Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

[137beth]

Gel might well be better at arguing edge cases. After all, the edge of the rule book is where you get paper cuts, also known as tree 'veange!

[SoC175]

Err, she lost that argument.

Did she? I don't remember us seeing the conclusion.

[Sylian]

Did she? I don't remember us seeing the conclusion.

We haven't seen the conclusion, but the "Bah!" heavily implies that she lost the argument.

[SoC175]

We haven't seen the conclusion, but the "Bah!" heavily implies that she lost the argument.

The "Bah!" is proof that Thor doesn't agree to her claim, but that doesn't mean that he has the power to wrest the soul from her, especially since they are already in her realm (so whatever predetermination automatism they have in place already send the soul down to her). We have no proof of any "if two deities disagree and one of them is Hel, than Hel loses" clause

[Shoelessgdowar]

I will point out another possibility. The Battle of Honor. An elderly Dwarf simply walks outside and shouts, "In the Noble names of Thor and Odin, I call on any young warriors nearby to rescue a Noble Old Dwarf from Hel's vile clutches. I seek battle... come one, come all, I will defeat armies if I must, but I will die nobly in battle, even if it is by collapsing from the fatigue of it." and unless they were a coward, every able bodied Dwarf in hearing range that could would come from their homes, armed and ready to give the old Dwarf a noble battle so he does not have to face the indignity of old age. And if the Dwarf in his senility happened to forget his ac bonuses and feats that help him survive, and just happens to lose to the mob, does that make his death any less noble in battle?

[The Giant]

But how many would present themselves to a cook or baker? Unless dwarves are especially careless and have terrible workplace security

You are assuming a greater degree of job specialization than is typical. Dwarves cook for their own families and friends; they don't have dwarf restaurants staffed by dwarf chefs and dwarf waiters. And the line between "military" and "civilian" is more a matter of how much time you spend fighting than a hard line that is never crossed. All dwarves learn to fight, possibly because of these facts.

They also don't have, for example, dedicated first responders. When there's an accident, the dwarves nearby respond. Have you, in your actual life that is less than 300 years old, never seen an accident?

Let's take an example from earlier:

I see nothing dishonorable about living to a ripe old age after having successfully, say, spending your life ferrying vital supplies to your dwarven mountain kingdom for the good of the clan until youre too old to navigate the pass anymore, then retiring and helping to make sure your grandkids grow up to be proper dwarves.

Until the year of the Terrible Winter, when it seemed as if Hoder himself had stretched out his hand and engulfed the mountain pass with ice and snow. The dwarves rationed their food as best they could, but the clerics could only conjure so much. Starvation was imminent; a caravan would have to get through before the thaw. He looked to his son and daughter, who had inherited the work after he had retired. They had long since mastered the skills necessary to make the trip, but the danger that these snows brought was beyond anything they had ever encountered. With five children between the pair, he could not let them take this burden on themselves. He was still fit enough, and getting no fitter. He would go. His daughter pleaded with him, asking him to stay. His grandchildren needed him, needed his wisdom and learning. But what lesson could he teach that would matter more than this one? What lecture could he speak that would say more to the young ones about what being a dwarf meant than this one act? His daughter knew in her heart that he spoke the truth, and relented. He was proud of her for holding back her tears.

He gathered up those of his old crew that had not yet made the trip to Valhalla themselves. Not a hair among them was less white than the snow they'd soon traverse. His old caravan captain smiled when he asked. "Looks like I'll get to die defending you after all," she joked.

He returned her grin. "Not if I die saving you first," he countered.

And so the old dwarf and his friends set off into the snow and ice, laughing and thumbing their nose at Hel and Hoder both, pulling the cart by hand—for who among them could condemn a donkey to this fate? He never saw the settlement again, nor did his captain, nor did others. The winter wolves saw to the ones that the cold did not. Of the three that did make it back, one collapsed as soon as the entrance came within view, his ancient heart knowing that the mission had succeeded. In the grateful meal that was to come, the townsfolk sang songs of praise to those that fell, to speed their spirits on to Valhalla where they would drink with their ancestors forevermore.

[Father Miles]

Based on previous comments by The Giant, I'd imagine children would get a free pass to a decent afterlife even if they died of disease.

