LGBTAitp - Part Nineteen

[Arachu]

Birchgrove:

Spoiler

Show

Loved your replies on the Mindflayer romance! We should write a series and become rich as Scandinavian trolls dragons!

If I had only figured out how to draw those things in my last Lovecraft phase, I'd try to depict one with sparkling tentacles and sad-looking eyes.

Quotes from The Rose Dragon over at the Facebook Chat:

Spoiler

Show

Birchgrove, a full list of your fetishes and other sexual kinks would probably be longer than the full list of laws of some countries.

You are the reason we have Rule 36 for.

(Another poster asks whether he meant Rule 34; "If it exists, there's porn of it.")

You fulfill an important duty.
No, 36.
Those two are different rules.

"If it exists, someone has a fetish for it. No exceptions."

It's sad funny because it's true.

II suppose I must be a compelling argument for 63, then.

CHANGE PLACES! XD

Could someone explain how terrorists got involved into the bro-fist?

It's a more-violent equivalent of the high-five and therefore anarchic? :shrug:

I see what you're getting at, but from what I understand, it's not just about emmasculation, though I bet lots of cismen would feel castrated if they suddenly got transformed into women. (I know I would miss my Willie Garvin, and I'd probably hate the period and PMS even if I would enjoy getting penetrated while having sex and would try to do the best of the situation.)

I guess in a manner of speaking said cismen would be castrated (unless it shapeshifted instead of somehow being replaced), though they wouldn't necessarily be emasculated if they had masculine features - not sure where the semantics end and the relativity begins.

I'm not sure how I'd react... I think I'd be really happy with a female body, but I really like my anatomy... Oh, if only humans were shapechangers.

That's four years' growth, Helio? Good to know my hair grows absurdly fast, then. Only took three and a half years to get it down to my waist.

On the hair thing, I don't really know much for styling and what not, but keeping it relatively long and finding a way to perhaps just add some volume might help the androgyny.


By the way, hello again, LGBTA+ thread. It's been far too long. How are you all?

Lucky. I've been growing my hair for at least a year now and it's barely halfway down my shoulderblades.

I think that some layering might be able to evoke androgyny, but if it can it'd probably only work with the right kind of shape...

Well, what's your goal? Is it just to burn calories and shed fat? Is it to become stronger? Limber up? Because that'll effect whether you're going to actually even risk doing things that if you did them intensely could give you toned arms. Which is what I'm going to just assume is what you're actually worried about.

In general, developing one's connection with one's core and cardiovascular exercises aren't going to bulk up one's body

It's usually a safe bet to work on cardio - even if you do enough of it to notice, it shouldn't make your legs/arms/whatnot look particularly masculine (it's also the most likely development to actually be useful).

I bet you could get away with some weighted torso exercises, if you didn't do enough to display abs or pectorals (those aren't very androgynous) - maybe long-period fixed-resistance exercises could make the muscles strong and lean (hopefully without making you sick in the process)?

I should Google up some Pilates at some point...

[Asta Kask]

The clown fish are another interesting example of transgenderism in nature. Basing a sci-fi race on them might be cool:

In a group of clownfish, there is a strict dominance hierarchy. The largest and most aggressive female is found at the top. Only two clownfish, a male and a female, in a group reproduce through external fertilization. Clownfish are sequential hermaphrodites, meaning that they develop into males first, and when they mature, they become females. If the female clownfish is removed from the group, such as by death, one of the largest and most dominant males will become a female. The remaining males will move up a rank in the hierarchy.

[golentan]

So... is it weird that my first thought was "why didn't Nemo's dad become Nemo's mom partway through?"

On which note I can totally see Dory being involved in a cross species lesbian relationship.

<.<
>.>

I need to go write some slash fic now.

[KenderWizard]

So... is it weird that my first thought was "why didn't Nemo's dad become Nemo's mom partway through?"

On which note I can totally see Dory being involved in a cross species lesbian relationship.

<.<
>.>

I need to go write some slash fic now.

That would be so awesome!!

[Asta Kask]

So... is it weird that my first thought was "why didn't Nemo's dad become Nemo's mom partway through?"

From what I read, there's no turning back either... so if the old female returns, there will be a fight. No transmen among clownfish. I bet they exist in other species though...

[golentan]

From what I read, there's no turning back either... so if the old female returns, there will be a fight. No transmen among clownfish. I bet they exist in other species though...

