Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.

[Myatar_Panwar]

It also has shooting potential, so he didn't want to compare it to the others where its simply a melee comparison.

Though it would be the same as Slaanesh.

[Cheesegear]

Lesson(s) Learned:
- I should've brought a Land Raider.
- I should've decked out for anti-vehicle even though I did not anticipate heavy vehicle presence.
- Holy Rage is awesome!
- Sisters Repentia are awesome!
- Penitent Engines SUCK! They're like big blocks of C4 wrapped in moist tissue paper!
- I should've brought a Land Raider.

First, Sisters don't have access to 'Heavy Support' Land Raiders. Land Raiders are only available in Witch Hunters as a Dedicated Transport option for Inquisitors. So, there's always that particular problem of being forced to take an Inquisitor if you want a Land Raider.

Penitent Engines are pretty bad, especially since you're also forced to take a Priest in the army as well. Sometimes it's just not worth it. Are you using three PEs? That makes them pretty hard. PEs are like Killa Kans, by themselves, they suck pretty badly. Three of them, makes them deadly.
Priests only belong in Sisters Repentia squads. So, I hope you're doing that.

...Puritan Sisters players also like taking twin Exorcists instead of three PEs. The points cost is nearly the same too. Most Sisters armies are actually light on anti-vehicle (that's where double Exorcists come in). So...You're not alone there.

The bikes were originally envisaged as a powerfist / meltabombs to the back of a tank type arrangement working in conjunction with the attack bike.

As far as that goes, keep in mind that only a Sergeant can take a Powerfist or Melta Bombs. And he can only use one at a time. So, I like Power Weapon + Melta Bombs (comes out at less points too) in that case. Probably don't even waste your time if you're packing as many meltaguns and Multi Meltas as you are.

The 1000 point list looks good.
1500 point list - now with more Troops - is pretty awesome. Given that your Dreadnought now has a Drop Pod, he gets to be 'saved until later' (Reserves), and, since he's in a Drop Pod, you can land near buildings and have no fear. Best tactic is put your DS marker on a unit in cover. If you scatter, you'll be off the terrain. If you don't scatter, you'll get Inertial Guidance and be forced away from the terrain anyway. In your shooting phase, unload that Heavy Flamer into the terrain with unit inside.

I have to wonder though, if all that Melta-ing goodness isn't taking inspiration from someone else's list...
If you have the money to spare, or a lot of magnets, make sure you can turn those Multi-Meltas and Meltaguns into Heavy Bolters and Plasmaguns when you need to. You'll thank me later. Plasma weapons work on Avatars.

My tips for dealing with Avatars; Sniper Rifles, Heavy Bolters with Hellfire Rounds (with the amount of melta I have in my 1000 point list I changed my Scout's ML to HBwHR, now they can deal with hordes and MC's, everything else can deal with vehicles), and more Hellfire rounds. Or have a model with a really good Invulnerable save (Storm Shield will work) and punch it's nose in.
It sucks that Blood Angels don't have access to Relic Blades. It's like whoever wrote the list has never heard of The Blade Encarmine.
(These days not many people have though. Bloodquest is so cool, and so out-of-print. )

Slightly on-topic: the Tyranid section of Cheesegear's guide may need updating soon .

Not really. No. Gargoyles and Raveners are now plastic. So, even less metal models for all involved. Hormagaunts and Termagants now come in separate boxes with more models of each in each box.
So, in AU prices; I used to pay $100 for 16 Termagants and 16 Hormagaunts. Unlike some people, I actually wanted the Termagants.
Now, I pay $82 for 12 of each. Or 24 of one...Since I no longer need to buy the 'split box'...
Basically, 'Nids are even cheaper, or slightly more expensive. Depending on what you want.

However, it's still a horde list, that needs big monsters to function. No tactics-changing necessary. Like Space Marines, all they're really getting is some extra bling. You still need your old tactics.
Just like Space Wolves, even with the new Codex, nothing has really changed from 3rd Ed. Codex except for the addition of actual wolves.

Warriors, now being Troops selection might change the outlook. Now you can have a real 'Big Bugs' list. I'll probably end up trying that. I already have 18 Warriors. What?
I believe that Hive Tyrants suck compared to Warriors.

And I like elite forces that don't find the mold (making a Bike Company, and another separate Terminator Company comes to mind). So, Warrior Hive activate!

Most of the new 'bling' units like the Pyrovore and Venomthrope will probably be functionally useless or nowhere near as good as something else because they cost too many points.

