If it has stats... (Challenge to the playground)

[Melcar]

Melcar: The ELH defines the lower limit on epic magic items, and Wish doesn't create epic magic items (only normal magic items).
Casting a (Su) wish does allow you to get out of paying the XP for it though.

This is nowhere directly stated. It does not state non-epic magic items only (by raw), it simple says magic items. No limit or any mention of any form of limit or type of magic item is mentioned... At all. The mention of the staff of the magi being above the safe power of wish is because staff of the magi is an artifact and not categorized as a magic item only. Im sorry, but you are wrong... Wish does allow for the creation of arbitrarily high bonus giving items, as long as you can pay the exp cost.

[rweird]

rweird: Ah, that def. makes sense.

Teleport through Time from the future assumes your character has a future, so that's not going to work. I'm not familiar with how coming from the Far Realm makes your past immutable - can someone explain that to me? Assuming that's the case though (specifically, it would have to mean that for all intents and purposes you have no past before emerging from the Far Realm), eg. as an illithid, and then you emerge without intent to kill this creature or knowledge of it, then what would you do? If nothing, your character takes (ability loss)/(damage) in 5 rounds.
Yes, an ice assassin would still follow your commands without question. It fails to create an IA of the creature. Timeless body lasts only 1 round, so it doesn't help you survive past 5 rounds if your contingency activates immediately. Then your character would die before seeing if the IA lives or dies. Assuming you cast TB in the last round, you would survive 1 round longer and see the IA (and any IAs it creates) also take (ability loss)/(damage)/(death).

If I die in the past, I'd still have lived in the future up to the point I traveled back in time, and got my powers in the future, meaning I wouldn't die before I get them unless I'd die in the past (assuming the creature travels linearly through time, it would detect me in the present and kill me, then detect me in the future later on in its timeline, but earlier on in mine, and kill me again, assuming I don't destroy it in the past, so there would be no "die before you get your power" if I successfully destroy it in the past, and if I don't successfully destroy it, then I'd have lost, and later being killed before I had a chance wouldn't matter as I'd die either way).

The Far Realms have non-linear time progression, past in the far realms isn't parallel to past in the rest of the universe. I suppose coming from the plane of wood (I think) would mean your past is in the future as time flows backwards.

What if the ice assassin is of some commoner that passes by, and has no knowledge of the creature?

What abilities do I lose exactly from "ability loss"? How much damage does it deal?

[Anthrowhale]

This step fails.

What precisely? Assuming the shape fails (because the creature is deific?) ? Or gaining the advantage of an extraordinary doom ability (because it's not extraordinary? Or some exception?)?

Your character failed to evade the doom effect and takes (ability loss)/(damage)/(death) in a few rounds.

Even though the spawn is explicitly immune to all nonmagical attack forms via incorporeality? (It would be helpful if you note exceptions to the rules explicitly, to reassure that you are interpreting the rules correctly. The rules are complex.)

[The Glyphstone]

Rather than plow through this entire monster thread, is there someone around you can trust as impartial third-party observer? It might be reassuring to many of the challengers to know, for example, the monster is not protected by Fiat(Ex): Any entity in existence that could potentially cause any harm to this creature is stripped of all class/racial abilities and killed, no save or spell resistance allowed, unless they reverse Fiat by waving a rubber chicken and dancing the Hokey Pokey within 5 rounds of arbitrarily beginning to exist.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I call that a draw.



Is there a way to get the Causal Disregard for the Action Economy going without Dominant Ideal? Possibly using the Meditation Hustle or similar?

I don't think there are sufficient actions to run the Casual Disconcern and Meditation Hustle simultaneously - hence the use of Dominant Ideal. But if we can't figure out how to get the Mad Minute up and running, we'll want to give Casual Disconcern a shot. I need to take a closer look, see if we could throw in a recharge set up (or Font of Power), since I'm pretty sure that's where it struggles relative to the Mad Minute + Psionic Dreadnought.

And I guess the problem with calling that a draw is that, while the creature is 'forever lost', it still kills the character after five rounds.

Kalaska'Agathas: Hm, are there any safe uses of Reality Revision that change creatures' attitude? If so that might work.
And sorry - I haven't looked at this thread all the past week.

Would the Fission's hostility count under any of the following?

Undo the harmful effects of many other powers, such as microcosm, geas/quest, or insanity.

Remove injuries and afflictions. A single reality revision can aid one creature per manifester level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction.

or

You can remove any compulsions and charms affecting the subject. In fact, you can remove any instantaneous or permanent effect caused by a psychic power with psychic chirurgery. Unlike with aura alteration, these effects end or are negated as soon as this power is manifested, with no need for another saving throw.

