The Politics of Skyrim

[Eldan]

Just the empire, which has stood for thousands of years, and the lives of thousands of subjects. I'm sure history would remember the regime as "at least they tried" and not at all like the people that destroyed the empire. No biggie, right?

Just a point of lore here, but the Empire is far from thousands of year old.

Cuhlecain of Falkreath started his wars around 2E852 and captured the Imperial City and united Cyrodiil in 2E854. Tiber Septim took the throne from him just after the city was taken.

It then took 40 years of war to conquer the rest of Tamriel, so the Empire only became continental in 2E896 when Alinor surrendered. After that comes 3E0.

Uriel Septim VII died in 3E433. That officially ends the third era.

Skryim takes place in 4E201. So, very generally counting, from the beginning of the Tiber Wars to Skyrim, it's 678 years. For only 475 of that, there were Septim Emperors. And for only 433 of those, the Empire covered the continent, not counting civil wars.

The second Empire (the Reman Empire) only lasted for about 600 years, too, and for more than half of that, the effective rulers were not humans, but Akaviri.

The Alessian Empire (the first Empire) lasted quite a bit longer than that, though.

[Winter_Wolf]

I'd agree with this. However to paint Torygg as some sort of helpless dove as some want to do is a bit disingenuous.

I think Ulfric is hijacking the cause as a vehicle for personal aggrandizement and to push some of his own twisted beliefs. I don't however think that this means the original cause was completely wrong to begin with.

I'd say we're in agreement. Ulfric basically cheated by using the thu'um, but got away with it on the technicality that it's part of longstanding Nord tradition. How far ahead did he need to plan, since it's established he learned from the Greybeards but not that he's got Dragonborn blood? I vaguely recall that mortals have to spend a really long time to use Voice. An argument could be made for premeditated murder. But you know, basically I supported Ulfric's cause, just not the guy in charge.

[factotum]

I'd say we're in agreement. Ulfric basically cheated by using the thu'um, but got away with it on the technicality that it's part of longstanding Nord tradition.

I don't think he *did* get away with it--if he had, he'd be High King of Skyrim at the beginning of the game. The jarls didn't follow tradition and elect him as such *because* he used such a dishonorable way to win his duel with Torygg.

[Grim Portent]

I'd say we're in agreement. Ulfric basically cheated by using the thu'um, but got away with it on the technicality that it's part of longstanding Nord tradition. How far ahead did he need to plan, since it's established he learned from the Greybeards but not that he's got Dragonborn blood? I vaguely recall that mortals have to spend a really long time to use Voice. An argument could be made for premeditated murder. But you know, basically I supported Ulfric's cause, just not the guy in charge.

He didn't learn the Thu'um in order to win a duel more easily. When he was a boy he was a novice Greybeard, trying to follow their path of spiritual and religious meditation. He left when the Great War started and he felt it was his duty to try and defend the Empire.

[veti]

I think everybody is giving Torygg too little credit (and Ulfric too much). He may be young, but fighting is a young man's game. He was certainly seen as formidable, strong, and respectable enoung to be chosen by the jarls to be their High King. It is implied that Ulfric used the voice because he wouldn't have defeated Torygg otherwise. If Ulfric would have won anyways, why use the voice, a tactic that could be seen as dishonorable, and create the extra trouble?

I think everyone gives Torygg too much credit. The trouble is, all the first-hand information we get about him comes from a tainted source - Elisif's court, where no-one will say anything but flattering things about him for obvious reasons.

When we're told "Torygg would probably have listened to Ulfric", I'm thinking "oh yeah? I've had bosses who 'listened' like that". Torygg was an accomplished politician, skilled enough to win the throne, but nothing anyone says about him suggests a man of strength and conviction. He wasn't all that young - he was already high king at the time of the Markarth Incident, which was 24 years ago - but he'd never bothered to make the pilgrimage to High Hrothgar and learn anything from the Greybeards himself. (As Ulfric, and Baalgruf, that we know of, both had.)

