What mythos have the West produced in the past 1000 years?

[comicshorse]

....and since he complains about being wifeless I think it's safe to assume that he's out of school, so my guess is mid 20's to early 30's.

( Puts on best Nigel Bruce voice)
" My god Holmes, that's brilliant ! "

[Friv]

Time is nothing but a measure of change. Are you prepared to argue that change doesn't exist? If so, how? Rules of engagement: You must not make any changes to this thread in so arguing. Alright? Go!

Here, prepare to have your mind blown.

In essence, you are correct! Change does not exist. All moments of time happen simultaneously in the universe, because time is an illusion constructed by organic matter that can't see the universe properly. Any changes I appear to be making in this thread are not, in fact, changes, as they were always present. We have simply shifted perspectives such that you can observe them right now.

There is no beginning or ending to the universe, because the concept of a beginning is a human construction, and not a fundamental truth.

[Donnadogsoth]

Here, prepare to have your mind blown.

In essence, you are correct! Change does not exist. All moments of time happen simultaneously in the universe, because time is an illusion constructed by organic matter that can't see the universe properly. Any changes I appear to be making in this thread are not, in fact, changes, as they were always present. We have simply shifted perspectives such that you can observe them right now.

There is no beginning or ending to the universe, because the concept of a beginning is a human construction, and not a fundamental truth.

Why would you post a link to an article where the masthead is a racist Crusader?

[Donnadogsoth]

I did understand it. I just find it without evidence or any logical reason to be convincing. You seem to be so sure of your rightness that you feel that nobody could understand you without agreeing. Thus I see no reason to change my materialist stance.

As indeed you couldn't, lacking free will. Which is the end of debate. If you're right, you lack free will, and I lack free will, which means neither of us can change our minds, but we are the helpless puppets of universal law.

[Lethologica]

As indeed you couldn't, lacking free will. Which is the end of debate. If you're right, you lack free will, and I lack free will, which means neither of us can change our minds, but we are the helpless puppets of universal law.

Except when compelled by universal law to change our minds, of course.

[2D8HP]

As indeed you couldn't, lacking free will. Which is the end of debate. If you're right, you lack free will, and I lack free will, which means neither of us can change our minds, but we are the helpless puppets of universal law.

On "Free Will":

I'm very aware that my tastes, views, etc. are shaped by when and where I grew up.

As a "parlour trick" I asked some co-workers (including my new boss) some questions:

1) How far do you travel to get to work?

2) How many daughters do you have?

3) How many sons do you have?

4) What work did your mother do when you were growing up?

5) How many years of school did your mother have?

Based on their answers I told them which candidate they voted for in the last election.

I'm 7 out of 8 correct (one guy didn't vote).

It's not everything, but environment accounts for a lot.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Here, prepare to have your mind blown.

In essence, you are correct! Change does not exist. All moments of time happen simultaneously in the universe, because time is an illusion constructed by organic matter that can't see the universe properly. Any changes I appear to be making in this thread are not, in fact, changes, as they were always present. We have simply shifted perspectives such that you can observe them right now.

There is no beginning or ending to the universe, because the concept of a beginning is a human construction, and not a fundamental truth.

That's what the first half of that article seems to claim, the part written by the journalist. The quotes in the second half tell a different story, that the physicist claims only now is real, that time doesn't exist as a dimension similar to those of space, but rather are what we perceive because of memories and planning, we remember a past that does not exist but did when now was then and imagine a future that does not exist, but will in some time.

Looking at the guys wikipedia page, that last part seems to be closer to what he advocates.

Which is good, because while I can handle a universe where time travel can't exist because there is no past to travel to a universe in which every time happens at the same time would kind of defeat the point of time.



On a related note, a single badly written newspaper article about one physicist's theories may not be quite the amount of proof you want for stating absolute truths about the universe. Yes I know I'm a killjoy.

[Razade]

"Folk-rock" was a type of mid 1960's to early 70's pop-music (most prominently by The Byrds), and if he was a fan of it that would make him my parents age, but he complains about it's "novelty for novelty's sake, implying that it's "newfangeled" to him, but since in another thread he linked to stuff by a "movement" led by a 95 year-old man I suspect that most of that post was copied from them.