Psychic chirurgery negates all forms of insanity, confusion, the effect of such powers as microcosm, and so on,

Then yes, those would negate the effect. I'll have to look into other spells/powers that would allow an instant Diplomacy check (and suitable bonuses) too, as another option to look into, but it will have to wait till later. Given the text of Fission, however, I would suggest that anything which could make it act contrary to the "Your duplicate thinks and acts exactly as you do and follows your orders, although it will not do anything you wouldn’t do yourself." line should count for the affliction (or the harmful effects) clause, if not any of the others. But I do wonder if, like with Ice Assassin, the Fission's being made Hostile (through whatever effect) gets around the "follows your orders" line. This is only a small quibble, since I need to figure out a way to get Jersey's thralls back from Hostile, in any case, but I thought I'd bring it up.

[kardar233]

Ah, of course. I should've realized.
The illithid: There's still a few problems as far as I understand them. 1. Wish doesn't create constructs as a safe wish. But your build is fairly open so we can assume you Gate one in, unless there's some reason you don't want to. 2. True Mind Switch fails because Golems are immune to magic (and psionics because of PMT). 3. (sortof) Where is Teleport through Time being used? As I understand it, you're trying to mind switch with a flesh golem for its immunities.

1. Wish can create magic items as a safe wish and golems are crafted as magic items, so I believe you can Wish a golem into existence. I'm inclined to think so as I believe Wishing Shadesteel Golems into existence is part of the Tippyverse and he usually doesn't get RAW wrong. I don't want to Gate one in because that means that it can be affected before the Gate is cast rather than springing into existence.

2. As I'm using Supernatural Transformation the True Mind Switch is unaffected by the Golem's immunity: "A flesh golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance" "Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not". Tyr needs to throw in a Polymorph Any Object to get around the Golem's immunity to [Mind-Affecting] but that's not a serious problem.

3. No, as we've seen the immunities are irrelevant. There are two primary reasons for Tyr to do all this:

• Because of the combination of Teleport Through Time and Thought Bottle, Tyr is level 20 with all his abilities and experiences from the moment he is created (by himself) and so can keep up the Font of Power/Temporal Reiteration/Timeless Body loop so that he spends his entire life completely invulnerable.
• Because he creates himself he is self-causing. Even a completely invulnerable character could be attacked by say, killing their parents. But since Tyr creates himself and is invulnerable while doing it, he cannot even be attacked in the past.

~EDIT~ If these actions allow Tyr to survive the Creature's attack, then he has all the time in the world to deal with it.

He'll use a Reality Revision to transport himself to "the location of the creature that set off my Contingency" or variations on the wording thereof. With True Seeing up he should get a look at the Creature and then he'll use Hypercognition and Metafaculty to learn everything he can about it.

Unless he learns something to the contrary there he'll consider killing it with a Sphere of Annihilation to be his best bet. Then he just needs to find one; maybe he'll find the Tomb of Horrors or something. Once he's found one he doesn't need to bother with making control checks; as he has his Timeless Body immunity he can just pick the Sphere up and carry it. Then he goes back to the Creature and touches it with the Sphere.

[rockdeworld]

the Stuffy Doll died immediately upon creation - not even the standard 1d4+1 rounds

I missed this. Sorry, I need to be more careful with my words. The I meant that the standard 1d4+1 rounds did apply. The Stuffy Doll doesn't have detection abilities, so it wouldn't notice being targeted.

But let's say theoretically it did have them, eg. Foresight. The name of the creature is presumably on the Emerald Tablets, but the Stuffy Doll might not find it in 5-2=3 rounds. But with infinite attempts eventually it does, and hits the creature with Stuffy Doll (Ex) and its other abilities more than 2 rounds before its own destruction. The creature dies. Cheater.

[Qwertystop]

I missed this. Sorry, I need to be more careful with my words. The I meant that the standard 1d4+1 rounds did apply. The Stuffy Doll doesn't have detection abilities, so it wouldn't notice being targeted.

But let's say theoretically it did have them, eg. Foresight. The name of the creature is presumably on the Emerald Tablets, but the Stuffy Doll might not find it in 5-2=3 rounds. But with infinite attempts eventually it does, and hits the creature with Stuffy Doll (Ex) and its other abilities more than 2 rounds before its own destruction. The creature dies. Cheater.

Um. I haven't seen anything to give the impression that the Stuffy Doll's die-in-two-rounds ability is any less "cheater"-y than this thing's "lose all abilities and also take infinite damage that goes through all protections except Timeless Body, even if you're in a Time Stop or other action-granting thing that should delay the reaction from your perspective."

[copycatcat]

Rather than plow through this entire monster thread, is there someone around you can trust as impartial third-party observer? It might be reassuring to many of the challengers to know, for example, the monster is not protected by Fiat(Ex): Any entity in existence that could potentially cause any harm to this creature is stripped of all class/racial abilities and killed, no save or spell resistance allowed, unless they reverse Fiat by waving a rubber chicken and dancing the Hokey Pokey within 5 rounds of arbitrarily beginning to exist.

Well, currently, Erik Vale and MetaMyconid have the stats, since they beat it.

[...]

After using Wish to go to its location, a level 20 human Wizard who is able to speak any non-secret language with the usage of the speak language skill walks up to it and asks for it, if possible, to turn off its death aura thing. If this works, the Wizard questions the intentions of the creature.