For those who want to know about Daemon Weapons, here be the math.

Nobody who knows what they're doing plays Math-Hammer. Ask any Ork player. Your Ballistic Skill may be an almighty 2, but, that doesn't mean you can't hit 12 times on 15 dice - when the Math says that's actually how much they should miss. Just because a Marine's ballistic skill is 3, doesn't mean they can't hit twice out of 10 dice (even though their Bolters are Twin-Linked Am I bitter, not at all).

As soon as dice hit the table, Math-Hammer ceases to work.

As I understand it, all the Daemon Weapons also do different things - like being ranged weapons and the like. They're just not really comparable.

Originally posted by Cheesegear (that's me!)
40K is a dice game. Where hardly anything 'on paper' works like it should. One of the White Dwarf team once said "Warhammer doesn't play averages." basically saying that Math-Hammer doesn't work.

Math-Hammer is Theoretical Tactics. It's like saying "Haha...I have so many Multi Meltas no vehicles can get past my army." and then coming up against a no-vehicle Eldar army led by an Avatar. Or saying "I'm going to Deep Strike my Crisis Suits so good..." and then having them land in a volcano.
I much prefer Learn-From-Experience Tactics, which work (ask a veteran Necron or Dark Eldar player). Which is why a newbie losing his first few games is good for him.

You can't ascribe hard Logic to a game dictated by soft and fuzzy Chance.


As an aside, with all this Chaos talk running around, does anyone want to send PMs to elaborate on the CSM section of the OP? Or are you going to make me buy the Chaos Codex just for this exercise? Because all that will do is give 'Theoretical Tactics', which I don't entirely believe in.

[Arcanoi]

The Tzeentch Weapon doubles as a ranged weapon, and the Slaaneshi weapon inflicts instant death to anything it wounds, but they have the same basic wound template in melee.

[Timberwolf]

As far as that goes, keep in mind that only a Sergeant can take a Powerfist or Melta Bombs. And he can only use one at a time. So, I like Power Weapon + Melta Bombs (comes out at less points too) in that case. Probably don't even waste your time if you're packing as many meltaguns and Multi Meltas as you are.

I have to wonder though, if all that Melta-ing goodness isn't taking inspiration from someone else's list...
If you have the money to spare, or a lot of magnets, make sure you can turn those Multi-Meltas and Meltaguns into Heavy Bolters and Plasmaguns when you need to. You'll thank me later. Plasma weapons work on Avatars.

Thanks for taking a look and for the advice, I shall see what Santa brings me this year.

Believe it or not, I only realised just how much melta weaponry I'm packing (even the Dreadnought has one...) after the fact. I used to live in terror of being stuck with trying to kill a tank without any sort of equipment to deal with it (this explains much about the tac squad config in my first list) so I tend to make sure that everyone can at least have a go at dealing with them. It's irrational terror, I know, but it won't go away. Also, I only just realised this, Melta is about the only serious anti tank weapon that most of my choices can carry...

[Cheesegear]

It's irrational terror, I know, but it won't go away. Also, I only just realised this, Melta is about the only serious anti tank weapon that most of my choices can carry...

Well, I did originally suggest a tri-Lascannon Predator. And then Devastators with four Missile Launchers (kills hordes and vehicles) instead of the Predator in the first place.
In a pinch, Plasmaguns can get their AP all the way up to 13. But, are less reliable than Meltaguns.

Melta weapons are about the only serious anti-tank weapon in the entire game (Strength 10 Ordnance weapons don't count). Lascannons, the traditional anti-tank weapon still needs a 5 to even Glance a Land Raider.
The only things almost as good as Meltas are Lance weapons. Which are slightly better because Lance weapons work against the Monolith whereas Melta weapons do not...Something to think about. The Eldar are good like that, whatever they hit, they wound it on a 4+.

[Maximum Zersk]

'ello, there. I'm considering to start playing Warhammer 40k, but I don't know how to start. Should I get the Rulebook and some minis?

[One Step Two]

'ello, there. I'm considering to start playing Warhammer 40k, but I don't know how to start. Should I get the Rulebook and some minis?

Always awesome to see more and more interested peoples in this wonderful hobby. The best starting point for a new army is the very first post by Cheesegear on how good armies are for starter players.

The best peice of advice is always to head to your nearest Games Workshop store, or friends who may play the game, and ask for a game. GW stores are often pretty cool and are more than happy to let you try out the store armies to get a feel for the game.