As I recall, sheepheads do something similar (largest and most aggressive female becomes male). But... and here's the thing, they appear to do it purely to mess with the researcher's heads. While I was volunteering at the Monterey Aquarium, there was a story that the rule they had worked out was "largest female becomes male, only 1 male in an area, no backsies." Then the second largest female started to transition, and became male. Then the two males got on okay with each other (they fought more than they had, but they let each other live). Then the smaller one transitioned back to female.

[Mina Kobold]

So... is it weird that my first thought was "why didn't Nemo's dad become Nemo's mom partway through?"

On which note I can totally see Dory being involved in a cross species lesbian relationship.

<.<
>.>

I need to go write some slash fic now.

He was not exactly the biggest fish in the area, maybe one of them counted as the leader? Dory certainly would get my vote.

Or maybe it did happen and he is actually a trans guy!

...

I must find out!

*Dons snorkel and deerstalker and tries to reach Nemo's reef*

[Coidzor]

As I recall, sheepheads do something similar (largest and most aggressive female becomes male). But... and here's the thing, they appear to do it purely to mess with the researcher's heads. While I was volunteering at the Monterey Aquarium, there was a story that the rule they had worked out was "largest female becomes male, only 1 male in an area, no backsies." Then the second largest female started to transition, and became male. Then the two males got on okay with each other (they fought more than they had, but they let each other live). Then the smaller one transitioned back to female.

Trollface fish, you say? wiggy.

Jazzercising:

Spoiler

Show

It's usually a safe bet to work on cardio - even if you do enough of it to notice, it shouldn't make your legs/arms/whatnot look particularly masculine (it's also the most likely development to actually be useful).

I bet you could get away with some weighted torso exercises, if you didn't do enough to display abs or pectorals (those aren't very androgynous) - maybe long-period fixed-resistance exercises could make the muscles strong and lean (hopefully without making you sick in the process)?

I should Google up some Pilates at some point...

Cardio isn't really going to do that unless the person's biology is off norm to a significant extent in regards to building muscle mass. As for the rest, that's probably best not to discuss in-thread, but more recommend to speak to a professional about the concerns there, though, really, they're just as unreasonable concerns as the oft-cited fear of women that working out will make them all muscly and ugly.

Brofist Fistbro:

Spoiler

Show

Terrorist fist bump:

Spoiler

Show

It was when Barack and Michelle Obama shared a fist bump (I like plain fist bump better than "bro fist" because I'm not a "bro". How about "sibling bump"? ) and a news person described it as a "terrorist fist jab". In an impressive example of "wild overreaction".

Why not? You seem fairly well in line with being a bro already.

Silly unethical SF story.

Spoiler

Show

Losing man-parts

Spoiler

Show

I can see that losing a bit would be very distressing, and I would also be distressed if I suddenly got transformed into a man, but I think Serp's point was, often people see it as "losing a part" AND, crucially, not gaining a part. Like lady-parts are just an absence of man-parts. Which is often framed in a sexist way, like "He's lost a part, he is less than he was, so now he has dropped into the inferior female group.". (Biologically, all fetuses start female and some diverge to male, so it's the opposite. But that's just an interesting fact and doesn't actually mean anything important to worth or equality!)

Well, really, it's just like in discussing rules changes in the D&D subforum, people focus more on losing something they like to nerfing than on gaining something they're neutral at best towards. And unless someone was a transwoman, it's not exactly a good or desired thing to wake up with a vagina where previously there were external genitalia.

The entire premise of the story is silly though, because if you've designed a system where a rape victim's equilibrium can only be restored by them performing the same mode of intercourse on someone else as their rape, you've done goofed.

[Asta Kask]

Silly unethical SF story.

Spoiler

Show

The entire premise of the story is silly though, because if you've designed a system where a rape victim's equilibrium can only be restored by them performing the same mode of intercourse on someone else as their rape, you've done goofed.

Spoiler

Show

Why does that mean you've goofed? We have insects in real world who can only mate if their mate bites their head off. Biological systems aren't necessarily nice.

[KenderWizard]

Fist bump:

Spoiler

Show

Why not? You seem fairly well in line with being a bro already.

Because I'm not a dude? I like the idea of being best buddies that are like siblings, or having a bond comparable to a consanguinity with a group of other people, but - shocker, I'm sure! - I don't really like unnecessarily gendered language. I'd be flattered (if slightly confused) if someone went "You're like a brother to me" but I don't really like "We're all brothers here!" because it's like "What am I? Chopped liver? Are you leaving me out or saying I'm not a woman?"