Folk Rock continues to be a genre of music.

Why would you post a link to an article where the masthead is a racist Crusader?

Weird. I'd have thought that'd make you feel right at home. It's also just an absurd critique. That's like saying "why would you eat a pizza with a German pilot on it as a mascot".

[Friv]

That's what the first half of that article seems to claim, the part written by the journalist. The quotes in the second half tell a different story, that the physicist claims only now is real, that time doesn't exist as a dimension similar to those of space, but rather are what we perceive because of memories and planning, we remember a past that does not exist but did when now was then and imagine a future that does not exist, but will in some time.

Looking at the guys wikipedia page, that last part seems to be closer to what he advocates.

Which is good, because while I can handle a universe where time travel can't exist because there is no past to travel to a universe in which every time happens at the same time would kind of defeat the point of time.



On a related note, a single badly written newspaper article about one physicist's theories may not be quite the amount of proof you want for stating absolute truths about the universe. Yes I know I'm a killjoy.

Honestly, I'm just mucking around by presenting alternate theories to the OPs, and grabbed one I vaguely remembered from the past that is real far removed. Although you're both right that the source is bad; I grabbed it without looking more closely at the site surrounding it, which was very poor form of me. I apologize for using the site in question. It is not a good site.

[Aedilred]

You may or may have noticed I do this somewhat myself. Mostly because I was raised nearly entirely by British expats . . . this would get me slapped upside the head for such buffoonery. . . And since I both spend a fair amount of time in said nation, many of my family and friends are currently living there and in regular contact I feel quite sure in saying that, while the "u" in humour and armour or the vowel terminus of words like centre or theatre and different uses of the letters S and Zed are all still "British spelling". Aegypt, however, fell out of fashion eons ago. I do still see it on occasion to refer to Roman occupied Egypt but that's it.

Speaking as a real life British person, I can say that this is correct. British spelling does still favour a lot of diphthongs which American English has dropped (paediatrician; foetus; faeces; encyclopaedia, etc.) but "Aegypt" is absolutely not one of them, and using it in anything but a knowing and indicated sense to differentiate modern and ancient Egypt (see, e.g. British vs Brythonic) makes you look silly. It's "Egypt" here.

Felly, os ydych chi'n dymuno siarad yn yr iaith sy'n eich gwneud yn ymddangos yn fwy deallus, ni ddylai oedran yr iaith honno fod o bwys.

I can't say how happy it makes me that for what might be the first time I've come across unexpected Welsh and, though I had to look up a couple of words, was otherwise able to make sense of the whole sentence.

[2D8HP]

Folk Rock continues to be a genre of music.

Sure, it's a big world and most every genre of music played in the 20th century is being performed by someone today, I just thought that regarding it as "modernist" was revealing.

[137beth]

More food for my „Donnadogsoth is unimaginable old” theory.

Donnadogsoth: I am old as time and forever young
I am every song that will stay unsung
I'll find you, remind you
Until you name me, you won't tame me
This is one old game that I can play so well...

Hmm, that's a disturbing thought. Maybe Donnadogsoth isn't real at all! Maybe they died a long time ago and we are all collectively hallucinating their posts?

[Zurvan]

As much as Donnadogsoth seem to be a crazy, mentally unstable racist and and homophobic prick, I got to admit there is weight on his statement, there are some archetypes that are dying and others are being reborn I actually wrote a paper about this in college so to answer your question, no, no new archetypes are being born, but some are representative of an age or specific time, they may fall in disuse for a while but may come back later like a phoenix out of ashes.

Some years ago the Vampire was a big thing, thanks to our sexual freedom mentality and the sometimes abusive idea of a perfect relationship, no wonder twilight and fifth shades of grey where so popular that was the archetypal myth that permeated our society at that time.

Now many argue that the narcissistic myth is quite prevalent.

Spoiler

Show

Just substitute the reflection on the water to the screen of a computer.

I argue that the prevalent archetype of our age right now at this moment is the "Inquisitor" archetype.

Spoiler

Show

-A return to the "moral and family values"? Check.
-Constantly judging people for the religious and political beliefs? Check.
-Violent ideas for the punishment of the transgression? Check.
-The use of God, faith or religion to justify atrocities against others? Double Check.

