What is the lamest prestige class concept (to you)

[Sith_Happens]

Renegade Mastermaker is a ten level prestige class meant for Artificers that turns you into a Warforged bit by bit. While in isolation that is incredibly cool, in practice if you want to play a Warforged... then you probably already are, because it's already a player race.

[Denver]

Dwarven Defender. Their entire combat style focuses on not moving. I don't care if you live in tunnels; not meting able to advance or fall back is a very good way to die.

Second'd. Though, they do get the ability to move at the 8th level... *five* feet per round.

--

I'll throw out the Highland Stalker, from Complete Adventurer. It sounds like it should be useful, but when you get down to it, it is not.

It requires you take have 8 ranks in Listen, Spot, and Survival. It also requires the ability to deal Sneak Attack or Skirmish damage, and it requires you to take the feat Track.

Rangers get Track for free - but no inherent Sneak Attack or Skirmish, so you'd have to multi-class to get to it. You could try to get to the prestige class as a Rogue, but survival being a cross-class skill, it'd take a few levels to get there, unless you multi-class. Finally, you could get the Prestige Class from Scout.

And when you take the class, what do you get? More Skirmish! Which you get as a Scout. Swift Tracker! Which you get as a Ranger. Camouflage! Which you get as a Ranger. You gain fewer skill points per level! Your Class-Skill list is smaller than any of the contributing classes. Aside from gaining Mountain Stride and Sure-footed, there is no reason to take this prestige class that taking Scout or Ranger wouldn't give.

[Extra Anchovies]

Second'd. Though, they do get the ability to move at the 8th level... *five* feet per round.

--

I'll throw out the Highland Stalker, from Complete Adventurer. It sounds like it should be useful, but when you get down to it, it is not.

It requires you take have 8 ranks in Listen, Spot, and Survival. It also requires the ability to deal Sneak Attack or Skirmish damage, and it requires you to take the feat Track.

Rangers get Track for free - but no inherent Sneak Attack or Skirmish, so you'd have to multi-class to get to it. You could try to get to the prestige class as a Rogue, but survival being a cross-class skill, it'd take a few levels to get there, unless you multi-class. Finally, you could get the Prestige Class from Scout.

And when you take the class, what do you get? More Skirmish! Which you get as a Scout. Swift Tracker! Which you get as a Ranger. Camouflage! Which you get as a Ranger. You gain fewer skill points per level! Your Class-Skill list is smaller than any of the contributing classes. Aside from gaining Mountain Stride and Sure-footed, there is no reason to take this prestige class that taking Scout or Ranger wouldn't give.

Ranger wouldn't give Skirmish progression. Scout wouldn't get full BAB or good Fortitude save. Also, why can't a character just, you know, take track as one of their normal feats to meet the prereq? It's not like we need to make every feat a bonus feat, especially on the Scout, which isn't a hugely feat-starved class. Of course, the full BAB and one-feat tax aren't really worth it, since you trade away more from Scout than you get back from Highland Stalker, and Ranger entry is just as much of a drop down. A swift hunter could do with a two-level dip for Mountain Stride and the +1d6 skirmish, though (this would let them end up with +6d6/+4 instead of +5d6/+5 by 20th level).

[Fax Celestis]

Second'd. Though, they do get the ability to move at the 8th level... *five* feet per round.

--

I'll throw out the Highland Stalker, from Complete Adventurer. It sounds like it should be useful, but when you get down to it, it is not.

It requires you take have 8 ranks in Listen, Spot, and Survival. It also requires the ability to deal Sneak Attack or Skirmish damage, and it requires you to take the feat Track.

Rangers get Track for free - but no inherent Sneak Attack or Skirmish, so you'd have to multi-class to get to it. You could try to get to the prestige class as a Rogue, but survival being a cross-class skill, it'd take a few levels to get there, unless you multi-class. Finally, you could get the Prestige Class from Scout.

And when you take the class, what do you get? More Skirmish! Which you get as a Scout. Swift Tracker! Which you get as a Ranger. Camouflage! Which you get as a Ranger. You gain fewer skill points per level! Your Class-Skill list is smaller than any of the contributing classes. Aside from gaining Mountain Stride and Sure-footed, there is no reason to take this prestige class that taking Scout or Ranger wouldn't give.

Wilderness Rogue who takes the Track feat says hello.

[Anxe]

Second'd. Though, they do get the ability to move at the 8th level... *five* feet per round.

