LGBTAitp - Part Twelve

[Mystic Muse]

But that doesn't make them any less of people. Everyone is a person, so does any one of us have the right to say whether the world would be better off without them? It might be in the short term to you, but everyone has a connection to someone, and just as your life may feel better because of that death, another person's life may be broken and destroyed, dreams that were built up demolished because of the death.

Death is one of the least simple topics that a person can deal with.

Yes, I'm aware. I don't think I can talk about this without going beyond board rules, so I'm just going to drop it.

[turkishproverb]

This I need to correct. Sex and gender are the exact same thing, even the dictionary says so.

What dictionary? Definitions can vary pretty heavily depending upon the dictionary and the depth it goes into.

[Coidzor]

The conflicted feelings one feels about death, especially that of a loved one who has willed one money.

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That's not death. You're talking about the reactions of the living to death rather than death itself. I mentioned the finality of death.

Mostly because I can't stand absolutes.

Death is one of the least simple topics that a person can deal with.

For discussing, maybe. Actually dealing with it is, while generally unpleasant, rather straightforward.

[Vaynor]

OR, just remember that it's all a money-making exercise by Hallmark, and mock all those silly people buying into their cynical scheme.

And then stock up on cheap chocolate the day after.

Valentine's Day started before Hallmark existed, and long before greeting cards were ever even being mass-produced (there's a margin of about 60-70 years).

[Serpentine]

edit @ ^: Sure, but was it so obsenely a cynical money-making scene back then, or was it more of a saint's holiday?

I thought gender was an obsolete biological contruct that's supposed to make sure we have more organic lawn-mowers and walking devices?

As I've determined before, I have 3 definitions of gender:
1. The obsolete social constructs of expectations and assumptions artificially bound to sex that may or may not have any intrinsic relation to nature - "women should be nurturers".
2. The biological observation of traits and tendencies associated with, but not exclusive to, each of the sexes - "women tend to be more "nurturing" than many men".
3. A transexual's preferred sex, as opposed to their biological. Not relevant here, and I don't use it very much.

So, the biological observation is still relevant, but the cultural construct is not.

What about individuals who do not buy into the obsolete concept of gender, but who nonetheless identify with the gender that corresponds to their biological sex ?

Then you're an individual who does not buy into the obsolete concept of gender for whom they happen to fit reasonably well.

However, the linguistic customs of the English language make constantly referring to someone by their name and eschewing pronouns sound awkward and contrived. Japanese can manage it, English not so much.

Gender (except in definition 3, above) has nothing to do with gendered pronouns. If a man is "feminine" by cultural expectations, but still considers themself male, then you use "he" for him.

[Worira]

And why is someone's preferred sex only their gender if they're transsexual? If I'm biologically male, why don't I get to decide that my gender is also male, regardless of my behaviour?

[Rawhide]

What dictionary? Definitions can vary pretty heavily depending upon the dictionary and the depth it goes into.

Merriam-Webster (an Encyclopaedia Britannica company), WordWeb.info, Dictionary.com Unabridged (Based on the Random House Dictionary), Wikipedia, Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, The American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary, WordNet (Princeton University), American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Collins Thesaurus of the English Language, Oxford, Encarta World English Dictionary, the list goes on.

Most of them also address the new meanings of the word (which did not become widespread until the 1970s, according to Wikipedia), but some do not. Most of them also address an even older definition, to do with grammar.

I would also very much appreciate if you quoted and addressed the entire context, rather than that one simple line.

[Coidzor]

Y'know, I'm starting to think there's some different definitions of obsolete being used here.

Edit: Heh. I just realized something mildly pertinent while looking at the list of thread titles on the sub-forum page.

When we say genderbent, as in that genderbent avatar thread and week we've got going on, we mean giving someone a sex change rather than to spontaneously make them trans by having them experience body dysphoria.

[Heliomance]

My life would be so much easier if people could grasp this.

Also, that's a very concise way to say it. I shall steal your wording, if it's alright with you.

Not my wording, don't remember where I got it from.

