the many spells to reduce your intelligence to render you incapable of using your tactics.

Hmm. You mean touch of Idiocy or an INT-reducing poision attack?
This meets with several obstacles
1) the monk has the best touch AC in the game and a good fort save
2) even if you hit, the monk player can choose (temporarly) delete all skills that are not directly necessary for that encounter when the monk is hit (like the stealth skills). He could still use UMD then (for instance, to escape and restore his INT). Or he could just smash the offending attacker

Seriously, of all ways vs a joker monk, attacking his INT is the oddest one so far in this thread.

- Giacomo

[Collin152]

Because it wasn't a real tactic!
it was mocking the way you downplay a summoned creatures intelligence!

[SamTheCleric]

Hmm... Feeblemind would end giamonk forever though. Int and Cha drop to 1 and you can't use any skill based on Int or Cha.

But that would require some very clever saving throw manipulation to get the Will Save DC through the roof.

Edit: Let's see... the first level you'd see a feeblemind (level 5 spell) would be level 9, where giamonk's will save is +11 vs enchantment.

Wizard with a 20 starting int (grey elf, let's say), +2 from levels, +4 from item... looking at a 26 int, or +8. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus... bringing the Feeblemind DC to 25. Giamonk would need a 14+ to pass.

I'm sure that's far form optimized... but it really would end him quickly (and permanently, until he could get a wish.)