Losing man parts:

Spoiler

Show

Well, really, it's just like in discussing rules changes in the D&D subforum, people focus more on losing something they like to nerfing than on gaining something they're neutral at best towards. And unless someone was a transwoman, it's not exactly a good or desired thing to wake up with a vagina where previously there were external genitalia.

The entire premise of the story is silly though, because if you've designed a system where a rape victim's equilibrium can only be restored by them performing the same mode of intercourse on someone else as their rape, you've done goofed.

Oh, absolutely. I totally get that if you had man-parts and you liked your man-parts, it'd be way beyond not cool if you randomly had them swapped for woman-parts. (And I feel the same way about my woman-parts.) I'm just saying sometimes people frame it as woman-parts being an absence of man-parts, rather than a different but equally people-parts set of parts, and that's a bit insulting, to everyone except cismen, really. And probably even to them in some way.

[Asta Kask]

KenderWizard, we leave you out because you have cooties. Sad, but true. (your boyfriend is probably infested too)

[golentan]

Oh, absolutely. I totally get that if you had man-parts and you liked your man-parts, it'd be way beyond not cool if you randomly had them swapped for woman-parts. (And I feel the same way about my woman-parts.)

Why does everyone go on about this? I have man parts. I like my man parts very much. We spend hours of fun together every week, and I've never had disphoria or what have you. And yet, if they vanished tomorrow to be replaced by an "ingress" I'd be annoyed only by 2 things. 1) They disappeared too late to save my last relationship, and 2) I'd have to buy new toys.

Why is everyone so attached to their body parts? I just don't get it.

[Asta Kask]

Because those who didn't care didn't breed?

[Mono Vertigo]

Don't know, I like my body parts. I'm used to them, they're used to me, and they do their job reasonably well. I'd be upset if they were replaced in any way by sole virtue of having to get used to them all over again.
Excepted the digestive system. I've seen college students work harder than it, and do it more constantly.

[Viera Champion]

So... is it weird that my first thought was "why didn't Nemo's dad become Nemo's mom partway through?"

On which note I can totally see Dory being involved in a cross species lesbian relationship.

<.<
>.>

I need to go write some slash fic now.

Darling, I have the blood of a fan fiction writer running through my veins, but I must resist. I cannot handle that level of fandom.

[golentan]

I'm just saying. Yeah, if you're straight up losing functionality, that's bad. I feel terrible every time another subsystem flatlines, because that's a capability I'm probably never going to get back. But if you can upgrade functionality, or retain it, or swap it for something different but similar, what's the problem. Cutting off a hand == bad. Cutting off a hand to replace it with another hand == neutral. Cutting off a hand to replace it with a cybernetic attachment == awesome.

[Mina Kobold]

KenderWizard, we leave you out because you have cooties. Sad, but true. (your boyfriend is probably infested too)

*Group hugs Asta with Kender*

ow everybody has cooties! Problem solved! :3

Why is everyone so attached to their body parts? I just don't get it.

It is quite peculiar, perhaps I should get rid of a few to see what might be cause of it?

*Imitates Cheshire cat*

Meo-

[SaintRidley]

X-parts

Spoiler

Show

Just tacking back to the summary of the original story that brought up the subject here.

The premise of change of sex through [het] intercourse is a very interesting premise on its own. The values of such a society seem like a ripe opportunity to explore issues that transpeople face in a new way.

I haven't read the story, but given the brief summary posted here, I'm not so sure the story presented does much for that. I would have to read the story, but I'm willing to take a stab and guess that the story doesn't explore quite all the issues it might need to, either.

Given the mechanism of change and the society's focus on virgin marriage, a number of issues come up that make for interesting stories and worldbuilding opportunities.

First, the focus on virgin marriage itself. Why so important? If it's to ensure someone hasn't changed before they marry and ensure "purity," this seems a weak idea. Unless the change only happens at the first time, it should be reasonably possible to change back by having sex again. And this renders the whole "purity" thing null, since nobody will be able to tell.

Unless your newly gained parts resemble identically the parts of the previous owner, which suggest that society might hold a registry of everybody's parts that even parents might know and that just makes things kind of squicky. Would be an interesting feature in that it would allow one to identify the previous partner by maintaining a meticulous database of who has whose parts at the moment so you know if your partner cheated (assuming monogamy). Really creepy invasion of privacy stuff enters the picture there, though.