That would make it a lot more reasonable then. A laborer dying in a work related accident would probably count as well, since they were doing their duty. It also makes a lot of sense for dwarves to be Lawful, since Lawful dwarves should be statistically more likely to die with honor.

I suspect there might still be some rather unfortunate cases. An unexpected stroke while having dinner, for instance.

"Thar be some grey areas". Hel seems rather unsatisfied with the share of souls she is receiving, in any case. If it was already 95% there'd be very little profit in the current plan.

[woweedd]

It sounds like, the way Rich is describing them, Dwarves are like Turians in Mass Effect. To quote an old edit on TVTropes,"Every turian is either a soldier, a retired soldier or training to be a soldier." and it sounds like OOTS Dwarves are the same way.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It seems as though the forums are enjoying making arguments based off false premises and then going on from there. It seems as though it would be pretty easy for the dwarves to find a way to die with honor, especially in a society based off of doing your duty even if it makes you miserable, nay, especially if it makes you miserable.

Until the year of the Terrible Winter, when it seemed as if Hoder himself had stretched out his hand and engulfed the mountain pass with ice and snow. The dwarves rationed their food as best they could, but the clerics could only conjure so much. Starvation was imminent; a caravan would have to get through before the thaw. He looked to his son and daughter, who had inherited the work after he had retired. They had long since mastered the skills necessary to make the trip, but the danger that these snows brought was beyond anything they had ever encountered. With five children between the pair, he could not let them take this burden on themselves. He was still fit enough, and getting no fitter. He would go. His daughter pleaded with him, asking him to stay. His grandchildren needed him, needed his wisdom and learning. But what lesson could he teach that would matter more than this one? What lecture could he speak that would say more to the young ones about what being a dwarf meant than this one act? His daughter knew in her heart that he spoke the truth, and relented. He was proud of her for holding back her tears.

He gathered up those of his old crew that had not yet made the trip to Valhalla themselves. Not a hair among them was less white than the snow they'd soon traverse. His old caravan captain smiled when he asked. "Looks like I'll get to die defending you after all," she joked.

He returned her grin. "Not if I die saving you first," he countered.

And so the old dwarf and his friends set off into the snow and ice, laughing and thumbing their nose at Hel and Hoder both, pulling the cart by hand—for who among them could condemn a donkey to this fate? He never saw the settlement again, nor did his captain, nor did others. The winter wolves saw to the ones that the cold did not. Of the three that did make it back, one collapsed as soon as the entrance came within view, his ancient heart knowing that the mission had succeeded. In the grateful meal that was to come, the townsfolk sang songs of praise to those that fell, to speed their spirits on to Valhalla where they would drink with their ancestors forevermore.

This is beautiful.

[Keltest]

This is beautiful.

I salute you, proud caravan master dwarf.

In retrospect, this would also explain Durkon's rather cavalier attitude about death, for himself and his allies.

[Bulldog Psion]

So, to put it even more succinctly, dwarves are a race of reckless risk-takers and adrenaline addicts?

Sounds plausible to me. Also explains why they drink every time someone counts; doing that while working on a mountainside must lead to a fair number of "honorable deaths in the line of duty" right there.

"How was work today, dear?"
"Och, right good, sweetling. Two of the lasses an' one of the lads got smashed counting the shipment o' grain sacks fro' the human traders and fell straight down 2000 feet to the Thor's Smirk Glacier. They're in Valhalla sure. Reach me a pint, will ye?"

[Ron Miel]

This is beautiful.

I think ... I think there's something in my eye.

[littlebum2002]

So, to put it even more succinctly, dwarves are a race of reckless risk-takers and adrenaline addicts?

Sounds plausible to me. Also explains why they drink every time someone counts; doing that while working on a mountainside must lead to a fair number of "honorable deaths in the line of duty" right there.

"How was work today, dear?"
"Och, right good, sweetling. Two of the lasses an' one of the lads got smashed counting the shipment o' grain sacks fro' the human traders and fell straight down 2000 feet to the Thor's Smirk Glacier. They're in Valhalla sure. Reach me a pint, will ye?"

