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Thread: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
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2009-05-05, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-05-05, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
A scout-like assassin should be possible, probably even with some natural foolamancy capabilities (so it can stay hidden and wait for a few turns before it
strikes).
The trouble is the turn structure. If GK's turn didn't start at dawn they'd know there's an enemy unit in the battle zone. Same thing if the day didn't end after GK's turn. But probably there are special rules for that (including spies and the like).Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).
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2009-05-05, 08:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
I don't see them conquering the world, not immediately. Parson is going to be careful not to get another coallition on his tail, especially when he actually has something to lose. Charlie is going to stand in his way in a big way, he's smart, has highly powerful units, and will consider Parson to be a powerful rival. I could see book 2 being about Stanley et al. building an empire, and turning GK into a powerful defensive place again. Right now they're just to weak (yes they have a large standing army, extremely powerful elite units (casters/warlords)), but they have no defense, and they don't seem to have any seige. Stanley et al. are back on their feet, not a threat to the world just yet.
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2009-05-05, 09:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
Quo vadis?
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2009-05-05, 10:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
Actually... I'm pretty sure the real problem with an assassination attempt would be that the rules for attacking a city. They would have to
a) kill all the units patroling the walls, and not get noticed...
b) kill all the dwagons with out Stanley noticing his pets dying...
c) scoure the tunnels and find every unit before someone notices...
So no a scout like assassin would be hard difficult.
The inate city defense would have to be bypassed and I can think of two methods of doing that...
Portal: Its possible they can use the portal, but somehow I doubt that would be easy. And it would risk handing casters to the enemy, and if Stanley has a heir it would almost certainly hand the plaid tribe the casters. (Gobwins didn't know if the plaids had a heir or not.)
Capture: A Jillian like assassin would be possible, but it involves getting captured, but that only happens to valuable units; again you risk handing a powerful unit to the enemy. And you would have to break out, and hope they don't start with a mind control spell.
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2009-05-06, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
*scratches head* As these rules stand, yes. Thing is, odd exceptions have a tendency to pop up at times. For example, initially Parson learned that only flying units may attack other flying units in forest hexes, then later he discovered that forest-capable units may attack flying units in forest hexes as well. It is at least possible to postulate an assassination unit that has a chance of infiltrating an enemy city, with likelihood of success increasing with assassin level and decreasing with city defense level and number/type of defenders. Such an assassin could have different abilities, ranging from 1) espionage (learning number and type of defenders, lower chance of capture), 2) sabotage (damaging siege/delaying what is in the production queue, somewhat higher chance of capture), 3) killing valuable target of opportunity (kill random caster or Warlord, still higher chance of capture), 4) killing specific target (Chief Warlord, Overlord/Ruler, very high chance of capture).
Also, I can think of another exception within all the rules we know. It goes as follows:
1) enter Alliance with target city/faction
2) send diplomat into city to negotiate
3) break Alliance and 'diplomat' attacks and kills desired victim.
Obviously, this method would not do much for the reputation of the Overlord or Ruler employing it, and the diplomat in question had better be expendable.My Avatar is Vinnie Doombats from the Erfworld comic written by Rob Balder and illustrated by Jamie Noguchi.
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2009-05-06, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
Exceptions... that's absolutely a possibility.
We can't forget, either, that Erf is a game-like world, not just a game. The resurrection of a volcano was possibly never part of the original rules, for example.Quo vadis?
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2009-05-07, 12:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
A juicy assassination target might sometimes visit the Airspace or Outer Wall zone, if you can lie in wait there. It seemed like GK's Outer Wall zone included the bulk of the city, actually. And the city buildings might make it easier to remain hidden.
Rulers might have to choose between direct supervision and safety. I wouldn't be surprised if casters typically remained cloistered in the Garrison.
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2009-05-07, 01:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
Parson's next experiment in weaponizing any sort of caster: a foolamancer ninja assassin.
Quo vadis?
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2009-05-07, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
The authors used the past few strips to relay a lot of rules information which was previously unknown and caused a lot of speculation.
Dwagons can be popped by a city;
Barbarians go first in turn order;
Enemy unit level is visible;
Enemy unit Warlord status is visible;
Decay status is visible;
Upkeep cost is visible;
I may have missed a few others.
