An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower

[The New Bruceski]

So imagine my surprise and delight when I saw the casting announcement for The Witcher Netflix series, and saw that for Yennefer of Vengerberg they had cast a brown lady, of south asian descent. It was... immensely validating. Maybe too validating. I'm an adult person with a degree and a job and a rent and medical bills. There's people who are going to call me sad and pathetic over wrapping so much of a small part of myself around looking so much like a specific character from a fantasy book. There's people who are going to tell me that the trailer was awful, and that the show is going to be garbage (and it seems probable that they'll be correct). But I got an adaptation of a thing where the character that want to be like looks like me, and I'm keeping that with me.

So if we're asking the question of 'should fantasy strive to look more like the people reading/playing/watching it, especially people who might not have been able to see themselves in a character that they like before?'

The answer is a solid 'yes!' from me, dawg.

Not a cosplay thing, but for me it was when Ben Grimm became officially Jewish (not that it wasn't an open secret before 2002, just not explicit). "Oh wow, I didn't realize I was missing this feeling."

[Anteros]

I also agree that the picture on Reddit looks much more reasonable. I could believe those people come from the same village.

It's almost like the other photos were intentionally picked to stir controversy.

[Seerow]

I also agree that the picture on Reddit looks much more reasonable. I could believe those people come from the same village.

It's almost like the other photos were intentionally picked to stir controversy.

My guess is the photos were provided by the actors themselves, and they're the standard headshots they send to casting agents. But I suppose it's possible the wheel of Time creators wanted to set off some vaguely racist controversy to stir up buzz. If so I'll say it failed because I haven't seen many outside of the hardcore community talking about it. Like no random news articles about how great the diverse crew is or about awful fans panning ethnic actors playing favorite characters or whatever.

[snowblizz]

My guess is the photos were provided by the actors themselves, and they're the standard headshots they send to casting agents. But I suppose it's possible the wheel of Time creators wanted to set off some vaguely racist controversy to stir up buzz. If so I'll say it failed because I haven't seen many outside of the hardcore community talking about it. Like no random news articles about how great the diverse crew is or about awful fans panning ethnic actors playing favorite characters or whatever.

Because it's on Amazon and no one will see it.

[Traab]

Because it's on Amazon and no one will see it.

And unlike a big property name like lotr or harry potter, its not such big news as to get more than a handful of enraged idiots setting the internet on fire. Dont get me wrong, I liked the series, but it isnt really a world wide phenomenon.

[Saph]

And unlike a big property name like lotr or harry potter, its not such big news as to get more than a handful of enraged idiots setting the internet on fire. Dont get me wrong, I liked the series, but it isnt really a world wide phenomenon.

Overall sales of Wheel of Time are in the same ballpark as Game of Thrones, pushing 100 million or so. Now, that's not in LotR territory, but it's pretty big, and the generation who read it as teenagers are now in their 30s and 40s with lots of disposable income. An adaption has the potential to be a big deal if they do a good job with it.

[Traab]

Overall sales of Wheel of Time are in the same ballpark as Game of Thrones, pushing 100 million or so. Now, that's not in LotR territory, but it's pretty big, and the generation who read it as teenagers are now in their 30s and 40s with lots of disposable income. An adaption has the potential to be a big deal if they do a good job with it.

Does that count the fact that there are twice as many books in WoT to buy? Also, im not sure what happened with GoT. Its like something triggered this surge of public interest then the tv series came out and made it even more huge. I do agree it has the potential to be a big deal. After all, first off its completed, so none of this tv writers trying to finish the series themselves stuff, and secondly, its a LONG series which provides for many many seasons of content potential. Im just saying that as of now, WoT isnt really in the general public consciousness on a wide scale so the whole sexist/racist/whateverist tirades that tend to appear from time to time are less likely for this.

[Saph]

Does that count the fact that there are twice as many books in WoT to buy?

It's overall sales. Given that Jordan's dead and GRRM isn't, Game of Thrones has the potential to sell a lot more in the long run, but given the rate at which GRRM is currently putting out books, Jordan and GRRM's future output might not end up looking very different.

[Rodin]

I'm not surprised by controversy either, but I think the casting is fine.

I agree that all the Randland countries should have a visually distinctive touch, but skin colour is not the only way to be visually distinctive. I'd say it isn't even the easiest way to be visually distinctive. Wheel of Time is filled with weird mustacheless beards, silly hats, strange tattoos, braids or pony tails, colourfull or dull dresses and many other visual cultural marks that can be pasted onto any actor independent of skin colour.
If all Two River folk have braids and embroidered shirts (while no other people does), they will be absolutely visually distinct, an obvious separate ethnicity, and it's easy to make Rand a clear outsider.