[Cheesegear]

Should I get the Rulebook and some minis?

Rulebook; Maybe. Depends if you're getting Assault on Black Reach or not. Since it comes with it's own rulebook. However, I hate AoBR with a passion and I prefer my hardcover Big Black Book (Otherwise known as the BBB) because it comes with everything that the AoBR book does. Except in a much larger easier-to-read font and has more. Did I mention that the BBB is hardcover and doesn't fall apart like the AoBR book does. And can also be used to beat annoying people over the head. An added bonus not really factored in by most people.

The BBB also comes with a handy run-down on all 40K armies (something that the AoBR book really lacks) which may or may not be useful.

If you're getting into the hobby because of a friend with an established army, and he's now just convinced you that 40K is awesome, you may not need a rulebook at all since they might already have one.

Minis; No. ...It's like you didn't even read the OP for this thread...

The best starting point for a new army is the very first post by Cheesegear on how good armies are for starter players.

The best peice of advice is always to head to your nearest Games Workshop store, or friends who may play the game, and ask for a game. GW stores are often pretty cool and are more than happy to let you try out the store armies to get a feel for the game.

This is in the General Advice portion of the OP.

[Maximum Zersk]

Always awesome to see more and more interested peoples in this wonderful hobby. The best starting point for a new army is the very first post by Cheesegear on how good armies are for starter players.

The best peice of advice is always to head to your nearest Games Workshop store, or friends who may play the game, and ask for a game. GW stores are often pretty cool and are more than happy to let you try out the store armies to get a feel for the game.

Problem is I don't live near a GW, nor do any of my friends play.

Minis; No. ...It's like you didn't even read the OP for this thread...

*Facepalms*

Sorry, went braindead. Though I did read the OP. Sorry 'bout that.

[Cheesegear]

Problem is I don't live near a GW, nor do any of my friends play.

Yeah...That's a problem. As much as I hate to say it, if the above is true, about the only thing you might get out of GW and it's products is the hobbying side of the company.

Unless there's a gaming club or hobby-store-with-gaming-tables that also manages to sell GW products nearby. Maybe GW and it's products just aren't for you...

Unless you're one of those people who likes spending hundreds of dollars on a chess set, and then playing chess against yourself. Are you one of those people? Are you?

[Lycan 01]

I know this is random, but I've got the Tau Codex on loan indefinitely from a friend... So if you have any questions about it, Cheesegear, I can look stuff up for you. Its the least I can do after all the help you've given me.


So I looked through the new Tyranid units on the GW website earlier. They look pretty... But I think I'll stick to my Orks for awhile, or at least until I get up to around 1500 points...


Btw, guys, I'm having some trouble deciding on my Christmas purchases...

I myself am getting the Ork Codex. I'm probably going to give my Tactical Command PSP game to my Space Marine buddy. But I want to get my little bro something for his Chaos Marine army...

Soooo... I've got three options.

Option 1: Codex. Extremely important, I know. But my little bro says he doesn't want it... Since he can look up the stats and stuff in the rulebook, he's kinda "meh" in regards to getting the Codex. But since its only 22 or so dollars, I could probably afford it easily. And I'd get some entertainment out of it, at least.

Option 2: A unit of some sort. Preferably in the 20-30 dollar range. I'm thinking either another Chaos Marine Tactical Squad, or a unit of Possessed Chaos Marines. I personally think the Possessed Chaos Marines would be a good investment, since they seem to be good units and they come with a ton of bits. Plus, they're only around 25 bucks...

Option 3: Assault on Black Reach. 70 bucks, if I recall correctly. Thats out of my price range, but I figure if I can get a few friends to pitch in as well, my parents will cover the rest. And its a pretty good deal for both of us. I get to double the size of my army, and my little bro's army nearly triples in size and effectiveness. He'll go from just 16 marines to having 25 (giving Sarge to SM friend), 5 Termies, and a Dreadnaught. And best of all, we'd all have armies around the 750 point range.



So... What do you guys think? I'd like to get him the AoBR kit, but if that isn't a viable option, I'll just get him the Codex and a 3-man CSM box.

I also found out a friend of mine has an Ebay account, and I found 5 Chaos Marine backpacks for 2 bucks. So that'd be a nice thing to have in case I do get the AoBR kit...

[Maximum Zersk]

Yeah...That's a problem. As much as I hate to say it, if the above is true, about the only thing you might get out of GW and it's products is the hobbying side of the company.