--

I'll throw out the Highland Stalker, from Complete Adventurer. It sounds like it should be useful, but when you get down to it, it is not.

It requires you take have 8 ranks in Listen, Spot, and Survival. It also requires the ability to deal Sneak Attack or Skirmish damage, and it requires you to take the feat Track.

Rangers get Track for free - but no inherent Sneak Attack or Skirmish, so you'd have to multi-class to get to it. You could try to get to the prestige class as a Rogue, but survival being a cross-class skill, it'd take a few levels to get there, unless you multi-class. Finally, you could get the Prestige Class from Scout.

And when you take the class, what do you get? More Skirmish! Which you get as a Scout. Swift Tracker! Which you get as a Ranger. Camouflage! Which you get as a Ranger. You gain fewer skill points per level! Your Class-Skill list is smaller than any of the contributing classes. Aside from gaining Mountain Stride and Sure-footed, there is no reason to take this prestige class that taking Scout or Ranger wouldn't give.

I was gonna mention Highland Stalker too, but at one point I realized that the class was intended for PCs that existed prior to the release of Complete Adventurer. If you are a Ranger who wanted to have Skrimish after Skirmish became a thing, but didn't want to lower your BAB too much, Highland Stalker is the class for you to take.

[Bloody Peasant!]

Blackguard is alright, except for the weird hide requirement. Because everyone knows that the first thing fallen paladins do is hide from stuff. Hiding from things is an integral step of the process to bind one's soul to a fiend as well!

Actually I think that makes perfect sense. What else is a fallen paladin supposed to do about enemies with a higher movement speed?

[Bloody Peasant!]

All the prestige classes that slowly turn you undead (pale master, bone night, etc). I wouldn't mind so much if it weren't for the fact that they make it extremely hard to find an undead-themed prestige class that's viable for an undead character. Also, necropolitan is a thing.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Gray Guard: "Let's have a class where players don't have have to follow all those silly code of conduct requirements they don't care about anyway and make the paladin something besides a fighter with minimal cleric casting so they can be 'gritty, realistic heroes'."


....f*** you Gray Guard. I acknowledge you exist only to curse that very fact. If you want to play a paladin then play a paladin, not his 'morally ambiguous' cousin that is basically PC-viable totally-not-blackguards endorsed by churches that should never endorse them. Paladins are heroes, so act like it.

[Bloody Peasant!]

Gray Guard: "Let's have a class where players don't have have to follow all those silly code of conduct requirements they don't care about anyway and make the paladin something besides a fighter with minimal cleric casting so they can be 'gritty, realistic heroes'."


....f*** you Gray Guard. I acknowledge you exist only to curse that very fact. If you want to play a paladin then play a paladin, not his 'morally ambiguous' cousin that is basically PC-viable evil endorsed by churches that should never endorse them. Paladins are heroes, so act like it.

I actually like gray guard. I hate filtering every character class into a single archetype, and gray guard, if played well, allows for a more nuanced take on the paladin class. But that's just my personal preference.

[Jon_Dahl]

In all seriousness, this prestige class entertains me with how many directions it's trying to go in at once.

Oh man, I laughed so hard!

[Sam K]

Every PRC that has an alignment restriction while not being directly linked to a specific planar being of that alignment.

I can see how PRCs that make you a champion of some diety or fiend may require you to conform to that specific alignment, but the requirement to be evil in order to take the assassin PRC just doesn't make any sense. WORKING as an assassin would likely turn you evil, but there's nothing evil about the class. Atleast not any more evil than any of the other thousands of (far more efficient) ways PCs can kill intelligent humanoids.

I'm even iffy about blackguards requirement to be evil. While I could see non-good making some sense, there's no real reason why neutral characters couldn't have, you know, "peaceful contact with evil outsiders ". Wouldn't tempting neutral people to pledge their service to fiends in exchange for (the chance of) temporal power be EXACTLY the kind of thing evil outsiders would do?

Also, blackguards hide requirement. And blackguards cleave requirement. When did selling your soul become so complicated? I thought the dark side was suppose to be more tempting? "Sorry, Orcus has rejected your application, please contact us again once you have picked up 5 ranks of a cross-class skill that doesn't work very well with the combat style we encourage you to use."

[Velaryon]

I feel that Reaping Mauler deserves a mention because it's a grappling-focused class that actively makes you worse at grappling by locking away the best option you have for being good at grappling.

