Is this broken? mark I

[Doomboy911]

Alright the basic idea of this thread is that people post something asking whether or not this is broken.

I'll begin is heroes of horrors broken?

[Mystic Muse]

Alright the basic idea of this thread is that people post something asking whether or not this is broken.

I'll begin is heroes of horrors broken?

You'll have to be more specific. There are things in there that are considered broken such as the tainted scholar or archivist, but there are other things in there that are considered pretty much fine. There are very few entire books that are broken.

Also, do you mean broken as in "overpowered" or broken as in "Needs to be fixed."? Because under the second option, Truenamer is broken, but probably doesn't fall under the first option unless you go for gate abuse.

[Claudius Maximus]

Soft Serve's got it right. What are you looking at in particular?

In any case, some thoughts on Heroes of Horror:

Dread Necromancer might seem overpowered at first, but isn't actually broken when compared to other casters. It's about as good as a Bard or Warblade (Tier 3 according to JaronK). The major "trick" with them is to get Tomb-Tainted Soul on themselves or on other party members for infinite out-of-combat healing. Even this isn't actually a big deal though.

Archivist is one of the strongest classes in the entire game. Be careful with it. If it's in, the DM needs to have a clear idea of how available non-cleric spells are, and which questionable lists are open to the class.

Taint is broken in half.

Pact of Return is a very powerful spell, and can be a bit hard to deal with as a DM, so I'd call it problematic. Take a look at it and think about the boundaries you'd use if it's allowed.

Most of the rest, like Oneiromancy and Dread Witch and the like are fine. I can't remember much else that's really problematic.

[Cruiser1]

Pact of Return is a very powerful spell, and can be a bit hard to deal with as a DM, so I'd call it problematic. Take a look at it and think about the boundaries you'd use if it's allowed.

Pact of Return allows free True Resurrections after arbitrary deaths! Nobody has to pay any gold or lose XP. Suppose a teammate dies. Cast Revenance (SpC) on them, so they're temporarily alive without penalty, but only for a few rounds. Use Bracelets of Spellsharing (DMG2) on you and the teammate. Cast Pact of Return, with the very specific condition of "come back to life if you're killed by my mace bashing through your skull". Because of the Bracelets that spell with range "personal" and target "you" affects your teammate. Now kill your teammate with your mace! They'll die and come back for real permanently, without either death making them lose a level.

In summary, free True Resurrection for a 7th level spell, a 4th level spell, and the one time purchase price of the Bracelets. Note a simpler condition is "come back to life if you're killed by the Revenance spell expiring", however this way you don't have to wait, and besides who hasn't wanted to intentionally kill a partymate?

[BillyBobJoe]

Or you could do the same thing with revivify.

[Doomboy911]

By broken I mean is it overpowered.

[Greenish]

By broken I mean is it overpowered.

Compared to what?

[Cruiser1]

Or you could do the same thing with revivify.

Revivify (SpC) costs 1000 gold to cast. If you want a 100% free True Resurrection, you need to use an alternate spell, such as Pact of Return.

[Bovine Colonel]

By broken I mean is it overpowered.

Do properly played clerics count? Druids? Wizards? Archivists? Erudites Sorcerers? Favoured Souls? How about properly built Fighter/Barbarians?

[Flickerdart]

Heroes of Horror is only 1.8 pounds. By comparison, the DMG is a hefty 2.6 pounds, making it by far the more powerful book.

[Silva Stormrage]

Revivify (SpC) costs 1000 gold to cast. If you want a 100% free True Resurrection, you need to use an alternate spell, such as Pact of Return.

Psychic Revivify has an xp cost of 100 so it could be used too.

[Jude_H]

By broken I mean is it overpowered.

Dusk Giant, Tainted Scholar and Subverted Psion are worth keeping an eye on.

The biggest fear you should have for that book is its proportion of generic Wayne England monster illustrations.

[enderlord99]

Heroes of Horror is only 1.8 pounds. By comparison, the DMG is a hefty 2.6 pounds, making it by far the more powerful book.

Lord of the Rings, pre-editing.

[Calimehter]

Heroes of Horror is only 1.8 pounds. By comparison, the DMG is a hefty 2.6 pounds, making it by far the more powerful book.

Eh, its not the base damage of the book that makes it overpowered. Its the feat that the wielder of the book has taken. ;)

[Fox Box Socks]

Heroes of Horror is only 1.8 pounds. By comparison, the DMG is a hefty 2.6 pounds, making it by far the more powerful book.

I'm sigging this, as I can't stop laughing at it.