Unless there's a gaming club or hobby-store-with-gaming-tables that also manages to sell GW products nearby. Maybe GW and it's products just aren't for you...

Unless you're one of those people who likes spending hundreds of dollars on a chess set, and then playing chess against yourself. Are you one of those people? Are you?

There IS a hobby shop here that sells a whole bunch of RPGs (It has a whole section focused on Warhammer 40k)

I think it does have some Gaming tables. I'll have to go check, though.

And no, I would not spend a hundred dollars on a chess set just to play with myself.

[Cheesegear]

I know this is random, but I've got the Tau Codex on loan indefinitely from a friend... So if you have any questions about it, Cheesegear, I can look stuff up for you. Its the least I can do after all the help you've given me.

What are they good at? What do they suck at? Are they really as bad in close combat as people say they are? Since most of their range is plastic, how many points are they? What is their currency-to-points ratio? High (like Imperial Guard)? Low (Like Necrons, or the extreme Grey Knights)?

They have decent guns, but what's their Ballistic Skill? What's their Toughness? Armour Save? Will a stiff breeze kill them all? How do they fare against Marines and equivalent armies who have 3+ armour saves and AP 5 weapons (Sisters and Necrons)?

How easy is it to build an army? Do I have to have Kroot or Vespids to be effective? Can I get a decent list in 500-750 (learner/newbie territory) games? In this vein, is it true I must have a Battlesuit as my HQ (or is it just that Ethereals suck)? How many points is that? Can I still have an HQ and get a decent Troop allowance?

Are Hammerheads as f*-awesome as people say they are? What are Crisis Suits like to use? I've heard their wargear options are confusing and easy to 'go crazy' and spend all my points on. They have the ability to Deep Strike, right? Do Tau have Teleport Homers or something? I've heard Crisis Suits are awesome and what's the point in Deep Striking if they're just going to die?

Like I said, I have so many questions, it might be better for someone else to actually do an entire write-up.

So I looked through the new Tyranid units on the GW website earlier. They look pretty.

For this reason alone, they'll be the flavour of the month army for quite some time (since I don't know what the next one is). I might hold off on breaking out my 'Nids again. Or, I'll be forced to go about it 'with a difference' to not look like a wool-producing mammal. Like a Warrior Hive.

(I bet you're all wondering just how many armies do I have? Well, lets just say I feel qualified to give advice on every single army available except for Chaos Marines and Tau...)

Codex. Extremely important, I know. But my little bro says he doesn't want it... Since he can look up the stats and stuff in the rulebook, he's kinda "meh" in regards to getting the Codex.

Here's some more advice for you Lycan 01, but first, is your little brother drunk?
Chaos Marines have loads of cool and awesome toys only found in the Codex. He'll find in three seconds flat that his Chaos Lord now rocks the house with added toys like daemon weapons. His Chaos Marine Troop choices gain the ability to have Veteran skills (like Infiltrate, the best one).

It also really helps knowing the points cost and legality of things. Like knowing that Lightning Claws on Aspiring Champions are illegal. The guy on the box has a Power Fist.

The Chaos army improves by leaps and bounds (LEAPS AND BOUNDS) with the addition of a Codex, rather than just the set of numbers found in the rulebook.

A unit of some sort. Preferably in the 20-30 dollar range. I'm thinking either another Chaos Marine Tactical Squad, or a unit of Possessed Chaos Marines.

If you're not getting the Codex (), this might be best. The best idea is trying to get as close to the Battleforce as you can get his army.
15 Marines, 5 Possessed/Chosen, Rhino, The Beserkers you can trade out for a unit of your choice. Though 'Zerkers are pretty good.
Add a Lord or Sorcerer, and that's a legal and somewhat effective army.

If you had the Codex, you could get those 5 'spare' Marines (from the 15), give them Bolt Pistols and CCWs and give them Infiltrate and/or Furious Charge...But, your brother wouldn't know he could do that since he doesn't have the Codex...

Does he know that under the Counts As rule he can use pretty much anything he wants as Lesser and Greater Daemons...But, first he'd have to know about the Summoning rule (only in the Codex).
Personal favourite (aside from actual daemons) is take Guardsmen, remove all their lasguns and ranged weaopns (to represent BS 0) and coat them in sharp bits. You have 'useless' Guardsmen hanging around, right?

Assault on Black Reach...Its a pretty good deal for both of us.

Especially you. Since you're the one getting the Orks. Although I do question the reasoning behind having 6 Deffkoptas... I am wrong. This is awesome.