[rayne_dragon]

A lot of liturature that has to deal with the complexities of non-binary gender will often state the specific definitions being used in the work for the words "sex" and "gender" - regardless of how they are defined in a dictionary.

Also: in regards to terms for people in between genders - the two words I know that are commonly used are "intersex" and "genderqueer" although they both are kind of specific in who they refer to. If the issue was as to pronouns, I'd like to note that while linguistically I promote singular they, there are also a whole wonderful host of gender neutral pronouns - a link to which is provided in my sig.

If you have an Y chromosone you're a boy and if not the you're a girl, simple.

Yeah... this doesn't work. Specifically, I can point to Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS) as disproof. Someone with CAIS has XY chromosomes and even goes as far as to develop testicles rather than ovaries, but otherwise develops as female unitl puberty. At which point the lack of underarm (and other) hair growth becomes a notable discreprency. Interestingly, it would appear the majority of CAIS individuals identify as women even after finding out about the Y chromosome and 'male' gonads. Which would be nice proof that gender is based on how your raised or what is between your legs except that CAIS seems to be an exception amongst intersex conditions in that there appears is a strong consistency in self-determined gender identity.

And do not let me started on Chimerism...

[Coidzor]

If the issue was as to pronouns, I'd like to note that while linguistically I promote singular they, there are also a whole wonderful host of gender neutral pronouns - a link to which is provided in my sig.

Which is a problem in and of itself. Very few people are willing to learn a new second language that consists entirely of pronouns.

And do not let me started on Chimerism...

Two people being bashed together in the womb is always going to be messy.

[Serpentine]

And why is someone's preferred sex only their gender if they're transsexual? If I'm biologically male, why don't I get to decide that my gender is also male, regardless of my behaviour?

What? Those are three distinct definitions. The third one is purely for ease of discussion - when discussing transexuality, it is convenient to have two different terms for biological and preferred sex, and gender can be useful for the latter.
If you're biologically male, and you consider your gender male, then... you're male Your behaviour doesn't come into it. Which is, you know, my point.

[rayne_dragon]

Which is a problem in and of itself. Very few people are willing to learn a new second language that consists entirely of pronouns.

Well, I wouldn't say they qualify as a second language, but they are rather user-unfriendly. I don't even bother with "xem" at all, even though it technically is one of the forms of my pronoun of choice.

Two people being bashed together in the womb is always going to be messy.

What's even messier is the science around it. Estimates of frequency that I've heard range from 40 people in the world to one in eight people.

Also, I should note that both of us have been refering to Tetragametic Chimersim. Other types of Chimerism can result from transplants or just from standard pregnacies and are not as messy.

[BisectedBrioche]

Also, I should note that both of us have been refering to Tetragametic Chimersim. Other types of Chimerism can result from transplants or just from standard pregnacies and are not as messy.

There's also transplanted tree branches, technically.

[unosarta]

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That's not death. You're talking about the reactions of the living to death rather than death itself. I mentioned the finality of death.

Mostly because I can't stand absolutes.

How is the reaction to death not an intrinsic part of death? That is like saying, "relationships are not complicated, it is how people react to them that is."

For discussing, maybe. Actually dealing with it is, while generally unpleasant, rather straightforward.

Really?

Let me give you a personal anecdote so that we are no longer "discussing" it, and actually giving personal examples.

One of my personal friends' friend died several years ago. I was friends with my friend at the time, and he had a hard time of it. His friend had been shot in a drive-by, for completely unrelated reasons (wrong place, wrong time). My friend became bitter for a long time about gang related activities, and I entirely understood his perspective. However, he goes to a school that is filled with gang activity, and people get in fights over gang related topics all. The. Time. He continues to stay at said school, even though the suspected killers of his best friend go to that school.

He had it mostly dealt with, and mostly done. Then, a few weeks ago, we found out that apparently it might have been a different gang entirely, opening up the old wounds, and creating new ones.

I didn't even know this person, and I am intimately affected by his death.

I could give you several others, but they are all very personal (not to me, but the point remains).

