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Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground
I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy the Dark Vengeance starter box.
What's Dark Vengeance?
Dark Vengeance contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.
It contains roughly 850 Points worth of Dark Angels. However, it only contains around 500 points worth of Chaos Space Marines. Of course, if you're playing DV as it's meant to be played, you're never using all of the models at once so the points difference doesn't really matter.
However, in practical terms, the Dark Angels are only barely legal and lack enough Scoring models. And, while the CSMs are legal, they're almost 300 points behind and lack anything that packs a decent punch. You will also need the relevant Codecies for your faction as it will dramatically change the way you play the game as opposed to using the reference sheets that come with DV.
How much does it cost?
The Dark Vengeance box, one Codex, one other box of your choosing, and a Starter Paint Set costs you about the same as a Playstation 3 and one game*. In both cases, you'd be good to go for about a month. This author thinks of most boxes as console games, and Flyers and Land Raiders are the AAA-Title Collector's Edition game. The difference being that in this hobby you can use all your 'games' at the same time, and continuously.
Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.
*Priced in $AU where everything is more expensive - although the ratios should be the same.
Okay, I've got everything. What next?
Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army.
Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.
However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.
How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
There are ways that you can play 200, 400 and 500 point games using altered rules. But, if you want to play the game as-is, the recommended minimum is 750.
The game 'balances out' at 1500. Most games should be played at this level since pretty much all armies get a fair shake.
However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level. While you're at it, here's How to write an army list.
As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1250 with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.
I did what you said and I still lost. What gives? :smallfurious:
First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.
Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.
Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.
And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.
Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.
If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.
Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.
How much terrain do I need?
Up to 12 pieces is the official word. However, that can get crowded pretty fast if you've got big pieces.
A better guide is roughly anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board. :smallsigh:
I don't like using Special Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
Your opponents probably don't. Special Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Special Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Special Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.
However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.
So which Allies should I pick?
This guide is very rough. But should provide you with at least a starting direction.
I can't paint.
Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel. :smallwink:
But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.
Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you. Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind.
Which army is the best?
That's a loaded question. It depends what points limit you're playing at (at 1500 there really isn't one). But, there is no 'best' army. Plasma beats Terminators beats Mech beats Plasma. 40K is much like Rock, Paper, Scissors. None of the armies are 'best', as each army can be countered. Some armies are better than others, but there is no 'best'.
However, as you play the game you will notice that your Codex doesn't have the units that beat another Codex. That's not to say that you haven't won any games, and it's not to say that your opponents' armies haven't lost several games to armies that just aren't yours. It just means that your army can't beat your opponent's army with what you've got available to you. That's why Allies need to be in the game.
Wait, so there are bad Codecies?
Yes. But, every Codex should be usable between 1000-1500 points. So, no matter what army you pick, you'll be okay within those points limits, or, you should be. If you find that your Codex/Army isn't doing well against certain opponents, and there's nothing you can do; You may need Allies.
Helpful Army Building Guides
Previous Threads
Here's a bunch of Battle Reports for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Previously in the grim darkness...
Shadow Archmagi had a game
An Iron Hands' Land Raider Achilles is OP.
Cheesegear shows you what he's been playing with so far.
We now return you to the grim darkness...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tehnar
you might have problems with
- vehicle spam, waveserpents especially
- ignores cover will hurt
- hordes
- fast close combat
I've dealt with three Wave Serpents. Not easily. But I did. I don't expect to deal with more than three. But, I'm also not expecting to win every game I play because that's really, really hard currently.
Ignores Cover does hurt. That's why I'm tempted to cram in a Rune Priest just to stop that particular Power from going off.
Hordes die. Fast. Did you spot the double Thunderfire Cannons? Or the 30 Boltguns? Anyway, I dealt with 64 Kroot, and was relatively fine. I project that I could probably deal with ~80 models without too much trouble.
Fast close combat...Doesn't really come up. Have you been playing 6th Edition? The closest I came was Outflanking Kroot - which I can do with the Scouts, too. Which, I already said that I dealt with.
I'm welcome to solutions. The Drop Pod is for getting the Librarian in Psychic Shriek range which kills a Riptide in one go, and the Sternguard are just...Good. They make people fire at them instead of my Thunderfires or Devastators.