The list goes on but you guys get the Geist of the thing.

I know I know nobody expected that.

[Donnadogsoth]

As much as Donnadogsoth seem to be a crazy, mentally unstable racist and and homophobic prick, I got to admit there is weight on his statement, there are some archetypes that are dying and others are being reborn I actually wrote a paper about this in college so to answer your question, no, no new archetypes are being born, but some are representative of an age or specific time, they may fall in disuse for a while but may come back later like a phoenix out of ashes.

Some years ago the Vampire was a big thing, thanks to our sexual freedom mentality and the sometimes abusive idea of a perfect relationship, no wonder twilight and fifth shades of grey where so popular that was the archetypal myth that permeated our society at that time.

Now many argue that the narcissistic myth is quite prevalent.

Spoiler

Show

Just substitute the reflection on the water to the screen of a computer.

I argue that the prevalent archetype of our age right now at this moment is the "Inquisitor" archetype.

Spoiler

Show

-A return to the "moral and family values"? Check.
-Constantly judging people for the religious and political beliefs? Check.
-Violent ideas for the punishment of the transgression? Check.
-The use of God, faith or religion to justify atrocities against others? Double Check.

The list goes on but you guys get the Geist of the thing.

I know I know nobody expected that.

Although I grasp your need to virtue-signal against me in front of the crowd rather than consider a more nuanced view of people who are not southpaws, I appreciate your answering the gist of my initial questioning. Thank you.

Narcissus is well-known. Can you elabourate on the Inquisitor archetype? Where did you read about this, or have you named it yourself? I see "moral and family values" being viciously advocated for on both sides of the relevant divide. I see judgement on both sides. I see violence on both sides. And I see faith (in certain utopian doctrines related to a certain late bearded man) that have been used to justify the largest atrocities the world has ever seen. So, the Inquisitor is alive and well and on both sides.

[Bohandas]

In essence, you are correct! Change does not exist. All moments of time happen simultaneously in the universe, because time is an illusion constructed by organic matter that can't see the universe properly. Any changes I appear to be making in this thread are not, in fact, changes, as they were always present. We have simply shifted perspectives such that you can observe them right now.

There is no beginning or ending to the universe, because the concept of a beginning is a human construction, and not a fundamental truth.

That's phrased in an obtuse fashion, I think. I think the point is that time is just another dimension. The future is already out there just like the moon is out there (Friv's point that is; I haven;t actually watched the linked video due to limited time and limited data, but I am familiar with the idea of an unchanging 4d block universe which viewed from the outside is an unchanging four-dimensional object

EDIT:
NVM, apparently only the first part of the artivle loaded the first time I glanced through it. The rest of the article appears to be advocating Last-Thursdayism

[Kantaki]

Although I grasp your need to virtue-signal against me in front of the crowd rather than consider a more nuanced view of people who are not southpaws, I appreciate your answering the gist of my initial questioning.

What has being left-handed to do this?
Please tell be it's nothing I have to feel insulted for.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

That's phrased in an obtuse fashion, I think. I think the point is that time is just another dimension. The future is already out there just like the moon is out there (Friv's point that is; I haven;t actually watched the linked video due to limited time and limited data, but I am familiar with the idea of an unchanging 4d block universe which viewed from the outside is an unchanging four-dimensional object

See my reaction to that post, the point the scientist it's about is trying to make, as far as I can tell, is that time is not another dimension. The past doesn't exist anymore, you can't travel to it, there's only a right now universe and it keeps changing. This means that concepts like time dilution (the twin paradox) need to be rethought and explained some other way, because fast people can't be traveling through time at a slower pace than the rest of us..

[Zurvan]

Although I grasp your need to virtue-signal against me in front of the crowd rather than consider a more nuanced view of people who are not southpaws, I appreciate your answering the gist of my initial questioning. Thank you.

Narcissus is well-known. Can you elabourate on the Inquisitor archetype? Where did you read about this, or have you named it yourself? I see "moral and family values" being viciously advocated for on both sides of the relevant divide. I see judgement on both sides. I see violence on both sides. And I see faith (in certain utopian doctrines related to a certain late bearded man) that have been used to justify the largest atrocities the world has ever seen. So, the Inquisitor is alive and well and on both sides.