It might be safe to assume that you see the same amount of detail regarding enemy units as you do your own. We have on a couple of occasions seen units call out orders such as "Target that caster" or "Target the Warlord." Casters might be obvious, especially if they are tunneling in riding on rock golems and reading scrolls. But only Ansom has seen Parson, and the weiner-rammer riding warlord ordered his troops to "target the warlord" referring to Parson. I think it's safe to assume that enemy units looking at Parson see that he is a Warlord, despite his reported lack of visible stats. Certainly no one looking at Parson sees him as a caster, or he wouldn't have faced so much hostility in the MK.
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2009-05-07, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
Enemy? Ansom sounds like an enthusiastic convert, not an enemy.
Decay status is visible;
Upkeep cost is visible;
We have on a couple of occasions seen units call out orders such as "Target that caster" or "Target the Warlord." Casters might be obvious, especially if they are tunneling in riding on rock golems and reading scrolls. But only Ansom has seen Parson, and the weiner-rammer riding warlord ordered his troops to "target the warlord" referring to Parson. I think it's safe to assume that enemy units looking at Parson see that he is a Warlord, despite his reported lack of visible stats.
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2009-05-07, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
Many answers, but many many more questions. Some of your answers seem to be flawed, too.
- Dragons can be popped by GK, but is that because of Stanley's attunement to the hammer? Maybe any city can pop dwagons, but they would pop as barbarians (and thus auto-attack). Can any other cities pop dwagons? Maybe only Stanly's can. Maybe only GK (as Stanley's capital) can.
- Barbarians go before GK, but not necessarily before everyone else (though that would make sense from a game-mechanic perspective). What happens if there are multiple Barbarian factions? In other words, what if Gk had fallen and then Jillian was hunting Stanley? Who would go first?
- Wanda may have learned of Ansom's level in other ways than the typical stat display. Perhaps that information was available to the eyemancer link. Perhaps Jillian mentioned it during an 'interrogation'. Same thing with warlord status, though I think that it was pretty obvious that Ansom was Jetsone's chief warlord (he didn't exactly keep it secret). If he is a chief warlord he must be a warlord.
- Decay status may only be observable by a croakamancer, maybe even only the one that created the uncroaked. Maybe Wanda knows because she is attuned to the 'pliers.
- Perhaps Wanda knows about Ansom's lack of upkeep from some other source of info. Perhaps no uncroaked have upkeep costs (just decay rates). Perhaps it is information imparted to her as a result of her attunement with the 'pliers.
I think the point was that they knew Ansom was still a Lvl 10 warlord, so they had to know he was a Lvl 10 warlord prior to croaking & decrypting.
See my last point in the above list.
Or Ansom described the enemy Chief Warlord to his war council. Kind of a good idea, tactically. That way he can give an order to target the Parson if the opportunity becomes available without having to describe him on the spot.
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2009-05-07, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-05-07, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
Fully agreed on the many more questions... And I'm sure my speculations can't be all correct, but the list of facts seems to be accurate, based on the strips.
Originally Posted by fendrinOriginally Posted by fendrinOriginally Posted by fendrin
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2009-05-07, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
One could argue that the twoll decoy incident provided everyone in the courtyard and beyond with an eyeful as to what armour the chief warlord of GK was wearing, as he supposedly stood on the balcony to surrender, then took a dive on Parson, then fought the nearby troops until finally getting killed with fire. Uniform and a rough sketch of appearance too.
Last edited by BLANDCorporatio; 2009-05-07 at 02:48 PM.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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2009-05-07, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
Wanda may have informed Parson previously that uncroaked do not have an upkeep cost, or even specifically that Decrypted Ansom does not have one. In either case, it would make sense for Parson to ask for confirmation.
It is certainly clear that he is checking out Decrypted Ansom's stats, but it is not clear in any way that upkeep cost is one of those stats.
"A pink twoll wearing white armor with a hamster on it" isn't a tough description to pass on. Further, the weiner-rammer warlord may not have needed to pass on the description. It seems likely that natural thinkamancy would allow a warlord to issue orders more on intent than phrasing. Either that or all units have to have full comprehension of Language, even if they can't speak a word of it. Consider the doombats. Do we ever see them being given orders verbally?