[CrimsonAngel]

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One of my personal friends' friend died several years ago. I was friends with my friend at the time, and he had a hard time of it. His friend had been shot in a drive-by, for completely unrelated reasons (wrong place, wrong time). My friend became bitter for a long time about gang related activities, and I entirely understood his perspective. However, he goes to a school that is filled with gang activity, and people get in fights over gang related topics all. The. Time. He continues to stay at said school, even though the suspected killers of his best friend go to that school.

He had it mostly dealt with, and mostly done. Then, a few weeks ago, we found out that apparently it might have been a different gang entirely, opening up the old wounds, and creating new ones.

I didn't even know this person, and I am intimately affected by his death.

I could give you several others, but they are all very personal (not to me, but the point remains).

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I still hate people who drink after some ass hole hit my friend with his car. After he ran a stop sign. It was, like, 2pm. She broke her spine and he was charged with manslaughter, later with murder.
(I really hate people.)

[unosarta]

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I still hate people who drink after some ass hole hit my friend with his car. After he ran a stop sign. It was, like, 2pm. She broke her spine and he was charged with manslaughter, later with murder.
(I really hate people.)

I am really sorry man.

I really hate people who mug a man who is just walking on the street for all $40 dollars in his wallet and leave him on the ground to die. This happened to one of my former friends' dad, and we haven't spoken in a conversation longer than 3 sentences to each other since, after knowing each other for some 6 years.

[CrimsonAngel]

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I am really sorry man.

I really hate people who mug a man who is just walking on the street for all $40 dollars in his wallet and leave him on the ground to die. This happened to one of my former friends' dad, and we haven't spoken in a conversation longer than 3 sentences to each other since, after knowing each other for some 6 years.

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Gosh, now I really have high hopes for humanity.

On an unrelated note: Why do most of my straiht friends not want a baby but I want to be a daddy ssoooo bad?

[unosarta]

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Gosh, now I really have high hopes for humanity.

Isn't it great?

On an unrelated note: Why do most of my straiht friends not want a baby but I want to be a daddy ssoooo bad?

They will. You are in highschool. People rarely actually want children when they are younger, thinking that their lives are ahead of them, and that they have a long time. Also, there is a large social pressure to not have kids when you are young (which brings up a strange point about how society/evolutionary standards seems to shoehole pregnancies into the 20-late 30's range, for some reason [forties/fifties being the point when women start not being fertile]).

[Worira]

What? Those are three distinct definitions. The third one is purely for ease of discussion - when discussing transexuality, it is convenient to have two different terms for biological and preferred sex, and gender can be useful for the latter.
If you're biologically male, and you consider your gender male, then... you're male Your behaviour doesn't come into it. Which is, you know, my point.

Except that according to those definitions, that wouldn't be the case. To break it down:

As I've determined before, I have 3 definitions of gender:
1. The obsolete social constructs of expectations and assumptions artificially bound to sex that may or may not have any intrinsic relation to nature - "women should be nurturers".
2. The biological observation of traits and tendencies associated with, but not exclusive to, each of the sexes - "women tend to be more "nurturing" than many men".

Whether an individual identifies as male or not doesn't impact their gender, by this definition.

3. A transexual's preferred sex, as opposed to their biological. Not relevant here, and I don't use it very much.

And by this one, what gender they identify is only relevant if they're transsexual.

[Serpentine]

I... honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make. I think gender is largely irrelevant in the modern world, and that it shouldn't have any impact on a person's self-identity.

[Danne]

For discussing, maybe. Actually dealing with it is, while generally unpleasant, rather straightforward.

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Um... What? It's not straightforward, it's a maelstrom. You take one step forward, a dozen back. You're perfectly fine one moment and the next you're in tears. You go a few weeks thinking the pain is gone and then you suddenly realize something in a way you hadn't before and you're back to ground one. You go in circles, writhe around for a days or weeks or months, and years down the line there's still a hole where the person was, even if you've mostly recovered by then. How on earth is that straightforward?

So, here's something I've been struggling with. I'm sure some of you remember the debacle with my cousin's wedding and Mum insisting I wear a dress. Nothing's changed in that regard -- the plan is still to find a fancy skirt/shirt combo that'll satisfy us both -- but it's taken me this long to be able to get passed being angry and upset in order to think about some of her ideas.