Rand wouldn't be a clear outsider in that case, because he'd have his hair in braids and be wearing an embroidered shirt. What you're describing is culture, not race. Rand came to Two Rivers as a baby, and him having grown up there and been immersed in the culture of this rural farming village is kind of critical to the plot.

I agree with the earlier comment that just him being a red-head would be enough to make him visually distinct. It's been a long time since I read the books, but the two things I remember them harping on was Rand's red hair and grey eyes. Give him red hair and grey eyes, draw attention to them as being atypical for a Two Rivers boy, and leave it at that. It's simple, it's effective, and you can easily make sure nobody other than the Aiel have red hair while still keeping plenty of diversity in the cast.

[Anteros]

and you can easily make sure nobody other than the Aiel have red hair while still keeping plenty of diversity in the cast.

Do we really expect them to cast an entire race of people as redheads? I really doubt that happens.

Of course, I also doubt the series gets that far so it may not matter.

[Thomas Cardew]

Do we really expect them to cast an entire race of people as redheads? I really doubt that happens.

Of course, I also doubt the series gets that far so it may not matter.

I mean they explicitly wear veils. So I could see major characters being redheads (natural, dyed, wigged, or otherwise) and the rest always just have their heads covered.

I will say I was unimpressed with the pictures in the original article, others have been much better. Definitely getting a MTV (was that the right channel?) Shannara vibe. None of them really looked how I pictured the characters but I think Mat and Perrin look alright. Perrin could bulk more, but that's just the unreasonable expectation of a fantasy blacksmith. But I always try to withhold judgement until actual costumed or trailer photos come out.

[The_Snark]

I vaguely recall blonde and other light hair colors being common among the Aiel too, not just red hair. But yes, the fact that they typically cover their hair makes for a pretty easy out.

[Corvus]

Lan has been cast.

https://tvline.com/2019/09/04/the-wh...agoran-amazon/

Looks a little young to me. In book Lan was mid to late 40s and was old enough to be Nynaeve's father.

And there is the fact that Jordan was constantly reminding us that Lan had blue eyes as cold and hard as ice, or some such description. I guess he will be wearing coloured contacts.

[Anteros]

Lan has been cast.

https://tvline.com/2019/09/04/the-wh...agoran-amazon/

Looks a little young to me. In book Lan was mid to late 40s and was old enough to be Nynaeve's father.

And there is the fact that Jordan was constantly reminding us that Lan had blue eyes as cold and hard as ice, or some such description. I guess he will be wearing coloured contacts.

I think he can pull off the look. The picture they have there isn't great, but he's capable of it. I like him better than some of the other casting choices. At least he looks a little bit like the character is supposed to.

[Gnoman]

Lan has been cast.

https://tvline.com/2019/09/04/the-wh...agoran-amazon/

Looks a little young to me. In book Lan was mid to late 40s and was old enough to be Nynaeve's father.

Aging somebody with makeup is really easy to do convincingly.

[Rodin]

He looks about right to me. I always pictured Lan as looking like Cyan from Final Fantasy VI, and Henney in that picture is only a moustache, a ponytail, and some fake wrinkles away from looking the part.

(Of course, Lan in the books doesn't have a moustache, but still)

[Iruka]

He looks about right to me. I always pictured Lan as looking like Cyan from Final Fantasy VI, and Henney in that picture is only a moustache, a ponytail, and some fake wrinkles away from looking the part.

(Of course, Lan in the books doesn't have a moustache, but still)

Weird. I always imagined him with a moustache, too. He seems like the kind of guy to have one.

[georgie_leech]

Weird. I always imagined him with a moustache, too. He seems like the kind of guy to have one.

Spoiler: I

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Also TIL even some samurai masks have the facial hair

[Ashen Lilies]

The ages are not that far off. Lan at the start of the books is 45, Daniel Henney is turning 40. Lan just kind of seems older because he's just got that old man grizzled veteran energy. He probably also looks a bit older due to hard living, but then again, he's also a Warder, who apparently age slower. With an 18 year age difference, he's technically old enough to be Nynaeve's father... though we don't really see people start that young in Randland. Henney looks a bit younger than 40, but makeup and a rougher appearance will do a lot.

I think he does look right for the role. He's got the right facial structure for it, he's pretty darn tall (6'2"!), muscular, and already a martial artist, which is probably the most important. Eye color is not an important detail to me, as long as the general look and demeanor is right. They never gave Daniel Radcliffe green eyes, or Ralph Fiennes red ones (for example) and I think they looked alright. Keeping small details like that accurate is pretty restrictive for casting.