If it required Improved Grapple as a prerequisite instead of Clever Wrestling and gave you Clever Wrestling at level 1 instead of Improved Grapple, then that would fix the problem (though it still wouldn't be a particularly good class). Anyone who wants to be a grappler has already taken Improved Grapple before entering this class anyway, and Clever Wrestling is all about getting out of a grapple, which a Reaping Mauler should almost never want to do.

I just houserule that Improved Grapple is the prerequisite and you get Clever Wrestling at level 1, although it doesn't matter since no one in my games wants the class anyway. This has the benefit of also allowing you to increase your size beyond medium without losing access to all your class features.

[Melcar]

A couple of things...

I like this thread... I think it fun to read all the not so well thought of PrC. There are so many thats its hard to pick one...

Persoanlly I have problems with PrC that have stupid or directly bad prerequisites... I get hat is supposed to be cool fluff, but when the fluff is something that youll never actually use, I think its bad.

The prerequisite of the 3.0 version of Dweomerkeeper... Yes exotic weapon proficiency (Shuriken) as a caster, was a real good thing.

EDIT: Oh yeah... Apostle of Peace. It simply makes no sense to me... and actually seems to not work. It might fit more into a dysfunctionel thread, but I remember thingking "wow that was poorly designed" when first reading this class.

[jedipotter]

Arcane Archer such a great idea fluff wise, but mechanicaly it sucks. First off, who is this class for martial character archers or spellcasters? The class is quite odd about that point. The martial archer can't really make use of the adding spells to the arrow ability without lots of levels in a spellcasting class. And a spellcaster does not get much from the class other then adding spells to arrows, but they have the huge drawback of not being able to hit anything as they have low BaBs and no archery feats.

Now the plus arrows and adding spells to arrows is a good start, but then the class just kinda sputters out. The seeker, phase, hail and death arrows are kinda ''ok'' abilities....but each is only once a day. Sure shooting an arrow through an adamaintimum wall once a day is ok, but what about the rest of the day? And the death arrow ability is a very low powered ability. Considering you won't get the death arrow until at least 16th level, a DC of 20 is a bit pointless for foes of that level.


Arcane Trickster Another class that sounds good. Have a mischievous gnome, this class sounds great. But it has the odd spellcaster/rogue requirement requiring a split of experience. And the sneak attack is just not a good fit for the concept. The ranged skills is ''ok'', but it's very limited...opening a lock from 30 feet away once a day is just ''ok''. Then the class gives more sneak attack, and a ''trickster'' just does does not fit with ''I'm gonna stab you for more damage!''. Sneak attack is way to combative an ability for a ''trickster''. A Trickster does a trick, like an illusion to fool someone...they are not a combat striker doing lots of damage. And then that is it.....the class gives nothing else.

[Jeff the Green]

Arcane Archer such a great idea fluff wise, but mechanicaly it sucks. First off, who is this class for martial character archers or spellcasters? The class is quite odd about that point. The martial archer can't really make use of the adding spells to the arrow ability without lots of levels in a spellcasting class. And a spellcaster does not get much from the class other then adding spells to arrows, but they have the huge drawback of not being able to hit anything as they have low BaBs and no archery feats.

Now the plus arrows and adding spells to arrows is a good start, but then the class just kinda sputters out. The seeker, phase, hail and death arrows are kinda ''ok'' abilities....but each is only once a day. Sure shooting an arrow through an adamaintimum wall once a day is ok, but what about the rest of the day? And the death arrow ability is a very low powered ability. Considering you won't get the death arrow until at least 16th level, a DC of 20 is a bit pointless for foes of that level.

Rather than just add casting progression, my preferred fix is to condense it to five levels and give it casting for four of those. It means you get your special arrows at levels where they actually matter and makes it worth taking the whole way; even with full casting I'd probably only ever take two levels of the original.

[OldTrees1]

Arcane Trickster Another class that sounds good. Have a mischievous gnome, this class sounds great. But it has the odd spellcaster/rogue requirement requiring a split of experience. And the sneak attack is just not a good fit for the concept. The ranged skills is ''ok'', but it's very limited...opening a lock from 30 feet away once a day is just ''ok''. Then the class gives more sneak attack, and a ''trickster'' just does does not fit with ''I'm gonna stab you for more damage!''. Sneak attack is way to combative an ability for a ''trickster''. A Trickster does a trick, like an illusion to fool someone...they are not a combat striker doing lots of damage. And then that is it.....the class gives nothing else.

The 3.5 Arcane Trickster does fail in its implementation. Silver Key is a better implementation of the concept in 3.5. You are basically applying magic towards your Rogue profession.

