Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne

[Baxter190]

New Thread from http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...=1#post6569747

[Copper8642]

I'm... a bit lost on the origin of the title. However... sweet, first thread on any site ever that I've participated in that's maxed out. Cool!

[Erloas]

Blood for the blood God, Skulls for the Skull throne.

But with a bit more enthusiasm and exclamation points. The chant of the followers of Khorne.
Where Tactics for the Tactics God reference came from in the last thread title too.

[Cristo Meyers]

Hats for the Hat Throne is what happens when the What Not To Wear crew got ahold of Khorne Bezerker.

...he spent the rest of his life trying to get the other Bezerkers to coordinate the brass and crimson with more fashionable colors...

[Winterwind]

I'm still kinda confused about the hats-part.
Still, this marks me witnessing the entire life-cycle of a WH40k thread, from the beginning to its glorious end. They grow up so fast...

Originally Posted by Cristo Meyers

...he spent the rest of his life trying to get the other Bezerkers to coordinate the brass and crimson with more fashionable colors...

I see what you did there.

[Copper8642]

Yeah, I knew about the BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE bit, just not where the hats came from. Tactics made sense... hats... not so much.

[Baxter190]

Hats let you know whose in charge in the imperium. The more hats/bigger the hat, the more powerful a person is. See a Commisar model to get an idea.

[JMobius]

I thought it was lack of hats that was the indicator?

[The Glyphstone]

No, lacking a hat says you're badass. Having a big hat says you're in charge.

[Erloas]

I did a quick check on it, and I think it spawned directly from a quote from Mythic while they were developing WAR. I was following the development for WAR for a long time and I vaguely remember it, but not specifically, so I can't confirm what a random forum denizen said.

When talking about the crafting system for WAR they said they were going to make sure the crafting was focused on being at war and not more pacifist activities such as baking cakes or making hats. (I think it was a poke at the crafting system in LOTRO)
Of course the immediate response to that was "Cake for the Cake God, Hats for the Hat Throne"

I also think it happened a little bit after the PG version of the 300 trailer, which at least had the cake theme, though I'm not so sure about the hats.

[KilltheToy]

Originally Posted by Winterwind

Is that 6 Chosen with one of them being a Champion, or 6 Chosen plus a 7th model being a Champion? In the former case, an icon of Slaanesh would be fluffy, in the latter case one of Nurgle. Both should be rather fine for their role.

I assume this goes here.

So to answer the question from the last thread:

It's 6 chosen with one being the champion at the moment.

I'll try to get my current plan for a 1500 point list up here as soon as I can. It's based on this list here.

[EleventhHour]

My test-Guard list. Worked out pretty well for my first battle, surprisingly niether the Vendetta or Chimera being destroyed. (Only got to the end of turn 3 before I had to go, though.) One squad of Lascannons got shot up, lost one wounded the other, but it was less fire than I thought that they'd take. I think it's the infantry distracting people.

Spoiler

Unit	Upgrades	Points
HQ
Company Command	Power Weapon (Commander), Regimental Standard, Vox Caster, Master of Ordinance, Chimera	175
Elites
Stormtroopers	Power Weapon, 2 Plasma Guns, 5 Extra Stormtroopers	205
Stormtroopers	Power Weapon, 2 Plasma Guns, 5 Extra Stormtroopers	205
Troops
Platoon Command	Vox Caster, Plasma Gun	50
Infantry Squad	Vox Caster, Meltagun	65
Infantry Squad	Vox Caster, Plasma Gun	70
Infantry Squad	Vox Caster, Plasma Gun	70
Infantry Squad	Vox Caster, Plasma Gun	70
Infantry Squad	Vox Caster, Plasma Gun	70
Heavy Weapons Team	Lascannons	105
Heavy Weapons Team	Lascannons	105
.	.	.
Platoon Command	Vox Caster, 2 Plasma Guns	65
Infantry Squad	Vox Caster, Plasma Gun	70
Infantry Squad	Vox Caster, Plasma Gun	70
Infantry Squad	Vox Caster, Plasma Gun	70
Infantry Squad	Vox Caster, Plasma Gun	70
Infantry Squad	Vox Caster, Plasma Gun	70
Fast Attack
Hellhound Squadron	(2 Hellhounds)	260
Vendetta Gunship	Heavy Bolter Sponsons	140

[Erloas]

Originally Posted by KilltheToy

I'll try to get my current plan for a 1500 point list up here as soon as I can. It's based on this list here.

