Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.

[dsmiles]

Hm. Yo. Off topic a bit, here..

Uh, hey guys, I grabbed myself a couple melta chicks from the FLGS. How good are they, exactly? Should I convert them to flamers, put them in a (dominion) squad, or set them up at an even 1/1 between my troops so that each has a flamer and a melta? I'm no tactical genius, by far.

I face Orks, 'nids, IG and soon Tau and Eldar, if that helps. Only the last three have tanks, though the nids have huge.. Pointy things.

From personal experience (as a Tau player, I hate to say this), if you are fighting Tau, make a fast-moving-high-assault list. If you can close on the Tau quickly and pummel the crap out of them, it's simply game over.

[Winterwind]

if you want to exterminate nidzillas, Typhus is an excellent character. 50/50 shot at a wound, counts as a force weapon. ZZT. you even get to take a shot with a template first!

Aren't Tyranids immune to instant death most of the time?

[Wraith]

'Nids are only Immune to "Instant Death caused by weapons with a Strength double of the creature's toughness", and even then only if they are within range of a Synapse creature (usually a HQ choice, or Elite/Heavy of you have Tyranid Warriors/upgraded Zoanthropes in play).

Force Weapons and other 'instant death' psychic powers will work on them just fine, though

[Selrahc]

How are force weapons worded again? I seem to recall an argument on here as to whether tyranids were immune due to the wording of force weapons.

[hamishspence]

Thats as of the last codex- in the new one, Warriors are troops.

Has anyone any info on what rules changes have been made? Is Synapse still the same?

[Cheesegear]

From personal experience (as a Tau player, I hate to say this), if you are fighting Tau, make a fast-moving-high-assault list.

Since he's playing Sisters; Fast-moving, heavy assaulting is not playing to his strength. Sisters' strength is fast-moving short-to-medium ranged firepower. A Sisters' WS and S are 3. Whereas their BS and (standard Bolter) strength is 4. I know which I'd want to do.

The only Sisters' unit that has any business being in Assault are Seraphim (Celestians only have one attack, and at S3...Really not that good). My Sisters Repentia have failed at everything they've ever done. So, I hate them. Though, Arco-Flagellants do quite well if you can get a vehicle blockade set up so they don't get shot at.

And, even then; Sisters' 'assault wargear' consists of power weapons and S6 Chainfists.

But, that being said, just about any army there is can out-assault Tau. If they can get into assault. A 'Rhino Rush' shooty army like the Sisters (at least, that's how they're competitively played) tends to not do well if the Tau get the first turn.

[Calsan]

Note to self buy a couple of bikes and some more Assault marines to fight Tau.

[Cheesegear]

Note to self buy a couple of Bikes to fight everything.

Fixed it for you.

[Wraith]

Thats as of the last codex- in the new one, Warriors are troops.

Has anyone any info on what rules changes have been made? Is Synapse still the same?

The new one is released in January - so, for the next, precious month, what I just said is still true....

As for what will be involved in the NEW Codex, a list of rumours for you to peruse: Link!

[Trixie]

The problem with killing carnifexes or hive tyrant is mostly in the to-wound step. I'm thinking the weapons you have listed is for your 5 terminators, so 4 lightning claw attacks, 3 chainfist attacks (not sure how they differ from normal power fists), and an average of 7 deamon weapon attacks.

Um... LC were listed per Terminator. Which translated to 16-20 rerolling LC attacks. Chainfists were just gravy 10 str attacks to sure-kill anything that can withstand 22-28 I4-5 attacks from the rest of the unit

Okay... does anyone know which one of the 'real' Demon Princes has the correct base?

Spoiler

Show

DEMON PRINCE
+Mark of Tzeentch
+Wings
+Warptime
+Wind of Chaos
205 pts

THOUSAND SONS
Sorcerer
+Doombolt
+Personal Icon
8 TSons
259 pts

THOUSAND SONS
Sorcerer
+Doombolt
+Personal Icon
7 TSons
236 pts

RHINO
35 pts

RHINO
35 pts

OBLITERATORS [reserve]
3 Obliterators
225 pts

+Dozer Blade, Melta Bobmbs or Rhino Bolter for 5 pts... which one?

1000 pts

Spoiler

Show

DEMON PRINCE
+Mark of Tzeentch
+Wings
+Warptime
+Wind of Chaos
205 pts

THOUSAND SONS
Sorcerer
+Doombolt
+Personal Icon
8 TSons
259 pts

THOUSAND SONS
Sorcerer
+Doombolt
+Personal Icon
7 TSons
236 pts

RHINO
35 pts

RHINO
35 pts

OBLITERATORS [reserve]
3xObliterator
225 pts

OBLITERATORS [reserve]
3xObliterator
225 pts

TERMINATORS [reserve]
4xTerminator
+Chainfist (or 3x combi-melta)
135 pts

VINDICATOR
+Posession
145 pts

1500 pts

And also, final version. This time I'll ask what would be this army's weakness - does it lack anything?