After Elisif, Torygg's biggest fan must have been Sybille Stentor. And when you ask her why Torygg accepted Ulfric's challenge, she has this to say:

By Nord custom, once the challenge was issued in court, Torygg had no choice but to accept. Had he not, Ulfric would have had cause to call a new moot and a new vote for High King.

Reading through the emotion to get at the factual content here, we can see: Torygg could have refused the challenge, and all that would have followed would have been a new moot. Which is to say, the same end result as his losing the challenge. Which suggests, to me, that Torygg's acceptance of the challenge was nothing to do with honour or duty or pride: he thought he could win. If he had a stomach for open debate and "due process" and all those civilised imperial ways, he absolutely could have gone that way and he'd have had his chance to persuade the jarls to do it his way. But he didn't want that: he wanted to fight. I have no sympathy.

[Divayth Fyr]

Torygg was an accomplished politician, skilled enough to win the throne, but nothing anyone says about him suggests a man of strength and conviction. He wasn't all that young - he was already high king at the time of the Markarth Incident, which was 24 years ago

He was? Can't remember that being mentioned.

Reading through the emotion to get at the factual content here, we can see: Torygg could have refused the challenge, and all that would have followed would have been a new moot. Which is to say, the same end result as his losing the challenge. Which suggests, to me, that Torygg's acceptance of the challenge was nothing to do with honour or duty or pride: he thought he could win. If he had a stomach for open debate and "due process" and all those civilised imperial ways, he absolutely could have gone that way and he'd have had his chance to persuade the jarls to do it his way. But he didn't want that: he wanted to fight. I have no sympathy.

What little dialogue Torygg has in Sovngarde suggests he did care about honor and such values - while Ulfric openly claims that "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls."

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Kareeah, while the Thalmor ARE undeniably decades-patient, I don't think they'd whiff a victory if they could, instead, simply win. Reducing half a continent to molten glass or magical wastes or whatever the southern half of Hammerfell now looks like, and THEN fleeing, would be supreme dedication to whiffing.

Okay, fair point.

Besides - I'm making assumptions about ESO here and feel free to correct me - this portal on which your theory hinges was probably not what you'd call common knowledge as of the Second Era; we're hinging on the Redguards having completely forgotten about it; and the Bosmer, simply because they live in a freaking jungle, could very well have forgotten about it almost as quickly as the Men did. In our hypothetical Elder Scrolls VI, the Thalmor will of course have discovered this portal, but the reason they didn't use it in the war against Hammerfell could be that they just didn't know about it at the time.

Here's some background then: the ruins in question are Salas En (Alik'r Desert) and Ne Salas (Grahtwood).

It's been a while since I did the Dominion-side quest for this event (there's a quest for both factions involved), but near as I can tell what happens is this:

Lady Laurent is a member of the Mage's Guild and amateur archaeologist. She and her assistants are poking around in Salas En on the Covenant side. They accidentally activate the portal, her manservant wanders through and encounters a Dominion patrol. They, having just encountered a random Breton in the middle of Grahtwood where he has no business being, give chase and find the portal when he goes back through it. Both sides (Dominion and Covenant) then try to stage minor invasions with this newly-discovered passage into enemy territory before shutting the portal down.

And the local Bosmer might forget, but remember the Altmer have something of an addiction to paperwork. Which means the Thalmor have a record of it somewhere.

[Aux-Ash]

Eldan: Fair enough, my mistake.

he was already high king at the time of the Markarth Incident, which was 24 years ago - but he'd never bothered to make the pilgrimage to High Hrothgar and learn anything from the Greybeards himself.

Ah, no. That was Torygg's father Istlod. Torygg had been voted king mere months or perhaps just weeks before the duel with Ulfric.