I always imagined Lan clean shaven, but I do admit, a mustache would be a good look for him as well.

[Lord Torath]

I always imagined Lan clean shaven, but I do admit, a mustache would be a good look for him as well.

The original cover of the first book The Eye of the World has a mustachioed Lan.

[lord_khaine]

I always imagine Land cleanly shaven as well.
Partly i suspect, because thats something we assosiate with military and soldiers.
And yeah, as long as he is large and intimidating, then thats what matters.

[An Enemy Spy]

Chapter 50: The Hammer

Perrin's group arrives in Tear, meaning the gang's all here for the big climax. Zarine keeps pressing him for answers on why Tear is so important to them, but he brushes her off and tells her Moiraine will fill her in when she wants to. Considering Morraine is the type not to warn you about a pile of dog poo until you've already stepped in it and berate you for your foolishness, I wouldn't bet on Zarine's chances of getting water from that particular stone.

Loial observes that the people of Tear look downcast and defeated in a way they didn't when last he was here, which is of course because they're under the malign influence of the Forsaken "Lord Samon".

They take up residence in an inn called the Star, and I swear to God if I have to write another freaking summary of them staying in an inn I'm going to explode. Robert Jordan has an inn problem. There's too many freaking inns in these books and they're all exactly the same. If you took out all the pages devoted to them exchanging niceties with innkeepers and which rooms they stay in and how comfortable the beds are this series would be four books long.

Perrin goes outside and is drawn to the sound of a nearby smithy. The smith instantly can tell that Perrin is an apprentice and puts him to work, and Perrin does just that, losing himself in the simple act of smithing and not having to worry about saving the world for a time. When he looks up Zarine is watching him. I've seen Game of Thrones, I know where this is going. The blacksmith, Master Arjula lets him keep a hammer he made as payment for the work he did.

It's a bit of symbolism in this book that Perrin is torn between the axe and the hammer, the warrior that destiny is making him become and the simple blacksmith he yearns to be, and now he has a literal symbol of both those futures on him, a fact that isn't lost on him when he puts his new hammer down next to his axe in his room.

He gets gruffly summoned to the inn's private dining room by Lan, because none of the heroes in this series are capable of acting politely toward each other, and the rest of the group is there to have a secret meeting. Moraine tells them that the Forsaken Be'lal is in Tear. She believes he means to allow Rand to enter the Stone of Tear and claim Callandor, so he can then take it from him. Moraine means to fight instead of running this time, even though she's no match in power for a Forsaken. She doesn't even dare ward the room against listeners in case Be'lal detects her use of magic and kills her from a far without even having to get out of his chair.

But not even a Forsaken can survive Balefire.

She asks Loial for everything he knows from the Ogier stories about Be'lal. He's not mentioned much ion the old tales outside of being there when Lews Therin and his companions sealed the Forsaken up. He was envious of Therin's power and also of Ishamel and Lanfear. He was called the Netweaver and made a huge deal of the fact that he once beat Lews Therin in a game of stones, just like that awful overly competitive friend you had in school. Lan goes out to study the Stone's defenses, and also to keep an eye on the Aielves he's seen sneaking about the city.

Perrin recalls the words he heard from Gaul that when the Stone of Tear falls, the Aielves will leave the Three Fold Land. Moiraine hasn't heard any prophecy that says anything about this, which means, Perrin, that you know something Moiraine doesn't! Hold onto this feeling, because I doubt it will last.

[Sapphire Guard]

That's a pretty embarrassing evildoer CV. 'I won a chess match once'.

[GrayDeath]

Well, seeing how much of a Gary Stew Lews T. T. was, that IS more than most Forsaken can say about themselves. ^^


As for the Inns: Nah, at most that would make one book. Still, 600 pages+ of Inn are too much, I agree. ^^

[georgie_leech]

That's a pretty embarrassing evildoer CV. 'I won a chess match once'.

When most of your villain angst comes from "always being second (at best) in literally everything..." Yeah, I can see them throwing it on Evil Linkdn.

[Tvtyrant]

Lews Therin is basically defined as "best at everything" so most of them hating him for it seems reasonable.

Best caster. Best general. Best Go player. Best sword fighter (why would casters even use swords??)

Also had the best looking girlfriends and was the most famous.

[Traab]

When most of your villain angst comes from "always being second (at best) in literally everything..." Yeah, I can see them throwing it on Evil Linkdn.

