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2013-06-12, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
What is the highest level in D&D? What can a characters level grow to and is it the same level cap in a non-homebrew game?
Furthermore, what is the minimum level assumed for xykon and redcloak?
What could be an assumed minimum level and size group to take on xykon with redcloak abd company as of right now minus the monster in the darkness?
Ignoring the oots as they are not as strong as they could be, what is an efficient set up you'd use at minimum to take on the bad guys?
I don't know D&D very well, so I'd like to hear from many sides in a passionate discussion.
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2013-06-12, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
Infinity.
and is it the same level cap in a non-homebrew game?
Furthermore, what is the minimum level assumed for xykon and redcloak?
For the rest...I am afraid I cannot help you.Last edited by Kish; 2013-06-14 at 04:43 AM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-06-12, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
There is no level cap in D&D. Most of the 'base classes' have rules for how they progress after the character reaches level 20, ensuring they keep gaining some bonuses pertaining to the class i.e. fighters still get more bonus feats after level 20. Because of this, it is possible to create a Level 1000 Wizard (hint: don't pick a fight with it). It is also possible to create a character with multiple levels in several different base classes and who has progressed through several prestige classes; however, there are restrictions to some classes based on alignment, so a character cannot have levels in every single class.
Redcloak is believed to be Level 17, as he first gained use of 9th-level spells here. Xykon is known to be epic (level 21+), but his exact level is hard to place, because epic levels are much harder to differentiate between than earlier levels. There are multiple threads on the topic of what level he might be, none of which present conclusive evidence, but you should feel free to check them out if you're interested.
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2013-06-12, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
There is no level cap in D&D. However 20+ is considered "Epic" and functions under some different rules. On a related note the most powerful Gods and such in D&D are usually around level 60 or so (they also have tons of bonuses for being Gods though)
Furthermore, what is the minimum level assumed for xykon and redcloak?
What could be an assumed minimum level and size group to take on xykon with redcloak abd company as of right now minus the monster in the darkness?
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2013-06-12, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
It really depends on which edition of D&D you're playing.
The 3.X rules (3rd edition and 3.5) which the "OotS" comic is slightly based on assumes that Player Characters begin play at 1st level and progress to 20th level. This is referred to as "character level". At each level after 1st, the player decides whether to continue to advance in the same class or take a level in a different base class or in a prestige class. A 1st level Fighter who multiclasses to Rogue at 2nd level is a Fighter 1/Rogue 1 (and is considered Character level 2).
When a player character reaches character level 20, the PC can only advance using the Epic Level rules. Epic Levels begin at Character level 21, and continue with no end.
In other editions of D&D there are different rules. In AD&D you begin at 1st level (unless using some of the rules from Unearthed Arcana, in which case you might start with an apprentice class and a negative XP total) and can advance to 20th level. A single module, H4 The Throne of Bloodstone gives optional rules for advancing beyond 20th level all the way to 100th level, but that was an exception.
The Basic D&D game, which was released in the late 1970's and then re-released in the early to mid 1980's, originally began at level 1 and only had rules for advancing to level three, with players being directed to AD&D if they wished to keep advancing their PCs. For reasons too complex to explain here, TSR released a series of boxed sets that overhauled Basic D&D and allowed PCs to advance from 1st level to 36th level, as well as to become "Immortals" (aka to become gods).
AD&D 2E originally began at 1st level and advanced to 20th level. In 1995 a high level supplement was released which covered PCs higher than 20th level.
Finally, D&D 4E has three tiers of play. Heroic tier begins at 1st level and continues to 10th level. At Heroic Tier the PCs mostly fight weaker monsters in dungeons, with the occasional wilderness or city adventure. Next comes Paragon Tier, covering 11th level through 20th level. At Paragon tier the PCs are no longer novice adventurers; now they are movers and shakers in the Campaign setting, advising kings, overthrowing evil despots and journeying to Sigil, City of Doors, which functions as a hub to the Multiverse. Every Paragon Tier PC has a Paragon Path they follow that defines who they are. Finally there is Epic Tier, covering 21st level through 30th level. Epic Tier PCs have incredible powers that let them defy death, perform near miraculous feats and kill superpowerful monsters. Every Epic Tier PC has an Epic Destiny and a Destiny Quest they seek to fulfill by the time they reach 30th level. Should they succeed at fulfilling their destiny, the PCs might ascend to become demigods, become imprisoned in the Shadowfell as Darklords, become legends told over by bards for centuries or become one with the universe.
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2013-06-12, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
Levels 15-20 are usually considered "high level" though. At level 17, Redcloak is possibly the most powerful living cleric in the OotS world.
Last edited by rodneyAnonymous; 2013-06-12 at 10:51 PM.
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2013-06-12, 10:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
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2013-06-12, 11:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
Actually, it doesn't need to be True Resurrection.
SpoilerResurrection works if you have even a single strand of hair from the deceased. I suspect that Lirian and Dorukan kept locks of hair or maybe nail clippings to resurrect each other with in case of premature death. This basically needs only a 13th-level caster.