Also because liver failure is a nice insurance against a dishonorable death

[Sky_Schemer]

Rich, these insights into Dwarven culture in the OOTS-verse really are amazing. Thank you for taking the time to share all of this with us. Yes, the hints of this are all there in the strips, but these details really flesh it out.

[Sky_Schemer]

So, to put it even more succinctly, dwarves are a race of reckless risk-takers and adrenaline addicts?

hehehe

I also see Rich painting a larger picture here, that dying with honor can be more than just dying an honorable death: it is as much about living your whole life with honor, and that will color how they handle their final days if they find themselves succumbing to illness or old age. If you were the type that fought valiantly and bravely and still lived to old age and were facing death in a "dishonorable" way, well...you'd be the type that would want to choose the manner of your death rather than let it be decided for you.

But I see a picture of other ways of living and dying with honor, such as a high priest that lives a life in faithful service to his or her diety, helping the poor and the weak through healing and creating food and water. That cleric might live to old age just because they don't see many risks, but it is still a life of honor if they are always serving the greater community.

I suspect that, in this world, and due to the terms of whatever bargain Hel has with the other gods, she tries very hard to weasel as many souls as she can by claiming dishonor based on the manner of their death rather than the manner of their whole life. We have seen some panels that take things literally but are obviously played for comedy, but I am sure that in the "real" OOTS-verse, Hel is infuriated by being denied so many souls because she wants to nitpick on the details.

Edited to add: Hel is holding the ultimate trump card here. She is basically saying that, by hitting the reset button on the world, they are robbing all lives of their futures. Their lives are being ended not becasuse of their actions (or inactions) or beliefs or anything that they have control over. The other races would just see this as an unfair and unjust death, but to the Dwarves, unfair and unjust deaths have real consequences.

She's also betting it all on this one moment. Like your classic supervillain, it is not enough to just win: she has to win and gloat about it. Now that she's revealed her plans in advance, if she loses (well, when...we know she will, just not how) they are clearly not going to fall for this sort of thing ever again.

[Lombard]

It's interesting to ponder, one might actually expect the dwarves to be one of the most warlike races in this setting based on the 'honor' proviso, but we haven't (in this story at least) seen too much of empire-building or large-scale internal strife. This might tend to imply that their environment and lifestyle is inherently fraught with danger, like.. what is that game.. oh yeah- Dwarf Fortress!

[unbeliever536]

Given that our only glimpse of dwarven society is the life of one disabled veteran and her young son, I think it's a bit of an leap to assume that there are no wars. Or at least, no violent conflicts: Sigdi's husband and a lot of innocent miners died in a troll attack, after all, with no war required. Monsters are everywhere, especially in underground tunnels.

While the line about picking a fight with a tree was intended for comedy, the point still remains that if you know for certain you will only get a good afterlife if you die with honor, you are far more likely to deliberately go seek out an enemy to fight—whether it's orcs, giants, drow, duergar, etc.—as soon as you know you're sick or getting old. I imagine honor duels are probably a very common way of settling the score between two feuding dwarves: If I win, then I win, but if I lose, I still get an honorable death. And again, if you're sick, why not provoke a duel you know you will lose?

Also, there are certainly ways to die with honor that don't involve combat. If there's a cave-in and you take the time to save another dwarf but can't get out yourself before it collapses, that's an honorable death even though you were killed by a falling rock.

Basically, this all comes down to the fact that the dwarves know, for a fact, that this is how the world works for them. There's no reason to assume that they don't have methods for dealing with it.

In fact, this is probably the source of Hel's grievance with her father and Thor (unless that's something else that will be explained later?): it looks like she should get the fast majority of dwarven dead, but she doesn't because of a combination of loopholes and the dwarves' ability to influence whether they get counted as honorable dead.

(said everyone else in the thread)

[HorizonWalker]

Yeah, I think there's an important distinction to be made here.

Hel thought the deal specified "honorable death", which is a specific circumstance(dying in the process of helping others). Whereas the actual deal specified "death with honor", which simply means maintaining your honor even in your dying breaths. So if you got mummy rot from defending an orphanage... well, nobody's gonna say defending an orphanage is dishonorable. You had your honor, and when the mummy rot took you, you were still an honorable person. That's a death with honor. Not an honorable death, maybe, but it is a death with honor.

