ABR Discussion Thread XVI: Matters of Futures Imperfect

[Darklord Bright]

Sorry if I've messed with anything I shouldn't have. Trying to jump back into FFF again after Bright disappeared for a while. (He fell off the Vendetta ages ago into a forest)

[The Gremlin]

Sorry if I've messed with anything I shouldn't have. Trying to jump back into FFF again after Bright disappeared for a while. (He fell off the Vendetta ages ago into a forest)

It seems alright to me.

[kpenguin]

Alright, here's my idea of how ABR's cosmology should go:

First, let's look at Avbaroy. Avbaroy, it seems is agreed upon, is a planet. A perfectly normal, spheroid planet, represented by a dot:


Now, Avbaroy exists on a plane, the material plane. Let's represent that in the diagram in geometric sense, as a flat two-dimensional surface. In actuality, the plane is infinitely large in four dimensions.


The other planes (Baator, Abyss, Celestia, etc.) exist parallel to the material plane, but with a different coordinate on another dimension. We can represent this on the diagram as a layers in the third dimension, but in actuality it would be a fifth dimension. This creates a five-dimensional universe:


Now, beyond this five-dimensional universes lie other universes with the same number of dimensions. These universes differ from the mainline ABR universe in different ways. The more different the universe, the further away it is from the mainline.

[Fawkes]

Okay, definitely not reading through today's five pages. Anything important happen?

[DoomITP]

Not really. Other than tiff got me to start playing gunz the duel

[BRC]

Okay, definitely not reading through today's five pages. Anything important happen?

MM didn't like how we were ripping off the DnD Cosmology, Nightwing came back, and that city was like that when I got there, you can't pin anything on me, and I don't know what happened to the body.

[memnarch]

Mostly just arguing about the DnD-based universe and where the planes should go, if we even have any.

kp, that's pretty much exactly what I was trying to get at earlier. Difference is, you put effort into it and I just talked about layered cakes.

*Backs that uni/multiverse setting*

[kpenguin]

You were? I thought you were just babbling about cheesecake.

Cheesecake is delicious, by the way.

[memnarch]

My original post on page 40

Brace yourself for another metaphor

Think of a universe as a layered cake. Each of the layers is a different plane, but they are all still in the same cake. The alternate universes would be the cakes that look similar to the first cake.

which was followed by nameless.

What kind of cake?

Leading to this.

CHEESECAKE!

Probably could have prevented some confusion if I hadn't been multitasking.


And yes, cheesecake is good.

[kpenguin]

Next question about Salmon:

Those cybernetic enhancements. Do they do anything? I mean, is salmon going to pull out a laser fingun any time soon?

Still waiting for an answer on this one.

[Lyinginbedmon]

I think they're either aesthetic or medicinal, Salmon doesn't seem to have used them for anything so they're probably to combat injuries sustained in the future time period.

And I worry what it could mean if they're aesthetic...

Alright, here's my idea of how ABR's cosmology should go:

First, let's look at Avbaroy. Avbaroy, it seems is agreed upon, is a planet. A perfectly normal, spheroid planet, represented by a dot:

Spoiler

Show

Now, Avbaroy exists on a plane, the material plane. Let's represent that in the diagram in geometric sense, as a flat two-dimensional surface. In actuality, the plane is infinitely large in four dimensions.


The other planes (Baator, Abyss, Celestia, etc.) exist parallel to the material plane, but with a different coordinate on another dimension. We can represent this on the diagram as a layers in the third dimension, but in actuality it would be a fifth dimension. This creates a five-dimensional universe:


Now, beyond this five-dimensional universes lie other universes with the same number of dimensions. These universes differ from the mainline ABR universe in different ways. The more different the universe, the further away it is from the mainline.

So what do we call this then? The Library concept?

I'm liking it so far.

[Threeshades]

I think they're either aesthetic or medicinal, Salmon doesn't seem to have used them for anything so they're probably to combat injuries sustained in the future time period.