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2013-06-13, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
This varies heavily depending on the setting. I have played in settings where 30 is considered low-level
At level 17, Redcloak is possibly the most powerful living cleric in the OotS world.
As for Xykon's level, we are certain he is at least level 21. Various arguments have been made that he is "probably" level 27+, and others have claimed he is "probably" level 32+. Based on evidence we just got from the most recent strip (893), we can now determine with absolute certainty that Xykon was no higher than level 47 at the end of the battle for Azure city. He is almost certainly much lower than this, probably close to level 30.
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2013-06-13, 12:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
Based on the Giant's recent description of the Order of the Scribble as low-epic, I would guess Xykon is in the mid-to-high 20s, as he defeated Dorukan and Lirian without too much difficulty (after becoming a lich, anyway), but was straight-up beaten by the beefed-up ghost of Soon. So he was likely a higher level than they were, but not by too much.
Last edited by ti'esar; 2013-06-13 at 12:39 AM.
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2013-06-13, 01:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
That wouldn't work:
For resurrection:
"… the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death." http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm
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2013-06-13, 01:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
Lirian was pretty stupid in her fight, though. I mean, she tried to use POISON on a clearly undead creature.
Dorukan likewise was pretty stupid in his fight. His opening surprise spell didn't even damage Xykon, and he went out without a Death Ward.
Both of them, despite being Epic level casters, didn't use an Epic spell in their fight against Xykon (and Dorukan even had months to research and prepare one that could have been effective against undead).
Soon had the benefit of Xykon being the stupid one - using fire and lightning against ghosts. Plus a fast flying epic melee Paladin is pretty close to a perfect counter to an evil undead caster.
Frankly, we really can't get a good read on Xykon's level from any of those 3 fights.
The 2 biggest reads on Xykon's level are the fact that he had the HP to survive Darth V's assault, and the fact he can cast Superb Dispelling.
Superb Dispelling has a DC of 59. Pretty high - maximum rank in spellcraft is level + 3, even if he has good bonuses that's a VERY high DC to make for just a level 21 character. Even if he rolled a 20 he'd need a +39 in Spellcraft. Not unreasonable, but probably pushing it for a level 21. Realistically to have the spell prepared and be reasonably sure he could cast it Xykon needs a 55+ Spellcraft total.
To take Darth V's assault, Xykon needed to take an Empowered Sunburst (25d6 * 1.5, average is 131, reflex save for half for 65), Crushing Hand (2d6+12, average is 19) backlash from Superb Dispelling (10d6, average is 35), and an Explosive Rune (6d6, average is 21) without dying. So, WITH a reflex save against Sunburst, Xykon needs to take an average of 140 hp of damage without dying. With d12's, at level 21, Xykon's average HP is at 136.5. So at level 21, his average HP are lower (but admittedly close to) the average damage he would need to take to survive Darth V. No huge help there - but if you argue that Xykon did not make his Reflex save (and it certainly didn't look like he did from his character model), he needs to survive 206 hp of damage. To get 206 hp would require him to be average level 31.
Basically, it is POSSIBLE that he's only level 21, but very unlikely. Keep in mind that he was already Epic during Start of Darkness, and since then Redcloak has gone from fairly mid-level to level 17. Xykon had to have gained a level or two at least in that time period.
Most estimates put Xykon in the mid-20's, maybe upper-20's. Almost nobody tries to justify him being over 30.
Honestly we'll probably never know exactly. The biggest factor will be how many epic spells he can cast. By definition, for each 10 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), he gets 1 epic spell. Since max rank is level+3, if he can only cast 2, he's below 27. If he can cast 3, he's above 27.Last edited by Olinser; 2013-06-13 at 01:29 AM.
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2013-06-13, 02:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2013-06-13, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
The 2 biggest reads on Xykon's level are the fact that he had the HP to survive Darth V's assault, and the fact he can cast Superb Dispelling.
Superb Dispelling has a DC of 59.
Honestly we'll probably never know exactly. The biggest factor will be how many epic spells he can cast. By definition, for each 10 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), he gets 1 epic spell. Since max rank is level+3, if he can only cast 2, he's below 27. If he can cast 3, he's above 27.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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2013-06-13, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
Even at nonepic levels, you can reasonably afford an item which gives +30 to a single skill for a measly 90,000 gold. If you intend to use epic spells, anything less than that in spellcraft is really...bad.
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2013-06-14, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
You're confusing "has not read the rulebooks" with stupid. If Undead-traits are not common knowledge in this world, their mistakes are excusable.
Dorukan's less than Xykon's less than Lirians.
How should Lirian know about undead? She's a druid. Undead are the last thing she cares about and that she wants to care about.
How should Xykon know about Ghosts? He's explicitly no nerd who reads sourcebooks and research material (Redcloak is, and he knew).
This is not "stupid". You're assuming that every character in the world has to be played by a perfeclty knowledgeble D&D-Geek player or the character is "stupid".
Dorukan should have done some more research, but maybe he had none about undead available in his dungeon and he could not really leave anymore. He was rash, but I would not say he was outright stupid because he left without Death Ward. But I do not want that silly discussion again, the point is: Just because they failed for being "non-perfectly played characters" does not make then stupid.
