Where the line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 fails

[Talya]

In theory, I agree with JaronK's tier 1 and tier 2 classifications for prepared vs. spontaneous full spellcasters. In 3.5, it was rather clear. I don't think, however, it's always the case. How large does a sorcerer's spells known list need to be before they climb that threshold into tier 1?

Ignoring Paragon Surge fun (which is still true, even with the new FAQ limitation to it), a sorcerer in Pathfinder is likely to have 26-30 more spells known over 20 levels than a 3.5 sorcerer.

At a certain point, there stops being spells I want anymore. Even as a wizard, I'd be debating whether it's worth the ink cost to scroll most of what's left after that initial spell list.

Where does the line blur? Obviously it depends on how many spells are on your spell list, and how many of THOSE spells are worth even considering. Obviously, if you know every spell you want to know and can cast them spontaneously, you're in better shape than the wizard. How many spells that you want to know do you have to sacrifice in the name of convenience before it drops you to tier 2?

I don't really have an answer, except to say it's not as cut and dried as "limited spell list = tier 2, prepared and potentially infinite spell list = tier 1." No, even the tier 1's have a limited spell list - the theoretical limit is the number of spells published.

[bjoern]

Well, being able to cast your spells spontaneously rather than planned ahead of time is of course better like you said. A sorcerer can keep up with a wizard on spells known by using knowstones, ancestral relic, and magic items.
However this just keeps him up with the wizard. Meanwhile the wizard is using the feats and gold that the sorcerer spent to do other things. And is now back out in front of the sorcerer again.

A wizards ability to technically have all spells known for free from every level really gives him a huge edge in theory. Actually getting all those spells in game can be tough if the DM isn't willing to just dote godhood upon you and makes you pay or adventure for them.

[HammeredWharf]

In a D&D game that's even close to normal, at some point a high-OP caster reaches the Tier Why-Do-You-Even-Care. Of course, one could debate if Pun-Pun's stupider cousin (only 153 Int!) is T1 or T2, but that serves no real purpose other than annoying your DM and hopefully estimating how much weaker your next character should be. On the other hand, in a high-OP game, those exotic spells could make your life easier.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I always thought the line between tier 1 and 2 was pretty stupid, I treat both as about the same. Even in 3E, sorcerer got so much broken splat love (mainly amazing sorc-only spells, but also general charisma-to-whatever options, dragon book feats, etc....) and options to expand the spell list or spells known (prestige classes, bloodline feats, rune staff....) that they didn't feel all that "limited."

A wizard might potentially be able to choose between many more different "nukes," but he still had to add them to his book one at a time, with your tacit if not explicit approval each time, so you as DM still have a pretty decent awareness and control over what nukes the wizard has. In that regard, CoDzilla is far more fearsome, just on the basis of automatically knowing every spell ever printed for them until you specifically go in and ban/nerf each problematic one.

In any case, yeah. If there was a line between the two, PF did a good job of utterly destroying it with +20 spells known over 20 levels (favored class), pages of spell knowledge, paragon surge tricks, ramiriz....uh...that "priest" archetype, and so on. And they can easily make UMD checks on those random "I might need this odd spell once my entire career" scrolls now, too.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think it's more about the versatile loadout than the number known. Each day, the wizard can know just the spells they need (though conceptually so, since first they need to get them in the spellbook, an entirely different matter).

Thus, the sorcerer could probably know half as many spells, and if they could change their list of spells known every day, bam, Tier 1 (though they'd need a bit about being able to leave empty some spells known slots until later in the day).

At least this is a bigger factor in my mind. Obviously, if you crank up the spells known amount or the usage of WBL to supplement versatility, you can match Tier 1 at some point (though WBL usage is also available to wizards, so a rather moot point there). At what point this occurs is hard to pin down, because range of threats varies significantly by campaign.