Indeed, in some circumstances, dying of old age or sickness is honorable. Think of a dwarven warrior so mighty that none could fell them, so stout and strong that death had to take them in their sleep, for if they had been awake, there would've been a fight.

...Naturally, such a circumstance is unlikely and rare. Dwarven honor probably demands the policy of "pick on someone your own size"(so to speak), therefore you have to fight level-appropriate encounters, and short of a heavily-optimized Crusader/Dwarven Defender with Trollblood, Improved Trip, and a spiked chain, melee characters are going to die in battle sooner or later.

And that's how the dwarves like it.

[pearl jam]

Second, no, because the proper solution is actually, "Live a life of honor and service to your fellow dwarf so that whenever you happen to die, you'll be in the middle of acting honorably.".

So many times I find myself wishing that I could "like" your replies Facebook style, and this is yet another.

Pretty good advice, in my opinion, whether you're a Dwarf looking to avoid Hel, or not.

[Ted The Bug]

This is one of the most fascinating discussions I've read on these forums. Just wanted to say that I'm enjoying it quite a lot.

[SaintRidley]

Until the year of the Terrible Winter, when it seemed as if Hoder himself had stretched out his hand and engulfed the mountain pass with ice and snow. The dwarves rationed their food as best they could, but the clerics could only conjure so much. Starvation was imminent; a caravan would have to get through before the thaw. He looked to his son and daughter, who had inherited the work after he had retired. They had long since mastered the skills necessary to make the trip, but the danger that these snows brought was beyond anything they had ever encountered. With five children between the pair, he could not let them take this burden on themselves. He was still fit enough, and getting no fitter. He would go. His daughter pleaded with him, asking him to stay. His grandchildren needed him, needed his wisdom and learning. But what lesson could he teach that would matter more than this one? What lecture could he speak that would say more to the young ones about what being a dwarf meant than this one act? His daughter knew in her heart that he spoke the truth, and relented. He was proud of her for holding back her tears.

He gathered up those of his old crew that had not yet made the trip to Valhalla themselves. Not a hair among them was less white than the snow they'd soon traverse. His old caravan captain smiled when he asked. "Looks like I'll get to die defending you after all," she joked.

He returned her grin. "Not if I die saving you first," he countered.

And so the old dwarf and his friends set off into the snow and ice, laughing and thumbing their nose at Hel and Hoder both, pulling the cart by hand—for who among them could condemn a donkey to this fate? He never saw the settlement again, nor did his captain, nor did others. The winter wolves saw to the ones that the cold did not. Of the three that did make it back, one collapsed as soon as the entrance came within view, his ancient heart knowing that the mission had succeeded. In the grateful meal that was to come, the townsfolk sang songs of praise to those that fell, to speed their spirits on to Valhalla where they would drink with their ancestors forevermore.

My hat's off to you, sir. That was a beautiful little story.

[SoC175]

You are assuming a greater degree of job specialization than is typical. Dwarves cook for their own families and friends; they don't have dwarf restaurants staffed by dwarf chefs and dwarf waiters.

not knowing the details of dwarven society i assumed a srandard D&D one. There the dwarven cities have their inns, butcher shops, grocery stores, etc. like other cities.

And the line between "military" and "civilian" is more a matter of how much time you spend fighting than a hard line that is never crossed. All dwarves learn to fight, possibly because of these facts.

Again in Greyhawk or FR a great mamy dwarves never have to draw steel in life and death situations. We're learning a lot about your vision for OotS dwsrves here.

They also don't have, for example, dedicated first responders. When there's an accident, the dwarves nearby respond.

Yet in such cases the ratio between those in the bucket line and those few entering and searching the burning buildings is favoring the former

Have you, in your actual life that is less than 300 years old, never seen an accident?