But, I'm welcome to suggestions if you think you can fix the list.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Uh, Cheesegear, the top post needs updating. Being rolled into Codex: Space Marines has made Black Templars playable again.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yaktan
Most excellent. Shadowsun's extra cover is very nice in my experience. My problem tends to be not having her run away enough and then people charge her and punch her in the face. :smallfrown:
How were the marker lights? I do not have any pathfinders, having focused more on building up my swarm of firewarriors and kroot.
Yeah, it could easily have gone south for me if he had succeeded on his assault roll (Which, admittedly, was improbable, as he was like 10 or 11 inches away at that point, so I decided that risking an assault was better than leaving cover.)
The markerlights were okay- I ended up using them mostly to buff my command squad rather than for a hail of accurate pulse fire like I'd planned. Being able to fire the cyclic ion gun and missile launcher on BS 5 (not to mention Shadowsun's dual fusion blasters on BS 7) made a difference.
I definitely have to admit that they'd have been more useful if I'd had a larger unit of fire warriors. I'm glad they were there, because if he'd tried to push my objective with an assault team, there would've been at least one turn where he was close enough to triggered Rapid Fire, and 18 shots at BS 5 or 6 would've stood a good chance of wiping his marines out before they assaulted.
That reminds me- Do Pathfinders get to fire their rifles *and* their markerlights, or do they have to pick one? Usually units fire all the guns they've got, right? But for some reason I could've sworn that Pathfinders had to pick. May just be a preconception from something else. Do they keep the markerlights if you arm them with railguns? That might be something to see.
(Also, I realize I could look this up on my own time, but I'm away from my Codex right now and I'll forget by the time I'm home- Is Overwatch a single shot, a single shot from each weapon, or all weapons firing their full value?)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
shadow_archmagi
Yeah, it could easily have gone south for me if he had succeeded on his assault roll (Which, admittedly, was improbable, as he was like 10 or 11 inches away at that point, so I decided that risking an assault was better than leaving cover.)
The markerlights were okay- I ended up using them mostly to buff my command squad rather than for a hail of accurate pulse fire like I'd planned. Being able to fire the cyclic ion gun and missile launcher on BS 5 (not to mention Shadowsun's dual fusion blasters on BS 7) made a difference.
I definitely have to admit that they'd have been more useful if I'd had a larger unit of fire warriors. I'm glad they were there, because if he'd tried to push my objective with an assault team, there would've been at least one turn where he was close enough to triggered Rapid Fire, and 18 shots at BS 5 or 6 would've stood a good chance of wiping his marines out before they assaulted.
That reminds me- Do Pathfinders get to fire their rifles *and* their markerlights, or do they have to pick one? Usually units fire all the guns they've got, right? But for some reason I could've sworn that Pathfinders had to pick. May just be a preconception from something else. Do they keep the markerlights if you arm them with railguns? That might be something to see.
(Also, I realize I could look this up on my own time, but I'm away from my Codex right now and I'll forget by the time I'm home- Is Overwatch a single shot, a single shot from each weapon, or all weapons firing their full value?)
Each individual model (Unless it's a Monstrous creature, vehicle, or has a rule that says it can make more shooting attacks, like Crisis Suits) can only fire a single gun in a turn. So, for example, a Space Marine has a boltgun and bolt pistol, but if the enemy is within 12", he has to choose between getting two shots with the boltgun or a single shot with the pistol, but being able to charge this turn.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Squark
Each individual model (Unless it's a Monstrous creature, vehicle, or has a rule that says it can make more shooting attacks, like Crisis Suits) can only fire a single gun in a turn. So, for example, a Space Marine has a boltgun and bolt pistol, but if the enemy is within 12", he has to choose between getting two shots with the boltgun or a single shot with the pistol, but being able to charge this turn.
This is correct, it also places the Riptide in the unusual situation of being able to shoot more guns a turn than it could ever carry (it only has primary/secondary and can shoot 3 guns per turn for base+MC+Multi-tracker).