Reading through the emotion to get at the factual content here, we can see: Torygg could have refused the challenge, and all that would have followed would have been a new moot. Which is to say, the same end result as his losing the challenge. Which suggests, to me, that Torygg's acceptance of the challenge was nothing to do with honour or duty or pride: he thought he could win. If he had a stomach for open debate and "due process" and all those civilised imperial ways, he absolutely could have gone that way and he'd have had his chance to persuade the jarls to do it his way. But he didn't want that: he wanted to fight. I have no sympathy.

I think you underestimate how huge impact honour can play. Even if you have a legal way to refuse a challenge, honour might very well dictate you answer it. If Torygg had refused the duel, he'd have shamed himself in front of Ulfric, his court, his wife and all of Skyrim. All of Skyrim would have seen him as a coward and a weakling and they'd never accept him as king after that. Answering was the only honourable way to go forward. Anything else would have been to give up his position.
I'd even hazard a guess that has Torygg done just that, he'd be forced to vote Ulfric as high king after that since "if he didn't think he was in the right then why did he refuse the challenge?"

You might be right that Torygg may have wanted to fight. It's possible. But refusing it, while probably legal, was in matters of honour an impossibility.

And as we see... honour is an important facet of Skyrim politics. As it's precisely why Ulfric hasn't been elected High King (or even called a high moot, which is his right). All his opponents consider him rather dishonourable.
It's also rather telling that when Ulfric and his allies defend the duel, they do so on the grounds that it was permissable or neccessary. Not that it was honourable.

[Winter_Wolf]

I don't think he *did* get away with it--if he had, he'd be High King of Skyrim at the beginning of the game. The jarls didn't follow tradition and elect him as such *because* he used such a dishonorable way to win his duel with Torygg.

Fair enough; guess I figured because he wasn't executed on the spot, he got away with it. Just as well, everyone was probably shocked, unsure what the protocol was (your king was murdered in an accepted duel...hm this was not covered in training), and Roggvir lost his head over it. Actually, could someone refresh me, did Ulfric really just stroll out of the city gates afterward or did he carve a bit of a path to it? It's been ages since I've even blinked in the direction of Skyrim's civil war or main quest.

He didn't learn the Thu'um in order to win a duel more easily. When he was a boy he was a novice Greybeard, trying to follow their path of spiritual and religious meditation. He left when the Great War started and he felt it was his duty to try and defend the Empire.

Well, there I go, then. Was kind of hazy on the whole Ulfric tried to hang with the Greybeards but in the end didn't. Didn't seem to have the temperament for it, did he? Pretty gloomy bunch, them.

[Aux-Ash]

Actually, could someone refresh me, did Ulfric really just stroll out of the city gates afterward or did he carve a bit of a path to it? It's been ages since I've even blinked in the direction of Skyrim's civil war or main quest.

My understanding is that he essentially snuck out of the city. Roggvir opened the gates for him, against the wishes of the Solitude court (which warrants the question why the gates were closed in the first place, but I can find no explanation for this. It could be normal procedure). I doubt there was a bloodbath involved however, we'd have learned of it if there was.

[factotum]

(which warrants the question why the gates were closed in the first place, but I can find no explanation for this. It could be normal procedure).

Surely it could be as simple as a message being sent to the gate guards "Ulfric just killed the High King, shut the gates and make sure he doesn't leave"?

[Aeson]

Surely it could be as simple as a message being sent to the gate guards "Ulfric just killed the High King, shut the gates and make sure he doesn't leave"?