The assumption that all knowledge from all sourcebooks is available to every adenturer has been shown wrong in the OotS-verse.
In that regard, there's no stupidity in the characters here. In fact, I find it very good most characters lack a lot of knowledge that players usually throw around.I feel naked. You all know my stats!
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2013-06-14, 05:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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2013-06-14, 06:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
Furthermore, the availability of high-level eq is often grossly overestimated. Just ask yourself this question: if you had to spend as much XP (your experience and power) on an item, would you trade that for gold by running a shop?
There might be people who do that but the higher you need to be to create it, the lower the chance becomes someone does it. Not only because there are fewer high level people who even can create such items, but also because there are fewer people who would do it.
Every magic item then needs a story where someone created a powerful for other reasons but pure money (at least most of them) which then found their ways into the economy (the kingdom of the king who got that armour made 100s of years ago dissolved and got pundered). But this probably means you cannot go into any city, seek the most well-stocked shop and ask for an item in the range of 10000+ GP.
We're not looking at an industrialised industry - and the products sold actually come with a personal cost for the creator (no, do not ask how that economy works at all if the shopkeeper loses himself in each item he creates).
The point is: magic items are rare and even rarer the higher they become. If you want a +30 item, I'd demand of the player to research where to find something like that and then do a dungeon crawl himself to retrieve it (either form an old, forgotten place or from the king's treasury ).
You just do not walz into a shop, give up 100.000 GP and walk out.
Also, I think a good estimate is that a GP would be around "50 to 200" $ (or €). As a rough estimate, an item costing 100.000 GP would lie in the range of "millions". You do not just go to a shop (neither in the place you live nor in D&D) and buy something like that.Last edited by Copperdragon; 2013-06-14 at 06:06 AM.
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2013-06-14, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
Last edited by Olinser; 2013-06-14 at 09:47 AM.
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2013-06-14, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-06-14, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-06-14, 10:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
Eh, even the most aggressive estimates of Xykon's power didn't put him anywhere near 47, anyway.
Most people put him in the mid-20's, not very many try to justify him being in the 30s, much less the high 40's.
Honestly, on re-reading, I think the the best estimate comes from Xykon's own mouth:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html
Xykon seems to think he has about 7-8 levels on Roy, maybe a little more, which would put him about 22-25. (I forget exactly what level Roy was determined to be at that time, I think he was 15).Last edited by Olinser; 2013-06-14 at 10:22 PM.
Artist of my Avatar: http://www.deviantart.com/art/Rakrakrak-272771299ALL HAIL THE GREAT RAK!!
I use the same name in every game I ever play or forum I join (except the pretender on PSN that forced me to be RealOlinser). If you see an Olinser in a game or on a website, there's a high chance it's me, feel free to shoot me a message.
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2013-06-14, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
It puts a definite upper limit on his level, though :) Pretty sure that was the only point there. "21+" (which is what the Class and Level Geekery thread says) more accurately reflects our estimate for Xykon's level than "21-47", I think.
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2013-06-14, 11:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-06-14, 11:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
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2013-06-15, 12:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
Probably not. The Giant says in one of his WaX commentaries that Xykon actually respected Roy "in his weird way," implying that he was serious about his offer to let Roy down somewhere and let him train up some more for a "final boss fight." The offer was consistent with what we know about Xykon's personality, after all - he's bored and is always looking for something fun to do, and wishes he could have more interesting fights - so I take what he said there at face value.
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2013-06-15, 01:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
I agree that Xykon's offer was genuine.
Roy's attacks changed Xykon's mind about setting Roy down someplace.
*slash slash slash slash*
"Well OK then. If that's the way you want to be..."Last edited by rodneyAnonymous; 2013-06-15 at 01:45 AM.
I like semicolons; they make me feel smart.
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2013-06-15, 07:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
There was no explicit level cap in AD&D (except for non-humans, and for a few oddball classes such as druid and monk). It was just that most (but not all) of the combat (etc.) tables gave up at about 20. But if the DM was willing to extrapolate, which wasn't hard as the progression was very regular, you could go on ad infinitum.
Some tables (e.g. magic-user and cleric spells per day) went well past level 20 in the Player's Handbook."None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2013-06-15, 07:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
I also agree that Xykon's offer was genuine. Xykon is looking for something that is worth... err... unliving for.
A LG adversary is just what he needs. Xykon is also looking for great fights (as that makes great villains) and he knew Roy could not offer him that, so it would have been "boring" to kill him at this point.
Xykon has been looking for a purpose since we met him in SoD and he never really found it. He thought he found it in what Redcloak suggested, but that so far takes decades (and has seen some major setbacks). So an alternative isn't too bad.
Xykon does not want to get destroyed and likes to unlive, he'll cling to that with everything he's got but I think he'd also be ok with going down in a truly epic battle (in this regard he's living what Tarquin claimed to hope from Elan).I feel naked. You all know my stats!
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2013-06-15, 07:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What is the highest level in dnd? etc...
Xykon spends 8 hours a day crafting magic items, he doesn't need to find a vendor.