Relationship Woes and Advice XXVII: Sarcasm Will Not Be Tolerated

[lio45]

JNA's ex's behavior seems pretty normal to me, given that she knows he still wants her.

If one of my exes wanted to take me out for my birthday at an age where such a tête-à-tête dinner is quite an expensive gift (and usually one not offered without... hopes in mind, say), and I wasn't interested in her anymore at all except as a friend, my Lawful Good conscience would have me making absolutely sure she knows it's hopeless to have me back... if you really, really insist on treating me to an expensive gift, fine, but I want to be really clear so there's 0% chance you'll get false hopes from my acceptance -- I've moved on and not going back with you. If having another partner, that's the best way to drive that point home.

[LeSwordfish]

JNA's ex's behavior seems pretty normal to me, given that she knows he still wants her.

If one of my exes wanted to take me out for my birthday at an age where such a tête-à-tête dinner is quite an expensive gift (and usually one not offered without... hopes in mind, say), and I wasn't interested in her anymore at all except as a friend, my Lawful Good conscience would have me making absolutely sure she knows it's hopeless to have me back... if you really, really insist on treating me to an expensive gift, fine, but I want to be really clear so there's 0% chance you'll get false hopes from my acceptance -- I've moved on and not going back with you. If having another partner, that's the best way to drive that point home.

To add to this: no matter how much I might be trying to spare your feelings, there's a pretty good chance i'll accidentally blurt out something like "we're pretty serious, we're having sex tonight in fact" without realising it would be upsetting.

[Aedilred]

To add to this: no matter how much I might be trying to spare your feelings, there's a pretty good chance i'll accidentally blurt out something like "we're pretty serious, we're having sex tonight in fact" without realising it would be upsetting.

Maybe I'm weird, but I just can't imagine ever saying that to anyone under pretty much any circumstances. It seems like it's TMI no matter what, really. If in response to a direct enquiry I might be prevailed upon to answer whether such activities had previously occurred but announcing one's plans in such a manner seems gauche at best. Volunteering that, to someone who almost certainly doesn't want to know and when you know it's going to hurt their feelings, isn't something I can really comprehend.

I suppose I can give her some benefit of the doubt since we don't know the precise phrasing used, and I can understand trying to get the message across that you're no longer interested, but there are ways of telling someone you're in a serious physical relationship and then there's bluntly announcing your plans to bone someone else. It doesn't need to be quite so graphic.

[2D8HP]

...without realising it would be upsetting.

I honestly can't imagine how if one of the two still had passionate feelings for the other a couple can break up without hurt feelings.

Either one will seem blunt or "leading on/teasing"

Usually the next break-up is easier but the feelings aren't as deep.

In my (limited) experience not "falling in love" so hard is part of growing up.

Also "in love" and "loving" while similar, are not the same.

[LeSwordfish]

Maybe I'm weird, but I just can't imagine ever saying that to anyone under pretty much any circumstances. It seems like it's TMI no matter what, really. If in response to a direct enquiry I might be prevailed upon to answer whether such activities had previously occurred but announcing one's plans in such a manner seems gauche at best. Volunteering that, to someone who almost certainly doesn't want to know and when you know it's going to hurt their feelings, isn't something I can really comprehend.

I suppose I can give her some benefit of the doubt since we don't know the precise phrasing used, and I can understand trying to get the message across that you're no longer interested, but there are ways of telling someone you're in a serious physical relationship and then there's bluntly announcing your plans to bone someone else. It doesn't need to be quite so graphic.

Perhaps - I just like to give other people credit for having the same boundless ability to put their foot in it that I do.

[WarKitty]

Well, I was comparing notes with a mutual friend about the original friend I referenced. It seems he agrees with my assessment - our friend has depression, possibly brought on by a breakup, but genuine clinical depression that he's pinning his hopes on a girlfriend as the cure. He believes if he gets a girlfriend he'll all of a sudden feel better and everything will be perfect. And the corollary that if he doesn't find a girlfriend, especially as he feels he's "too old" at 29, his life is ruined.

[Knaight]

Maybe I'm weird, but I just can't imagine ever saying that to anyone under pretty much any circumstances. It seems like it's TMI no matter what, really. If in response to a direct enquiry I might be prevailed upon to answer whether such activities had previously occurred but announcing one's plans in such a manner seems gauche at best. Volunteering that, to someone who almost certainly doesn't want to know and when you know it's going to hurt their feelings, isn't something I can really comprehend.