EDIT: If this does not work, convince a friendly deity to make an aleax of the monster. Scry on the aleax, and have the deity command the aleax to not resist your scrying attempts. Send the aleax after the monster. See what happens.

[Heliomance]

After using Wish to go to its location, a level 20 human Wizard who is able to speak any non-secret language with the usage of the speak language skill walks up to it and asks for it, if possible, to turn off its death aura thing. If this works, the Wizard questions the intentions of the creature.

EDIT: If this does not work, convince a friendly deity to make an aleax of the monster. Scry on the aleax, and have the deity command the aleax to not resist your scrying attempts. Send the aleax after the monster. See what happens.

The Wizard dies. The deity becomes hostile and kills you.

[rockdeworld]

Heliomance: Yeah, even without knowledge of or intent to kill the creature, BUT in the present. I understood that challenger to be a creature who just emerged from the Far Realms last turn or something. You're correct in thinking that having no knowledge of or intent to kill the creature before a certain point in the past means the ability won't hit you before that point in the past. (Edit: Unless the creature activates the other condition for being targeted in the past, sorry, there is more than 1)
Every animate being in the multiverse: You didn't explicitly say this, but I assume by "separate challengers" you mean at different points in time. If it's the same time, I have to assume they're all challenging together. In the separate case, they're all targeted. In the together case, only 1 is.

I suggest using non-magical persuasion methods to convince a half-golem to manifest True Mind Switch on you (likely using a magic item).

Oh, that's probably what kardar233 meant by crafting the contingent true mind switch (also kardar clarified it's a Su switch and ignores SR).

kardar233's Tyr: I see what you're saying now. But constructs aren't defined as magic items as far as I know. The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse (which I love) doesn't talk about creating Shadesteel Golems with Wishes - presumably they're crafted with plenty XP from Thought Bottles and material resources from other Wish/True Creation traps. So I'm not sure how you can quickly get a golem.
Also, yes, Priya was on the first page and lost against V1.

Melcar: What I'm saying is that epic magic items are not magic items for the purposes of item creation. Although not necessary for this distinction to be RAW, the rest of the Epic Level Jokebook corroborates it with feats whose sole purpose is to allow characters that can craft magic items to craft epic magic items. Wish says it can make magic items, and magic items aren't epic magic items, so it can't make epic magic items. Magic items with bonuses exceeding certain values, as defined in the ELH, are epic magic items, so Wish can't create them.

If I die in the past, I'd still have lived in the future up to the point I traveled back in time, and got my powers in the future.

The Far Realms have non-linear time progression, past in the far realms isn't parallel to past in the rest of the universe. I suppose coming from the plane of wood (I think) would mean your past is in the future as time flows backwards.

If this particular ability results in the target dying in the past, their presence is erased from the timeline after that point (unlike in DragonBall Z), so they wouldn't have a future.
I'm not sure how to interpret that bit about the Far Realms. It sounds like the intention was that mucking around in time wouldn't work for the Far Realm, but what you posted doesn't really support that. For the sake of argument let's say that is how the Far Realm works though.
An Ice Assassin of some commoner: takes (ability loss)/(damage).
Characters lose all abilities from ability loss - (Ex)/(Su)/(Sp)/(Na)/etc. They don't lose racial traits unless those are also abilities (so for example a construct would still have immunity to negative energy).
It deals NI damage.

Anthrowhale: Assuming the shape fails (for some reason). Benefits associated with that would fail too (gaining the doom ability, etc).
Also: Yes, even though it's immune to nonmagical attack forms. There are a lot of exceptions, so I'm not sure I can account for all of them. But henceforth if you list something in your buffs/prep I'll account for it in my response.

The Glyphstone: I would trust anyone to be a 3rd party who didn't want to continue guessing. I made that offer a few posts ago, but no one took it. Are you interested?

Kalaska'Agathas: On reading those and re-reading the ability, I find the hostility can't be removed.

Qwertystop: You're right. I'm calling people a cheater when they use a greater than ECL 20 build. It doesn't mean anything else.

...: The creature doesn't respond. Then as Heliomance said.
On a side note, as a CS student it makes me laugh that your name is 3 punctuation marks.


Also, between Jersey and Tyr and some others(?), there's several continually improving builds that I am now having to go back 4 pages to find the originals of, and I can't remember all the changes being made. Would you guys attach a spoiler (or something) of your entire challenger+plan when you upgrade it?

[rweird]

Another attempt: Wu Jen 10/Spellguard of Silverymoon 5/Wu Jen +5, happens to UMD a scroll of foresight when the challenge begins. Round 1: Wish to be adjacent to the creature. Round 2: Limited wish for next attack to hit. Round 3: Cast Transcend Mortality on it via Spellguard (it boosts saves, so it counts) via touch attack, it is guaranteed to hit because of Limited Wish. Round 4: Dismiss Transcend Mortality, the following clause takes effect on the creature: "When the spell ends, you are instantly slain and reduced to a pile of dust (as disintegrate). This effect allows no save and can't be prevented by any means, though you can be resurrected normally afterward." (emphasis mine).