[Novawurmson]

Every PRC that has an alignment restriction while not being directly linked to a specific planar being of that alignment.

I can see how PRCs that make you a champion of some diety or fiend may require you to conform to that specific alignment, but the requirement to be evil in order to take the assassin PRC just doesn't make any sense. WORKING as an assassin would likely turn you evil, but there's nothing evil about the class. Atleast not any more evil than any of the other thousands of (far more efficient) ways PCs can kill intelligent humanoids.

YES, thank you. This one always drove me nuts.

I'll throw in votes for Duelist and Shadowdancer, both for massive failure on the crunch side. Shadowdancer was especially a thorn in my side because my wife loves to play rogue-ish things and is a dancer IRL, so we tried to make it work in several campaigns (before we really knew much about optimization).

[torrasque666]

The 3.5 Arcane Trickster does fail in its implementation. Silver Key is a better implementation of the concept in 3.5. You are basically applying magic towards your Rogue profession.

Which is kind of odd, given how when most people think "magic rogue" they think elf, or gnome. Not dwarf.

[NotScaryBats]

The "Terrain Books" like to introduce really specific PrCs to combat the really specific rules of the books they are in.

Cloud Anchorite is kinda cool, but over ten levels it lets you... walk on water, walk on air, charge through difficult terrain, and gives you a climb speed.

That's kind of a raw deal for 10 levels of 3/4 BAB and no progression of anything (not even Monk stuff, while Monk is the clearly intended entry to this class).

Knight of the Pearl is kinda cool, but over five levels it lets you not suck in water as much as a paladin, but most of their abilities can be bought with cheap magical items, and it also doesn't progress anything but Lay on Hands.

[NeoSeraphi]

The answer is weretouched master from the Eberron Campaign Setting.

Now, hear me out. Shifters are amazing beastly holy crap how much do I love lycanthropes I only wrote a handbook on shifters and like 5 different pieces of lycanthropy homebrew.

The problem is the stupid errata that it got. Weretouched Master was created to let you play a lycanthrope. To earn your LA and your awesome powers through feats and class levels, like the shifter race itself. But no, the errata ruined it. Instead of getting to transform into a true hybrid form with claws and fangs, an increase in size and bonuses to your physical scores equal to the animal's -10, you get the ability to polymorph into that creature, for only a few rounds per day! At level 5, in a class that took you 5 levels to qualify for. So you can be this specific race, and spend one of your feats and 5 levels in a prestige class that grants no caster levels to get a few rounds of a spell that wizards got at 7th level?! For one specific animal.

The errata'd capstone gives you neither the amazing versatility of polymorph nor the raw power of true lycanthropy. It's a joke.

[OldTrees1]

Which is kind of odd, given how when most people think "magic rogue" they think elf, or gnome. Not dwarf.

Well it makes sense in the "A locksmith is the best thief" kind of way, but yeah there should have been a non racial prestige class long before then.

[Troacctid]

Oh! Let's not forget Incarnum Blade. Now that's a steaming pile of whatsit. Learn to shape blademelds! Except all the blademelds suck! Have fun!

[jedipotter]

Rather than just add casting progression, my preferred fix is to condense it to five levels and give it casting for four of those. It means you get your special arrows at levels where they actually matter and makes it worth taking the whole way; even with full casting I'd probably only ever take two levels of the original.

I like prestige classes to be more rounded and give attack, defense and utility powers. And the powers need to scale with levels and not be too limiting. And powers need to be a mix of mundane and magic. And a lot of powers just make no sense for their level...like death arrow.


Assassin Again great fluff, but only a little useful crunch. Death attack is ''ok'', but they could sure use more abilities like Impromptu Sneak Attack like the arcane trickster has. Dodge and poison use are ''ok'', but nothing exciting. And hide in plain sight is nice enough, but it comes way, way late at almost 20th level. And the spells are a bit....eh. Well, I do like the idea of a ''spell assassin'', I kinda don't like the ''every single assassin in the world is a spellcaster'' bit. It just does not fit the class. And the assassin is missing a ton of other abilities that could be very useful to an assassin: skill bonuses, supernatural magic defenses like nondetection, some type of advanced disguise ability and maybe most of all: some type of scaling attack ability so they can still assassinate things past 10th level or so.