Question! Does the fact that Rhino is open-topped means the TS can rapidfire anyone from it? And throw spells from it? And use icons? And why the hell there's no 'deep strike' in 5th edition rulebook's index? Is staying in Rhino even safe, or should I disembark them as soon as possible?

[Cristo Meyers]

Um... LC were listed per Terminator. Which translated to 16-20 rerolling LC attacks. Chainfists were just gravy 10 str attacks to sure-kill anything that can withstand 22-28 I4-5 attacks from the rest of the unit

Okay... does anyone know which one of the 'real' Demon Princes has the correct base?

Spoiler

Show

DEMON PRINCE
+Mark of Tzeentch
+Wings
+Warptime
+Wind of Chaos
205 pts

THOUSAND SONS
Sorcerer
+Doombolt
+Personal Icon
8 TSons
259 pts

THOUSAND SONS
Sorcerer
+Doombolt
+Personal Icon
7 TSons
236 pts

RHINO
35 pts

RHINO
35 pts

OBLITERATORS [reserve]
3 Obliterators
225 pts

+Dozer Blade, Melta Bobmbs or Rhino Bolter for 5 pts... which one?

1000 pts

Spoiler

Show

DEMON PRINCE
+Mark of Tzeentch
+Wings
+Warptime
+Wind of Chaos
205 pts

THOUSAND SONS
Sorcerer
+Doombolt
+Personal Icon
8 TSons
259 pts

THOUSAND SONS
Sorcerer
+Doombolt
+Personal Icon
7 TSons
236 pts

RHINO
35 pts

RHINO
35 pts

OBLITERATORS [reserve]
3xObliterator
225 pts

OBLITERATORS [reserve]
3xObliterator
225 pts

TERMINATORS [reserve]
4xTerminator
+Chainfist (or 3x combi-melta)
135 pts

VINDICATOR
+Posession
145 pts

1500 pts

And also, final version. This time I'll ask what would be this army's weakness - does it lack anything?

Question! Does the fact that Rhino is open-topped means the TS can rapidfire anyone from it? And throw spells from it? And use icons? And why the hell there's no 'deep strike' in 5th edition rulebook's index? Is staying in Rhino even safe, or should I disembark them as soon as possible?

Fire Points determines how many models can shoot from the Rhino. I'm pretty sure a Rhino only has 2 or 3, so staying in the Rhino is severly limiting your firepower. As for casting spells, I'm pretty sure that you can do that. Icons: it wouldn't matter, your opponent can't shoot a unit that is inside a vehicle and the Icon doesn't grant any bonuses to the vehicle, so the point is pretty moot. Deep Striking on a Icon, though, you just appear within 6 inches of the vehicle.

My Rhino usually runs up, plants the unit within Rapid Fire range of the enemy, and then heads back out of range to start raining Havoc Launcher missles on the enemy. Of course, this tactic requires Havoc Launcher upgrades.

[Etcetera]

This question comes up loads.
Rhinos have two firepoints.
Firing from Rhinos is pretty rare anyway, I've seen them used more a mobile cover.

[Mattarias, King.]

Response spoilered for length. Yeah, I plan on getting me two sets of seraphim for to fight Tau and IG I suppose. Fast and hard-hitting. With possibly three AP1 flamer templates.

Spoiler

Show

...Because Sisters just aren't supposed to get that close to the enemy. Unless they can kill everything in the shooting phase with AP1 Flamer templates.

My sisters are great at that. Also took out a ten-squad of boyz in close combat with only five casualties. It was glorious.

...But, it all depends on what you actually want to do with the unit in question. My opinion is that you should always have a unit of meltagun Dominions on standby. And, if you have the currency, a second unit of Dominions for all-Flamer fun. Dominions with Storm Bolters are just superfluous.

Oh, totally. Planning on that. Seraphim are a bigger priority for me first though.

But...Sisters are all about the Storm Bolters...They're part of the Holy Trinity (Bolter, Melta, Flamer)...

Eeehh.. They're really not THAT different from regular bolters, honestly. ...And not as cool, in my opinon.

Also, Dominions should go into Immolators (not Rhinos)...

This was pretty much a given. Extra fire that causes morale checks? Sign me up!

Count As...Or Proxy?

I almost hate you. Proxy, I suppose. Used some repainted D&D minis. What's the difference between the two terms?

[Winterwind]

Eeehh.. They're really not THAT different from regular bolters, honestly. ...And not as cool, in my opinon.