Second, where does babby come from and how is babby formed? Assuming a change happens only on your first time, this is no issue. Assuiming a change every time, how does one become pregnant if reproductive systems move between bodies? Or does it happen that if, say, a couple manages to make a baby our m->f now carries the baby and if they have sex at a later point in the pregnancy our m->f->m no longer does, but our f->m->f now does?

Springing from that to a few points about genital wrongdoing, rapists become something of a conundrum here. First of all, a rapist who impregnates might then become pregnant with his/her own child as a result of the rape. Identifying rapists if there's a database becomes interesting. Tracing the owners of various parts through the chain of victims would require perfectly accurate reporting of the crime to pull off.

I don't really want to deal with that, so much, though. A more interesting question to me is the social values regarding gender that would result.

If the change is one time, what's the average age of first time? If it's in the teens, one might find social prejudices very similar to those which exist in reality. If it's later, do we enter an odd state where workplaces favor married men and unmarried women (and is their favoring for unmarried women predicated on the assumption that they will marry and become men, thereby enforcing patriarchy through marriage and possibly being even more strongly biased than reality in some ways)? Or does society have a more fluid understanding of the nature of sex and gender and treat men and women more fairly? Does the fact that (in all likelihood) the majority of people have walked in the shoes of either sex result in greater tolerance for differences?

If the change occurs every time one has sex, how does society view the male/female, masculine/feminine binaries? I would expect the binaries simply wouldn't occur to the society. Would gendered language exist when any person can change more or less at will? Would we see a society that aims toward strict control of sex, designating it as solely for reproductive purposes and thus limiting changes? What of those who do not abide by such social mores? What if a free love movement sprouted and people started changing their parts more often than socially acceptable?

Would the changing parts only function for het sex? That alone is a big question.

Given the above is just a sampling of things that come to mind when I consider what would need to be accounted for in a story where this was the reality and the unlikelihood of all of that being addressed, I'm not sure I would expect the story to treat the premise with all the respect it needs to be handled properly.

It's still interesting enough that it would be nice to see handled well, though.

[Lix Lorn]

Why does everyone go on about this? I have man parts. I like my man parts very much. We spend hours of fun together every week, and I've never had disphoria or what have you.

I have masses of dysphoria, but that won't stop me having the best kind of fun I can manage with what I've got.

Cutting off a hand == bad. Cutting off a hand to replace it with another hand == neutral. Cutting off a hand to replace it with a cybernetic attachment == awesome.

Have I mentioned I love you recently?

[Knaight]

I'm just saying. Yeah, if you're straight up losing functionality, that's bad. I feel terrible every time another subsystem flatlines, because that's a capability I'm probably never going to get back. But if you can upgrade functionality, or retain it, or swap it for something different but similar, what's the problem. Cutting off a hand == bad. Cutting off a hand to replace it with another hand == neutral. Cutting off a hand to replace it with a cybernetic attachment == awesome.

Some people would disagree, as their hand is connected to their sense of self in some way. That's really the whole general concept behind dysphoria, in that a certain physical state is connected to a sense of self, and that state differs from the actual physical state in some way.

[Coidzor]

Brofist Fistbro:

Spoiler

Show

Spoiler

Show

Fist bump:

Spoiler

Show

Because I'm not a dude? I like the idea of being best buddies that are like siblings, or having a bond comparable to a consanguinity with a group of other people, but - shocker, I'm sure! - I don't really like unnecessarily gendered language. I'd be flattered (if slightly confused) if someone went "You're like a brother to me" but I don't really like "We're all brothers here!" because it's like "What am I? Chopped liver? Are you leaving me out or saying I'm not a woman?"

Nah, you can totally be a dude, dude. Just like you can totally be a bro. You don't have external, male genitalia or anything, but that's hardly something we can hold against you.

Or should.

Spoiler

Show

QUOTE=KenderWizard;12536535]Losing man parts:

Spoiler

Show

Oh, absolutely. I totally get that if you had man-parts and you liked your man-parts, it'd be way beyond not cool if you randomly had them swapped for woman-parts. (And I feel the same way about my woman-parts.) I'm just saying sometimes people frame it as woman-parts being an absence of man-parts, rather than a different but equally people-parts set of parts, and that's a bit insulting, to everyone except cismen, really. And probably even to them in some way.