Blackguard Again great fluff and idea....and not so much crunch. Detect good, poison, blessing, aura, command, servant and spells are a good start......but then they get little else. Sneak attack is very odd and does not scale well. Getting +1d6 damage at 10th level is just a joke. And '''smite foe'' or some type of more unique ability might have worked so much better. And after 5th level...the class is blank except for a couple of improvements. They just forgot to add anything high level.

[Lappy9001]

In terms of sheer goofiness, probably Scion of Tem-Et-Nu. While you don't need the river goddess' super silly accompanying feat to qualify, it's specialized so that you have to be by water for half of its abilities to function. And specifically, you have to be by a river, so it's not especially useful in aquatic campaigns. Of course, if you're going for a hippo-control build, it's probably your best bet

Now, in terms of what I'm actually disappointed by? Risen Martyr. I actually really like the idea of pulling a Gandalf for a quest of supreme good. I don't even mind that you die at the end, it's very thematically appropriate. However, it's a mish-mash of class features and could have been pulled off far more eloquently than it was.

[ILM]

Which is kind of odd, given how when most people think "magic rogue" they think elf, or gnome. Not dwarf.

In fairness, the adaptation section pretty much opens it up to everyone else, if your DM is open to these things.

[Bloody Peasant!]

I like prestige classes to be more rounded and give attack, defense and utility powers. And the powers need to scale with levels and not be too limiting. And powers need to be a mix of mundane and magic. And a lot of powers just make no sense for their level...like death arrow.


Assassin Again great fluff, but only a little useful crunch. Death attack is ''ok'', but they could sure use more abilities like Impromptu Sneak Attack like the arcane trickster has. Dodge and poison use are ''ok'', but nothing exciting. And hide in plain sight is nice enough, but it comes way, way late at almost 20th level. And the spells are a bit....eh. Well, I do like the idea of a ''spell assassin'', I kinda don't like the ''every single assassin in the world is a spellcaster'' bit. It just does not fit the class. And the assassin is missing a ton of other abilities that could be very useful to an assassin: skill bonuses, supernatural magic defenses like nondetection, some type of advanced disguise ability and maybe most of all: some type of scaling attack ability so they can still assassinate things past 10th level or so.

I disagree. The assassin is a pretty solid choice for a roguey build. Uncanny dodge is a very useful ability (though if you start out rogue you'll probably already have it), and HiPS comes at 8th level, when the character is likely around the ~13 mark. Still a little late coming though. Death attack is pretty crap, but they get a great SA progression plus something you forgot to mention which is spells! And those are kind of a big deal. You'll notice this includes supernatural magic defenses like nondetection, skill bonuses, and some type of advanced disguise ability. As far as the scaling attack ability goes, I thought that was what sneak attack was?

[eggynack]

I frigging hate beastmaster. I just hate it so much. So many people, good and druid loving people, are pulled down this worst of paths, a class that grants a first level animal companion, one that's next to impossible to advance, as a capstone. It's so enticing, with its promise of a pile of animals waiting at your beck and call, and then it stabs you in the back, turning all of your hopes, hopes for actually useful bonus companions, hopes that natural bond will interact with it favorably, hopes that you won't sacrifice all of your awesome for a pile of nothing, into ashes in its wake. They created this horror with full intent too. They meant to make you wait ten levels for an unadvanced and unadvancable riding dog. Cruel is what it is.

[Extra Anchovies]

I frigging hate beastmaster. I just hate it so much. So many people, good and druid loving people, are pulled down this worst of paths, a class that grants a first level animal companion, one that's next to impossible to advance, as a capstone. It's so enticing, with its promise of a pile of animals waiting at your beck and call, and then it stabs you in the back, turning all of your hopes, hopes for actually useful bonus companions, hopes that natural bond will interact with it favorably, hopes that you won't sacrifice all of your awesome for a pile of nothing, into ashes in its wake. They created this horror with full intent too. They meant to make you wait ten levels for an unadvanced and unadvancable riding dog. Cruel is what it is.

What do you mean? It's only a 1-level class!

[eggynack]

What do you mean? It's only a 1-level class!

Quite true, but that's definitely not the thing that attracts most folk. People want those awful awful extra companions, and they want them under some misguided assumption that they're not awful. I have a special place in my anti-heart for traps of that kind.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Quite true, but that's definitely not the thing that attracts most folk. People want those awful awful extra companions, and they want them under some misguided assumption that they're not awful. I have a special place in my anti-heart for traps of that kind.

Consider, if you will, a totemist /beastmaster with share soulmeld and shape soulmeld (vitality belt).