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2009-05-07, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
Ok, ok. Getting people to agree on the Internet is worse than herding cats. I see Parson looking at Newsom, then say "No upkeep?" in the same way that you might say "Chocolate cake?" if you were looking at what was obviously a chocolate cake but you were expecting to see a yellow cake. Even though I think the authors set out to reveal more of the rules with these past several strips, they clearly didn't account for the level of certainty required by some people before they can accept something for what it is.
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2009-05-07, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
May I mention a paper on mathematical humour I read once? One of the jokes ran like this-
An engineer, a physicist and a mathematician were on a train on their first trip through Scotland. At some time, looking out the window, they see the first animal they encountered on that trip: one black sheep all alone in the field.
"A-ha," says the engineer, "so in Scotland all sheep are black."
"That's not right," says the physicist, "but we do know that in Scotland there's at least one black sheep."
"That is still wrong" says the mathematician, "but we know that in Scotland there is at least one sheep, at least one half of which is black."
Wow what a great audience.Last edited by BLANDCorporatio; 2009-05-07 at 04:12 PM.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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2009-05-07, 04:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
See, I laughed at that joke. Of course, I also feel like there could be another response by a philosopher*, but the length would kill the joke. That and no one would get it.
* "No no no," said the philosopher. "In Scotland we were appeared to black sheeply."
I told you no one would get it ... ... ...
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2009-05-07, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-05-07, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
I want to read that paper. Can you tell me more about it?
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2009-05-07, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
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2009-05-07, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
Actually, every one of the attackers would recognize Parson.
They saw him come out to surrender to Ansom on top of a tall tower, visible from a wide distance, remember? Granted, it was really a Twoll under a veil, but that still lets everyone know what Parson looks like.
Also, Parson's coat of arms might give it away. Often heraldry carries information like that that isn't obvious to people who don't know its details.
This is Erfworld. As far as we've seen, you get a title (or, as old-Ansom would put it, a title that means something) by being popped as a royal or as a lesser noble, and they got their titles by being popped as a noble all the way back to (in theory) the original rulers appointed by the Titans.
Stanley was given a title too, sort of, but people like Ansom would never acknowledge it. So it makes a difference whether Wanda's title is something that was granted to her, or something she popped with.Last edited by Aquillion; 2009-05-07 at 06:57 PM.
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2009-05-08, 04:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
Yes. After a lot of searching- and I mean this, I thought I encountered this somewhere in the archives of Language Log- I found it eventually on wikipedia. Here's the link:
http://www.ams.org/notices/200501/fea-dundes.pdf
Warning: some mathematical ability is recommended to understand the jokes. For instance, you should be able to calculate what you get when you cross an elephant with a banana.Last edited by BLANDCorporatio; 2009-05-08 at 04:27 AM.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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2009-05-08, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
While on the top of efdup, Pheau-Parson wasn't terribly visible to units in the courtyard. Just look at the perspective in the shots which show it. After Bogroll tackled Ansom he was again a twoll in apprearance, and that's how he would have looked once he reached the ground and was killed and burned. In fact, Bogroll and Parson look nearly identical standing next to one another. At any distance they would be very difficult to distinguish*. So I'm not sure I can buy into any theory that the entirety of the RCC were familiar with the appearance of the GK Chief Warlord.
* This could be rendered moot if the "see unit stats" ability isn't diminished at all by distance.
Nice. :) That reminds me of a co-worker at a prior company. He was a statistical analyst, and not terribly customer oriented. He would provide figures of average disconnect numbers for our NAS servers in a meeting designed to allow the customer to beat us up over poor numbers and attempt to cajole us into constantly raising the bar. When he was asked why certain sites were below average he would often reply with something like "These sites are below average because half of the sites perform better than they do. That is what average means." I always had to stifle a chuckle at that.
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2009-05-08, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
Technically, what he was describing is the median. It is possible to have all sites performing equally, and thus equal to the average, say ...
...
I'll go now.The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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2009-05-08, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
You have never worked with three different networks of NAS servers spread across the country and served by every different LEC of every immaginable condition, have you*? It is a mathematical certainty that they can not perfom equally. :)
I thought of another favorite quote, attribution unknown:
'In theory, theory and practice are the same thing, but in practice, they are different.'
*The absolute worst copper in the country is buried under New York and New Jersey. Those networks are so old that many rural networks far outperform those metropolis networks.
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2009-05-08, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145
That is one witty quote I will now commit to memory, thanks!
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.