I'd tend to expect that Ulfric left the palace and city as rapidly as he could manage; it's better for him to get out quickly, as that lessens the chances that the guards and people he encounters will know what he's done and why he's leaving, and so are less likely to oppose his passage. Plus, among the people in the palace there's probably some degree of confusion about what to do about what has happened, a bit of shock and the resultant organizational paralysis, and maybe even a bit of confusion over what exactly has happened among people who weren't in the room where Ulfric killed the High King. Most likely, in my opinion, some kind of general alarm went up (e.g. bells ringing or horns blowing), and the gates were sealed in response to that. Later, when things are more under control and the people up at the palace are more organized, they can send out messengers with specifics about the situation to the guards at the gate, but early on it's just important that they get the gates closed fast, sealing Ulfric within the city; they can hunt him down later, and they also want a little bit of time to figure out what they're going to do about informing the public that the High King is dead and that Ulfric killed him so that they can present a unified front to the public and keep things relatively calm while decisions about who will succeed Torygg and how are made. Ulfric shows up at the gates after the general alarm seals the gates but before any specifics have gone out to at least the gate guards and demands to be let out, and the gate guards decide that permitting the passage of an important, influential, and respected nobleman who probably has the connections to ruin their careers (bad assignments, denied promotions, etc) is less bad for them than whatever is going to happen when their superiors find out that they didn't quite completely seal the city when the general alarm went up. This probably wouldn't have been the worst decision they could make, had preventing Ulfric from departing the city not been the reason that the gates were to be sealed, but since the goal of sealing the gates was preventing Ulfric's escape they get into a lot of hot water over the incident.

An alternative to there being any kind of alarm raised (messengers, horns, bells, rockets, magic, whatever) is that the killing of the High King occurred late in the day and the city gates were closed for the night. Not having played Skyrim, I can't say if this is the case or not within the game, but in the real world it wasn't exactly abnormal for the gates of walled cities to normally be closed after a certain time of night and only reopened at some point in the morning, unless someone with enough importance came by to have the gates opened at an unusual hour; it's still not exactly unusual for places like international border crossings to be open only between certain times of the day. The gate guard gets into a lot of trouble because he let out the High King's killer, even though under normal circumstances letting a high-ranking nobleman like Ulfric leave the city after the gates were closed to the public wouldn't have caused much of an issue and the guy had no real way of knowing what Ulfric had done.

[Crow]

What shout did Ulfric use to "shout (Torygg) apart"?

Any guesses? My FusRohDah never shouted anyone apart.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

What shout did Ulfric use to "shout (Torygg) apart"?

Any guesses? My FusRohDah never shouted anyone apart.

It was in fact Unrelenting Force. (He only has two; that and the Disarm Shout.) Talk to the man directly on the subject and he says:

"Not entirely true, though not entirely false either. Any Nord can learn the Way of the Voice by studying with the Greybeards, given enough ambition and dedication. My shouting Torygg to the ground proved he had neither. However, it was my sword piercing his heart that killed him.

So, he just knocked Torygg over. The 'shouting him to pieces' bit seems to be exaggeration after the fact.

[Winter_Wolf]

"Shouted him to pieces!" Makes for a more dramatic story than "shouted and knocked him down, then ran him through with a blade." Plus if you've ever been subjected to the game "telephone" you know that accuracy deteriorates quite rapidly in retelling. A lot of the npcs seem to enjoy hyperbole. Just like a lot of people in real life.

Aside: Not relevant to Ulfric but isn't there some Black Book of Hermaerus Mora that turns fus ro dah into a literal shouting to pieces power (disintegration effect)? I suspect because at least a couple people said, "damn I wanna shout someone to pieces, make it happen!"

[Eldan]

It wouldn't be entirely out of place in the fluff. There's some old nordic chieftains mentioned who did stuff like explode city walls with their voice during sieges.

[The_Jackal]

I'd say we're in agreement. Ulfric basically cheated by using the thu'um, but got away with it on the technicality that it's part of longstanding Nord tradition. How far ahead did he need to plan, since it's established he learned from the Greybeards but not that he's got Dragonborn blood? I vaguely recall that mortals have to spend a really long time to use Voice. An argument could be made for premeditated murder. But you know, basically I supported Ulfric's cause, just not the guy in charge.