NI isn't a number. I believe PCs get to know how much damage their character takes.

For the time thing, it doesn't matter if in the present I am erased from the future. What matters is that I can't be erased from the future before I go to the present (so if I succeed, I can't be retroactively killed, and if I fail, I die, but I'd die if I'm from the present too).

As for abilities: I believe construct immunities are natural abilities (as is a Wizard's spellcasting), so I don't quite follow you saying natural abilities are removed, but not removing natural abilities.

EDIT: From what I can tell, natural abilities are results of a creature's physical nature (natural weapons, movement speed, etc), however class abilities typically aren't a physical thing, or, in the case of spellcasting, specified as Ex, Su, or Sp, meaning I think technically, spellcasting would be exempt, as would bonus feats, sneak attack, and trap finding). It seems like abilities in D&D just don't count as abilities.

[...]

Okay, two more mundane ones.

1. The first Wizard's twin goes to the creature and tells it that killing people trying to make friendly contact with it indiscriminately won't get it anywhere in life.

2. An Evil Cultist Wizard 20 travels to the creature and begins worship of it.

[Melcar]

Melcar: What I'm saying is that epic magic items are not magic items for the purposes of item creation. Although not necessary for this distinction to be RAW, the rest of the Epic Level Jokebook corroborates it with feats whose sole purpose is to allow characters that can craft magic items to craft epic magic items. Wish says it can make magic items, and magic items aren't epic magic items, so it can't make epic magic items. Magic items with bonuses exceeding certain values, as defined in the ELH, are epic magic items, so Wish can't create them.

As I have said before, this is blatantly wrong. Nowhere within the spell description does it present even a hint of some sort of limit. The spell is WISH, there is no limit to the power of the magic items this spell is capable of creating by RAW. Were you to be right in your limiting of wish, the spell would have to say something that somehow indicated that there were an upper limit to the power of a given magic item. It doesn't... at all. So it's kind of hard to continue any meaningful debate, when you simply choose to disregard RAW. It not only seem silly, but it simultaneously hurts your credibility when, if you get wish wrong, I wonder how many of the other rules of this beast you have gotten wrong.

I advise you to accept the facts of RAW and either describe how it wins, if the beast can, or acknowledge that for all your cunning I have beaten it!!!

[Heliomance]

Heliomance: Yeah, even without knowledge of or intent to kill the creature, BUT in the present. I understood that challenger to be a creature who just emerged from the Far Realms last turn or something. You're correct in thinking that having no knowledge of or intent to kill the creature before a certain point in the past means the ability won't hit you before that point in the past. (Edit: Unless the creature activates the other condition for being targeted in the past, sorry, there is more than 1)
Every animate being in the multiverse: You didn't explicitly say this, but I assume by "separate challengers" you mean at different points in time. If it's the same time, I have to assume they're all challenging together. In the separate case, they're all targeted. In the together case, only 1 is.

So, literally, all that is needed to be targetted is to be mentioned in this thread. That's an entirely meta qualification, and feels very disingenuous to me.

As I have said before, this is blatantly wrong. Nowhere within the spell description does it present even a hint of some sort of limit. The spell is WISH, there is no limit to the power of the magic items this spell is capable of creating by RAW. Were you to be right in your limiting of wish, the spell would have to say something that somehow indicated that there were an upper limit to the power of a given magic item. It doesn't... at all. So it's kind of hard to continue any meaningful debate, when you simply choose to disregard RAW. It not only seem silly, but it simultaneously hurts your credibility when, if you get wish wrong, I wonder how many of the other rules of this beast you have gotten wrong.

I advise you to accept the facts of RAW and either describe how it wins, if the beast can, or acknowledge that for all your cunning I have beaten it!!!

You're right, there's no limit to the power of magic items listed in Wish. rockdeworld's contention, which seems to at least have some basis in RAW to me, is that there is a limit to the power of things that are members of the set "Magic Item". We're not looking at the limits of Wish, we're looking at the definition of "Magic Item". rockdeworld is saying that things above a certain power aren't defined as "Magic Items", they're defined as "Epic Magic Items", an entirely different category, and that as Wish does not state it has the ability to create "Epic Magic Items", it doesn't.

[georgie_leech]

You're right, there's no limit to the power of magic items listed in Wish. rockdeworld's contention, which seems to at least have some basis in RAW to me, is that there is a limit to the power of things that are members of the set "Magic Item". We're not looking at the limits of Wish, we're looking at the definition of "Magic Item". rockdeworld is saying that things above a certain power aren't defined as "Magic Items", they're defined as "Epic Magic Items", an entirely different category, and that as Wish does not state it has the ability to create "Epic Magic Items", it doesn't.