[MountainKing]

First, Sisters don't have access to 'Heavy Support' Land Raiders. Land Raiders are only available in Witch Hunters as a Dedicated Transport option for Inquisitors. So, there's always that particular problem of being forced to take an Inquisitor if you want a Land Raider.

Penitent Engines are pretty bad, especially since you're also forced to take a Priest in the army as well. Sometimes it's just not worth it. Are you using three PEs? That makes them pretty hard. PEs are like Killa Kans, by themselves, they suck pretty badly. Three of them, makes them deadly.
Priests only belong in Sisters Repentia squads. So, I hope you're doing that.

...Puritan Sisters players also like taking twin Exorcists instead of three PEs. The points cost is nearly the same too. Most Sisters armies are actually light on anti-vehicle (that's where double Exorcists come in). So...You're not alone there.

Actually, I already took both the Inquisitor Lord *and* an Inquisitor; they're leading my Battle Sisters squads. The idea being that, I knew my buddy has this black, evil soft spot for using a psyker to ruin my day... so I thought I'd bring a couple of my own and ruin his.

Also, yes, the Priest is with the Sisters Repentia. I actually ended up taking them to justify having the Priest, which I took because I wanted the PEs... of which, I took six, because I thought it'd be awesome.

For that price, I could get the twin Exorcists AND the Land Raider... and I really, *really* should've brought at least the Land Raider.

Regret, is a heady wine indeed.

[Quayleman]

On Tau:

i don't play them, but I have played against them often.

Tau are good at: Shooting, shooting, and more shooting. Tau base troops only come with BS3, but all of their guns are powerful.

Fire warriors come with S5 rapid fire guns. Particularly effective with "fish of fury" or putting fire warriors in devilfish, driving up to squads you want dead, getting out, and lighting them up. Also has 4+ save.

Crisis suits are strong but easy to get carried away with. These are mobile and can pack two ranged weapons per suit. Weapons include plasma, flamer, burst cannon. Upgrades can allow each suit to target different squads, or each suit to target its guns at two different squads. Drone controllers can add durability to the squad, but get expensive quick. Your HQ will go with these guys.

Vespids are MEQ killers. fast and AP3 guns. 'nuff said.

Kroot come in three flavors. Carnivores (or the 'normal' ones) are cheap melee troops. Fleet and some special rule involving cover or camo that I don't recall. Hounds are cavalry and fleetwith lots of attacks, also cheap. Oxes are... meh. Big guy, decent toughness, YMMV.

Hammerheads are every bit as awesome as you may have heard. heavy armor for a skimmer, and S10 AP1 cannon shots. Has other fire modes with less S/more shots/bigger template? (don't recall. possibly one S5 big blast, possibly several S5 shots)

Honorable mention for Stealth Suits Burst cannons are S5 assult 3, and these guys are good for ambushes.

Tau are bad at: close combat. Really. Worse off than guard because you can't overwhelm enemies in combat by throwing bodies at them. And no melee focused special characters. Ethereals give a very minor boost to your armies leadership, cost far too many points, and are a huge liability if they get killed (I have never played against one. Think nearby units take a panic test or something)

Broadsides may look shiny, but they cost lots, and have one S10 AP1 twin linked shot each (at insanely long range, though). they have two wounds and a 2+ save, but are generally not worth their points. Tau have other ways to pop armor, like Hammerheads.


In general most everything is plastic, and comes at a favorable $$ to points ratio. The army seems to function fairly well even at low point battles.


On tactics:
Most poor tau armies I have seen tend to make a line of fire warriors, pathfinders, and broadsides, and use crisis suits to bring additional firepower where needed and kroot held back to countercharge when the enemy invariably gets into melee. The problem with this is that you will never manage to take and hold objectives. try to stay mobile.

Crisis suits and vespids are already fairly quick. Use fire warriors in devilfish and make the most of your mobility. Kroot are best used proactively. Position them in places where your opponent can't just ignore them. If they get wiped out because they were about to charge out of that forest into enemy ranged troops then they did their job.

Things I have not seen used and can't comment on: pirranah, sniper pathfinders

[MountainKing]

Crisis suits are strong but easy to get carried away with. These are mobile and can pack two ranged weapons per suit. Weapons include plasma, flamer, burst cannon. Upgrades can allow each suit to target different squads, or each suit to target its guns at two different squads. Drone controllers can add durability to the squad, but get expensive quick. Your HQ will go with these guys.