I don't understand how using the shout is tantamount to cheating. Is there an according-to-hoyle rulebook for Nord duelling? Somehow I very much doubt that's the case, and the people leveling the 'cheating' accusation at Ulfric are merely trying to discredit his victory, since they can't very well proclaim that Torygg won the duel. My attitude is that when you accepted a duel to the death, you're pretty much in 'no holds barred' territory, and you can't very complain that 'the manner in which I was killed wasn't gentlemanly'.

[druid91]

I don't understand how using the shout is tantamount to cheating. Is there an according-to-hoyle rulebook for Nord duelling? Somehow I very much doubt that's the case, and the people leveling the 'cheating' accusation at Ulfric are merely trying to discredit his victory, since they can't very well proclaim that Torygg won the duel. My attitude is that when you accepted a duel to the death, you're pretty much in 'no holds barred' territory, and you can't very complain that 'the manner in which I was killed wasn't gentlemanly'.

Well the nords are generally very grumpy when it comes to magic. The issue here is that the Thu'um is their magic. It's not about being a milk drinking dress wearing southerner. It's about being awesome enough that just you YELLING at someone can physically harm them.

[Crow]

Words hurt, you guys.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I don't understand how using the shout is tantamount to cheating. Is there an according-to-hoyle rulebook for Nord duelling? Somehow I very much doubt that's the case, and the people leveling the 'cheating' accusation at Ulfric are merely trying to discredit his victory, since they can't very well proclaim that Torygg won the duel. My attitude is that when you accepted a duel to the death, you're pretty much in 'no holds barred' territory, and you can't very complain that 'the manner in which I was killed wasn't gentlemanly'.

That depends on the terms of the duel; agreeing to a duel with swords and then using a pistol would be cheating, duel to the death or not. The 'to the death' part just precludes a rematch if that happens.

Ulfric used something Torygg had no access to and no reasonable way of getting access to in time for their fight. And let's not forget, the Greybeards he learned that Shout from teach that the Voice should only be used to praise the gods and for True Need. Beating someone half his level of experience in a fight he might have been able to win with just his sword is neither.

[The_Jackal]

Well the nords are generally very grumpy when it comes to magic. The issue here is that the Thu'um is their magic. It's not about being a milk drinking dress wearing southerner. It's about being awesome enough that just you YELLING at someone can physically harm them.

Precisely, also, isn't their King supposed to be descended from the Dragonborn?

That depends on the terms of the duel; agreeing to a duel with swords and then using a pistol would be cheating, duel to the death or not. The 'to the death' part just precludes a rematch if that happens.

Ulfric used something Torygg had no access to and no reasonable way of getting access to in time for their fight. And let's not forget, the Greybeards he learned that Shout from teach that the Voice should only be used to praise the gods and for True Need. Beating someone half his level of experience in a fight he might have been able to win with just his sword is neither.

Which would make sense if you're talking about Ulfric using a cannon or a horse or something, but we're talking about the result of skill and talent. How that's different from just being a better fighter than him is escaping me, somewhat. Ulfric didn't challenge Torygg with the condition that he'd beat him with one arm tied behind is back. Also, what the Greybeards teach isn't exactly what I would call practical or canonical or even useful. If you're going to agree to the Greybeards way of doing things, then you sit back and let Alduin devour Tamriel. So, if it's all the same to you, I'm not going to taking their philosophy that seriously.

[veti]

And let's not forget, the Greybeards he learned that Shout from teach that the Voice should only be used to praise the gods and for True Need.

Which rather raises the question, why all the Shouts are so damn' destructive? What's the draconic for "Flowers/Scent/Pretty", or "Love/Peace/Harmony", or even "Gods/Truth/Worship"? Instead, it's all "force" this and "fire" that and "rend the soul from the body" of the other.

[Mando Knight]

Precisely, also, isn't their King supposed to be descended from the Dragonborn?