As for the game itself I had a few thoughts:
Tau Anti-Armor is still pretty powerful but we sadly lost some punch from the broadsides so we're more reliant on Fusion now (though 18" melta is nice). I tend to run a little lighter on Fusion as we're pretty light on vehicles in our local meta (only 1 guard tank company player) and AV 14 is almost unheard of (a few of us have landraiders but they don't see much play with the number of drop-vets people run).
Pathfinders are nice but work best as a force multiplier, I typically don't worry about fielding them until higher point values as more bullets is generally better for not having the randomness of dice ruin your day. I typically run maybe a squad at 1000 and fairly typically 3 6-man teams at 1850. Be careful when you have ignores cover weapons on the table though since they've dropped to a 5+ armor from 4+ and that REALLY hurts their ability to survive against them.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
You're probably right about the pathfinders not being super good at this point. Let me just do some quick math-
Spoiler
Show
Let's assume we're fighting Space Marines, which I will be most of the time because they're popular.
Tau Pulse Rifle has, by default, can wound T4 units on 3+. That's a 4/6 chance, or 2/3rds, so if you figure the number of hits and multiply by 2/3rds you can find the number of expected wounds.
Squad of nine (my current arrangement) thus anticipates three wounds. Squad of fifteen (hypothetically, since you can't have a squad that big) would anticipate five wounds.
Now then, for a six-man pathfinder squad, you can average two markerlights, which changes the math a bit.
83% hit chance
55% of the squad will cause a wound. Squad of nine anticipates five wounds. Using six extra characters to cause two extra wounds works out to null. (Assuming pathfinders and fire warriors cost the same, which... I don't actually recall what they cost. Curses not having my Codex at work!)
Thus, even in a 500 point game, pathfinders are more or less equivalent to fire warriors in terms of end-result firepower, except that they come with the added bonus of being able to drop an Ignore Cover or ignore cover.
ADDITIONAL MATH, BECAUSE I WORK A JOB WHERE I HAVE FAR TOO FEW RESPONSIBILITIES:
But wait, not everyone is a space marine! What about T3 and T5?
Well, T3 means that you wound on a 2+, so 83% of potential wounds go through. So if your accuracy is 50%, fifteen dice becomes 7.5 hits becomes 6.2 wounds. If your accuracy is 83%, nine dice become 7.47 hits becomes 6.2 wounds.
I don't think I need to say that the math holds steady for T5. We're still breaking even on those pathfinders.
However, what if instead of 9, you had 12 fire warriors? Let's look at 12 markerlit vs 18 normal:
12 dice at 83% turn into 10 hits. 18 dice at 50% turn into 9 hits. Slight, but distinct advantage for the markers. Figure in gun drones, and the advantage becomes even clearer (of course, that means not taking shield drones, which I'm not clear on whether the meta favors that)
But what about an *above* average roll on the markerlights? What if you get four? Well, the gains from having a BS of above 5 are extremely small. Just for funsies, I'll post the whole BS list here (even though BS 10 is impossible to get for fire warriors with one squad of pathfinders):
BS 1: 17% chance to hit
BS 2: 33% chance to hit
BS 3: 50% chance to hit
BS 4: 66% chance to hit
BS 5: 83% chance to hit
BS 6: 86% chance to hit
BS 7: 89% chance to hit
BS 8: 91% chance to hit
BS 9: 94% chance to hit
BS 10: 97% chance to hit.
Trend emerges: Each BS below 6 is worth 16%, each after is worth only 3. Ergo, three rules of thumb emerge for pathfinders:
1. BS is best on inaccurate units, particularly drones. Going from 2 to 5 is far better than going from 5 to 8.
2. It's better to BS large groups than small ones, unless the small group is crisis suits.
3. It's better to BS multiple groups than kick a single group's BS sky high. One squad of pathfinders that rolls all-hits and boosts three squads of twelve fire warriors can claim to have caused twelve extra hits (or 24, if all 36 warriors are using rapid fire.)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zappit
With the new marine codex, an Iron Hands Achilles Land Raider is almost indestructible. It's immune to the lance and melta rules, has 14 armor on all sides, two twin-linked multi-meltas, AND a front-mounted Thunderfire Cannon. It can only carry six models, but if one is a Master of the Forge, that sucker will never run out of hull points.