[bjoern]

I think it's more about the versatile loadout than the number known. Each day, the wizard can know just the spells they need (though conceptually so, since first they need to get them in the spellbook, an entirely different matter).

Thus, the sorcerer could probably know half as many spells, and if they could change their list of spells known every day, bam, Tier 1 (though they'd need a bit about being able to leave empty some spells known slots until later in the day).

At least this is a bigger factor in my mind. Obviously, if you crank up the spells known amount or the usage of WBL to supplement versatility, you can match Tier 1 at some point (though WBL usage is also available to wizards, so a rather moot point there). At what point this occurs is hard to pin down, because range of threats varies significantly by campaign.

A sorcerer with the ancestral relic feat for a custom rune staff can also take item famiar and place upon it a continuous effect Consecrate spell and have access to any sorcerer spell in the game as a free action.

So he is equally if not more versatile than a wizard. However he is down two feats and a load of gp. So while he may be more versatile he is less potent in other areas.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's kind of hard to say in abstract, because so much depends on what spells the spontaneous caster chooses. A sorcerer who loads up on summon monster, planar binding, and simulacrum can do practically anything he wants; on the other hand, the one who takes only d6/level blasting spells is pretty much stuck in T4-5 territory, regardless of how many of those he knows. Meanwhile, every wizard has essentially the same list of spells known, and it's only a matter of playing smarter to go up in power.

A sorcerer with the ancestral relic feat for a custom rune staff can also take item famiar and place upon it a continuous effect Consecrate spell and have access to any sorcerer spell in the game as a free action.

So he is equally if not more versatile than a wizard. However he is down two feats and a load of gp. So while he may be more versatile he is less potent in other areas.

That trick falls within the "optimization can move you up a tier or two" bit. And an equally-optimized wizard is using Uncanny Forethought (or some other trick) to cast all his spells spontaneously, so there you go.

[jiriku]

A sorcerer with the ancestral relic feat for a custom rune staff can also take item famiar and place upon it a continuous effect Consecrate spell and have access to any sorcerer spell in the game as a free action.

So he is equally if not more versatile than a wizard. However he is down two feats and a load of gp. So while he may be more versatile he is less potent in other areas.

Wait, how does consecrate help you get spells known?

[Silva Stormrage]

A sorcerer with the ancestral relic feat for a custom rune staff can also take item famiar and place upon it a continuous effect Consecrate spell and have access to any sorcerer spell in the game as a free action.

So he is equally if not more versatile than a wizard. However he is down two feats and a load of gp. So while he may be more versatile he is less potent in other areas.

Ya I don't think thats the kind of shenanigans that can fly at most tables and a sorcerer with that combo would reasonably be called tier 1. Still thats not how 99% of sorcerers are played and is not the assumption the tier list should assume when assigning tiers.

[Samalpetey]

Wait, how does consecrate help you get spells known?

Ancestral Relic lets you enhance a certain item at the cost of gold and time, when in a consecrated area. A custom runestaff's spells can be changed at no cost with ancestral relic, since so long as you don't change the actual level or number of spells in it the value of the item isn't increased, hence the change takes no time at all, essentially letting you change your spells known at will within a consecrated area

[bjoern]

Wait, how does consecrate help you get spells known?

Its pretty cheesy. The houserule we use for AR is it takes 8hrs minimum.

[Psyren]

Yeah, the line between them is pretty thin. It's like that old adage about Stephen Hawking being struck by lightning - if he became 100 times smarter, would you notice the difference?

I don't see why it matters. The simple fact that you have to know about things like pages of spell knowledge or FC bonuses for various races or specific PrCs is enough reason to put those classes in a separate category. T2 does not equal "worse" or "2nd place," and I think that erroneous connotation is what gets under people's skin.

[illyahr]

The Tier list is only a guideline for estimation and is not set in stone.