[/QUOTE]

Well the bit there is that it's kind of hard to not frame it like that when that's exactly what is happening.

Asta Kask:

Spoiler

Show

Spoiler

Show

Why does that mean you've goofed? We have insects in real world who can only mate if their mate bites their head off. Biological systems aren't necessarily nice.

Spoiler

Show

Did you... Did you forget that this was something that was done to humans by other humans in order to alter them to be that way? Because what you're saying doesn't make any sense in context.

Scientists can't be unethical because nature does horrible things all the time? wat That's like using the fact that lions eat the young of the previous male when they take over a pride as justification for serial killers or something.

golentan:

Spoiler

Show

I'm just saying. Yeah, if you're straight up losing functionality, that's bad. I feel terrible every time another subsystem flatlines, because that's a capability I'm probably never going to get back. But if you can upgrade functionality, or retain it, or swap it for something different but similar, what's the problem. Cutting off a hand == bad. Cutting off a hand to replace it with another hand == neutral. Cutting off a hand to replace it with a cybernetic attachment == awesome.

So... you see no difference between someone going into a clinic and willingly getting themselves cybernetically augmented and kidnapping a child and augmenting him against his will and mindraping him to boot?

Because that's kind of the difference between someone who is trans getting pretty sweet, years ahead of our time SRS and someone without dysphoria randomly waking up and finding that someone or something had just stolen their sexual identity and replaced it with something completely different.

To use a bit of understatement, well, consent is pretty damn important.

[Mono Vertigo]

Cutting off a hand to replace it with a cybernetic attachment == awesome.

For some, maybe. As for me, it's almost certain I would have a hard time with it at first, and maybe for the rest of my life too, simply because I'm not used to the cybernetic attachment. I don't know it. The rest of my body doesn't, either. Doesn't matter if it's more controllable, lasting and powerful than my current hand and that it bakes pizzas on top of that, it still would be made from a radically different material than the rest of my body, and it just wouldn't be the same.
Yeah, it's not entirely rational, it's more of a guts feeling than anything. And yet, there was a time, during puberty, when I felt my body was plain wrong (amusingly, it wasn't the organs/limbs obviously affected by hormones that bothered me, but just about everything else). I have a small idea of wanting to change body parts, it's just that today, I am finally in harmony with my body, and I cherish the familiarity too much to shatter it. I don't care if I'm getting more myopic over the years, I wouldn't replace my eyes ever, unless I got blind and the replacements were very, very cool.

[Astrella]

You are to me! ^^

Yay. :3

[COLOR="Navy"]Also, I finally updated my profile's gender. Why it was so difficult to do I don't know. *shrugs*

Oh, I missed this. Grats on it, even if it's not a huuuge step. *hugs*

Why does everyone go on about this? I have man parts. I like my man parts very much. We spend hours of fun together every week, and I've never had disphoria or what have you. And yet, if they vanished tomorrow to be replaced by an "ingress" I'd be annoyed only by 2 things. 1) They disappeared too late to save my last relationship, and 2) I'd have to buy new toys.

Why is everyone so attached to their body parts? I just don't get it.

Well, I guess you wouldn't know if you'd have disphoria / how you'd feel about if it happened though, no?

I.. ehm have fun with mine too, but I just try to externalize what they actually are / do other stuff with them...

[noparlpf]

Terrorist fist bump:

Spoiler

Show

It was when Barack and Michelle Obama shared a fist bump (I like plain fist bump better than "bro fist" because I'm not a "bro". How about "sibling bump"? ) and a news person described it as a "terrorist fist jab". In an impressive example of "wild overreaction".

Huh. I don't get how that got to be called that. I call it a fist bump.

So... is it weird that my first thought was "why didn't Nemo's dad become Nemo's mom partway through?"

On which note I can totally see Dory being involved in a cross species lesbian relationship.

<.<
>.>

I need to go write some slash fic now.

You're awesome.

As I recall, sheepheads do something similar (largest and most aggressive female becomes male). But... and here's the thing, they appear to do it purely to mess with the researcher's heads. While I was volunteering at the Monterey Aquarium, there was a story that the rule they had worked out was "largest female becomes male, only 1 male in an area, no backsies." Then the second largest female started to transition, and became male. Then the two males got on okay with each other (they fought more than they had, but they let each other live). Then the smaller one transitioned back to female.