As a general rule of thumb, any list published by GW sucks. They might not be the worst lists ever, but they are seldomly any good. So I wouldn't use their lists for a guideline, though they work for a theme.

@EleventhHour
It doesn't look too bad, but it looks very 1 dimensional. You have good anti light vehicles and MC, and decent anti-heavy vehicle, and moderate anti-heavy infantry but you are really lacking a lot of anti-normal infantry.
The hellhounds are good at that, but I'm not sure if its enough. Since you have an extra FA slot I would also field your hellhounds as 2 seperate units to give you more versatility. I would probably switch 2-3 of the infantry squads to heavy bolters, or maybe a dedicated heavy bolter team. Either way you would still have 10ish units with plasma guns which would still very much fit your theme.

The plasma guns simply don't have the rate of fire to deal with something like Orks or Tyranids, or other IG. It could also be an issue against any other army that went fairly numbers heavy.

[Oslecamo]

Originally Posted by The_Glyphstone

No, lacking a hat says you're badass. Having a big hat says you're in charge.

No, no the true sign of leadership in the 40k universe are pauldrons!

Look at space marines! The higher your ranck, the bigger your pauldrons! Terminator ones are huge!

Also ork warbosses have some freaking big pauldrons.

And then we have the emprah!

Spoiler

I challenge you to find anothher human in the 40k verse with bigger pauldrons than the god-emperor all mighty!

[Erloas]

Spoiler

It depends on the group though, Eldar are more hats then shoulders, and I think IG are as well. But yes, GW does love their shoulder pads.

[Oslecamo]

Everybody knows that eldars are sissies, and IG, well, they're the cannon fodder of the emperium.

Creed however gets honorary pauldrons in the form of his huge coat, for his remarkable deeds kicking chaos ass.

Tau commanders have pauldrons that shoot missiles! Or they simply mount railguns on their shoulders.

(and for the record, I believe the noob's guild leader is the emprah spending his free time in the golden throne playing clichequest)

[EleventhHour]

@EleventhHour
It doesn't look too bad, but it looks very 1 dimensional. You have good anti light vehicles and MC, and decent anti-heavy vehicle, and moderate anti-heavy infantry but you are really lacking a lot of anti-normal infantry.
The hellhounds are good at that, but I'm not sure if its enough. Since you have an extra FA slot I would also field your hellhounds as 2 seperate units to give you more versatility. I would probably switch 2-3 of the infantry squads to heavy bolters, or maybe a dedicated heavy bolter team. Either way you would still have 10ish units with plasma guns which would still very much fit your theme.

The plasma guns simply don't have the rate of fire to deal with something like Orks or Tyranids, or other IG. It could also be an issue against any other army that went fairly numbers heavy.

I was hoping mostly that the spray of short-range lasgun fire would be able to help deal against enemy swarm armies, but mostly I'm just trusting in numbers to help compensate against light infantry. (The army was supposed to be anti-Space Marine, mostly anyway.)

[KilltheToy]

EDIT: Not really sure that was 1500.

Originally Posted by Oslecamo

I challenge you to find anothher human in the 40k verse with bigger pauldrons than the Corpse God of Man!

Fixed it for you

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by EleventhHour

Spoiler

I'll second what Erloas said;

Since you have an extra FA slot I would also field your hellhounds as 2 seperate units to give you more versatility.

Other than that though, I disapprove of having Heavy Weapon Teams. Take those three Lascannons and put them back in your Infantry squads. Costs 60 points. To put three Lascannons in three Infantry squads (that you already have, so the cost of the Infantry Squad itself doesn't factor in). Three Lascannons in a Heavy Weapon squad...Cost, well, 105 points. Not only that, but a Heavy Weapon Team has to resolve all it's shots at one target. With three separate Lascannons you will end up wasting less fire.

I would probably switch 2-3 of the infantry squads to heavy bolters, or maybe a dedicated heavy bolter team

Yes. By all means, put Heavy Bolters in squads. I like Autocannons in my squads (same points), since I put all my Heavy Bolters on my vehicles. But don't make 'teams' out of them. It comes down to 15 points versus 75 points. That being said, Mortar Teams (the only teams worth having) make excellent Troop killers.