I saw you advocating a totalitarian Russian inspired regime that would take away LGBT rights since they don't deserve them, I will take all the possibilities to attack on your person as I can, to be someone who says the things you said is to be an abhorrent human being, but just because I don't like you as a person that doesn't make it impossible for us to share ideas, maybe it will even change your backwards views of humanity, probably not but anyway.

It was mentioned on The Archive for Research in Archetypal Symbolism (ARAS) but I have elaborated it myself.

Indeed "both sides" are being represented in the inquisitor, I assume you mean the left and right? Both groups have "Join us, either you are with us or you are the enemy worse than Satan" mentality.

The archetypes are named after figures that give a face to all its characteristics but as it was said before they are timeless, just as the Kafkaesque form of literature existed before Kafka but only after him we could name the feeling caused by this form of literature, we had lovecraftian element’s before Lovecraft but only after him we are able to name it.

We had this form of archetype before the inquisition but the figure of the inquisitor is the one that best incorporate all the elements of intolerance, hate and self-righteous we see on most people today, both from the "right" and "left".

This politic of extremisms is something that goes beyond the historical inquisition and deals with the concept of hunting for witches and heretics (AKA: Anyone who is looks or thinks differently from you).

It's present in the west Baptist church just as it's on conservative politicians, it's on the Christians just as it's on the Muslims, it's on the conservatives just as it's on the liberals, it's on the racists just as it's on the LGBT activists, it's on the SJWs just as it's on the feminists, it's on the nerds just as it's sports fans. Etc..

The inquisitor it’s just the name that best illustrates the concept, it has nothing to do with being catholic, just as the vampire archetype has nothing to do with Transylvania or the Narcissistic archetype has nothing to do with being Greek. It’s just a concept.

Also it’s, judgment and elaborate not judgement and elabourate.

[Ronnoc]

See my reaction to that post, the point the scientist it's about is trying to make, as far as I can tell, is that time is not another dimension. The past doesn't exist anymore, you can't travel to it, there's only a right now universe and it keeps changing. This means that concepts like time dilution (the twin paradox) need to be rethought and explained some other way, because fast people can't be traveling through time at a slower pace than the rest of us..

This is unfortunately simply wrong. The predictions of special and general relativity have been repeatedly experimentally confirmed. We have examples of them occuring every day, from the gps in your phone depending on corrections in time measurements from general relativity, to the fact that high energy particles from the sun are only capable of being detected due to time dilation as the trip from the sun is significantly longer than their lifetime without that correction.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

This is unfortunately simply wrong. The predictions of special and general relativity have been repeatedly experimentally confirmed. We have examples of them occuring every day, from the gps in your phone depending on corrections in time measurements from general relativity, to the fact that high energy particles from the sun are only capable of being detected due to time dilation as the trip from the sun is significantly longer than their lifetime without that correction.

I'm not saying an effect like time dilation doesn't exist, it very demonstrably does. However, if I understand the story about this guy correctly after 5 minutes of googling (and I probably don't, that's why I'm a biologist) he states that there are alternate explanations to these sort of effects, and he claims thinking about it in that way will solve some important problems physicists currently get stuck on.

there are some archetypes that are dying and others are being reborn

(Nothing else to contribute to that for now.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm not saying an effect like time dilation doesn't exist, it very demonstrably does. However, if I understand the story about this guy correctly after 5 minutes of googling (and I probably don't, that's why I'm a biologist) he states that there are alternate explanations to these sort of effects, and he claims thinking about it in that way will solve some important problems physicists currently get stuck on.

In the ancient days of the Internet of a couple of decades ago, there was a game where you could rate how much of a crank someone was. There was a document with points to be given. Claiming that Einstein/general relativity is wrong was worth quite a few points, if no actual proof was presented. I wish I could find that document, but I'm having no luck with my googling today (in this and a number of other unrelated topics).

Bottom line is, there is a Nobel price waiting for this guy if he manages to prove his claims. But sincerely, it sounds like a walking violation of Ockham's razor to me.