Tau are bad at: close combat. Really. Worse off than guard because you can't overwhelm enemies in combat by throwing bodies at them. And no melee focused special characters. Ethereals give a very minor boost to your armies leadership, cost far too many points, and are a huge liability if they get killed (I have never played against one. Think nearby units take a panic test or something)

Emphasis on things I disagree on.

Crisis Suits can take up to three weapons OR support systems. Meaning, you can take a gun on each arm and a shoulder weapon system, or one gun and two support systems. You canNOT have three of the same weapon, and twin-linked weapons count as two.

However, I totally agree, it is really, really easy to go overboard on your Crisis Suits.

Compared to a Shas'O or some special ICs, Ethereals are cheap, and with the fairly high leadership on your troops (Fire Warriors with a Shas'Ui have 8), losing your Ethereal can actually be one Hell of a boost. Favored Enemy ability against the army that killed the Ethereal? Tasty. (If you want to giggle a lot, and Aun'Va is your Ethereal, all Tau units also gain Furious Charge in addition to Favored Enemy.)

Then, there's Commander Farsight, who packs a WS of 5 and a melee weapon that allows no armor saves and rolls 2d6+5 when penetrating vehicles. Also, he has 4 attacks and I5. Plus some other amusing stuff.

[Maximum Zersk]

Well, forgive me if I say say something stupid.

So, looking at everything available, if I started playing, would a good start be the Rulebook, and a Battleforce? (For me, I think a good starting point would be SMs.)

[Shas aia Toriia]

For guns, the Hammerhead can take either the 60" Str 7 AP 3, heavy 3 Ion Cannon
or the Railgun, which has two types of shots; solid shot and submunition. Both have 72" range.
Solid - Str 10, AP 1
Submunition - Str 6, AP 4, large blast.

[MountainKing]

Well, forgive me if I say say something stupid.

So, looking at everything available, if I started playing, would a good start be the Rulebook, and a Battleforce? (For me, I think a good starting point would be SMs.)

While it's been contested, I have to say that, given that's what Cheesegear suggested (and given his allusion to owning many, many armies worth of models), I'd have to say that that's probably a decent idea.

[Cheesegear]

So, looking at everything available, if I started playing, would a good start be the Rulebook, and a Battleforce? (For me, I think a good starting point would be SMs.)

That would be a good start. AoBR is pretty nice, don't get me wrong. But, it's really only for learners. If you have a way to learn the game without AoBR, then, by all means go for it. Especially if you don't want Space Marines or Orks.

Battleforces are always a good start. The only Battleforces I don't like are the Eldar and the Imperial Guard one/s. The Eldar because it just isn't enough, and the Imperial Guard one/s because they give the illusion of a complete army, but it isn't. Made especially worse when you remember that rather than a Sentinel, you used to get a Leman Russ in the box.

The 'best' Battleforce is the Tyranids because it comes with a 'complete set'. And, extra good news is that it doesn't look like it's changing come January.
Or, at least, the 'New Releases' page for Tyranids still show the current Battleforce layout. Potentially indicated that nothing is changing. We can dream...
The other one I like the look of, is the Tau Battleforce. Since it looks like a 'complete set' (HQ and two Troops plus extras). However, I'm not entirely licensed to comment on anything Tau-related since I don't own the Codex and I don't really know how good the BF actually is.

From the SM Battleforce, you need a Codex and a Marine Commander. In fact, using Battleforce pieces, you can actually make a pretty good Commander (at least to begin with). Since the Assault Squad portion of the Battleforce comes with two extra Power Weapons and a Fist, and the Tactical Marine 'upgrades' sprue has a lot of extra pieces that can be used.
All you need is a extra set of legs. That's where GW gets you.

However, compared to the rest of GW, the (plastic) Space Marine Commander Box is a pretty sweet deal and comes with a whole crapload of extra bits that you can slap on your sergeants and veteran Marines.

I know more than a few people who have never, in their life, bought a rulebook. Most people should have one. Very rarely does a battle happen where both opponents are lazy and neither have a rulebook. Still, it's best to get a rulebook at some point.

While it's been contested, I have to say that, given that's what Cheesegear suggested...

Don't take my word for it. I just don't believe that AoBR is a good buy, tactically speaking. Ten Marines, 5 Terminators, a Dreadnought and a Captain is not a good start to an army.