And I worry what it could mean if they're aesthetic...


So what do we call this then? The Library concept?

I'm liking it so far.

Kpenguin's complete theory of the file-drawer multiverse.

[Ninja Chocobo]

So what do we call this then? The Library concept?

Call it L-Space. Of course I'm joking. Our problem was we were ripping off too much from other things.
EDIT: Just noticed I missed out on running for Vampire ITP. Expletive.

[Mad Mask]

I find that the I've Got An Entire Dimension Prepared for Just My Afterlife Model is better. Note that I am absolutely not serious.

I should have a model of a "cosmology" released soon.

[The Gremlin]

I find that the I've Got An Entire Dimension Prepared for Just My Afterlife Model is better. Note that I am absolutely not serious.

I should have a model of a "cosmology" released soon.

Yeah, but we don't want to get rid of every other plane. After all, a lot of them (like Mechanus)have already been mentioned.
I guess I'm for kP's idea.

[Lavidor]

Call it the Cheesecake Multiverse Theory.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go bake something.

[kpenguin]

Just as space is nigh-infinite in three dimensions and time is nigh-infinite in four, so too can the ABR universe be infinite in the fifth dimension. My model allows for an infinite number of planes. However, since they all run parallel to each other, one would require a means of fifth dimensional travel to reach them.

[Shades of Gray]

The Following Planes have been mentioned in either FFF or the Skornbail Incident by Oliver. I'm also including other planes.

Arborea (Once, Skornbail Incident
Mechanus (Once, FFF)
Shadow (Once, FFF)
Water (Once, FFF)
Earth (Once, FFF)
Air (Once, FFF)
Astral (Once, Skornbail, No effect)
Fire (Often)
Baator (Extensively in Lying's Backstory)
Celestia (Backstory)
Carceri (Backstory)
Ovu Mashuganah (Forgot the spelling)(Lesser)
Pineapples (Joke)
Snakes (FFF, Lesser)
Catgirls (Lesser, may be part of the material plane)

@KP, interesting, but I have always thought that the inner planes (Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Positive, Negative) were seperate from the outer planes (Ysgard, Gehenna, etc.)

'course, in my cosmology, I merged the following:

Fire, Negative, Hades =Destruction
Water, Positive, Elysium =Sustenance
Air, Limbo= Spontaneity
Earth, Mechanus= Graduality.

[kpenguin]

I've been giving thought to the inner planes. Because they are often channeled into the material plane for various reasons and it seems easy enough to do so, I believe that they are congruent rather than parallel to the planes.

[Mad Mask]

My idea was that, instead of having a separate dimension for each "plane", let's have only one "plane" containing all of the others: the Shadow Plane, parallel to the Physical Universe.

In this Shadow Plane, there is one sector parallel to Avbaroy's planetary system. In Avbaroy's place, there is the Afterlife, a complete body containing the souls of most sapient hominids. In this sector, there are thousands of "demiplanes", built by the gods to house the souls of their choice (benevolent deities will bring benevolent souls, chaotic deities will bring chaotic souls, etc).

Unwanted souls instead go to the Afterlife, which is documented in one of my previous posts. Some of the "demiplanes" correspond to the planes that Shades of Gray mentioned, at least Celestia, Mechanus, the Snake Plane, Carceri, among others. These locations are those that can be visited the most easily, while the Afterlife is more restricted.

[Kazul]

What if we just keep inner planes + astral & shadow + Mechanus & Limbo + the neutral evil and good planes, whatever their names weren't. I mean that would leave us with essentials powers defining the universe, it will make our world less complicated, and it is pretty much like the Shades theory.

Edit: /\ Thats not a bad idea either

[Mad Mask]

What if we just keep inner planes + astral & shadow + Mechanus & Limbo + the neutral evil and good planes, whatever their names weren't. I mean that would leave us with essentials powers defining the universe, it will make our world less complicated, and it is pretty much like the Shades theory.