There's definitely a cultural aspect here - I'm personally relatively prudish, but there are several groups I interact with wherein it's not unusual for people to mention that they're "getting laid", and with that background specifying as part of a clarification makes total sense.

[lio45]

Maybe I'm weird, but I just can't imagine ever saying that to anyone under pretty much any circumstances. It seems like it's TMI no matter what, really. If in response to a direct enquiry I might be prevailed upon to answer whether such activities had previously occurred but announcing one's plans in such a manner seems gauche at best. Volunteering that, to someone who almost certainly doesn't want to know and when you know it's going to hurt their feelings, isn't something I can really comprehend.

It's actually the other way around: you're volunteering that info to someone who almost certainly wants to know -- who actually NEEDS to know, even if they don't know it.

When a clingy ex, at ages where you aren't even legally adults (i.e. not swimming in spare funds), wants to treat you to a tête-à-tête dinner for your birthday, all expenses paid, it's healthy and the right / fair thing to do to make sure he knows you're having sex with another person.

[hawkboy772042]

I went on a date with a girl that seemed to go well, but later I checked out her out on Facebook and discovered that she was actually married with a kid. Should I simply just not call her back and/or tell her husband about this?

[Comrade]

I went on a date with a girl that seemed to go well, but later I checked out her out on Facebook and discovered that she was actually married with a kid. Should I simply just not call her back and/or tell her husband about this?

Are you sure you both considered it a date going into it? She may have just considered it a meetup between friends with no romantic undertones. If, on the other hand, it was clear there was more to it than that, I'd simply contact her no further. Reaching out to her family about it just seems like a really bad idea.

[hawkboy772042]

Are you sure you both considered it a date going into it? She may have just considered it a meetup between friends with no romantic undertones. If, on the other hand, it was clear there was more to it than that, I'd simply contact her no further. Reaching out to her family about it just seems like a really bad idea.

I am definetly sure about it since when I suggested meeting her at a bar in the town she lived in, she strongly suggested meeting at a bar in the town I live in. (At the time, I just assumed she didn't like that particular bar, but in hindsight that what it was).

However, thanks for the answer.

[Knaight]

I went on a date with a girl that seemed to go well, but later I checked out her out on Facebook and discovered that she was actually married with a kid. Should I simply just not call her back and/or tell her husband about this?

Depends. Do you really want to deal with the inevitable backlash here, which could easily include her husband ganging up on you?

[Liquor Box]

I went on a date with a girl that seemed to go well, but later I checked out her out on Facebook and discovered that she was actually married with a kid. Should I simply just not call her back and/or tell her husband about this?

By all means don't call her back if you don't want to, but definitely don't tell her husband about it.

[Liquor Box]

There's definitely a cultural aspect here - I'm personally relatively prudish, but there are several groups I interact with wherein it's not unusual for people to mention that they're "getting laid", and with that background specifying as part of a clarification makes total sense.

I agree with this. PLenty of people I know like to discuss their sexual exploits.

[Glass Mouse]

Depends. Do you really want to deal with the inevitable backlash here, which could easily include her husband ganging up on you?

Gonna have to agree here. A lot of people have a really strong "shoot the messenger" reaction. I'd personally not call her back (because I like being able to look myself in the eyes at the end of a day) and not call the husband (because I know nothing about their marriage - it could be abusive, it could be open, they could be divorcing, whatever).

But the husband thing is something most people have very strong feelings about, and there are good arguments on both sides. It's up to you whether "I'd wanna know if it were me" trumps "risk of inviting so much drama" for you.

[Coidzor]

Hence why an anonymous way of putting the information forward without anyone being able to connect it with one's self is generally best, especially if there's something damning like a dating site profile that lists her as single or in an open relationship falsely that one can present and allow Broseph to draw his own conclusions.

And let's face it, if she's trawling around for dates and the like, the odds are very low that a given dude is the first and only one she's messed around with. If they actually knew one another and had an interpersonal connection that lead to asking her out on a date, that'd increase the odds that she'd immediately know it was him when hubby brought the accusation up.

[Glass Mouse]

Hence why an anonymous way of putting the information forward without anyone being able to connect it with one's self is generally best, especially if there's something damning like a dating site profile that lists her as single or in an open relationship falsely that one can present and allow Broseph to draw his own conclusions.