If it simply has a Techmarine and a couple of servitors inside, it's going to automatically fix the hull anyway, and will be cheaper than buying a Master of the Forge. Oh, does a one auto-fail, if you pack enough servitors in?
Pretty badass.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
A good bit of math there and it is good general points for Tau players to look at, especially the BS boosts past BS 5. The only reason you'd have to boost BS to 6 for a unit is if it's incidental (boosting Firewarriors to BS 5 boosts the attached fireblade to BS7) or if you're firing a get's hot weapon (Riptide firing an over/nova-charged Ion Accelerator or a nova-charged Heavy Burst Cannon).
Really the best effect of markerlights comes down to who you're shooting at and with what weapons. The general rule of thumb is strip cover first if you'll reduce the save by 2 or more points or remove a save completely. If it's a 1 point reduction then weigh your options (some re-roll mechanics apply, like a demon with a 4+ cover or 5++ re-rollable is actually a NEGATIVE to strip), otherwise boost BS and be done with it.
Marker drones can be a good buy if you're going with crisis suits, they get JSJ/Relentless and if you use pathfinders for the first shots you can maintain accurate fire while suits focus on a unit or if you need to have another unit follow up to cleanup the last few models.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ishikar
A good bit of math there and it is good general points for Tau players to look at, especially the BS boosts past BS 5.
Thanks! :smallbiggrin:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ishikar
Really the best effect of markerlights comes down to who you're shooting at and with what weapons. The general rule of thumb is strip cover first if you'll reduce the save by 2 or more points or remove a save completely. If it's a 1 point reduction then weigh your options (some re-roll mechanics apply, like a demon with a 4+ cover or 5++ re-rollable is actually a NEGATIVE to strip), otherwise boost BS and be done with it.
Wait, don't they get to choose which save they prefer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ishikar
Marker drones can be a good buy if you're going with crisis suits, they get JSJ/Relentless and if you use pathfinders for the first shots you can maintain accurate fire while suits focus on a unit or if you need to have another unit follow up to cleanup the last few models.
What's JSJ? Agree on the marker drones though. Having thought about it more, it *does* seem rather like the Shield drone doesn't offer much over the Marker drone for the same point cost. It's an ablative wound either way, and the magic of jetpacking around all day means you can probably rely on having a cover save comparable to the invul save, so you're not rolling better dice with the shield. I guess it'd help if you planned on being out of cover and shot at with armor-piercing rounds, but that sounds like a terrible plan that would require more than a shield drone to make it reasonable.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
[QUOTE=shadow_archmagi;16041401]You always uses the best saving throw available to you."Jump, Shoot, Jump" It's the basic tactic with Jetpack units and Eldar Jetbikes.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Okay, does Blessing of the Omnissiah auto-fail on a 1?
Because...
2 Iron Hands Techmarines, in a squad with 3 Servitors, inside a Land Raider Achilles will be unkillable, building on ideas from before.
That might be overkill, so one Techmarine with 3 Servitors could do it. Automatically regain 1 Hull Point each turn, 2 Hull Points on a 5+. With an extra Techmarine, it's 2 each turn.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
To start a new subject, then i would dare to claim that all of the Eldar phoenix lords are actualy viable picks, and that the only bad HQ choice in the book is Yriel, who is just to suicidal.
But moving on to Jain Zar, then to start with i notice she has the duelist Exarch power, a 2+ save, as well as a AP 2 melee weapon with shred, making her a rather good duelist in my eyes.
And she will certainly also blend almost any type of infantry that gets in range, her Silent Death combines with charge bonus and additional hand weapon more or less being the equivalent to 10 S4 AP2 attacks.
Lastly, her Bashee Mask being wastly superios means it reduces enemy WS as well by 5, meaning that if she charge, then her unit will hit on 3+, and be hit on 5+ against any type of infantery i can imagine.
So, she wants to be with a unit that has plasma grenades, and then either lead them off into a charge, or else just split off from them and murderize someone on her own, if she spots a target outside of cover.
And as far as i can see, then viable picks for this would be either Dire Avengers, who like to get into medium range, and who would enjoy the protection from getting charged.
Or scorpions who also has grenades, are tough enough to follow her across the battlefield, and who could really use the WS debuff she brings to the table.