Not having to close into assault range in order to not sacrifice half the firepower is "not that different"?

[crazedloon]

I almost hate you. Proxy, I suppose. Used some repainted D&D minis. What's the difference between the two terms? [/spoiler]

I would say that is a stop gap between what I think he means. Counts as I believe is where you grab a deodorant can, the remains of your lunch and a piece of paper as your newest unit of tanks while proxy is where you grab your models and agree some are not what the appear such as the dark reapers are saraphim.

[Lorn]

I would say that is a stop gap between what I think he means. Counts as I believe is where you grab a deodorant can, the remains of your lunch and a piece of paper as your newest unit of tanks while proxy is where you grab your models and agree some are not what the appear such as the dark reapers are saraphim.

Personally, I'd disagree.

Both of the examples above: Proxy, although the former is possibly a little less good.



Count-as: Stuff like "I've given this Hellhound tank legs, which count as a dozer blade." (Last codex, the two things came together - Rough Terrain Modification - and had the same effect as they do now, basically.) Or maybe "This guy has two plasma pistols, I'm paying the points for a Mastercrafted plasma pistol to represent him firing both at once as the rules for Twin-Linked and the rules for Mastercrafted, when you get to the crunch, are exactly the same."

Or even "This unit of humans in my Tau army count as Fire Warriors - they're human auxiliaries."

Something more plausible that you might be able to get away with instore or in a more "official" sense, basically.

[Winterwind]

Isn't the difference essentially
Counts As: "This unit of pulse-rifle-armed humans in my Tau army count as Fire Warriors - they're human auxiliaries."
Proxy: "This unit of humans in my Tau army count as Fire Warriors - they're human auxiliaries. Even though the models carry lasguns, they are actually armed with pulse-rifles."
?

In other words, Counts As is when the model looks differently than what it is supposed to be, but still reflects all equipment and rules, whereas Proxy has nothing to do with what it is supposed to be whatsoever anymore?

[Mattarias, King.]

Not having to close into assault range in order to not sacrifice half the firepower is "not that different"?

.....Ssssssh. I'm not completely entrenched in the jargon yet. Besides, I kinda like assault range. It's dangerous. Also flamer range.

But arright, I get it. "This fire sword counts as a masterwork power weapon" is counts-as, and "These devotees of the silver flame are seraphim" is proxy. Gotcha.

[dsmiles]

Hey. Im'ma let'choo finish, but can anyone tell me why, in the C'tan's name, a Necron player wouldn't take a monolith in a 3000 point game?

[Myatar_Panwar]

And also, final version. This time I'll ask what would be this army's weakness - does it lack anything?

Question! Does the fact that Rhino is open-topped means the TS can rapidfire anyone from it? And throw spells from it? And use icons? And why the hell there's no 'deep strike' in 5th edition rulebook's index? Is staying in Rhino even safe, or should I disembark them as soon as possible?

Your armies weakness is probably its troops. Two sets of troops means you can only hold two objectives max.

And Rhinos are not open-topped.

[Zorg]

Hey. Im'ma let'choo finish, but can anyone tell me why, in the C'tan's name, a Necron player wouldn't take a monolith in a 3000 point game?

He was really happy for the monolith, but heavy destroyers are one of the best heavy support choices of all time. One of the best heavy support choices of all time.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Proxy is using models in place of other models, counts as is using the rules of existing units to represent non-existing units. Counts as models are tournament legal with the agreement of the referees.

This thread has enough examples, but if I were to say "these coins are genestealers" that would be proxy, if I were to say "this custom monster on a carnifex size base has the stats of a carnifex" that would be counts as.

Some units have (or used to have) no official models and had to be converted or used "counts as".

Hey. Im'ma let'choo finish, but can anyone tell me why, in the C'tan's name, a Necron player wouldn't take a monolith in a 3000 point game?

Not everyone builds their armies purely along stragetic lines.

[DaedalusMkV]

He was really happy for the monolith, but heavy destroyers are one of the best heavy support choices of all time. One of the best heavy support choices of all time.

3k means either Apocalypse or 2 FOCs, so there's no competition there. I really do not see a reason not to take a Monolith or four in 3k.

Also- You're joking, right? Please? Heavy Destroyers are a joke... Stupid internet hard-to-determine-sarcasm.

EDIT: Counts-as vs proxy: Proxy is when I say "These Guardsmen are proxying Space Marines". They clearly aren't WYSIWYG in any way, all I'm doing is pretending to use something else. Counts-as is when I say "This Rapier Laser Destroyer counts-as a Lascannon team" or "That phenominally large sword counts as a power fist". Usually counts-as applies more to abnormal wargear and converted vehicles than entire units, though I've seen entire counts-as armies. Basically, counts-as produces a consistant, effectively WYSIWYG result while proxy does not. Usually, counts-as results in "okay, that makes sense" while proxy results in "if you say so" or "no, I don't want to do that".