...By now you've saved enough points for a Chimera or two.

Either way you would still have 10ish units with plasma guns which would still very much fit your theme.

I'm pretty sure it was Discord that had the theme. This list just happens to look similar.

[Dark Faun]

Plasmaguns for the Plasmagun God!

I second Cheesegear in putting heavy weapons, other than those good old mortars, in normal infantry squads (or grenadiers if you play Vostroyans). It allows you to shoot at more targets. Sure, it's only one lascannon shot by squad, but if it fails to destroy the tank just aim a second squad at it, whereas three lascannons can end with two useless lascannons because the first one was enough to reduce the vehicle to smithereens.

[EleventhHour]

But the thing is, those Heavy Weapons Teams get to sit there, my infantry has to charge for the First Rank - Second Rank with my Command. And I prefer drowning them in infantry than having 9 guys stand around, because the Lascannon has to take a shot at a tank.

::Though, I probably should stick HB's in some squads.

[Dark Faun]

Ah, yes, this tactic doesn't work as well if your infantry squads aren't static. However, one heavy weapon can be useful once your squad is entrenched in an objective.

But I'm no good player anyway - I played my only game ever today and I lost to a Daemonhunters Land Raider.

[Cheesegear]

Originally posted by EleventhHour
But the thing is, those Heavy Weapons Teams get to sit there, my infantry has to charge for the First Rank - Second Rank with my Command. And I prefer drowning them in infantry than having 9 guys stand around, because the Lascannon has to take a shot at a tank.

You forget, those 'nine other guys' are actually cover saves for your Heavy Weapon.

And, it seems to me that you're falling for the same mistakes that most rookie Guard players do, y'know, the one where you think that your HQ is actually effective in assault. Command Assault only works on weak, non-assault units like Guardians. But, if your command is in assault, it's not back with the rest of the army providing Ld (via Regimental Standard) and probably out of range to give Orders.
Not to mention that moving forward makes your Master of Ordnance totally useless. Drop him for double bodyguards.
Your 'spare' veterans in Command should likewise be carrying pistols.

...I also note a distinct lack of Chimera Transport. Although, that may be taken care of by the Vendetta (which isn't as good, by the way).

Another option, for your second Infantry Squad, is to drop all those plasmaguns for Grenade Launchers (which frees up a lot of points, not to mention giving you Frag templates instead of relying on BS3). Use Combine Squads, get a Commissar and a Priest (since Combine Squads make all five units 'the same squad', the Advisors' benefits carry to all 50 men. You also only need one vox for all five squads). Find points to stack Power Weapons/Fists on your Sergeants and even the Commissar.
As you move forward, you should be dropping Frag Templates to soften your targets before you get to Assault.
Again, because all 50 men are part of the same unit, First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! becomes somewhat deadly.

Because, obviously, if you're not carting Heavy Weapons, you should be moving forward, if you're moving forward without a Transport, you're going to get shot at. So, make sure you have a lot of Boyz Linesmen.

...If this second 'Assault Platoon' is modeled using Catachans, you get bonus points.

Originally Posted by Discord

But I'm no good player anyway - I played my only game ever today and I lost to a Daemonhunters Land Raider.

Okay class, who saw that coming? I know I did.

[EleventhHour]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

You forget, those 'nine other guys' are actually cover saves for your Heavy Weapon.

And, it seems to me that you're falling for the same mistakes that most rookie Guard players do, y'know, the one where you think that your HQ is actually effective in assault. Command Assault only works on weak, non-assault units like Guardians. But, if your command is in assault, it's not back with the rest of the army providing Ld (via Regimental Standard). Not to mention that moving forward makes your Master of Ordnance totally useless. Drop him for double bodyguards. Your 'spare' veterans in Command should likewise be carrying pistols.

Actually, I don't think they'd stand a chance at all in Assault. I never plan on taking them out of the Chimera. It moves up with the troops so that it's always close enough to support, or to use a Tank Shock and push a combat apart if the Guardsmen bother surviving onto my turn. And of course I'll take a turn now and then for the MoO to take a shot. The Chimmy just has to hold the middle of the line, covering the overlap for the two Platoon commands.