For example: a high-Int, high-Cha bard in PF can be set up to be extremely versatile with stat-buff and save-or-suck spells; abilities that boost atk/dam, skills, or cause debuffs; and options that allow conversions of spell/performance power into combat abilities. A set-up like this could be argued to be a low Tier 2. He wouldn't have the power of a sorcerer, but the sheer versatility lets him handle almost any situation.

[caimbuel]

Biggest single difference now is the skills they are good at, IE knows everything, or could sell ice to an eskimo. That and the wizzy still gets spells 1 level earlier, and if he kills an enemy wizard and there is a spell book, wizzy does happy dance, sorc is pleased, but not to same degree.

[Taveena]

The Tier list is only a guideline for estimation and is not set in stone.

For example: a high-Int, high-Cha bard in PF can be set up to be extremely versatile with stat-buff and save-or-suck spells; abilities that boost atk/dam, skills, or cause debuffs; and options that allow conversions of spell/performance power into combat abilities. A set-up like this could be argued to be a low Tier 2. He wouldn't have the power of a sorcerer, but the sheer versatility lets him handle almost any situation.

Tier 2 isn't versatility. A factotum is undeniably more versatile and it's a high t3. T2 is being able to BREAK THE GAME. As in, completely overwhelm it to the point that it becomes an imbalanced mess. A t2 has limited ways to break the game. A t1 has loads of ways to do it. A Psionic Artificer - the possible 't0' can break the game in every single way.

[jiriku]

Ancestral Relic lets you enhance a certain item at the cost of gold and time, when in a consecrated area. A custom runestaff's spells can be changed at no cost with ancestral relic, since so long as you don't change the actual level or number of spells in it the value of the item isn't increased, hence the change takes no time at all, essentially letting you change your spells known at will within a consecrated area

I still don't get it. Ancestral Relic allows you to add effects, not remove them. Are people interpreting "the market price of the magic item your relic will become and the market price of your current relic" to mean that they can remove powers at will and replace them with others?

[Talya]

Tier 2 isn't versatility. A factotum is undeniably more versatile and it's a high t3. T2 is being able to BREAK THE GAME. As in, completely overwhelm it to the point that it becomes an imbalanced mess. A t2 has limited ways to break the game. A t1 has loads of ways to do it. A Psionic Artificer - the possible 't0' can break the game in every single way.

But that's kinda my point - how many spells does a Tier 2 need to "know" before they get bumped to tier 1?

Let's put it another way:

A Sorcerer that "knows" all the spells on their list is obviously more versatile than a wizard who has somehow also acquired all the spells on their list, and likely more powerful too. They're far more powerful than the standard wizard, who doesn't even know a third of the spells on their list.

Take a spell at every spell level away from the sorcerer. Let them choose which one they lose. Are they still tier 1? Well, yes, obviously. There are plenty of useless spells you'll never use.

Take two spells away now. Probably same thing.

If you keep going, at a certain point, they will become less versatile than a wizard, but that won't make them tier 2 yet, they've just lost a trick or two.

The core PF Sorcerer, with it's 9/6/6/5/5/5/4/4/4/4 spells known (includes bloodline spells), is 1 spell per spell level better than 3.5. Then favored class bonuses will make them 12/8/8/7/7/7/6/6/7/4 for spells known. Arcane Bloodline makes them 12/8/8/7/8/7/7/6/8/4. That's all without spending feats or resources on extra spells. Compared to 3.5, that's +3/+3/+3/+3/+4/+3/+4/+3/+5/+1 spells known (by level.) In 3.5, that might put them on the cusp of tier 1. Pathfinder has less than a quarter the published spells available as 3.5 had...so not only do they know so many more spells, but those spells represent a higher percentage of their total list than they did in 3.5. It's clear that if a sorcerer knows their entire spell list, their spellcasting method is obviously better than the Wizard's. But there's a wide gulf in between core 3.5 sorcerer and "knowing your entire spell list." At what point is the sorcerer method of casting just as good as the wizard's? (We're not counting the level progression being behind at odd levels, just the mechanic.)