A potentially deadly accident happening right when I was in time and place to act? Like 99% of the population never. Even trippling the chances of that happening in my lifetime means i almost guaranteed to never will

Let's take an example from earlier:



Until the year of the Terrible Winter, when it seemed as if Hoder himself had stretched out his hand and engulfed the mountain pass with ice and snow. The dwarves rationed their food as best they could, but the clerics could only conjure so much. Starvation was imminent; a caravan would have to get through before the thaw. He looked to his son and daughter, who had inherited the work after he had retired. They had long since mastered the skills necessary to make the trip, but the danger that these snows brought was beyond anything they had ever encountered. With five children between the pair, he could not let them take this burden on themselves. He was still fit enough, and getting no fitter. He would go. His daughter pleaded with him, asking him to stay. His grandchildren needed him, needed his wisdom and learning. But what lesson could he teach that would matter more than this one? What lecture could he speak that would say more to the young ones about what being a dwarf meant than this one act? His daughter knew in her heart that he spoke the truth, and relented. He was proud of her for holding back her tears.

He gathered up those of his old crew that had not yet made the trip to Valhalla themselves. Not a hair among them was less white than the snow they'd soon traverse. His old caravan captain smiled when he asked. "Looks like I'll get to die defending you after all," she joked.

He returned her grin. "Not if I die saving you first," he countered.

And so the old dwarf and his friends set off into the snow and ice, laughing and thumbing their nose at Hel and Hoder both, pulling the cart by hand—for who among them could condemn a donkey to this fate? He never saw the settlement again, nor did his captain, nor did others. The winter wolves saw to the ones that the cold did not. Of the three that did make it back, one collapsed as soon as the entrance came within view, his ancient heart knowing that the mission had succeeded. In the grateful meal that was to come, the townsfolk sang songs of praise to those that fell, to speed their spirits on to Valhalla where they would drink with their ancestors forevermore.

That's a nice story, until you have to think two who made it back alive are still bound for Hel. Also if the rations are so important, Sendung out the strongest is a much more logical course than sending the old who lead to a much higher risk if the whole Mission failing and many dwarves starving.


Looking at RL vikings, who held a similiar believe, modern research showed the large majority died from normal causes and the ones dying earning their ticket to Walhalla were the lucky few. Applied to this thread it would mean Hel getting more souls than the rest

[Quebbster]

That's a nice story, until you have to think two who made it back alive are still bound for Hel.

How can you be so sure they died dishonorably? Couldn't they just die honorably at a later point? Also, if everyone died and the shipment never made it back to the homeland the other's death would be in vain and possibly dishonorable. Wouldn't you rather make sure your comrade's sacrifices weren't in vain?

[EAN]

According to #1000
Death by world obliteration is without honor.
At least that what Hel thinks.
According to #954
Death by disease is also usually without honor.
At least that what HPOH thinks.
-----------------------------

[Porthos]

Applied to this thread it would mean Hel getting more souls than the rest

And yet she isn't.

I admire sticktoitiveness when it comes to trying to find a plot hole, but I suspect your's and Rich's definition of what dwarves consider "dishonorable death" don't exactly coincide.

Besides that, asking Rich to detail each and every situation where a dwarf dies an honorable death seems to be a bit much. More than a bit much. Yet that seems to me what you are doing, if only by contradiction. Rich brings up a situation, you say, "But what about this twist on that situation?".

Rich, as an author can give broad strokes about the societies he creates. That they may or may not have holes in them simply reflects the fact that it is a story and not a documentary.

I mean, you could pick apart any story with this sort of questioning. Star Wars has been poked to death for larger logical inconsistencies than this one here. Yet it is by all accounts a successful story.

Hell, even the Grand Master of World Building, J.R.R. Tolkien had unsolvable problems with his make-believe world. Make believe worlds tend to do that, not being, you know, real. Of course, Real Life is chock full of illogical stances and societies, but best not to dwell on those too much here.

Now I'm not suggesting that you can't argue the point. I mean, that's what criticism is all about.

But I AM suggesting that looking at it as a story and not a documentary about how things Would Really Work might be a better tact. Fridge Logic can only take one so far, I think, in other words. Sooner or later the MST3K mantra should come back into play. As long as it has a believable explanation, the suspension of disbelief should be enough.

Now you seem to not find the answers given believable. Fair enough. But sooner or later, an author can only explain so much before moving on to other things. You either buy what is being sold or you don't, I guess is the point I am trying to make.

===

All of the above said, I am going to try a slightly different angle here. It's pretty obvious from Hel's mood and behavior that she isn't getting nearly the amount of souls she feels entitled to.