Another option, for your second Infantry Squad, is to drop all those plasmaguns for Grenade Launchers (which frees up a lot of points, not to mention giving you Frag templates instead of relying on BS3). Use Combine Squads, get a Commissar and a Priest (since Combine Squads make all five units 'the same squad', the Advisors' benefits carry to all 50 men. You also only need one vox for all five squads). Find points to stack Power Weapons/Fists on your Sergeants and even the Commissar.
As you move forward, you should be dropping Frag Templates to soften your targets before you get to Assault.
Again, because all 50 men are part of the same unit, First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! becomes somewhat deadly.

I would actually like to get the Powerfists. Going to look into getting a few points from somewhere in the list for them. Like all the appearntly useless Voxes. (Didn't realize that I only needed one per. >.>)

But 50 troopers wouldn't all fit as easily into range which means either the front ranks will get picked off as the rest move closer, or the back ranks don't get Rapid Fire range, and run into the problem you were pointing out with the HWSs, only some things would survive the first 80 shots of lasgun, the next 70 are just going to spatter on dead bodies.


Because, obviously, if you're not carting Heavy Weapons, you should be moving forward, if you're moving forward without a Transport, you're going to get shot at. So, make sure you have a lot of Boyz Linesmen.

...If this second 'Assault Platoon' is modeled using Catachans, you get bonus points.

Of course thier getting shot at, that's why there's a mass of them.

Okay class, who saw that coming? I know I did.

Whee! More discussion.

...I also note a distinct lack of Chimera Transport. Although, that may be taken care of by the Vendetta (which isn't as good, by the way).

The Vendetta is for the Stormtroopers.

[Erloas]

I'm not a guard player, so I don't know from experience, but I would say the heavy weapon teams can have some good uses. For one, even a lascannon will not reliably take out any vehicle in one shot, especially not with a BS3 guy shooting it. Ok, you might be very likely to take out Dark Eldar vehicles, but against a lot of vehicles you have a reasonable chance of penning, but a single pin rarely takes down a vehicle anyway. As such, I don't see it as being a big waste of points, because even with 3 you are only averaging 1-2 hits and there is a good chance a single hit isn't going to take it out.
Where as with the weapon a normal infantry squad you are loosing 9 shots from lasguns (admittedly not a big loss). So even if we assume you are going to destroy a vehicle 50% of the time with a lascannon (because you will only hit 50% of the time) thats going to take about 150ish points worth of 2 normal squads or 105 points worth of 1 heavy weapon team.
They also make the use of things like "bring it down" a bit better because then you are affecting 3 weapons instead of just 1. When shooting at non-vehicles such as monsterous creatures, and even really heavy infantry squads you are going to need more shots as well.

With other heavy weapons I don't see the problem either, because things like autocannons and heavy bolters are generally going to be going after things that take more hits to kill anyway, MCs and infantry squads and such, its not like there is any unit you can hope to take out with a single HB or AC.

[Dark Faun]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Okay class, who saw that coming? I know I did.

Actually, it was with my Salamanders. Supposed to be a 500 points battle with a captain with storm bolter and power axe, two squads of five marines and five assault terminators with thunder hammers, which somehow ended up in 750 points, meaning Vulkan, a chaplain and a mobile cover Razorback against a great master, ten or twelve Grey Knights, an Eversor and a Land Raider.

Slaughtered everything but the Land Raider.

[Cheesegear]

Originally posted by EleventhHour
Actually, I don't think they'd stand a chance at all in Assault. I never plan on taking them out of the Chimera. It moves up with the troops so that it's always close enough to support, or to use a Tank Shock and push a combat apart if the Guardsmen bother surviving onto my turn.

...In that case, don't bother with the Regimental Standard, since it only works when it's actually on the board.

Keep in mind that Tank Shock rarely works against any decent army. It just moves them out of the way. Make sure that your Tank doesn't end it's movement blocking line of sight from your Linesmen so they can shoot at them.
(I never rely on Tank Shock to help me with anything. Because it has repeatedly failed. So, my thoughts on the matter aren't very comprehensive)

Didn't realize that I only needed one [vox] per.

Only if you use Combine Squads. Remember that part.

But 50 troopers wouldn't all fit as easily into range which means either the front ranks will get picked off as the rest move closer, or the back ranks don't get Rapid Fire range, and run into the problem you were pointing out with the HWSs, only some things would survive the first 80 shots of lasgun, the next 70 are just going to spatter on dead bodies.