I still don't think I would. I don't know the guy. I don't know if they have a Don't Ask Don't Tell policy. I don't know if the information might cause him to become violent (I tend to believe that even adulterers don't deserve that). I don't know if he already suspects but would really prefer to keep up the plausible deniability. I don't know if they are stupidly happy together and he would resent having that shattered. I don't know if she is a good liar who will blame the "obvious lie" on an angry ex. I don't know the guy.

My grandparents slept around like really dysfunctional bunnies, and every reveal just led to a huge fight that scared their kids, followed by a return to status quo until the next big fight. I find it hard to argue that either reveal did any good for anyone.

I mean, I get the argument. I'm reasonably sure I'd want to know (but then, I haven't to my knowledge been cheated on, so what do I know). I understand the impulse. And maybe the odds of a good outcome are high enough that it's worth the risk.

But without knowing the guy, I'm really not sure I'd do it.

[Lissou]

I would personally confront her, in case her husband knows and is fine with it. The way I see it, your side of the problem isn't whether she's cheating on her husband or not, it's the fact that she definitely wasn't honest with you. I would let her know that I learned she's married and ask why she hid it from me, and if her husband knows.

If you don't want to see her again regardless of whether she cheated or not, not contacting her is an option, but I'd still think it would be a good idea to let her know why, so that she knows it's not okay to go on dates with people and not tell them she's married and has a kid. I mean, you'd think it would come up at some point when talking about herself.

[2D8HP]

I went on a date with a girl that seemed to go well, but later I checked out her out on Facebook and discovered that she was actually married with a kid. Should I simply just not call her back and/or tell her husband about this?

I would personally worry less about how a reveal would make the husband feel, than what would happen to the kid.

[dehro]

When you have minimal involvement with the woman and never had contact with the husband, it's not wise to assume to know what's best for either of them. I've been in situations where I was on friendly terms with both members of a couple and was led to believe me getting intimate with the woman was ok, only to discover that the husband wasn't all too happy about it. On one occasion the reason was it specifically being me, on another the girl in question had been less than honest with her intentions...
On both occasions nothing came of it before any irreparable damage was done.
And that was me knowing at least a part of both people involved's intentions.
Not knowing the dynamics within the couple, you approaching the husband out of the blue could potentially really do more harm than good.
Leave this one alone and consider it a bullet dodged.
At most you could tell her that she needs to be more forthcoming with important information, and/or work in her communication skills. Questioning her integrity or the honesty of her intentions can either lead to some form of chastisement or, more likely, to an ugly confrontation that won't serve any purpose other than, at most, making you feel good about yourself...At a cost.
If you're really interested in her, you can confront her with your findings and ask her what the deal is. For all you know she does these things with her husband's blessing or even encouragement... but you don't seem that invested in her, so maybe it's best to let her go. Either way, stay away from the husband.

[Coidzor]

I don't know if they have a Don't Ask Don't Tell policy.

That's a real corner case, and in any event, that kind of piss-poor approach to open relationships doesn't deserve to be respected, especially if they're too immature and stupid to deal with someone inevitably bringing it up with the other partner.

Certainly not to the point of assuming such is the case without some actual reason to do so.

I don't know if the information might cause him to become violent (I tend to believe that even adulterers don't deserve that).

The crimes of others are not the responsibility of others in such cases.

Now if one actually had reason to believe he'd kill her, that obviously changes matters, but as something that's purely in the realm of conjecture, that's grasping at ephemeral straws.

I don't know if he already suspects but would really prefer to keep up the plausible deniability.

You're getting into paranoid territory at this point.

I don't know if they are stupidly happy together and he would resent having that shattered.

They're obviously not stupidly happy together if she's cheating on him, and getting out sooner rather than later would ultimately be better for him, especially if there aren't any children yet.

I don't know if she is a good liar who will blame the "obvious lie" on an angry ex.

Then one did one's due diligence and since it's out of one's concern or care, it's irrelevant if he chooses to believe her.

My grandparents slept around like really dysfunctional bunnies, and every reveal just led to a huge fight that scared their kids, followed by a return to status quo until the next big fight. I find it hard to argue that either reveal did any good for anyone.

I'm sorry your parent went through that, but that's too much of a corner case for me to believe it's something that anyone should really give weight to.