The question is, is "Epic Magic Items" a subset of "Magic Items" (being Magic Items of sufficient value), or are they entirely distinct sets with no overlap (governed by different rules)? Is there an impartial DM-esque forum poster that we can trust to make rulings in these odd RAW shenanigans?

[Alihandros]

Alihandros's kender: he pricks his finger on a door-lock trap... wait, what?

What door-lock trap? The one in it's pouch, he made a new friend it seems

[rockdeworld]

rweird: Yeah, you're right about spellcasting, etc. I wrote "class abilities" in the ability description, but it should say "class features" (if you'll be kind enough to grant that that's just a typo, since class abilites don't exist). If it helps you imagine loss of (Na) abilities, imagine it the same way Alter Self doesn't grant extra attacks. I don't recall writing that it doesn't remove natural abilities. What distinction are you making between the two?
Wu Jen: takes (ability loss)/(damage) before getting the ability to UMD a scroll of Foresight.
You're right that NI isn't a number. I'll give a precise definition:
For all n in the natural numbers, n <= NI. If n =/= NI, n < NI.
So if you have a way to gain NI hit points (and since I realize this means you stop gaining hit points at some point, I'd pass anyone that has the ability to gain NI hit points), you could surive. If you can gain infinite hit points, you can survive. If you can only gain 1 google googol hit points, you would not.
When it comes to time travel from the future: I see what you're saying and it makes sense. You're talking about having a future self come back with a Thought Bottle and a plan. In this case, just like the guy who pulled the Vizier card, I don't know if it's possible for this scenario to happen, because there might be nothing this character can do to survive.

...'s wizards: Same as previous response for both. The creature would probably make a bad debater and a bad god.

Melcar: I'll happily respond to your challenger if you can prove it's RAW-legal. Here is the RAW for Wish:

Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

And here is the RAW for epic magic items:

While not truly an artifact, the epic magic item is a creation of such power that it surpasses other magic items. Epic magic items are objects of great power and value. The following are typical characteristics of an epic magic item. In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item.

• Grants a bonus on attacks or damage greater than +5.
• Grants an enhancement bonus to armor higher than +5.
• Has a special ability with a market price modifier greater than +5.
• Grants an armor bonus of greater than +10 (not including magic armor’s enhancement bonus).
• Grants a natural armor, deflection, or resistance bonus greater than +5.
• Grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score greater than +6.
• Grants an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than +30.
• Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th.
• Has a caster level above 20th.
• Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items.

You can certainly interpret epic magic items as being a subset of magic items for the purpose of Wish (it would make sense). Or not. For the purpose of this competition, I chose to go with not.

Heliomance: Yes, pretty much all that is needed to be targeted is to be mentioned in this thread. But being mentioned doesn't cause you to be targeted. As you've seen, the creature is a construct that doesn't die from old age. So it could target everything eventually, and that's my working rule. When your character becomes a challenger, their time has come up.

Alihandros: It's a reference to, I think, Dragons of Autumn Twilight. It's been a long time since I read the book in question.

[rweird]

I understand loss of natural abilities. It is a fiat-kill after all that doesn't actually deal any specified amount of damage, it just deals "more". However, you specify a construct would still be immune to negative energy, but I believe that immunity would be a natural ability, as it comes from being a construct (its physical nature makes it not have a life force, and therefore it is not susceptible to having it's life force be manipulated).

Wu Jen: Second try, doesn't have foresight, but happens upon the creature and spontaneously decides to attack it in the aforementioned manner.

[...]

Okay, time for more water testing.

1. This breaks the rules, so I am asking it as a hypothetical and not a way of defeating the monster. The monster encounters another monster with the exact same attributes as iteslf. What happens?

2. This one has a reason for existence, I swear. A person goes up to the monster and insults it. This insult is so horrible that it would drive anyone to get revenge on the person in the most horrible way possible. Even if the creature cannot understand the language, the words are so full of hate and malice that any being capable of experiencing emotion would have the same reaction. What happens?

[The Glyphstone]

The Glyphstone: I would trust anyone to be a 3rd party who didn't want to continue guessing. I made that offer a few posts ago, but no one took it. Are you interested?

Sure, I'll volunteer - haven't made any guesses yet, and don't really have interest in doing so. I obviously can't stake red prestige on it, but hopefully just as a poster I'm trustworthy enough.

[kardar233]

kardar233's Tyr: I see what you're saying now. But constructs aren't defined as magic items as far as I know. The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse (which I love) doesn't talk about creating Shadesteel Golems with Wishes - presumably they're crafted with plenty XP from Thought Bottles and material resources from other Wish/True Creation traps. So I'm not sure how you can quickly get a golem.

I'd argue that since Golems are crafted like magic items and Craft Construct is an [Item Creation] feat a Golem can be created by Wish.

If not, then Tyr just needs to find another fast way of creating a mind. (Su) Fabricate + Animate Object + Awaken Construct could work, or he could just Polymorph Any Object something.