Or maybe just a unit of Wraithguards in a serpent. They dont have grenades, but then again i belive they are tough enough to not really care. And if they get dropped at the enemy flank early on, then he would have an annoying thorn in his side, that would both be extremely durable, as well as very hard to lock down in combat.
This would of course only aply to larger battles, where you can afford to use both your HQ slots. But i still belive its a viable choice.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
shadow_archmagi
Wait, don't they get to choose which save they prefer?
What's JSJ? Agree on the marker drones though. Having thought about it more, it *does* seem rather like the Shield drone doesn't offer much over the Marker drone for the same point cost. It's an ablative wound either way, and the magic of jetpacking around all day means you can probably rely on having a cover save comparable to the invul save, so you're not rolling better dice with the shield. I guess it'd help if you planned on being out of cover and shot at with armor-piercing rounds, but that sounds like a terrible plan that would require more than a shield drone to make it reasonable.
The first point depends on how one reads "best" when it comes to saves. Typically you have to roll what save gives you the largest chance of success on the first die (i.e. the 4+ in our scenario) even when the 5+ re-rollable is about 5% more likely to save you. It's a bit of a wonky rules as written and why most MCs for demons that aren't Nurgle tend to ignore most cover anyways. Doubly so with the loss of Null zone to the dust of ages.
As for shield drones they sadly got hit by the nerf bat with the edition/codex change. Before you could always distribute to them first no matter what (not reliant on directional shooting) and they had the same save/Toughness as what they were guarding in addition to the 4+ invulnerable (so shield drones on broadsides were 2+/4++). Shooting from nearest to furthest made shield drones more difficult to use against fast armies or deep strikers and then the adjustment of their armor and standardization of other drone costs made them a little underwhelming. The riptide as a T6 5 wound terminator in our elite slots also pulled back on how often we needed shield drones (missile spam destroys crisis teams but rarely phases a riptide) so now they're more situational than the old "3 suits, MP, PR, MT, Team Lead, drone controller, 2 shield drones" that Tau had to spam to be effective.
As for JSJ, you need to learn to live, love, and breathe that ability to really make Tau shine. You can use it with crisis teams to hop a wall, kill models and then return to hiding or to cover more ground in a turn to contest last turn (my record is 28" with a riptide). It lets you spread out after deep striking so your farsight bomb isn't completely obliterated by a vindicator shot or to get that last little bit of extra space to stretch an assault charge. Really the JSJ trick is 40K whack a mole but just made that much harder because the mole has to roll abnormally low to stay up where you'll even have a chance to hit (barring riptides, they're just too tall to hide well).
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bluntpencil
Okay, does Blessing of the Omnissiah auto-fail on a 1?
If it doesn't say you don't auto-fail on a 1, assume you don't.
Speaking of Codex Marines, I've been toying with the idea of a codex Marines detachment for ages. With the update, that's starting to look like an even better idea for my Space Wolves. However, I'm not sure what HQ and Troops I want, or which Chapter to go with, for that matter.
HQ: Masters of the Forge and Librarians are both decent options, while a Biker Captain unlocks Bikes as troops (Giving me some mobile scoring post drop pod). The bike captain inevitably becomes the most expensive of the three, I imagine, though. Question; Is command squads for all SM hq's unique to Dark Angels, or could I put a librarian in a drop pod with a command squad of meltaguns or grav-guns?
Troops: Tactical Squads are probably a mediocre idea, Grey Hunters being Grey Hunters. That leaves Sniper Scouts and Bikes. Bikes give me mobility and durability, while Scouts are cheap and can man the backfield. Bear in mind my heavy support slot is definately going to a Thunderfire Cannon, so the Scouts can reasonably count on having a 3+ cover save.
Chapters: Fluff-wise, Imperial Fists and Salamanders are the two that most appeal to me. Imperial Fits want bolters and devastators, though, neither of which I have in abundance. As for salamanders, I don't get too much out of the flame weapons thing, but giving the Techmarine Gunner, Scout Sergeant, and my HQ a master-crafted weapon isn't too shabby. Mechanically, White Scars have some potential for a biker detachment (But that feels a bit flavor of the month to me, honestly), while Iron Hands give the scouts feel no pain making them mildly more survivable.