"Sheepheads", or "trollfish"? I kind of want a tank of these now...

Fist bump:
Because I'm not a dude? I like the idea of being best buddies that are like siblings, or having a bond comparable to a consanguinity with a group of other people, but - shocker, I'm sure! - I don't really like unnecessarily gendered language. I'd be flattered (if slightly confused) if someone went "You're like a brother to me" but I don't really like "We're all brothers here!" because it's like "What am I? Chopped liver? Are you leaving me out or saying I'm not a woman?"

I dunno, even though I agree with you on the unnecessarily gendered language bit, I use "dude" and occasionally "bro" as nongendered words. I call all kinds of girls "dude" and some kinds of girls "bro". It's kind of like reclaiming. I'm slowly turning gendered words into nongendered words.
On the other hand, I was bothered the time my Gender Studies professor, the day the other boy-dude and the transboy-dude were absent, said, "We're all women here."

Losing man parts:
Oh, absolutely. I totally get that if you had man-parts and you liked your man-parts, it'd be way beyond not cool if you randomly had them swapped for woman-parts. (And I feel the same way about my woman-parts.) I'm just saying sometimes people frame it as woman-parts being an absence of man-parts, rather than a different but equally people-parts set of parts, and that's a bit insulting, to everyone except cismen, really. And probably even to them in some way.

I feel insulted by that misunderstanding because it makes it seem as though my penis is the default rather than a special alteration caused by my Y chromosome and the presence of testosterone in my developing fetus. My penis is special, darn it. It's not the default. The vagina and uterus are the default.

KenderWizard, we leave you out because you have cooties. Sad, but true. (your boyfriend is probably infested too)

I need to tell my advisor (Gender Studies prof.) that I want to write my thesis on how girls really do have cooties, just to see how she reacts.
(KenderWizard, I won't leave you out just because you have cooties. So many of my friends are girl-dudes that I had to go out and get inoculated. So I'm immune anyway.)

Don't know, I like my body parts. I'm used to them, they're used to me, and they do their job reasonably well. I'd be upset if they were replaced in any way by sole virtue of having to get used to them all over again.
Excepted the digestive system. I've seen college students work harder than it, and do it more constantly.

For some, maybe. As for me, it's almost certain I would have a hard time with it at first, and maybe for the rest of my life too, simply because I'm not used to the cybernetic attachment. I don't know it. The rest of my body doesn't, either. Doesn't matter if it's more controllable, lasting and powerful than my current hand and that it bakes pizzas on top of that, it still would be made from a radically different material than the rest of my body, and it just wouldn't be the same.
Yeah, it's not entirely rational, it's more of a guts feeling than anything. And yet, there was a time, during puberty, when I felt my body was plain wrong (amusingly, it wasn't the organs/limbs obviously affected by hormones that bothered me, but just about everything else). I have a small idea of wanting to change body parts, it's just that today, I am finally in harmony with my body, and I cherish the familiarity too much to shatter it. I don't care if I'm getting more myopic over the years, I wouldn't replace my eyes ever, unless I got blind and the replacements were very, very cool.

I agree with Musashi. I would feel weird in a female body not only because it's not "me" but also because it's strange and unfamiliar. I'm used to my boy-bits and boy-anatomy. Girl-bits and girl-anatomy would be very odd to get used to.
Same with cybernetic bits. I have this weird thing about losing body parts and I feel like I would have some kind of psychological rejection of a cybernetic bit. (Heck, even piercings weird me out for some reason, just because there's a bit of some alien material sticking through part of the body.)
On the other hand, if they (they=mad scientists) could take my eye-genes, modify them to make working eye-genes, and use those to grow working eyes, I would probably be okay with having my eyes replaced with those. (Because dang it, I hate being so nearsighted. I'm around a -4 in each eye.)
Maybe they should just find some way of making the body work the way it ought to without swapping bits for cyber-bits. I could use some properly functioning bits. I have two messed up wrists, and a bad back, not to mention my crooked rib from that time I broke it, and the slight limp I have sometimes from my broken ankle.

[Arachu]

Exercise

Spoiler

Show

Jazzercising:

Spoiler

Show

Cardio isn't really going to do that unless the person's biology is off norm to a significant extent in regards to building muscle mass. As for the rest, that's probably best not to discuss in-thread, but more recommend to speak to a professional about the concerns there, though, really, they're just as unreasonable concerns as the oft-cited fear of women that working out will make them all muscly and ugly.