[dsmiles]

He was really happy for the monolith, but heavy destroyers are one of the best heavy support choices of all time. One of the best heavy support choices of all time.

I'm questioning this player's sanity, or maybe just his luck. My Skyray and Hammerheads took out his 3 heavy destroyers within the first three rounds. They barely moved, not even to get into cover. I had pathfinders on a hill, and another squad on the flat, but close enough to use their markerlights, lighting them up with markerlights every turn, and all the HDs did was blow up the pathfinders' devil fish (There were 2, so, "devil fishes," maybe?). After that, the HDs were sleepin' with the fishes.

His deployment wasn't bad, but we were playing deep strike rules, and my Shas'El, now Shas'O, and his crisis suit bodyguard (2 suits) deep struck in (finally, a deep strike on target!) and damn near took out his HQ in one turn. I don't know much about necrons, but I think it was a necron lord.

I don't know, but I do know that my Shas'El finally got promoted!

[Zorg]

3k means either Apocalypse or 2 FOCs, so there's no competition there. I really do not see a reason not to take a Monolith or four in 3k.

Also- You're joking, right? Please? Heavy Destroyers are a joke... Stupid internet hard-to-determine-sarcasm.

3k means 3k points - multiple FOCs or Apoc are agreed on by the players, not the points values. You could play Apoc or 3 FOCs at 1000 points if you want (and can fill 6 troops and 3 HQs at that level, but the point stands )

And yes, I was joking - see Kanye West at the VMAs and Dsmile's own Kanye joke I quoted... (extra irony as everyone's saying Monoliths are better and Taylor Swift won by popular vote - take that Kanye West!)

[Cheesegear]

My Skyray and Hammerheads took out his 3 heavy destroyers within the first three rounds. They barely moved, not even to get into cover.

...He was doing it wrong. Heavy Destroyers are Jetbikes (Relentless) with Lascannons. They should always be moving at least 12" a turn. His targets should've been your Skyray and Hammerhead. If things were getting dicey, he should've been turbo-boosting for 4+ cover saves.

But, yeah...In 3000 points, he should've been rocking at least two Monoliths.

There were 2, so, "devil fishes," maybe?

'Fish' is it's own plural. Like sheep. One Devilfish. Two Devilfish. Red Devilfish. Blue Devilfish.

sleepin' with the fishes.

...One of the more 'classic' grammatical errors ever seen. And only serves the purpose to make people believe that 'fishes' is a real word. And is a quote cited in many arguments concerning the subject. Don't people realise that it's possible that a source can be wrong?

I don't know much about necrons, but I think it was a necron lord.

Necron Lords are the only HQ option Necrons have. So it defintely was. And I'm fairly certain that you didn't take his Lord out - not even almost. Because if I know anything, the Lord should've had a Phylactery to get back up - at least twice - to kill you dead.

However, being that he didn't have any Monoliths, and his tactics concerning Heavy Destroyers are questionable at best; I doubt he was doing this.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

.


...One of the more 'classic' grammatical errors ever seen. And only serves the purpose to make people believe that 'fishes' is a real word. And is a quote cited in many arguments concerning the subject. Don't people realise that it's possible that a source can be wrong?

I've always heard it as "sleepin' with the fishies", but that's kinda OT.

[Wraith]

...One of the more 'classic' grammatical errors ever seen. And only serves the purpose to make people believe that 'fishes' is a real word. And is a quote cited in many arguments concerning the subject. Don't people realise that it's possible that a source can be wrong?

The grammar is bad but the quote is accurate (From 'The Godfather' and much parodied by 'The Simpsons' as I recall), so in the true spirit of political correctness You're Both Right!

Hey. Im'ma let'choo finish, but can anyone tell me why, in the C'tan's name, a Necron player wouldn't take a monolith in a 3000 point game?

Because he's spent the points on three Pylons instead? I don't know the Necron codex very well, but I've seen the stats on those things and anything that drops a template of Strength 'D' is ALWAYS a viable option in 3k!

[Winterwind]

Because he's spent the points on three Pylons instead? I don't know the Necron codex very well, but I've seen the stats on those things and anything that drops a template of Strength 'D' is ALWAYS a viable option in 3k!

Pylons have no template. Just three regular shots. At least, that's what my Apocalypse book says.

[Mattarias, King.]

@dsmiles: Promoted? Is this in one of those cool ongoing game -type things, or did you just get a higher point total to play with?