So, I guess it comes down to whether I go with bikes (white scars) or scouts (Salamanders)? Any corrections, answers, and recommendations?
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Squark
Question; Is command squads for all SM hq's unique to Dark Angels, or could I put a librarian in a drop pod with a command squad of meltaguns or grav-guns?
The Dark Angel version allows their Chapter Master to take a command squad- whereas for the standard Marine book, only Captains, Librarians, and Chaplains (including special characters who are any of these) unlock command squads when taken.
Chapter Masters (including special characters who are chapter masters) unlock Honour Guard squads instead).
Masters of the Forge don't unlock command squads- and I don't think standard Terminator Captains, as written, do either- though Lysander does- you can take a command squad if you take him.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Played against new marines (Raven Guard) for the first time tonight, it was interesting. Will post more when I'm less tired. My main thought, post game, is "grav weapons are evil against MEQ"
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Squark
Is command squads for all SM hq's unique to Dark Angels, or could I put a librarian in a drop pod with a command squad of meltaguns or grav-guns?
Yes. The only HQs that can't have Command Squads are Chapter Masters and Masters of the Forge.
Quote:
As for salamanders, I don't get too much out of the flame weapons thing, but giving the Techmarine Gunner, Scout Sergeant, and my HQ a master-crafted weapon isn't too shabby.
If you're Salamanders, remember that the Flamer on the Techmarine is Twin-Linked. Second, Servo-Harness...
"A Servo-Harness gives the bearer an extra Servo-Arm..."
Does that mean two Servo-Arms? Because Masters of the Forge and Gunners start with Servo-Harnesses, and never have Servo-Arms to begin with, so what is the 'extra' one? This is crucially important, because, Servo-Arms, being Specialist Weapons, if you have two of them, you get an extra attack.
Why couldn't they just say 'two Servo-Arms'?
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[White Scars] feels a bit flavor of the month to me, honestly)
It feels like that because it is, and the reason it is, is that it's just so powerful.
Quote:
So, I guess it comes down to whether I go with bikes (white scars) or scouts (Salamanders)?
To go with Space Wolves? Are you packing a lot of Thunderwolves? Because I don't see what Bikes can do that your Thunderwolves aren't already doing, way better.
Scout Sergeant with a Master-Crafted Rifle sounds fun.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
To go with Space Wolves? Are you packing a lot of Thunderwolves? Because I don't see what Bikes can do that your Thunderwolves aren't already doing, way better.
Chiefly, they can Move 24" in one turn and still score, something neither Thunderwolves nor Grey Hunters can do.
But, it's looking like Salamanders will be a better plan. Easier on the wallet, too, since I just need 2 boxes of scouts as opposed to two boxes of bikes, grav guns, and an attack bike.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
How effective do you think a riptide on a quad gun would be? As mentioned above the riptide can fire three weapons, but only ever has two, so it could fire both guns it normally has as well as the quad gun.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yaktan
How effective do you think a riptide on a quad gun would be?
Sounds awful.
"One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon..."
A Riptide could fire his two weapons. Or, it could fire the Quad-Gun. This is how most people play it. In this case, firing a single weapon that the Riptide has is going to be better than the Quad-Gun.
If you need to bust out RAW, well, a Gun Emplacement isn't designed to be fired by Monstrous Creatures, let alone those with Multi-Trackers. Well, the Gun Emplacement rules only specify one weapon - no plural. So, technically, you can fire it, and another weapon. I'd check with your TO, or, at least point out that's what's going to happen to your oppoent before Deployment.
EDIT: So, instead of going with my gut. I decided to stat it out. I've been copping a bit of flakk for bringing back my 'Scout Company'. Even though the changes to Bolster Defences have made it stupidly good, people still don't believe me. Currently, the popular armies tend to simply just swarm the board. Orks, Tyranids, Kroot. Constant Troop spam seems to win games...Or, just having an unkillable Screamer Star to rampage around the board. The key to beating hordes is Boltguns (and Thunderfire Cannons). Funnily enough, Space Marine Troops have Boltguns in spades.