Also, "overpowered" is in the eye of the beholder. Archivist has enough mojo to sit at the cool kids' table with the rest of the prepared casters, but the DM needs to do no more work countering it than he has to with any other Tier 1.

Taint is pretty busted, though.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

So regarding Heroes of Horror, 'taint busted.

I think the better question is "What in [x] is broken/overpowered?" The only things I hear about dragonlance material are some crazy kobold stuff and occasionally the war mage blasty PrC. The only things I hear about Serpent Kingdoms are the Sarrukh (however it's spelled) and venomfire. So how can we extract the OP stuff from all the other books?

And maybe the even better question is, in a book which is infamous for cheesy crap, what quality mechanics/fluff is in there?

[Grendus]

Agreed on Heroes of Horror. Archivist is powerful, though no more so than the other T1's (it's expanded spell selection is mitigated by DM control of what spells he can have, massive redundancy, and higher MAD), but the Dread Necromancer is perfectly fine for your average game, as are most of the PrC's with the exception of Tainted Scholar.

Next book: Races of Destiny. It's not broken on the same level as, say, Incantatrix, but does anyone else think this makes humans, already one of the most flexible races in the game, even more powerful?

[Calimehter]

Races of Destiny:

I've heard bad things about Locate City and Delay Death when used in certain combos with other things. Others could probably comment with more expertise on that.

I suppose making Decipher Script useful could be considered "broken" by frustrated PCs who dumped the skill.

[Socratov]

well, with certain feats you can turn locate city into the wightocalypse. You make sure you can add an elemental descriptor to locate city, then add damage, then ad fell drain. Cast the metamagiced spell and bam you have a wight for every commonner in a 20(?) mile radius. However, the tactic is unplayable because it won't help you with an advernture (though in sandbox games it is still fun), and more thought of as a theoretical optimization excercise.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Is Core broken?

[enderlord99]

Is Core broken?

There's a book entitled "Core?"

[mootoall]

Is Core broken?

Within the three core books are all the broken you'll ever need, on both ends of the spectrum.

[FMArthur]

well, with certain feats you can turn locate city into the wightocalypse. You make sure you can add an elemental descriptor to locate city, then add damage, then ad fell drain. Cast the metamagiced spell and bam you have a wight for every commonner in a 20(?) mile radius. However, the tactic is unplayable because it won't help you with an advernture (though in sandbox games it is still fun), and more thought of as a theoretical optimization excercise.

Pretty sure that Fell Drain (and Fell Frighten) is from Libris Mortis.

On HoH: I really, really like the book. But yes, I do think overall it has too much broken/game disrupting content. If you must take an all-or-nothing stance on book allowance, I would reluctantly recommend to leave it out of the game.

• Taint as a system is clunky, has too much uncertainty and is utterly bizarre in concept, not to mention incredibly and unfairly impactful on even normal, heroic play.
• Tainted Scholar is Tainted Scholar.
• Dread Necromancer is fairly balanced and interesting, but can promote a style of play that makes combat six hours long (organize your damned critters' turns, please ) and needs special consideration for campaign construction because of the style of 'community-interaction' greatly encouraged by the class.
• Archivist is just another tier 1 but has a particularly high power ceiling.
• Dread Witch is a lovable addition to the game though, and sort of necessary for Enchanters and Enchanter-esques to remain relevant later on.
• I don't actually remember what the oneiromancy (dream-related spellcasting) rules were, but IIRC they're also in HoH, so check it out.

[Fox Box Socks]

Is Core broken?

Define "broken". There aren't a whole bunch of infinte damage loops or tier 0 classes running around, but the Player's Handbook probably has the largest number of options that are well above the acceptable power curve out of any book in 3.X.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Define "broken".

Anything that could make a game unfun or unplayable.

[Fox Box Socks]

Anything that could make a game unfun or unplayable.

Unplayable? No. Unfun? Absolutely.

[Z3ro]

Anything that could make a game unfun or unplayable.

Based on that definition everything is broken, especially players.

[tonberrian]

Based on that definition everything is broken, especially players.

Nerf players. Nerf DMs. Buff dice.

[Doomboy911]

Ok broken is where someone can use some of the basic stuff from the book and take on any encounter without batting an eye.

[Flickerdart]

Ok broken is where someone can use some of the basic stuff from the book and take on any encounter without batting an eye.

Any encounter? You encounter Ao, the Lady of Pain, Pun-Pun, the true form of Asmodeus, and they turn you into soup as a free action. Therefore, nothing is broken?