[Asrrin]

I still don't get it. Ancestral Relic allows you to add effects, not remove them. Are people interpreting "the market price of the magic item your relic will become and the market price of your current relic" to mean that they can remove powers at will and replace them with others?

There are rules for crafting a custom Runestaff, and having an ancestral relic runstestaff lets you "upgrade" it per the custom rules. If you "upgrade a runestaff that currently has x3 4th level spells to another custom runestaff with x3 other 4th level spells, the upgrade cost is 0 gp, and 0 * 8hrs = 0 hrs to "upgrade" it.

Most sane DMs houserule Ansestral relic to have a minimum 8hr "upgrade" time regardless of cost.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yeah, the line between them is pretty thin. It's like that old adage about Stephen Hawking being struck by lightning - if he became 100 times smarter, would you notice the difference?

I don't see why it matters. The simple fact that you have to know about things like pages of spell knowledge or FC bonuses for various races or specific PrCs is enough reason to put those classes in a separate category. T2 does not equal "worse" or "2nd place," and I think that erroneous connotation is what gets under people's skin.

This is quite wise. The only difference between Tiers 1 and 2 that is important is largely one that is important for a DM looking to create challenge X within a certain framework. If you are actually playing a Tier 1 or a Tier 2, if you apply enough effort to [character goal Y], you will succeed, and probably in a stupidly small amount of time. Same goes with a given challenge; both Tier 1 and Tier 2 make a given challenge go away. In fact, the basis for that challenge is now in jeopardy, as both high-tiers are capable of resetting the premise of the campaign.

It's just that the wizard can do it more often for more different challenges (though the sorcerer can likely do it as much as would ever be required, the wizard can do it even moreso). Thus, a DM might need to plan around the wizard's day-to-day reformatability, whereas a sorcerer can be a smidgeon easier to anticipate (outside of tricks that keep this from being so, as above).

Really, it's not a distinction that is usually relevant outside of high-op environments.

[Psyren]

Tier 2 isn't versatility. A factotum is undeniably more versatile and it's a high t3. T2 is being able to BREAK THE GAME. As in, completely overwhelm it to the point that it becomes an imbalanced mess. A t2 has limited ways to break the game. A t1 has loads of ways to do it. A Psionic Artificer - the possible 't0' can break the game in every single way.

Thing is, high enough power leads to versatility. Say your goal is to "get somewhere unseen" - the Factotum can do this better with a regular skill check, but the sorcerer has magic that is equal if not better, like shapechanging into a Pixie, or just teleporting to the destination directly, or picking up Guidance of the Avatar through optimization etc.

[Phelix-Mu]

There are rules for crafting a custom Runestaff, and having an ancestral relic runstestaff lets you "upgrade" it per the custom rules. If you "upgrade a runestaff that currently has x3 4th level spells to another custom runestaff with x3 other 4th level spells, the upgrade cost is 0 gp, and 0 * 8hrs = 0 hrs to "upgrade" it.

Most sane DMs houserule Ansestral relic to have a minimum 8hr "upgrade" time regardless of cost.

But you removed three spells from the runestaff. Do the custom runestaff rules really cover removing spells from a runestaff? Cause normally you can only enchant stuff using crafting rules. Would be pretty interesting if they let you actually remove value from an item.

Basically, it seems to me this "upgrade" includes a functionality that isn't implied by the rules.

[Asrrin]

But you removed three spells from the runestaff. Do the custom runestaff rules really cover removing spells from a runestaff? Cause normally you can only enchant stuff using crafting rules. Would be pretty interesting if they let you actually remove value from an item.

Basically, it seems to me this "upgrade" includes a functionality that isn't implied by the rules.

Here is the pertinent part of the the text of the feat:

At any time, you may retreat to a consecrated or hallowed location and spend time in prayer in order to awaken the spirits in your ancestral relic. This requires a sacrifice of valuable items worth the difference between the market price of the magic item your relic will become and the market price of your current relic.