Why is the question (if one feels the need to look for a question here, that is). The reason seem to be that Dwarven Society is geared in such a way that dishonorable death is far rarer than apparent.

Why, again? Well, Rich has given some answers. Others have given others. Ultimately I think it comes down to that what you consider dishonorable death and what the standard dwarf does in OotSWorld either don't coincide AND/OR the likelihood of chances of meeting an honorable death (again, whatever that means for the dwarf in question) is far higher than you're willing to accept.

Not much more can be argued about the point, I think. Hel doesn't get the souls that she might otherwise in a "normal" society. Sucks to be her, I guess.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Hang on, wait a second. If "living a life of honor" can also qualify even if you don't die in battle, then wouldn't suddenly ending the world get Hel a hell of a lot less souls than she thinks she would get? Because even if everyone is suddenly killed, most of the dwarves will be living a life of honor anyway?
Otherwise, this is a really fascinating discussion, and reminds me of the dwarves in games I've played a little bit.

[Killer Angel]

Given that our only glimpse of dwarven society is the life of one disabled veteran and her young son, I think it's a bit of an leap to assume that there are no wars. Or at least, no violent conflicts: Sigdi's husband and a lot of innocent miners died in a troll attack, after all, with no war required. Monsters are everywhere, especially in underground tunnels.

While the line about picking a fight with a tree was intended for comedy, the point still remains that if you know for certain you will only get a good afterlife if you die with honor, you are far more likely to deliberately go seek out an enemy to fight—whether it's orcs, giants, drow, duergar, etc.—as soon as you know you're sick or getting old. I imagine honor duels are probably a very common way of settling the score between two feuding dwarves: If I win, then I win, but if I lose, I still get an honorable death. And again, if you're sick, why not provoke a duel you know you will lose?

Also, there are certainly ways to die with honor that don't involve combat. If there's a cave-in and you take the time to save another dwarf but can't get out yourself before it collapses, that's an honorable death even though you were killed by a falling rock.

Basically, this all comes down to the fact that the dwarves know, for a fact, that this is how the world works for them. There's no reason to assume that they don't have methods for dealing with it.

There's also another hypothesis to consider.
I know that the reference to "gray areas" (with Hel being deprived of her prize) was for comedy, BUT we can also assume that, indeed, the gods are willing to cheat Hel on souls division.

[factotum]

Hang on, wait a second. If "living a life of honor" can also qualify even if you don't die in battle, then wouldn't suddenly ending the world get Hel a hell of a lot less souls than she thinks she would get?

That's entirely possible, but would Hel realise that? Heck, she isn't even sure if the soul of every living dwarf would be sufficient to make her the most powerful Northern god, I don't think she's gone through and calculated how many souls Thor, Odin and the others will be able to take with the same sort of arguments we've seen them use against her in "joke" panels through the strip's run.

The simple fact is, though, it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters about this is that *Hel* thinks this is a viable plan, and is voting to destroy the world on that basis. She might be entirely delusional in that regard, but I'm sure that won't come as a massive comfort to the millions of people killed when the world is destroyed.

[NerdyKris]

Does it matter to the story at all if she's wrong or not?

Roy still wants to save the world, not just because of Hel's plan, but for everyone else that's about to get killed as well. Whether or not her plan would work doesn't change Roy's actions, and we all know the story isn't going to end with "And then Roy failed and the world ended". We know her plan isn't going to happen either way, because that would be the end of the story. Similarly, we already know that Xykon's plan isn't going to work, but he's still a threat, because he's still attempting it.

[littlebum2002]

Dear Rich,

In order to determine if this story is plausible or not, we will require a complete breakdown of the life statistics of dwarves. We need to know their mean, median, and standard deviation of life expectancy. We need to know statistics on causes of death: how many dwarves die annually of caravan-related deaths? Of liver failure? Of saving other dwarves from falling off cliffs?

If a dwarf dies in the forest and no one is around, does he make a sound? What is the sound of a one handed dwarf clapping?

Please submit your detailed report and we will decide if your campaign setting is acceptable. We are very strict about ensuring that everything taking place in the 3.5 ruleset is entirely balanced and plausible.