True. I was mostly just speculating on the effects that different approaches could have (I should probably refrain from giving advice during a headache ).

Also, I have a bias for lean muscle - you can have a lot of it without looking bulky. I'm sure that it'd complement an androgynous look well, and provide some athleticism as a bonus.

Losing man parts

Spoiler

Show

Losing man parts:

Spoiler

Show

Oh, absolutely. I totally get that if you had man-parts and you liked your man-parts, it'd be way beyond not cool if you randomly had them swapped for woman-parts. (And I feel the same way about my woman-parts.) I'm just saying sometimes people frame it as woman-parts being an absence of man-parts, rather than a different but equally people-parts set of parts, and that's a bit insulting, to everyone except cismen, really. And probably even to them in some way.

I'd say that it should be offensive to cismen - it implies that they're only a set of genitals. In that view, if anything happens to them then the man attached to them is not a man. After getting a dose of Insane Troll Logic, it implies that anything "manly" implies the presence of male genitals, and that failing to meet specifications that were never particularly well-defined also makes you less of a man (or even a lack of man, which it explains is woman).

... Is it a bad sign when you stop getting surprised by being surprised at how much worse a concept was than you already thought?

Cybernetics

Spoiler

Show

For some, maybe. As for me, it's almost certain I would have a hard time with it at first, and maybe for the rest of my life too, simply because I'm not used to the cybernetic attachment. I don't know it. The rest of my body doesn't, either. Doesn't matter if it's more controllable, lasting and powerful than my current hand and that it bakes pizzas on top of that, it still would be made from a radically different material than the rest of my body, and it just wouldn't be the same.
Yeah, it's not entirely rational, it's more of a guts feeling than anything. And yet, there was a time, during puberty, when I felt my body was plain wrong (amusingly, it wasn't the organs/limbs obviously affected by hormones that bothered me, but just about everything else). I have a small idea of wanting to change body parts, it's just that today, I am finally in harmony with my body, and I cherish the familiarity too much to shatter it. I don't care if I'm getting more myopic over the years, I wouldn't replace my eyes ever, unless I got blind and the replacements were very, very cool.

I feel the opposite way - I thought that I had a poorly-coordinated normal hand, until I noticed the seam and found a badly-programmed Terminator ripoff underneath.

Of course, I can't exactly clone a replacement-replacement, so I'm trying to get the systems working reasonably well so I can make a glove I don't feel so bad looking at. :compromise:

Oh, I missed this. Grats on it, even if it's not a huuuge step. *hugs*

Actually, it's a bigger step than it really should be - aside from telling my friends and cousins that "I'm a chick" (), it's the first time I actually identified myself as anything other than male (I was tempted to write "no" in a gender I.D. once, but the school probably wouldn't have gotten it).

Oh, and I also remember you (I was in a hurry yesterday ).

Well, I guess you wouldn't know if you'd have disphoria / how you'd feel about if it happened though, no?

I.. ehm have fun with mine too, but I just try to externalize what they actually are / do other stuff with them...

I can't 'decide' whether I have dysphoria or not (I want female parts and I want the ones I have, at the same time )... But, when in Rome...

[Heliomance]

So I got the haircut done. It's quite subtle - an inch or two off to neaten the ends, little bit of layering, and the parting moved to the side. Looks good. Reactions on walking into GameSoc were amusing, ranging from "What the ****?!" to "Looks like GameSoc has a new woman now " to my personal favourite, "You're confusing my male-or-female-dar! "

Pics will follow at some point.

[golentan]

Well, I guess you wouldn't know if you'd have disphoria / how you'd feel about if it happened though, no?

I.. ehm have fun with mine too, but I just try to externalize what they actually are / do other stuff with them...

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have disphoria. I have memories of swapping bodies (and sexes) repeatedly in recent memory. I have dreams about being female (or male, or neuter, or alien). It occasionally plays a role in my fantasy life. I think I'd cope.

I have masses of dysphoria, but that won't stop me having the best kind of fun I can manage with what I've got.

Sounds like a healthy coping strategy to me. You should show me sometime, I could give a helping hand!

On which note:

Have I mentioned I love you recently?