GW

[Lvl 2 Expert]

In the ancient days of the Internet of a couple of decades ago, there was a game where you could rate how much of a crank someone was. There was a document with points to be given. Claiming that Einstein/general relativity is wrong was worth quite a few points, if no actual proof was presented. I wish I could find that document, but I'm having no luck with my googling today (in this and a number of other unrelated topics).

Bottom line is, there is a Nobel price waiting for this guy if he manages to prove his claims. But sincerely, it sounds like a walking violation of Ockham's razor to me.

GW

We've talked a lot about how skepticism of things that go against important theories with lots of supporting evidence is a good thing in this thread, and it is, but there is a flip side. If no physicists at all would be trying to find alternative explanations to the main theories because they're busy dogmatically following them that would be a bad thing. He's probably wrong, but on the off chance he isn't his work could be extremely valuable, and even if he's just plain wrong as is most likely, it could still help provide new insights. This is not a guy with a homepage about how atoms are space ships, this is a guy who's wikipedia page has paragraphs like this:

Along with physicist Bruno Bertotti, Barbour developed a technique called "best matching" for deriving gravitational equations directly from astronomical measurements of objects’ spatial relations with each other. Published in 1982, the method describes gravitational effects as accurately as Einstein's general relativity, but without the need for a "background" grid of spacetime. According to physicist David Wiltshire at the University of Canterbury in New Zealand, such a truly Machian or relational approach could explain the appearance of an accelerated expansion of the universe without invoking a causative agent such as dark energy.[4]

I don't claim to understand what it says, but if he's found a mathematical way to explain inflation without dark energy that's probably tremendously helpful, and it could lead future researchers to brilliant new insights. There is a very real chance that dark energy doesn't exist or not in the way we think of it after all. Similar to dark matter (which as I understand is a much stronger theory than dark energy, yet not uncontested) it's an incredibly well fitting theory because when doing your calculations you can model all sorts of different distributions of dark energy and then just pick the one that fits best and claim the dark energy theory predicted that situation perfectly. If it turns out there is a more elegant explanation that would be pretty huge.

And this is where a rogue physicist, and luckily there are plenty of them, is different from a flat earther: this guys ideas are hard to disprove and potentially very useful. He is going against "the experts" because he is an expert, at the very least sort of, and finds other ways to interpret the data. Going against the grain is not stupid if you're not going about it stupid by latching onto questions all of us had in second grade and just decide that the real answer must be wrong and must not be heard.

By the way, why am I defending a person I have to address as "this guy" because I'm so unfamiliar with his work I keep forgetting his name?

[Donnadogsoth]

I saw you advocating a totalitarian Russian inspired regime that would take away LGBT rights since they don't deserve them, I will take all the possibilities to attack on your person as I can, to be someone who says the things you said is to be an abhorrent human being, but just because I don't like you as a person that doesn't make it impossible for us to share ideas, maybe it will even change your backwards views of humanity, probably not but anyway.

No, the USSR killing 30 million people was totalitarian. Russia today is merely authoritarian, as was Franco's Spain.

My suggestions on rainbow rights comes at a time when Traditional civilisation is struggling with how to preserve itself amidst the ongoing dissolving torrent of weirdness and cultural Marxism. But, that's near {Rules}, so, I'll leave it at that.

I appreciate your being willing to talk to an enemy. If you're my enemy I suppose it's impossible not for me to technically be yours. It only takes one to tango, so to speak. Nevertheless it is good to exchange ideas, one never knows wherefrom insight cometh.

It was mentioned on The Archive for Research in Archetypal Symbolism (ARAS) but I have elaborated it myself.

Indeed "both sides" are being represented in the inquisitor, I assume you mean the left and right? Both groups have "Join us, either you are with us or you are the enemy worse than Satan" mentality.

The archetypes are named after figures that give a face to all its characteristics but as it was said before they are timeless, just as the Kafkaesque form of literature existed before Kafka but only after him we could name the feeling caused by this form of literature, we had lovecraftian element’s before Lovecraft but only after him we are able to name it.

We had this form of archetype before the inquisition but the figure of the inquisitor is the one that best incorporate all the elements of intolerance, hate and self-righteous we see on most people today, both from the "right" and "left".