Also, between Jersey and Tyr and some others(?), there's several continually improving builds that I am now having to go back 4 pages to find the originals of, and I can't remember all the changes being made. Would you guys attach a spoiler (or something) of your entire challenger+plan when you upgrade it?

Illithid Savant who's eaten a Wizard 20 and an Ardent10/Metamind10 Teleports Through Time to his creation, creates something with a mind that I'll call Tyr 2.0, True Mind Switches with it, Tyr 2.0 drinks the thought bottle and in his future he will go back and be Tyr 1.0, create himself, etc. Timeless Body is active this whole time so he can't be harmed even in his past.

If the Creature can't kill Tyr he has all the time he likes to find a Sphere of Annihilation, grab it, Reality Revision to the Creature and touch the Sphere to it. He may need to Plane Shift to the Ethereal to make it stick.

If that doesn't destroy it, he'll go find a Seer 20 to nom on and use Hypercognition and Metafaculty to find out as much as he can about the Creature to figure out how it can be killed.

[Alihandros]

Ah, I see, so does the Kender have a new friend?

[copycatcat]

Melcar: I'll happily respond to your challenger if you can prove it's RAW-legal. Here is the RAW for Wish:

And here is the RAW for epic magic items:


You can certainly interpret epic magic items as being a subset of magic items for the purpose of Wish (it would make sense). Or not. For the purpose of this competition, I chose to go with not.

Epic magic items are magic items because of how adjectives work.
I think this is learned at the same grade level you learn what adjectives are.
Saying epic magic items aren't magic items is like saying an epic wizard isn't a wizard.
Saying that they aren't gives you no credibility at all.

EDIT: Sorry for the attacks in here, I was annoyed because you made me feel like I was talking to a first grader and having a hard time with stopping.
It is complete RAI for Wish to work this way. What is not RAI is for people to have Wish as an Su ability and use it for magic items.

[rockdeworld]

Epic magic items are magic items because of how adjectives work.

In that case say they're not just magic items, just like artifacts aren't just magic equipment. It doesn't matter what you say about them, so long as you understand they're in different categories (or can prove they're not with RAW). In a similar manner, an Epic Wizard actually is a different thing from a Wizard in the rulebook. Even though in RL an epic wizard would be a wizard too, in the rulebook they're in different categories.

If nothing else convinces you, just think of it as my applying to this competition the idea that since Summon Nature's Ally I allows you to summon a Wolf but not a Dire Wolf (which you can do with SNA III) that Wish creates magic items but not epic magic items.

[rweird]

I would say rockdeworld has a point, as epic spellcasting is different than spellcasting, despite adjectives saying otherwise. However, I would agree that epic magic items technically would be a subset of normal magic items, as the rules say

In the following sections, each general type of magic item, such as armor or scrolls, has an overall description, followed by descriptions of specific items, if any. Each magic item description and table follows the same format used for nonepic magic items. Specific exceptions are noted as necessary.

- http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm

As it refers to epic magic items as normal magic items in that section, it referring to nonepic magic items as magic items as well means that both epic and nonepic magic items are subsets of magic items. Wish refers to this greater subset.

This might be a misprint, but I haven't found anything that specifies epic and nonepic magic items aren't both magic items.

[rockdeworld]

As it refers to epic magic items as normal magic items in that section, it referring to nonepic magic items as magic items as well means that both epic and nonepic magic items are subsets of magic items. Wish refers to this greater subset.

That's a good point. I'll probably use that interpretation in the future. However, since there were other people using Wish to create items, I think for this round of the competition I'll stick with the interpretation I've used for consistency. Does anyone have a major objection to that?

Edit: stealth update! In lieu of a double-post:
rweird's Wu Jen without Foresight: takes (ability loss)/(damage) before getting the ability Spellguard.

...'s water testing: 1. Probably could not happen.
2. No response. I think the provoke you're going for has no such power unless you had an ability to back it up.

kardar233's Tyr: Golems are crafted like items, but I haven't seen them classified as magic items anywhere (though I could be wrong again). Saying they are solely because the feat is [item creation] is too much of a stretch, I think.
That said, sure we can say you have crafted contingent Fabricate+Animate Objects+Permanency+Awaken Construct. The problem is it's now a creature hostile to you. The good thing is you can command it to attack the creature until you finish casting TMS. So you swap with it.
At this point, is Timeless Body on your new body, or old one? If old, you've got <5 rounds. Which is probably long enough for a (Su) Wish(-crafted Persistent Timeless Body). If new, the targeting would go back in time to the point where the time loop was created. But this is version 2 which doesn't have a start point. So ok, it seems to me that your character evades death o_O. Nothing happens after that. The Sphere destroys the creature. Congratulations *fanfare*

Alihandros: Er, I guess that's up to the Kender.

Melcar: Ignoring wish, let's say a creature with those things did exist. Continuous Celerity probably doesn't do what you think it does. But setting aside the rules mess that is continuous instantaneous effects, your character would take (ability loss)/(damage)/(death) before gaining the ability to cast (Su) Wishes.