[Cozzer]

Personal opinion: do you want to tell him? Do you think it would make you feel better enough that you're ready to take the risks, and would be happy you did it even in a reasonable worst case scenario (guy gets angry at you and not at her, nobody else is grateful to you for what you've done)? If you think you have to tell him out of some sort of duty, don't do it. You have no duty towards her, towards him or towards their relationship. If you want to tell him for yourself, because you would feel better with that choice, then go ahead and do that.

It's not about risks, or calculating the exact probability of who gets angry with whom. It's about you doing what you really feel is the right thing for yourself.

[Glass Mouse]

I would personally worry less about how a reveal would make the husband feel, than what would happen to the kid.

You know what, this is a fantastic point that bears repeating.


Coidzor, I don't appreciate being called paranoid, and I really don't feel like defending every individual reason since they're not the point. If you cannot fathom a statistically likely reason to not wanna know of a partner's infidelity, we live in vastly different realities.

[Kalmageddon]

I can understand Glass Mouse's point but at the same time not saying anything doesn't sit well with me. Maybe confront the wife, find out why she didn't tell you, what her situation at home is.
Or just go on about your business and never interact with her or her family again. However, speaking for myself I always try to understand the realities I interact with, even if I have to put myself on the line.

[2D8HP]

....point that bears repeating.....

Thank you @Glass Mouse, I've been frustrated in reading posts that only consider the adults involved.

On a deep gut level I regard adults happiness as significantly less important than children's welfare.

[Coidzor]

Thank you @Glass Mouse, I've been frustrated in reading posts that only consider the adults involved.

On a deep gut level I regard adults happiness as significantly less important than children's welfare.

Growing up with parents who don't love one another or whose marriage is a sham typically isn't very good for a child's development and perspective on the world as an adult, so trying to guess at what's better for the welfare of a child one doesn't know is grasping at straws, since it's unknowable exactly how things will shake out.

Especially since there's always a chance that they're doomed to grow up poorly whether the parents stay together or split up.

Coidzor, I don't appreciate being called paranoid, and I really don't feel like defending every individual reason since they're not the point. If you cannot fathom a statistically likely reason to not wanna know of a partner's infidelity, we live in vastly different realities.

Inventing reasons to worry is exactly that, especially when they're such fringe cases that they're not worth consideration.

Your only valid point was that maybe he'd murder her, and that's only a possibility, not something that's especially likely without additional information and context. It's one of those things that is both a real problem and yet plenty of people get cheated on without killing anyone.

[2D8HP]

...since it's unknowable exactly how things will shake out....

True, but in all but "corner cases", I regard delaying their parents divorce until after their childhood is over as better for children.

Full Disclosure: My parents seperates when I was seven years old, and officially divorced when I was ten.

I also have in mind the examples of two of my co-workers with minor children, one of whom's recent and the others upcoming divorce were both prompted by revelations of infidelity.

[Coidzor]

True, but in all but "corner cases", I regard delaying their parents divorce until after their childhood is over as better for children.

Full Disclosure: My parents seperates when I was seven years old, and officially divorced when I was ten.

I also have in mind the examples of two of my co-workers with minor children, one of whom's recent and the others upcoming divorce were both prompted by revelations of infidelity.

It seems like it's better if they divorce while the kid is too small to fully appreciate any loss or at some point during the teen years, yes. Keeping up an unsustainable marriage and normalizing the view that marriages are loveless and dysfunctional also does the child no favors, though.

Ultimately, it's not the concern or place for an outside party to be preoccupied with, so long as there's nothing to report to CPS, which there really shouldn't be in the particular context of being removed from the situation save for knowledge of infidelity.

[Liquor Box]

Ultimately, it's not the concern or place for an outside party to be preoccupied with, so long as there's nothing to report to CPS, which there really shouldn't be in the particular context of being removed from the situation save for knowledge of infidelity.

The bold part of your post holds true for their relationship as well. If you don't know the guy being cheated on, why insert yourself (anonymously or not) into their relationship?

You write off most of Glass Mouse's points by labelling them "corner cases", but I think that together they are a real possibility and may well account for what is happening here. Simply put, you do not know.

Let the couple manage their own relationship without your interference.

[Coidzor]

The bold part of your post holds true for their relationship as well.

Exactly, which is why you don't care about the ultimate outcome.

If you don't know the guy being cheated on, why insert yourself (anonymously or not) into their relationship?

She already did that by trying to get you to do something wrong.