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2018-05-29, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Treason is more costly. If a bolt to the head of a retreating guardsmen can keep a line from breaking, then its a worthy investment.
But they aren't, they're launching a new crusade at the Damocles Gulf. Because clearly with chaos/orks/nids still rampaging accross the galaxy, somehowRowboatthe High Lords think that trying to take back a bunch of planets they did their best to burn to the ground is worth throwing resources at.
Thing is, from the moment the Imperium met the Tau they passed an edict to wipe them out, and did try to do it several times. But thousands of years later the Tau are still standing. And "we're too busy with chaos/xenos" never really cut it as an excuse since Tau also have to deal with those for those thousands of years.
Which makes sense considering that the Imperium's main tactic of sending wave after wave of guardsmen with cardboard armor and flashlights ends pretty poorly when faced with disciplined gunlines with proper guns that won't just stand and wait for you to reach melee range. And even sphech merine chapter masters pop just fine to a well placedmeltafusion gun.
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2018-05-29, 08:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Couldn't something like a Melta pistol (can't remember their name) or even one of those nice Flashlight pistols that actually do damage be used? Or perhaps a Handcannon. Best would be to just slice his head off. Least wastage of resources.
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2018-05-29, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-05-29, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
There's also plot armour. If GW ever lets the Tau get wiped out, they'll stop selling Tau minis. Can't have that.
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2018-05-30, 02:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Ciaphas Cain addresses this in one of his novels. He personally prefers a laspistol because it's light and has no recoil, while the other commissars that he meets use a variety of las- and stubguns. Tomas Beige in particular uses an autopistol (an "uzi").
A Bolt Pistol, however, is seen to be a MANLY weapon (despite being expensive, bulky and recoils like crazy), so the in-universe art tends to depict heroes as using one, regardless of the truth.
As such, the image of him on the cover to his own books *is* in-universe propaganda, rather than the more traditional depiction of what is in the book. It's all very meta.~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
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2018-05-30, 04:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-05-30, 05:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
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2018-05-30, 06:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-05-30, 09:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Now, Back to Lurking!
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2018-05-30, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Funny because in Ice Guard lasweapons have enough recoil to break the ice that until now was holding a guardsman just fine.
And in Dawn of War we can clearly see that Commissar laspistols do have recoil. And yep, Dawn of War's canon since it's the only source of Tau sterelization camps that keeps being used in this threads, you can't just cherry pick the bits you like.
If it's all just propaganda, how can you trust any bit of it? How do you know the bits where he's lying and when he's telling the truth?
And why stop there? Why not propaganda pics of every manly sergeant with a bolt pistol? Full regiments of manly guardsmen with bolters?Last edited by deuterio12; 2018-05-30 at 09:22 PM.
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2018-05-31, 01:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-05-31, 04:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
I'm happy to refine my statement to "comparatively little recoil". The point is, that's why Caine likes them more than bolters.
And in Dawn of War we can clearly see that Commissar laspistols do have recoil. And yep, Dawn of War's canon since it's the only source of Tau sterelization camps that keeps being used in this threads, you can't just cherry pick the bits you like.
If it's all just propaganda, how can you trust any bit of it? How do you know the bits where he's lying and when he's telling the truth?
That's why we sometimes get sneered at when our only support for a point is "because it was in a Cain novel", compared to a source written by someone who is not so focused on the satire.
And why stop there? Why not propaganda pics of every manly sergeant with a bolt pistol? Full regiments of manly guardsmen with bolters?
The Cain series are among the only openly satirical books in the BL range, but there's deliberate shades of this in Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Shia Calpurnia.... Not to mention the Infantryman's Uplifting Primer. In-universe, the sheer outrageous manliness of the 'Guard can so barely be contained in paper and ink format, that it leaks out into our own!
Irony: A 5-letter word which means "a bit like iron".Last edited by Wraith; 2018-05-31 at 04:23 AM.
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2018-05-31, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Autopistols are the best at executing Heretics! 9/10 Commissars say they prefer Dominatus Autopistols for slaughtering those filthy traitors! Why have a bolt pistol and execute just one traitor at a time, when with an Autopistol you can execute 10 with a single sweep of your gun! Buy a Dominatus Autopistol Today!
Anyway I think Handcannons would be best for loyal(Ish) regiments and for regiments like the savlar (Pretty sure I spelled that wrong) chem-dogs, autopistols for efficiency and so they don't get overwhelmed by the swarms of Chem-dog heretics.Omnissiah grant me the strength to change what I can,
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2018-05-31, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
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2018-05-31, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
He won't even upgrade to a hellpistol at this point, despite it functionally being a higher-powered version of the laspistol with exactly the same degree of recoil. The weight of the gun itself would be enough to throw off his aiming reflexes.
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2018-05-31, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Extra weight and recoil should be fine. You don't need to aim carefully since you're in close range and the guardsman most likely has his back to you.
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2018-05-31, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Cain doesn't shoot his own men. Not because he cares about them, according to him, but because if they like him he's less likely to 'accidentally' become a victim of 'friendly fire' when things get messy.