This politic of extremisms is something that goes beyond the historical inquisition and deals with the concept of hunting for witches and heretics (AKA: Anyone who is looks or thinks differently from you).

It's present in the west Baptist church just as it's on conservative politicians, it's on the Christians just as it's on the Muslims, it's on the conservatives just as it's on the liberals, it's on the racists just as it's on the LGBT activists, it's on the SJWs just as it's on the feminists, it's on the nerds just as it's sports fans. Etc..

The inquisitor it’s just the name that best illustrates the concept, it has nothing to do with being catholic, just as the vampire archetype has nothing to do with Transylvania or the Narcissistic archetype has nothing to do with being Greek. It’s just a concept.

Thank you. It's a good concept, and overlaps with the True Believer archetype, I suppose a weaponised True Believer.

What archetypes do you suppose exist in the Hellraiser mythos? Pinhead strikes a bit of an Inquisitorial pose, it seems. And the God of Hell, Leviathan, what is he an archetype of?

Also it’s, judgment and elaborate not judgement and elabourate.

This site is rich. You can tolerate 900 genders but when someone spells English words in a very traditional yet eminently readable fashion, he is corrected.

[HalfTangible]

You can tolerate 900 genders but when someone spells English words in a very traditional yet eminently readable fashion, he is corrected.

1) Social Justice is a dumb concept that causes more discrimination than it stops.
2) There are two genders in the human species.
3) You are being an asshat.

These three statements can all be true at once.

And yes, people on this site care more about grammar and proper spelling from someone trying to act intellectual than how triggered you get at the sight of 'xir'. That's what happens on a board founded primarily for a well-written webcomic about stick figures and DND

[Mystic Muse]

This site is rich. You can tolerate 900 genders but when someone spells English words in a very traditional yet eminently readable fashion, he is corrected.

There are pleeeeenty of people who are on this site who want nothing to do with LGBTA people. It's just that assaulting a person's identity is against the rules, correcting someone's grammar on the other hand might not be.

Of course, if you feel you are being flamed, trolled, or that a poster's behavior is otherwise against the rules, by all means report them.

[Heliomance]

This site is rich. You can tolerate 900 genders but when someone spells English words in a very traditional yet eminently readable fashion, he is corrected.

Judgement is indeed the British spelling, but (speaking as a Brit), elabourate has never been right.

[Ramza00]

This site is rich. You can tolerate 900 genders but when someone spells English words in a very traditional yet eminently readable fashion, he is corrected.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Thanks Donnadogsoth for reminding me of a mnemonic PRAISE ME (it is used in the medical field)

• Provocative (or seductive) behavior
• Relationships are considered more intimate than they actually are
• Attention-seeking
• Influenced easily by others or circumstances
• Speech (style) wants to impress; lacks detail
• Emotional lability; shallowness
• _
• Make-up; physical appearance is used to draw attention to self
• Exaggerated emotions; theatrical

I mean it is not every day I get to use the word vivacious and have it actually be relevant, and that is one of the reasons to be alive to have little moments like this to bring a chuckle to the lips.

[Donnadogsoth]

Judgement is indeed the British spelling, but (speaking as a Brit), elabourate has never been right.

I stand corrected. Thanks.

[Donnadogsoth]

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

I've responded, I think, once in this entire thread, defending my spellings. What would be "protesting too little" to you?

Thanks Donnadogsoth for reminding me of a mnemonic PRAISE ME (it is used in the medical field)

• Provocative (or seductive) behavior
• Relationships are considered more intimate than they actually are
• Attention-seeking
• Influenced easily by others or circumstances
• Speech (style) wants to impress; lacks detail
• Emotional lability; shallowness
• _
• Make-up; physical appearance is used to draw attention to self
• Exaggerated emotions; theatrical

I mean it is not every day I get to use the word vivacious and have it actually be relevant, and that is one of the reasons to be alive to have little moments like this to bring a chuckle to the lips.

You're smarter than me. So, I don't get it. Care to be more explicit?

[Razade]

You're smarter than me. So, I don't get it. Care to be more explicit?

He's saying you have Histrionic personality disorder. Or at least you lean to it. You need to fit five of the criteria and I don't think anyone here can really assess that.