If my army was already twenty Marines, ten Scouts and ten Assault Marines and a Rhino (basically the Battleforce with rounded out squads, a good 'Core' army) and I wanted to get another set of support troops.
And I thought to myself;
"Hey, I want a Dreadnought for some armour busting. Maybe some Terminators to soak heavy fire from my other Infantry, and, while I'm at it, now that I'm playing in larger points, I could do with another Troops unit. And, while I'm at it, I could use a decent Captain model, instead of this glorified converted-up Sergeant model..."

Then sure. AoBR is a cheap 'Booster Pack' of 4-500 points, no worries. It's just not a good starting army, which is what it's meant to be. Maybe if you had two...20 Marines, 2 Dreads, 10 Terminators...Actually no. That's just a bad idea multiplied by two. Two wrongs don't make a right.

20 Orks, 3 Deff Koptas, Warboss and 5 Nobs, however, is a totally sweet starting point. Double AoBR...40 Orks, 6 Deff Koptas and 10 Nobs (maybe convert the other Warboss into a Big Mek?). It only gets better. However, more than two might be overdoing it. Made totally sweet because the Warboss makes Nobz Troops.
(Did you know that Lycan 01? Not having a Codex and all...)

[Maximum Zersk]

Well, If I can get my friend playing, I'll go with AoBR. If not, I'll go with the Battleforce.

AoBR certainly is cheaper than getting Battleforce and other needed stuff. Of course, that could just be my cultural stereotype speaking up. I know not to go for the cheapest deal all the time.

The reasoning behind AoBR or not is, I think my friend likes orcs (or, in 40ks case, Orks), so that might get him to start playing 40k also.

Thanks for the help.

[One Step Two]

At the moment I am slowly slipping in and out of the coma that is my job, and am musing over my Eldar army list. The point's cost's aren't exact, I'm just going off the top of my head, but I need more opinions on tactics.

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HQ
Farseer on Jetbike with S. Spear
Rune of warding, spirit stone. Doom, Fortune
3x Warlocks, Bike and Spear.
Destructor, Embolden, Enhance.

350 pts

Autarch on Jetbike
Melta Gun, Laser lance, Banshee mask

140 pts


Troops

2x 9 Guardian Jetbikes w/ 3 Shurken cannons

456 (228pts ea)

2x 5 Eldar Pathfinders

240 (120pts ea)

Fast attack

5 Shining Spears w/ Exarch, all upgrades

225 pts

Heavy Support

2x Fire Prism w/ Shirken Cannon

250 (125pts ea)

The Total of what I have above sits at 1661, and represents the bulk of the force I like to put down on the table, I usually like a field a unit of Banshees in a waveserpent, or Dark Reapers, subbing out the second unit of Pathfinders for either one in a 1750 point match.

But my usual engagement plan is to drop the pathfinders ontop of objectives or in heavy cover to soak up alot of hate (they've earned it, they really have :D), while using my jetbike guardians to act as main engagement forces, using the Farseer and his squad to harass vehicles (Woo S9 shots), and the Autarch is used with the Shining Spears to break open any meleers my bikes happen to get rushed by.

The fire prisms usually work in pair almost exclusively, I hide one behind terrain and use the other to rain down that lovely Twin-linked S5 AP3 large blast template on MEQ's, or opt to open up and use both on horde armies to clear some nice holes in enemy lines. To date their most wellknown kill was wiping out Belal and his entire Deathwing squad retinue after they deepstriked the turn prior with the S9 focused blast.

So as mentioned above, comments, opinions critque at all anyone?

[Cheesegear]

The Total of what I have above sits at 1661, and represents the bulk of the force I like to put down on the table, I usually like a field a unit of Banshees in a waveserpent, or Dark Reapers, subbing out the second unit of Pathfinders for either one in a 1750 point match.

In such large games, the lack of Fire Dragons in your list is pretty significant.

But my usual engagement plan is to drop the pathfinders ontop of objectives or in heavy cover to soak up alot of hate (they've earned it, they really have :D), while using my jetbike guardians to act as main engagement forces, using the Farseer and his squad to harass vehicles (Woo S9 shots), and the Autarch is used with the Shining Spears to break open any meleers my bikes happen to get rushed by.

I'm not exactly thrilled by your choice in Autarch. But, that's me. If it were me, I'd drop Withdraw from your Shining Spears. I've never seen the point of Hit & Run, since it just means in my enemy's turn they can shoot/assault me at their leisure.
If you drop Withdraw, you have enough points to turn your Autarch into an Avatar. Or another Farseer. I don't think I've ever seen anyone go wrong with two Farseers.