Then, we come back to Efficiency. Scouts are strictly worse than Tactical Marines. But they cost less. So, you can have more Scouts than Tactical Marines, does that even it out?
...Yes. Yes it does. Who's the idiot now?
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Had a pretty brutal rematch with the space wolves player, this time at 1000 points. I made the mistake of moving up my command squad without realizing that his Thunder Wolves could move through ruins, so they smashed through the building like a trio of viking koolaid men and ripped up my crisis suits.
Shortly after, they fell to a hail of pulse rifle fire, but my opponent had already bought himself the time and the first blood and warlord VPs that I couldn't come back. When the game ended, I still had the Hammerhead I'd brought along, and probably could've cleaned up his remaining forces with it, but the turn counter ran out.
I need to remember that the game has the potential end on turn 5, and try to play towards VPs rather than Annihilation.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
Sounds awful.
"One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can fire it instead of his own weapon..."
A Riptide could fire his two weapons.
Or, it could fire the Quad-Gun. This is how most people play it. In this case, firing a single weapon that the Riptide has is going to be better than the Quad-Gun.
If you need to bust out RAW, well, a Gun Emplacement isn't designed to be fired by Monstrous Creatures, let alone those with Multi-Trackers. Well, the Gun Emplacement rules only specify one weapon - no plural. So, technically, you can fire it, and another weapon. I'd check with your TO, or, at least point out that's what's going to happen to your oppoent before Deployment.
EDIT: So, instead of going with my gut. I decided to stat it out. I've been copping a bit of flakk for bringing back my 'Scout Company'. Even though the changes to Bolster Defences have made it stupidly good, people still don't believe me. Currently, the popular armies tend to simply just swarm the board. Orks, Tyranids, Kroot. Constant Troop spam seems to win games...Or, just having an unkillable Screamer Star to rampage around the board. The key to beating hordes is Boltguns (and Thunderfire Cannons). Funnily enough, Space Marine Troops have Boltguns in spades.
Then, we come back to Efficiency. Scouts are strictly worse than Tactical Marines. But they cost less. So, you can have more Scouts than Tactical Marines, does that even it out?
...Yes. Yes it does. Who's the idiot now?
I think part of the issue is that people have the tendency to think of their troops (particularly among marines, as we don't have bladestorm or sniper rifles on a tactical marine/grey hunter) as glorified special weapons carriers, and in that regard, a tactical squad does have the edge over a scout squad.
But, if the metagame is moving back towards hordes of infantry, that's very much a false assumption. Plus, with cheap devastators, who cares if that one missile launcher is a bit less accurate. Although you do give up some mobility since scout squads don't do as well in open terrain and lack transports. Then again, infiltrate.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Squark
I think part of the issue is that people have the tendency to think of their troops [...] as glorified special weapons carriers, and in that regard, a tactical squad does have the edge over a scout squad.
That's why you bring Sternguard-Devastator combos! Although I'm thinking about dropping the Sternguard for a Command Squad for cheaper.
I guess, right now. I don't believe that Codex Marines should be running Tactical Squads. Grey Hunters are just...Better. Just for the simple fact of dual Special weapons means the squad can move around and shoot, and Long Fangs' dual-targeting (not Split Fire!) more than makes up for the lack of Heavy weapons.
IMO; Tactical Squads aren't bad. Scouts and Bikes are just better options.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
IMO; Tactical Squads aren't bad. Scouts and Bikes are just better options.
I still like taking Tacticals so that for about 110 points I can have a rhino firing a plasma cannon and two bolters out of the top hatch.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jormengand
I still like taking Tacticals so that for about 110 points I can have a rhino firing a plasma cannon and two bolters out of the top hatch.
While Rhinos having three Fire Points would be a nice change, it doesn't exist.
Second, Rhinos suck and MSU is dead.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Is Shadowsun or Generic Commander better for a Riptide? Shadowsun can give rerolls on 1 (without sacrificing her guns) and a 4+ cover save all day every day, but the Generic Commander can pick up the signature systems to allow *all* misses rerolled, and cover to be ignored.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
shadow_archmagi
Is Shadowsun or Generic Commander better for a Riptide?
Infiltrating Riptides. lol. "Where did that giant robot come from!?"