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2018-05-31, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Any book that says lasguns should have recoil is just being daft. E=pc for photons, to get the momentum of e.g. a slow-pitched softball in recoil you'd need to have an energy output per shot of 2.4 gigajoules. That's about 2,000 times more energy than you get from the main gun on an Abrams tank.
You can come up with fancy 40K justifications (like how caseless bolter rounds still eject shell cases) but any such justification ends up having to say that:
1. The Munitorum puts additional kit into their lasers (more cost!) that makes them do more things than just be a laser
2. The additional kit is there specifically to make the laser gun harder to handle + wear out faster.Last edited by LCP; 2018-05-31 at 06:07 PM.
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2018-05-31, 09:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
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2018-05-31, 09:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Omnissiah grant me the strength to change what I can,
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2018-05-31, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
The only explanation ive ever heard for Lasguns having recoil is that they put a piston in there so when it fires it "kicks" like it should. Cuz otherwise it screws with the shooter.
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2018-05-31, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
He also likes to get close and personal with swords, even against chaos marines, so I would seriously question his taste for guns of any kind.
Ah, the usual excuse of "bah we didn't care about that army/planet/system anyway, that's why we threw so many resources trying to hold it!".
I must say, that's a surprisingly refreshing reply.
That's not a simple sergeant, that's one of the biggest imperial heroes. All the golden bling should be a dead giveaway.
Well it wouldn't be 40K without a good chunk of satire on it.
Like the most famous commissar is the one that admits he's a coward and never (openly) executes his dudes.
Here's an example of a common lasgun:
Notice anything funny?
That's right, virtually every depiction of a lasgun has the classic anti-recoil part! Considering that the main selling point of the lasgun is that it's supposed to be super cheap to mass produce, why are they wasting valuable materials for non-necessary bits?
And again, both in non-blatant-propaganda books (Ice Guard has the protagonists ending up failing their mission) and actually animated depictions (every Dawn of War game with imperial guard) we can see the clear effects of lasgun recoil.
Hear, hear! Clearly lasguns actually channel your faith in the emprah (or chaos for traitor guard)!Last edited by deuterio12; 2018-05-31 at 09:38 PM.
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2018-05-31, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Omnissiah grant me the strength to change what I can,
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2018-05-31, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
I didn't say it was 'canon' or not, I just said it was daft.
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2018-05-31, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
That thing you're referring to is called the stock. The stock of a longarm is not solely used for recoil control, though it certainly does have that as one of its functions. The stock also allows the weapon to be aimed accurately, as it is much easier to line up your eye with the sights/barrel of the weapon using your torso as leverage rather than just your wrists/arms, not to mention it is much easier to keep the weapon steady, and can also act as a cheek rest when aiming if the stock is the right shape. It also allows you to rest the weight of the gun against your shoulder, reducing how fast your arms are fatigued from holding the weapon in a firing position (average military firearm is 7 lbs/3.5kg; held at arms length, it will wear your arm out rather quickly). And a stock makes it possible to reload your typical military firearm without moving the weapon much (bracing it against the shoulder while using one hand to work the magazine release and reloading).
So yeah, rifle-esque weapon having a stock doesn't really indicate that it has recoil.
I chalk up lasguns being depicted with recoil in the same vein as shuriken weapons that have laser-looking effects, boltguns listed as using depleted deuterium cores for armor penetration, and the fact that no one seems to agree on what the hell a meltagun actually does besides making problems go away: just because one or more sources depict it that way, doesn't make it not-stupid.Currently Playing:
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2018-05-31, 10:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Lasguns have stocks and recoil for the same reason that they fire slow, visible chunks of light:
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2018-05-31, 11:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
You want to talk weird weapon designs? What about chainswords? They'd clog up from all the guts and flesh being put into them. And if Its anything like some of the chain stuff in real life, you'd end up being drawn along by it. So you wouldn't be able to take it out of the body as easily because it would be hooked in. Have you ever tried getting one of those barbed fishing hooks out of your skin? I'd imagine it'd be like that.
They do look and sound awesome though.Omnissiah grant me the strength to change what I can,
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2018-05-31, 11:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
I actually quite like the idea that the original lasguns had artificial recoil generators just to be more familiar to soldiers used to older guns, and that nobody could ever take them out because people grew up used to it. That seems very 40k to me. Like a laser version of the QWERTY keyboard.
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2018-06-01, 12:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
I've heard one theory is that it, and the noise lasguns make is due to incredibly localized thunder. Just like with lightning, it's superheating the air in a quick burst. The air expands, pushes the gun away and makes a noise.
With a bit more thinking, there could also be something in the guns themselves that does cause the recoil, to help run more air through the gun to speed up cooling for the next shot or something like that.Thanks to Dirty Tabs for the Travis pony.
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2018-06-01, 12:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
He shoots them very rarely. But it does happen - just much less often than with a more conventional commissar.
Usually it's more "have them shot" (or flogged) after a major breach of discipline, rather than personally doing so on the field of battle.
As he once put it, about incompetence that gets people killed:
"People have been shot for less. Some of them by me."Last edited by hamishspence; 2018-06-01 at 12:55 AM.
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