My mom (who, as I've mentioned before, is great about LGBs but not so much with Ts) is of the opinion that a person crossdressing (let's skip over the fact that a transperson who is "crossdressing" is actually wearing the correct clothing, for the sake of simplicity) has to understand that their choice of dress makes other people uncomfortable. People are uncomfortable with the idea of a man in a dress, and though this is news to me apparently a lot of people are still wigged out by the idea of a woman in a tux. Since a wedding is about showering attention on the bridge (and the groom, but really, it's about the bride, or some I'm told) choosing to do something that draws attention to yourself (by making people uncomfortable) is selfish because it draws attention away from the bridge (and groom, him too), and that therefore even if a person is trans someone who is biologically male should be in a tux and someone who is biologically female should be in a dress (or, grudgingly, a fancy skirt).

I can...sort of understand that perspective, with the idea that you're supposed to be all about the couple who's getting married. I do not understand why someone's choice of clothing makes people uncomfortable, because that seems silly to me, but that's a conversation for a different day. I do not understand the idea that I (or anyone) should do something that makes me Extremely Uncomfortable just to make other people happy. I do not like this idea. It rubs my proverbial fur the wrong way, makes me feel all gross and icky, and I do not understand it.

So I do not know what to think, and was hoping other people would have an opinion.

[unosarta]

A marriage is about the bride and groom being happy and nothing more. I heard a very interesting quote a while ago about marriages

"Honestly, I have never understood why people place so much emphasis on the wedding day being the 'happiest day of the groom and bride's life.' If the marriage is the happiest moment, then their marriage will be entirely down hill from their, which is a terrible way to think about a marriage, and about life in general. You may have fond memories of your marriage, but if it is the best thing in your life, then it is likely you will spend all of your time thinking about it and not dealing with the problems you have in your marriage."

It was in an advice column, and it seems to hold water.

Marriage shouldn't be about "showing anyone off." It should be about everyone being happy. I think you should try to find a way to contact the bride/groom, and ask them what they think of it. If they do not know you are T, then things could get awkward, but only as awkward as you simply going to them in the formalwear or whatevs. But honestly, explain to them what you feel like doing, and then have them contact your mother. If she continues to complain, then she isn't doing it because of the wedding, but because she is transphobic/intolerant, let's be honest.

[Mystic Muse]

I do not understand the idea that I (or anyone) should do something that makes me Extremely Uncomfortable just to make other people happy. I do not like this idea. It rubs my proverbial fur the wrong way, makes me feel all gross and icky, and I do not understand it.

Neither do I.

As for the thing about not drawing attention, people will really care about a girl being in a Tux? If that happened I'd think it was odd for a moment and then move on. Even then, I'd only think it was odd because all the girls in the family wear dresses.

[rayne_dragon]

*snip*

Usually, I'm against people having to do something they are uncomfortable with, but weddings, oddly, are one of those occasions where doing something that makes you "Extremely Uncomfortable" might be considerate/required. Bridesmaids often have to dress in the most hideous, appallingly-coloured dresses for the sake of the bride. Personally, in your situation, I'd ask the bride if she'd mind if I wore a nice tux and abide by her decision.

I don't know if it'd help, but maybe you could find a way to wear pants underneath if that would help make things more comfortable. Or maybe pass a kilt off as a skirt?

In other situations where the focus isn't on someone else (ie: outside of weddings, funerals, work, and the like) what you wear is your business and people who make it their business are being jerks.

Also, since we're on the topic of weddings, I would not constrain people to wear conventional wedding attire. I even had an idea for my bridesmaids to wear halloween costumes type attire. There was even a friend of mine that I wanted to dress up in armour if she were to be my bridesmaid. I kinda want to invite you to my wedding, should I ever have one, now, just so you can go to one wearing whatever you please.

[Coidzor]

On an unrelated note: Why do most of my straiht friends not want a baby but I want to be a daddy ssoooo bad?

Their age. You're still young. Why do you want to have a child so badly at your age?