[Anthrowhale]

Ok, new plan. This is a feat-amped variant of the Stutter caster in my sig. Let's call it Stutter 2.

19[effectively 22] Class levels Archivist 1/Vampire Bloodline 3/Contemplative 1/Lore Master 1//Church Inquisitor 1/Dweomerkeeper 2/Hathran 5/Dweomerkeeper 8

Q. How does it early qualify for some classes? A: By using class rebuilding from PHBII. I'll go through the details if necessary. Gheden is an LA+1 template which is bought off at level 3. The vampire bloodline levels are taken before level 2. This costs 6K XP in total leaving a reserve of 13K XP.

Contemplative Domain is Magic.

Feats:22 (1 human, 7 levels, {Church Inquisitor[Inquisition], Divine Oracle[Oracle]} domains traded for Devotion Feats DCFS to chosen feat, 3 Gheden DCFS to chosen, 3 Vampire Bloodline DCFS to chosen
1 Loremaster, 2 flaws, Frog God's Fane, Otyugh Hole (DCFS), Archivist Scribe Scroll)
(Flaw 1) Twin Spell
(Flaw 2) Arcane thesis[Humanoid Essence]
(Human) Ethran
(Archivist 1) Scribe Scroll
1 Extend Spell
(Frog God's Fane) Skill Focus(Knowledge[Religion])
3 Persistent Spell
6 Leadership
9 AT(Arcane Fusion)
12 Initiate of Mystra
15 AT(Greater Arcane Fusion)
18 AT(Wish)
Lore Master: AT(Limited Wish)
Divine Oracle: Oracle Domain -> Luck Devotion -> DCFS[Node Spellcasting]
Church Inquisitor Inquisition: ->Knowledge Devotion -> DCFS[Metanode Spell]
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will-> DCFS[Alternate Source Spell]
Gheden Toughness -> DCFS[Selective Spell]
Gheden Die-hard -> DCFS[Reach Spell]
Gheden Endurance -> DCFS[Invisible Spell]
Vampire 2 Stealthy -> DCFS[Repeat Spell]
Vampire 10 Lightning Reflexes -> DCFS[Ocular spell]
Vampire 14 Improved Initiative -> Arcane Thesis[Avasculate]

As an archivist, Stutter 2 has access to essentially all spells. The easy way to access arcane spells is to scribe a divine scroll of an arcane spell personally using a friendly arcane caster to provide the spell component.

For personal security, Stutter 2 creates a dead magic demiplane and uses node genesis to create an L7 earth node on that demiplane. On that demiplane are Dominated Ice Assassins of an Ice Assasin of Stutter 2 which spend their time using circle magic to amp their caster level to 40 and spells to level 20. Their only impact should be boosting Stutter 2's caster level to 40.

Stutter 2 is a persistomancer with plausibly access to virtually every spell.

For information security, Stutter 2 uses at all times:
(1) Extended Mindblank P from Detect/influence/read thoughts, Mind-affecting, information gathering
(2) Extended Persistent Superior Invisibility. All senses but touch or truesight
(3) Invisible Extended Obscuring Snow. LoS, blocks truesight.
(4) Extended Snowsight [alleviates Obscuring Snow].

For physical security, Stutter 2 uses at all times:
(1) Selective Extended Persistent AMF. This does not affect Stutter 2, but does affect all spells/items within the AoE. This is cast 10 levels lower than the maximum, so it can be easily handled via IoM. Immune to all magical attacks [except IoM or Invoke Magic].
(2) Selective Extended Ghost Trap. This does not affect Stutter 2 but otherwise renders all incorporeal within the area corporeal.
(3) Extended Persistent Permeable Form. This makes Stutter 2 incorporeal _within_ an AMF _without_ disappearing (since the AMF is selective). Immune to all nonmagical attack forms [except Serren Wood].
(4) Extended Persistent Reach Favor the Martyr. Immune to dazed, nauseated, sickened, staggered.
(5) Extended Persistent Veil of Undeath. Immune Poison, Sleep, Paralysis, Disease, Death, Critical damage, Death from Massive damage, ability drain, energy drain, fatigue, exhaustion, nonlethal, physical ability damage, nonobject fort saves.
(6) Extended Persistent Ocular Delay Death. Immune to death from hp damage.
(7) Extended Persistent Foresight.

For general preparation, Stutter 2 always has active: Extended Persistent Arcane Spellsurge

The above is minimal. Please add on every other beneficial persistable or long duration spell.