The part here indicates that there is no correlation between the current relic and what you pan to make the relic into, aside from the difference in price. the example given about the bastard sword is simply that, an example. It is not a ruling.

[bjoern]

Here is the pertinent part of the the text of the feat:



The part here indicates that there is no correlation between the current relic and what you pan to make the relic into, aside from the difference in price. the example given about the bastard sword is simply that, an example. It is not a ruling.

Correct. You don't upgrade an ancestral relic. Upgrading means adding. Like normal magic items you can't remove properties you can only add. For example a +1flaming sword can't be changed to a +1 shock sword. You would have to add the shock on top to make it a +1 flaming shock sword

Ancestral relic say what it is now and whatniy will become. Its not upgraded or crafted of added too. Its becoming something else. So RAW it takes no time. Although I feel the 8hr minimum is the best way to go otherwise it is kind of obnoxious being able to change spells in and out in the middle of combat.

[Talya]

Well, I'm not really talking about ancestral relic shennanigans, although the 8 hour houserule you're advocating is very similar to the new ruling on PF's paragon surge, in that once you've used it once that day, you have to use it the same way if you cast it again later, giving you the same spells if you cast it a second time the same day.

The point of the thread is really, "How many spells do you need to know before you've functionally caught up to or surpassed a wizard?"

[bjoern]

Well, I'm not really talking about ancestral relic shennanigans, although the 8 hour houserule you're advocating is very similar to the new ruling on PF's paragon surge, in that once you've used it once that day, you have to use it the same way if you cast it again later, giving you the same spells if you cast it a second time the same day.

The point of the thread is really, "How many spells do you need to know before you've functionally caught up to or surpassed a wizard?"

I dont think a sorc would ever catch up to a wizard. There are some pretty situational spells out there that are only needed 1/100 times and a wiz would have them cause he's got them all but a sorc wouldn't. 99/100 times you wouldn't notice a difference but that one time a wiz is better. And 99-1 isn't undefeated like 100-0 is.

[Chronos]

Quoth Phelix-Mu:

I think it's more about the versatile loadout than the number known. Each day, the wizard can know just the spells they need (though conceptually so, since first they need to get them in the spellbook, an entirely different matter).

Being able to lose access to the spells you don't need isn't an advantage. The advantage of a wizard isn't that you can lose access to some of your spells; it's that you can gain access to other spells. But if a sorcerer manages to expand their spells known to a degree comparable to a typical wizard's spellbook, then the sorcerer also has that advantage, and then some, because they don't need to lose access to spells they don't expect to use.

[Talya]

I dont think a sorc would ever catch up to a wizard. There are some pretty situational spells out there that are only needed 1/100 times and a wiz would have them cause he's got them all but a sorc wouldn't. 99/100 times you wouldn't notice a difference but that one time a wiz is better. And 99-1 isn't undefeated like 100-0 is.

I've just detailed situations where they DO catch up to a wizard - when they know as many or more spells. At that point they're unequivocally better, since they can cast all their known spells on demand.

If you take a spell away from them after that, do they still measure up? Absolutely, they're still far better.

How many spells do you need to remove before they start falling behind?

[Taveena]

Honestly, I'm pretty sure it just comes down to... well, if a Wizard is t1 because he can pay a few thousand gold to fill up his spellbook, then surely a Sorcerer is too with all their Knowstones.

BUT that's out of core. Core, a Sorceror is t2. It goes up a tier because it can manage every spell on the list, just like a Psion compared to a Psion that's had all powers Psychic Chirurgery'd to it.