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Um... What? It's not straightforward, it's a maelstrom. You take one step forward, a dozen back. You're perfectly fine one moment and the next you're in tears. You go a few weeks thinking the pain is gone and then you suddenly realize something in a way you hadn't before and you're back to ground one. You go in circles, writhe around for a days or weeks or months, and years down the line there's still a hole where the person was, even if you've mostly recovered by then. How on earth is that straightforward?

Hopefully this clears things up a bit.

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How is the reaction to death not an intrinsic part of death? That is like saying, "relationships are not complicated, it is how people react to them that is."

By the same token that the reactions of conservatives to gays having sex is not intrinsic to gays having sex.

It's secondhand. Unless you're the one dying, you're not actually dealing with death itself. I hope this clarifies my meaning a bit more.

Really?

Yeah. When we truly deal with death personally, we are the dead. Grief, mourning, the after effects of someone dying... Side effects, ripples, secondhand, indirect.

We are mortal. We die. Quite simple.

[Mecharious]

So, after a long break from dating, I'm in a relationship with a bisexual guy. For some reason, this is making me a bit uncomfortable; I don't think I'm biphobic, but I'm a bit worried about awkward situations coming up. I guess it doesn't help that he's been around the block a lot... or is into some freaky things.

I don't know, maybe I'm just overly nervous. Has anyone here who's straight or gay dated a bisexual before? It's not really any different, is it?

[unosarta]

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By the same token that the reactions of conservatives to gays having sex is not intrinsic to gays having sex.

It's secondhand. Unless you're the one dying, you're not actually dealing with death itself. I hope this clarifies my meaning a bit more.

I would say that the way that someone reacts to death is still a part of death itself. People live their lives leading up to death in fear of death, because it is a natural human reaction to do so. This also affects how, exactly, they die.

Yeah. When we truly deal with death personally, we are the dead. Grief, mourning, the after effects of someone dying... Side effects, ripples, secondhand, indirect.

We are mortal. We die. Quite simple.

Newton's Third Law of Forces, and the Force Laws in general seem to apply strangely well here.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Forces come in pairs, are equal, and in an opposite direction.

Basically, the first Force Law is what I am getting at here. The reaction is as important as the action itself. When you research an event in history, you do look at the event, but at the same time, you also look at how the event affects people. When you talk about the topic of Gay Rights, you don't just talk about what gay people want for their rights, you talk about how the movement itself affects others. Whenever there is a social issue (which death inevitably becomes), one cannot truly look at the action by itself, but also the reaction.

[Danne]

Hopefully this clears things up a bit. ... It's secondhand. Unless you're the one dying, you're not actually dealing with death itself. I hope this clarifies my meaning a bit more.

Yes, that clears it up nicely. I see what you mean now.

@unsorta and raynedragon: I'm not particularly close to my cousin, is the thing. We never see each other outside of family events, and even that is growing less frequent because she moved to Florida and has a full time job that won't grant her much vacation time (seriously, they wouldn't let her come up for our grandfather's funeral ). I have no idea what her fiancé even looks like. Asking would require a phonecall, and I'm a terrified of telephones, and I'm not out to her (or anyone IRL) making it even more awkward. I don't think I could handle it.

And I think there's a difference between "wear this ugly dress to make the bridge look pretty" and "wear this thing that makes you feel like a total freak who is oppressed by society and rubs in your face that fact that your body is completely wrong, on top of being physically uncomfortable"? Or maybe not? I hate people, they're too complicated.

[golentan]

Mecharious: I have some experience from the other side. In general, worrying about things before they have come up is bad juju. For example, I've noticed people tend to start questioning my fidelity when they find out I'm bi. To the point that commenting someone's attractive starts inspiring weird looks, when a similar comment to a gender they had previously known I was attracted to had not. So, on behalf of bi folks everywhere please don't be "that guy."

Exes are just exes, also, and can be dealt with appropriately for exes regardless of gender. Whether that means friends or snide comments or a restraining order and body armor. I hope that last one isn't relevant.

Apart from that, kink... umm... I have no good advice for how to deal with "freaky things" as I assume you mean them. If it makes you uncomfortable, that's probably a good conversation to have sooner than later with him?