Upon learning of impending doom from foresight, Stutter 2 immediately casts Invisible Metanode Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Invisible Metanode Twin Arcane Fusion[Celerity], Celerity] from an 8th level slot as standard action which grants 6 standard actions.
The first standard action is a Wish to transport to the thing as a standard action.
As a nonaction, the thing becomes corporeal.
The second standard action casts a Supernatural Invisible Metanode Twin Wish [ Invisible Metanode Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Know Vulnerability, Invisible Metanode Twin Limited Wish[ Invisible Metanode Twin Arcane Fusion[Know Vulnerability] ] ] ]. Supernatural spell makes this SR:No, so the only defense is a will save. This is effectively 20 castings of the spell, so the will save should be penetrated with probability 64% via fail fishing.
The third standard actions casts surge of fortune.
As an immediate action, invoke surge of fortune.
The fourth standard actions casts a Supernatural Invisible Metanode Twin Wish [ Invisible Metanode Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Invisible Metanode Twin Limited Wish[ Invisible alt-source Twin Reach Humanoid Essence ] ] ]. This is 16 castings of Humanoid Essence which are SR:No due to supernatural spell. The probability of a will save fail should be 56% via fail-fishing. This makes it vulnerable to death effects, Necromancy, and nonlethal damage.
The fifth standard action casts surge of fortune[1] again.
With the 6th standard action, cast surge of fortune[2] again.

On the next round, use an immediate action to invoke surge of fortune[1].
As a standard action cast Supernatural Invisible Metanode Twin Wish [ Invisible Metanode Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Invisible Metanode Twin Avasculate, Wings of Flurry ] ]. Twin spell uses the same parameters, in particular the same to-hit roll. Surge of fortune makes this a '20'. Supernatural spell makes this SR:No. So Avasculate should hit 8 times reducing it's hp by a factor of 256. The last wings of flurry does about 40*3.5= 140 points of damage with a reflex save for half damage. This knocks it out if hp <= 35840. Probably not?

On the next round, use an immediate action to invoke surge of fortune[2].
Use a standard action to cast Invisible Metanode Twin Arcane Fusion[Celerity] to gain two standard actions
With the first standard action to cast Supernatural Invisible Metanode Twin Wish [ Invisible Metanode Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Invisible Metanode Twin Avasculate, Wings of Flurry ] ]. Twin spell uses the same parameters, in particular the same to-hit roll. Surge of fortune makes this a '20'. Supernatural spell makes this SR:No. So Avasculate should hit 8 times reducing it's hp by a factor of 2^16 = 65536. The last wings of flurry does about 40*3.5= 140 points of damage with a reflex save for half damage. This knocks it out if starting hp <= 9175040. Probably yes?
With the second standard action, Wish it to stay dead, in the same manner as for a Tarrasque knocked out by nonlethal damage.

The desired effect: Evade doom effect via accumulated immunities via dead magic+incorporeal+AMF, Get a full download of creatures special abilities via know vulnerability, Creature is knocked out by accumulated nonlethal damage, Creature is killed by a wish.

[bobthedragon]

Hmm, might as well give this a shot-
Human Artificer 20 using maximum cost reduction cheese and nested thought bottles xp cheese

Wedded to History feat at first level (not sure if it RAW gives endless quality, if it doesn't, instead just use polymorph any object to polymorph permanent into younger version of self as part of crafted contingency, condition- you get really old)

Craft two identical sets of items all at caster level 15(artificer can use 2 levels higher than he is for meeting qualifications, this doesn't increase caster level):
items of continuous timeless body
two items of continuous foresight
two items of continuous mind blank
travel back in time and at the moment of his birth gives himself 1 of each item. one set of the items will be "stuck" in a time loop, once it reaches a certain point in the artificers life, it is immediately given back to his baby self, the other set stays with him into the future.

thuan ring (I forget how to spell it, the material that traps your soul if you die while touching it)
craft contingent true resurrection- when my soul enters the ring

also at some point get continuous arcane sight

Do a wish teleport 20 feet away from creature,
twin spell, and quicken a wand/staff/scroll/something of celerity
toss a command activated item of antimagic field 5 feet away from it, and still 15 feet away from you then apply persist metamagic and activate it

If anything in the following step would result in the Lady deciding to kill me, assume I didn't actually do it
[
take a picture with the camera invented with insanely high crafting and profession(inventor)
have messenger homunculus spread the word to everyone within a mile about the character your fighting, including the photo, and all information you got from arcane sight. Just generally spread the word that its a major threat that probably needs to die. Do something to keep people from knowing that I am connected to the homunculus so that if the hate effect thingy takes effect, they will kill the messenger, not me (Do all the people who hear this die? Do they all hate me? just hate the messenger? or do only the people who decide to act on the advice do stuff?)
]

Have a perfectly accurate watch that lets you know exactly when the antimagic field is about to end so you can have actions readied to redo the antimagic stuff

there are a few possible paths after this:
1)
take a half hour break and use craft(basketweaving) to make the single most epic basket that has ever existed. Show it to whatever it is you are fighting and it will be so impressed, it will suppress whatever it does that kills everyone and join you in a business venture to help sell your baskets.

2)
do the craft infinite staffs/big fire trick. use nonmagical means to light the fire, and make sure the item of antimagic field is something that won't burn.

3)
profit



Specific cost reduction stuff located here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...5&topic=7274.0
With the nested thought bottles negating xp costs and all crafted items only costing about 3.8% of normal market value, you effectively get infinite money (technically somewhere around 20-25 million)