The problem with Shadowsun is that she relies on Drones. But, if you only have one drone (the Command-link), then it should be fine. She's T3, the Drone is T4, and the Riptide is T6, meaning your Riptide stays T6 and can take a lot of damage.
But, like a Herald of Tzeentch, Shadowsun's Command Link has range, and she doesn't need to join the Riptide to be effective. A Buff Commander, does.
Ignores Cover isn't entirely useful for Tau, because they have Markerlights, and stripping cover is totally fine against most armies.
If Shadowsun is working for you. Keep her. Until you're busting out triple Skyrays and/or Hammerheads, Tau don't have a lot of options for anti-armour, and BS5 with dual Fusion Guns works fine.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Squark
If it doesn't say you don't auto-fail on a 1, assume you don't.
Speaking of Codex Marines, I've been toying with the idea of a codex Marines detachment for ages. With the update, that's starting to look like an even better idea for my Space Wolves. However, I'm not sure what HQ and Troops I want, or which Chapter to go with, for that matter.
HQ: Masters of the Forge and Librarians are both decent options, while a Biker Captain unlocks Bikes as troops (Giving me some mobile scoring post drop pod). The bike captain inevitably becomes the most expensive of the three, I imagine, though. Question; Is command squads for all SM hq's unique to Dark Angels, or could I put a librarian in a drop pod with a command squad of meltaguns or grav-guns?
Troops: Tactical Squads are probably a mediocre idea, Grey Hunters being Grey Hunters. That leaves Sniper Scouts and Bikes. Bikes give me mobility and durability, while Scouts are cheap and can man the backfield. Bear in mind my heavy support slot is definately going to a Thunderfire Cannon, so the Scouts can reasonably count on having a 3+ cover save.
Chapters: Fluff-wise, Imperial Fists and Salamanders are the two that most appeal to me. Imperial Fits want bolters and devastators, though, neither of which I have in abundance. As for salamanders, I don't get too much out of the flame weapons thing, but giving the Techmarine Gunner, Scout Sergeant, and my HQ a master-crafted weapon isn't too shabby. Mechanically, White Scars have some potential for a biker detachment (But that feels a bit flavor of the month to me, honestly), while Iron Hands give the scouts feel no pain making them mildly more survivable.
So, I guess it comes down to whether I go with bikes (white scars) or scouts (Salamanders)? Any corrections, answers, and recommendations?
Salamanders really excel with drop pods. They can come in, strike with twin-linked flamers, (and meltas, if you take Hestan) giving them both anti-infantry and anti-vehicle options. As a detachment, that might hit harder than scouts.
White Scars are hands down the best bikers. Run the captain cheap. Power weapon, artificer armor, and bike. Remember, fast units can swipe an objective in the last turn pretty easily. Ones that have the Hit and Run rule can do it even better.
Iron Hands would probably be the worst small detachment, seeing as how their rules are best exploited with vehicles or Dreadnoughts. That adds up in points quickly. Granted, with a Thunder Hammer, artificer armor, and the Shield Eternal, (and maybe a bike), an IH chapter master becomes a freaking melee nightmare that can take down just about anything. That's pricey, but give him some support, and an excellent complement to a Gunline army.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."
I decided to try Dark Reapers for a bit. This is the base list, and since this is for Vassal I can put in anything:
Spoiler
Show
1500 pts
Farseer, bike
8 Warlocks, bikes
3 Windriders, cannon
3 Windriders, cannon
3 Windriders, cannon
3 Windriders, cannon
6 Swooping Hawks, Exarch, Sunrifle
6 Warp Spiders, Exarch, Fast Shot, Rifle
Fire Prism, holofields
Now since I feel Dark Reapers are too vulnerable to be ran without a transport these are my options.
- 5 Dark Reapers, Starshot (S8 missiles), Exarch, Nightvision, Fast Shot
/w Waveserpent, holofields, scatter, cannon
- 5 Dark Reapers, Exarch, Nightvision
/w Falcon, holofields, Bright Lance, cannon
- 4 Dark Reapers, Starshot(S8 missiles), Exarch, Nighvision
/w Falcon, holofields, Bright Lance, cannon
What do you think?