There are also some weird cases - the Spirit Shaman is probably a t2 compared to the Druid's t1, even though they're equally versatile casting-wise just because the spell list is weaker and solves less problems, while Wildshape solves a lot. (But that's fuzzy and this is just going on vaguely remembered anecdotes and vague questions - SS never seems to get properly tiered). The Binder goes from t3 to t2 by virtue of having pseudo-casting, and yet the Factotum doesn't. (I've always been a bit fuzzy on how Zceryll actually manages to 'break the game' - are any of the SLAs available really doing that?)

If you accept Wizard and Cleric as approximately equal, then the Favored Soul is subpar to Sorceror - Wizard and Sorceror have the same class features, while the FS's features are undeniably less useful and more MAD. (Woo, only had flight for 12 levels. Thanks.) But the FS can still undeniably break the game and do anything a Cleric can - just not all with the same build.

EDIT: And as I suddenly remember this is Pathfinder... I've heard varying opinions about where the Witch and Summoner lie, too. The Witch's list just isn't quite as strong as the Wizard, but they still have incredible versatility and can learn every spell. The Summoner... well, ****, Create Demiplane + Permanency is as strong as Genesis was in 3.5e with the added bonus you don't need to pay anything if you only need it temporarily... buuuut some people still seem to think it's t3. I don't really know why, seems to be a t2 with an Animal Companion+.

[Talya]

Honestly, I'm pretty sure it just comes down to... well, if a Wizard is t1 because he can pay a few thousand gold to fill up his spellbook, then surely a Sorcerer is too with all their Knowstones.

BUT that's out of core.

Core is kindof a meaningless term, especially when I'm discussing pathfinder.

You could describe "Core" as all the first party paizo material at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/.

Or you could describe it as all the stuff accepted in the society. Frankly, either gets you there.

[bjoern]

Honestly, I'm pretty sure it just comes down to... well, if a Wizard is t1 because he can pay a few thousand gold to fill up his spellbook, then surely a Sorcerer is too with all their Knowstones.

BUT that's out of core. Core, a Sorceror is t2. It goes up a tier because it can manage every spell on the list, just like a Psion compared to a Psion that's had all powers Psychic Chirurgery'd to it.

There are also some weird cases - the Spirit Shaman is probably a t2 compared to the Druid's t1, even though they're equally versatile casting-wise just because the spell list is weaker and solves less problems, while Wildshape solves a lot. (But that's fuzzy and this is just going on vaguely remembered anecdotes and vague questions - SS never seems to get properly tiered). The Binder goes from t3 to t2 by virtue of having pseudo-casting, and yet the Factotum doesn't. (I've always been a bit fuzzy on how Zceryll actually manages to 'break the game' - are any of the SLAs available really doing that?)

If you accept Wizard and Cleric as approximately equal, then the Favored Soul is subpar to Sorceror - Wizard and Sorceror have the same class features, while the FS's features are undeniably less useful and more MAD. (Woo, only had flight for 12 levels. Thanks.) But the FS can still undeniably break the game and do anything a Cleric can - just not all with the same build.

EDIT: And as I suddenly remember this is Pathfinder... I've heard varying opinions about where the Witch and Summoner lie, too. The Witch's list just isn't quite as strong as the Wizard, but they still have incredible versatility and can learn every spell. The Summoner... well, ****, Create Demiplane + Permanency is as strong as Genesis was in 3.5e with the added bonus you don't need to pay anything if you only need it temporarily... buuuut some people still seem to think it's t3. I don't really know why, seems to be a t2 with an Animal Companion+.

A 9th level spell costs a wizard 450gp to learn (assuming the normal rate)

A 9th level know stone costs a sorcerer 81,000gp (assuming you can find one)

Pretty quickly a sorc is out of cash and the wizard has a ton of extra money to spend onother things.

How many spells can you lose and sstill be as good? I don't know an exact number there are a lot of junk spells and a lot of redundant ones. There's just a lot of spells that are nice to have that are just not practical for a sorcerer to afford them all.

If you were arbitrarily making a homebrew sorcerer that knew all spells I'd would be outright better I'd think.