My goal was to make the planes known to Avbaroy less important in the grand scale of things. Aliens who come from other galaxies won't have to deal with the same demons as those who come from Avbaroy.

[Shades of Gray]

@Kazul, Hmmm... That would work, but what about Baator? Lying has used Baator extensively.

How about we just cut out the inconsistent planes? (Ysgard, Gehenna, Beastlands, Acheron, Carceri, Arcadia, Pandemonium) they are all caught in a middle ground (ex, Carceri is CEE, whereas Pandemonium is CCE)

That leaves"

Baator
Abyss
Hades
Celestia
Elysium
Arborea
Limbo
Mechanus
All the inner Planes
Astral/Ethereal
Shadow.

We can again merge these, if you want, into the Fire+Hades+Negative=Destruction, Water+Elysium+Positive=Sustenance etc. I discussed.

[Mad Mask]

It will work. Baator can be in the Afterlife main body, and have a war on the demons of the False Abyss (where the Shades' originally came from).

EDIT: Shadow is the the plane containing all of these "planes".

V: OK.

[Shades of Gray]

@Mad Mask, I was responding to Kazul.

[Kazul]

@MM: I think I got your point finally. That is, that we can assume the other planes are other planets (your idea) OR that the other planets are actually another minor planes or demiplanes. The problem is they are in fundamental conflict in each other, one being extremely fantasy like, while the other - sci-fi one. So we get back to the previous subject - do we want ABR to be more DnD or sci-fi like? You know, given the origin of ABR the answer should be quite easy, but with the whole Sovice, Q, Schizotech, cyborg Salmon and things like that I am not sure anymore. Unless we just say Distantous and Sovice planets are another planes, I have currently no idea good enough for anyone.

@Shades: Well, there are still many planes, but I actually like it. Think it would be neat if we (according to your idea) group them not by their alignment, but by the other powers/feelings/ideas they represent - that would be quite interesting and original, I think.

[Mina Kobold]

Hmm. I like the ideas. In Mad Mask's the sun seems to be a good choise for fire plane, wouldn't it? But I'm gonna back up Kpenguins idea, but it could be a little changed for making everybody happy.

[Shades of Gray]

@Kazul

Well, the ideas I had were graduality, spontaneity, Sustenance, and destruction. These are distinctly related to the alignments. I could come up with some ideas for how to group them, but thematically, this is the best one that I have so far.

My goal was to cut the number of planes, which I succeeded in. They went from 22 outer and inner planes total, to a mere 8. (This is with the new one scheme)

The Planes in my new plan are:

Destruction
Sustenance
Graduality
Spontaneity
Hell (Baator)
Heaven (Celestia)
Bleakness (The Abyss)
Undisturbed Nature (Arborea)

Now, we can have subplanes, fitting with Mad mask's earlier "Planets within a plane" idea.

Arborea's Subplanes (planets) are; Beastlands and Ysgard
Baator's Subplanes are; Acheron and Gehenna
Bleakness(Abyss)'s Subplanes are; Pandemonium and Carceri
Heavens subplanes are; Bytopia and Arcadia.

Graduality, Sustenance, Spontaneity, and Destruction are less of a plane, and more of a creating force. The beings living in Mechanus (Graduality) are part of a daily regime, often having one simple job. People (Even the most Lawful of all) will even find it boring. Limbo (Spontaneity) is far too strange to comprehend, even some of the most chaotic will go mad. Similarily, some of the most evil beings will be disgusted at the goings-ons of Destruction, and beings of intense holiness and good will feel guilty seeing the wonders of Sustenance.

[Kazul]

Totally fine with it, Shades. And they can all be put (as Mad Mask had said before our discussion) in the shadow plane, making astral some kind of connection between them. The Heaven and Hell (Celestia & Baator with subplanes) may be organized MM way and be in general harder to get into.

Now we just have to calm down and wait for others to drop a line about the idea.

[Lyinginbedmon]

I'm gonna sound like an idiot for saying this but:

Can I get a diagram for that concept?