That DOES seem to be a succinct boiling down of bad guy motivations here. "I couldnt get what I wanted based on my own merit, so I sold my soul to the devil in hopes that he would give it to me." That may not be a valid interpretation for all of them, but I bet a lot could be summarized that way. And too be fair I would brag on it a lot too if I managed to beat Magnus Carlsen in a game of chess once.

[The_Snark]

That DOES seem to be a succinct boiling down of bad guy motivations here. "I couldnt get what I wanted based on my own merit, so I sold my soul to the devil in hopes that he would give it to me." That may not be a valid interpretation for all of them, but I bet a lot could be summarized that way. And too be fair I would brag on it a lot too if I managed to beat Magnus Carlsen in a game of chess once.

Spoilered because I can't remember who we have and haven't learned about at this point in the books:

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It's not all of them, but it's definitely a significant fraction. Demandred, Sammael and Be'lal all seem to have jealousy/rivalry with Lews Therin as a major motive for turning to the dark side. (I can't help but wonder how they felt about one another; did they bicker for the position of One True Rival*? Try to ignore it? Get together for drinks every other Friday to commiserate and complain about That Bastard?) Mesaana and Asmodean both fall solidly into that category, being people who were decent in their fields but didn't get the prestige they felt they deserved... I don't remember much about Balthamel but I feel like he might fit in here too?

*The hilarious thing is that if you asked Lews Therin who his biggest rival among the Forsaken was, I bet he'd have said Ishamael.

On the other hand, Ishamael and Graendal had weird philosophical reasons for joining the Shadow, Lanfear went over out of sheer ambition (and/or self-preservation, since she was at Ground Zero), and Semirhage and Aginor were seduced by the promise of not having to deal with pesky ethics committees.

I don't think we ever learn much about why Rahvin and Moghedien went over. I would guess they fall more into the latter category - Rahvin doesn't seem insecure the way Demandred/Sammael/Mesaana do, and Moghedien actively didn't want fame (or infamy).

[Traab]

Spoilered because I can't remember who we have and haven't learned about at this point in the books:

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It's not all of them, but it's definitely a significant fraction. Demandred, Sammael and Be'lal all seem to have jealousy/rivalry with Lews Therin as a major motive for turning to the dark side. (I can't help but wonder how they felt about one another; did they bicker for the position of One True Rival*? Try to ignore it? Get together for drinks every other Friday to commiserate and complain about That Bastard?) Mesaana and Asmodean both fall solidly into that category, being people who were decent in their fields but didn't get the prestige they felt they deserved... I don't remember much about Balthamel but I feel like he might fit in here too?

*The hilarious thing is that if you asked Lews Therin who his biggest rival among the Forsaken was, I bet he'd have said Ishamael.

On the other hand, Ishamael and Graendal had weird philosophical reasons for joining the Shadow, Lanfear went over out of sheer ambition (and/or self-preservation, since she was at Ground Zero), and Semirhage and Aginor were seduced by the promise of not having to deal with pesky ethics committees.

I don't think we ever learn much about why Rahvin and Moghedien went over. I would guess they fall more into the latter category - Rahvin doesn't seem insecure the way Demandred/Sammael/Mesaana do, and Moghedien actively didn't want fame (or infamy).

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I admit its been awhile, but I could have sworn part of lanfears push to the dark side was that lew therrin wouldnt be with her or rejected her or something. I know she is pretty heavily motivated to seduce rand, especially in the early novels and she had some serious yandere tendencies when it came to learning who he was interested in. So a part of her fall might have been to get sempai to notice her.

[The_Snark]

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I admit its been awhile, but I could have sworn part of lanfears push to the dark side was that lew therrin wouldnt be with her or rejected her or something. I know she is pretty heavily motivated to seduce rand, especially in the early novels and she had some serious yandere tendencies when it came to learning who he was interested in. So a part of her fall might have been to get sempai to notice her.

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Maybe? It's hard to tell, because I don't think we ever get a Lanfear POV section, but I got the impression she was a little obsessed with Lews Therin even before all the stuff about the Dragon and the Dark one happened. Discovering that he is not just the only (rich, famous) man who ever rejected her, but an actual Hero of Prophecy certainly made that worse.

On the other hand, she's also extremely ambitious in her own right. Even at her most stalkerish, her life never completely revolved around him. Give her a choice between Lews Therin and Ultimate Power(tm), and I think she'll pick the latter every time.

(Well. First she'll try to figure out if there's a way to cheat and have both. But if it comes down to one or the other...)