The Emperors ruling from Cyrodiil were Dragonborn (blessed by Akatosh through his covenant with St. Alessia in the First Era), not the High Kings of Skyrim, and that ended with the Oblivion Crisis, around two hundred years before Ulfric slew Torygg (as the events of Oblivion mark the transition from the Third Era into the Fourth).

As shown by Pelagius "The Mad" Septim, there were those who held both titles at least during the Third Era, but the title of Skyrim's High King is not involved with Akatosh's Dragonborn covenant.

[factotum]

Which rather raises the question, why all the Shouts are so damn' destructive? What's the draconic for "Flowers/Scent/Pretty", or "Love/Peace/Harmony", or even "Gods/Truth/Worship"? Instead, it's all "force" this and "fire" that and "rend the soul from the body" of the other.

Er...dragons, remember? The Greybeards didn't invent the language or the Thu'um, they got it from bloody great lizards who probably aren't much into philosophical discussions with what were their slaves at the time it was learned.

[Formless Entity]

Here's a very simple argument for you: the Imperials tried to take your head off for crossing a border... and because an officer was like "well yeah they're not on the list but I want this over with so I can take my Mandatory Imperium Breaktime, so kill them." I dunno about you but that didn't get on MY good side.

So you are saying that the cause of the Imperials is bad because of one crooked officer?

By that logic we should discount all of the stormcloaks because a sizeable portion of them are racist.

[Formless Entity]

Talos is real, and actually is a god.

Where is there evidence of Talos actually being a god?

Last I checked, the only aedra we ever have proof of existing in the games is Akatosh because of the oblivion crisis.

[Formless Entity]

Personally I think that ideally there should be a coalition of the different provinces and have them all be independent to a great degree. With no province having more influence than the other.

Currently however, the main issue is the issue of the Thalmor. Disregarding the issue of whether Talos is truly an Aedra or not, it is still wrong to deny someone's autonomy by denying that person their choice to religion.

More so their ideology that the high elves are the closest relation to the Ehlnofey is both incorrect and dangerous.

Ideally the oppressive Thalmor government should be overthrown and let the high elves be free to govern again.

From their a collation could be formed of the different provinces to try to prevent further conflict, sort of like the league of nations or the UN but this time it would ideally work.

[Crow]

Where is there evidence of Talos actually being a god?

Last I checked, the only aedra we ever have proof of existing in the games is Akatosh because of the oblivion crisis.

For all intents and purposes, if you are living in the game world and worshiping Talos, you receive all the benefits you would expect from worshiping any of the other gods; One example is blessings that actually have tangible results.

[Aux-Ash]

I don't understand how using the shout is tantamount to cheating. Is there an according-to-hoyle rulebook for Nord duelling? Somehow I very much doubt that's the case, and the people leveling the 'cheating' accusation at Ulfric are merely trying to discredit his victory, since they can't very well proclaim that Torygg won the duel. My attitude is that when you accepted a duel to the death, you're pretty much in 'no holds barred' territory, and you can't very complain that 'the manner in which I was killed wasn't gentlemanly'.

I think you're right, they are trying to discredit Ulfric's victory. They want to paint Ulfric as a man without honour, who won only through treachery. Partly because this discredits him in the eyes of the people most likely to side with him, traditional nord warriors. The imperials may not be the palatable choice to these nords, given their association with the White-Gold concordat, but they can't very well side with someone without honour. Now can they?

I think there's also a side that there's plenty of nords genuinely disgusted with Ulfric's behaviour, his shouting rendering Torygg not just outmatched but defenceless. After all, if you're going to kill a defenceless man why even bother with a duel? Why not cut his throat in his sleep? At least that'd be more honest than bothering with all the pretense of all this being honourable (read: fair).

Of course... General Tullius is hardly a honourable man either. Makes the matter a bit... muddled.

[Eldan]

Where is there evidence of Talos actually being a god?

Last I checked, the only aedra we ever have proof of existing in the games is Akatosh because of the oblivion crisis.

He shows up in MOrrowind in person, for a bit.