*sweeps lix from her feet and plants a big, sloppy, three minute kiss*

Some people would disagree, as their hand is connected to their sense of self in some way. That's really the whole general concept behind dysphoria, in that a certain physical state is connected to a sense of self, and that state differs from the actual physical state in some way.

Yeah, but I don't get why... I'm not trying to make light for people who do find it problematic. But...

It's a pet peeve of mine when people generalize about issues as big as this. I get that it's a big issue. But I don't get why. So I can be supportive. But I will be scratching my head. And then the go too explanation everyone always seems to give is "well, ANYONE would feel bad if they got their parts switched," as what Kender said, and my response is pretty much always "says you!"

And speaking of my response...

So... you see no difference between someone going into a clinic and willingly getting themselves cybernetically augmented and kidnapping a child and augmenting him against his will and mindraping him to boot?

Because that's kind of the difference between someone who is trans getting pretty sweet, years ahead of our time SRS and someone without dysphoria randomly waking up and finding that someone or something had just stolen their sexual identity and replaced it with something completely different.

To use a bit of understatement, well, consent is pretty damn important.

Whoa! Back the HELL up! You just made about 2 dozen leaps in what you said, and did some serious strawman theater. I see no difference in principle between different methods of swapping or augmenting features, nor do I PERSONALLY see a reason why doing so in an otherwise non harmful way would be cause for me to be upset. At no point did I try to say it might not be bad for other people, merely that I did not understand why it would be (though I will admit my point may have been a bit unclear due to the fuzzy nature of such an argument). Nor did I advocate kidnap or rape of children, or try to stamp on trans peoples right to transition to what they view as a more functional and pleasing body.

Strawman me like that again and I will ignore you in the thread and merely send you an angry face PM.

[Coidzor]

Strawman me like that again and I will ignore you in the thread and merely send you an angry face PM.

You brought it all up in response to people being uncomfortable with being changed against their will. If I was just supposed to ignore the context of that, then you should've made that more clear rather than just sounding really bizarre which is in line with your usual communication style. Hell, it's in line with how half of the thread communicates, really, myself included.

I admit, the disturbing implications weren't so much, hence the incredulity coloring my response more than righteous indignation.

[SaintRidley]

Coid, I think the thing is golentan wasn't saying it was cool if anything got changed against anybody's will. I think golentan was arguing that getting changed is not necessarily a bad thing and, in the context of the change the story uses (part swapping, not part loss) that it is at worst utterly neutral because no real functionality is lost, only transmuted.

The means by which one undergoes change can be positive/neutral/negative depending on various factors, and I don't see anywhere golentan argues about means, let alone arguing that if, say we follow the example of the story and have a pre-op transman who is raped by another man and thus gains magic SRS that everything is hunky dory. It's still rape, and I don't think golentan is saying anything about the victim getting something they would have liked (SRS) out of the ordeal mitigating the fact that it was still a very bad thing that happened.


Heck, golentan doesn't seem to be bringing the issue up at all.

But if you can upgrade functionality, or retain it, or swap it for something different but similar, what's the problem. Cutting off a hand == bad. Cutting off a hand to replace it with another hand == neutral. Cutting off a hand to replace it with a cybernetic attachment == awesome.

It seems clear that the owner of the hand is implied to be the one required to make the decisions in the following examples and that the person cutting a hand off for nothing is making a bad decision, the person changing hands is making a strictly neutral decision and the person getting a cybernetic hand is, as far as golentan can see, getting a pretty sweet deal. Of their own free will.

Sorry to butt in on your argument, but I really don't see where you can criticize golentan on saying that people getting body modifications against their will is awesome when nothing of the sort was remotely even implied.

[Coidzor]

Coid, I think the thing is golentan wasn't saying it was cool if anything got changed against anybody's will. I think golentan was arguing that getting changed is not necessarily a bad thing and, in the context of the change the story uses (part swapping, not part loss) that it is at worst utterly neutral because no real functionality is lost, only transmuted.

Which doesn't matter because the crux of the matter is that these things are being done against one's will, so even if it's just fine and hunky dory it is a huge violation of one's body and rights by another party.

If set of people X wouldn't choose to do Y to themselves and find the idea uncomfortable and they then have Y done to themselves, the most likely conclusion is that Y was done to them without their consent.

golentan mostly appears to have said, no I didn't quite mean it in that way, so that's all irrelevant mush anyway and there doesn't appear to be much left on the topic to discuss.

Whoops, double post.

Edit button will clear that right up.