That FR,F!SR,F! was an afterthought. Like a bonus. They don't all have to be in range. Just...A lot of them. You don't have to optimise every single thing you do (although it does help). The difference between say...80 Lasgun shots and a Heavy Weapon Squad, is that, you (should) have another whole platoon of where those lasguns came from.

Heavy Weapons need to pick their targets. And every shot not killing something that a regular lasgun couldn't kill (a tank) is a shot wasted. You can't 'waste' lasguns. And if you somehow manage to do so, you clearly don't have enough lasguns.

But, the amount of men (50) is not to shoot lasguns. The goal is to have loads of bodies in the way so you can actually get into assault, and, maybe even win. If you're going to Assault, you have to remember that you're a Guardsman, and you suck at it. The only way to win Assault is with numbers.
Or, by softening the target with Blast Templates, Multiple Pinning checks and Ordnance.

A squad with 5 'nade Launchers, backed up by a Heavy Weapon Team (the only kind of Heavy Weapon Team I support) of Mortars has no problem getting into assault. Being backed up by Ratlings is just icing.

The Vendetta is for the Stormtroopers.

Storm Troopers don't need a Vendetta. They Infiltrate or Deep Strike for free. I'm also pretty sure that STs don't get their Airborne Assault bonus if they Grav Chute out. But, I'll check that, since the wording says that they might be able to - but I infiltrate mine (for the pinning checks), and so far haven't been impressed by the Valkyrie, so I haven't worried about it yet. Also, Grav Chuting also has the distinct possibility of killing you all far more easily than regular Deep Striking.

@ Erloas: Yeah. I know what you're saying. But, a lot (most) of the Heavy Weapons have a longer range than the lasgun, as such there's a good chance that often your lasguns wont be firing anyway. I also see that you forgot to take into account Combine Squads, which actually lets you have five Lascannons in one squad (not that that's a smart move by any means. Three is more than enough).

The main point is, that the price for a Heavy Weapons Team, is something like three more times the cost it takes to just intersperse those same three weapons into three of your Infantry Squads that you already have anyway. Which you then combine into one massive squad using one of the most useful Special Rules ever.

@ Discord: So...In a 750 point game he was not only taking a Land Raider, but he was also taking an Assassin without an Inquisitor (which is illegal)?

...What's more, you were Salamanders without a boatload of meltaguns? For shame. Granted, a Land Raider shouldn't really be expected in a 750 point game...But still, what happened to those Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers?

[Dark Faun]

My mistake. He used an inquisitor (solely to be able to use an assassin), not a master. And he's a Land Raider maniac. We stopped the game because we lacked time. The Terminators could have damaged the Land Raider enough times to have a lethal glancing hit, the same way the Land Raider could have killed the Terminators (they lost no one in spite of being shot with twin-linked lascannons repeatedly). So it was more of a tie.

I'm still wondering how to use the flamethrowing Razorback I have efficiently though he works well as a mobile cover. I got it only for fluff (i.e. Salamanders' pyromania).

I miss the previous Codex, when you could have special and heavy weapons in a six marines team.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Discord

I'm still wondering how to use the flamethrowing Razorback I have efficiently though he works well as a mobile cover. I got it only for fluff (i.e. Salamanders' pyromania).

Salamanders follow the Triad of Bolter, Melta and Flamer. But, obviously, Razorbacks can't have Meltas. So, are less fun than Immolators. I modeled my Sisters army after the Salamanders for that reason. Since the Sisters are actually better at doing what the Salamanders do.

I miss the previous Codex, when you could have special and heavy weapons in a six marines team.

I miss where I could have two special weapons if I didn't take a Heavy Weapon (one of the Salamanders' actual doctrines). And the Sisters can still do that.

[Dark Faun]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Salamanders follow the Triad of Bolter, Melta and Flamer. But, obviously, Razorbacks can't have Meltas. So, are less fun than Immolators. I modeled my Sisters army after the Salamanders for that reason. Since the Sisters are actually better at doing what the Salamanders do.

Why do you think a Sister is piloting the turret of my Razorback? The only plastic Sister in existence!

I miss where I could have two special weapons if I didn't take a Heavy Weapon (one of the Salamanders' actual doctrines). And the Sisters can still do that.

I miss the time Salamanders had 3 I and cheaper mastercrafted weapons.

In fact, I miss being able to give mastercrafted weapons to my HQ choices.