I am however, a big, giant, enormous fan of fast armies. An Eldar Jetbike army is Toughness 4, with 3+ saves. And fast. I like it. As an oppoent, I hate Eldar Jetbikes so much...Maybe I should invest in some? Probably. But, I've got too many things on my plate as it is. Maybe later...

[DaedalusMkV]

Nobody who knows what they're doing plays Math-Hammer. Ask any Ork player. Your Ballistic Skill may be an almighty 2, but, that doesn't mean you can't hit 12 times on 15 dice - when the Math says that's actually how much they should miss. Just because a Marine's ballistic skill is 3, doesn't mean they can't hit twice out of 10 dice (even though their Bolters are Twin-Linked Am I bitter, not at all).

As soon as dice hit the table, Math-Hammer ceases to work.

As I understand it, all the Daemon Weapons also do different things - like being ranged weapons and the like. They're just not really comparable.

Nobody plays math-hammer, it's just a tool to use when comparing things during list-building. It's useful to know how well you can expect something to do, even though it won't turn out exactly like that on the tabletop. Using mathhammer, I can say as a matter of fact that lascannons suck at destroying Land Raiders. I don't care if you have done it, only one hit in 18 is going to cause meaningful damage (immobilized or destroyed). Ergo, suck. Meltaguns, on the other hand, are far better at the job, causing meaningful damage with about 50% of hits. Are Meltaguns better weapons than Lascannons? Yes, but Mathhammer won't tell you that. It will, however, tell you that Meltaguns are far, far better than lascannons at destroying armour 14, and that you should probably try to fit a few in your army. That's what it's for; comparing some things doing the same thing and seeing what is best at it. In the case of Daemon weapons, since Khorne, Nurgle and Undivided are all used for exactly the same thing, and Slaanesh is going to end up doing that far more often than not, Mathhammer is a perfectly valid method of comparison. Same goes for, say, comparing Multilasers to Autocannons, but not Multilasers to Meltaguns.

Eh, I realize this post isn't going to convince anyone. Neither side can ever really understand how the other one thinks, so can we just agree to disagree about the maths, rather than accusing each other of being idiots who have no idea what they're doing? I have a great deal of success with my methods, and I'm sure you do with yours. It's not like there's only one way to look at the game.

[Winterwind]

Mine usually goes in with 5 Terminators (1 Reaper Autocannon, 1 Lightning Claw [on Terminator Champion], 2 combi-meltas) and an Icon of Nurgle. For shooting, the Icon of Nurgle gives its bonus to the Lord (you use the majority Toughness of the unit) and the firepower means that, even though they can't assault (unless you're playing Planetstrike), they can Deep Strike close to a tank or bunker and pop it.

Mmmm. Alright, I'll keep that in mind, thank you.

At 1000 points, you probably don't have enough on the field to be able to hold anything back. Pretty much every time I've tried Deep Strike at that level has ended poorly.

Alright. I shall heed this lesson, then.

Option 1: Codex. Extremely important, I know. But my little bro says he doesn't want it... Since he can look up the stats and stuff in the rulebook, he's kinda "meh" in regards to getting the Codex. But since its only 22 or so dollars, I could probably afford it easily. And I'd get some entertainment out of it, at least.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - in my opinion an army is unplayable without a codex. That's not to say you should definitely get him a codex if he wouldn't be happy with it, but he is really, really wrong (and I think that once he'd have a codex, he might realize his mistake, too).

Option 2: A unit of some sort. Preferably in the 20-30 dollar range. I'm thinking either another Chaos Marine Tactical Squad, or a unit of Possessed Chaos Marines. I personally think the Possessed Chaos Marines would be a good investment, since they seem to be good units and they come with a ton of bits. Plus, they're only around 25 bucks...

Mmmm... mind that I'm far from being an experienced player, but the opinions of other players I've read about Possessed Chaos Marines on other forums were rather non-enthusiastic. They are good melee units, for sure, but they have such severe competition from Khornate Berzerkers (who are cheaper points-wise and are a Troops choice, while the Possessed ones won't even be better, unless they get a lucky roll). They look like they'd be quite fun to use, but as far as efficiency-for-points is concerned, I don't think they are all that good.
The bits are awesome though, for sure.
Didn't you mention your brother was going for a Khornate army? In that case, why not just get him Berzerkers?

Here's some more advice for you Lycan 01, but first, is your little brother drunk?
Chaos Marines have loads of cool and awesome toys only found in the Codex. He'll find in three seconds flat that his Chaos Lord now rocks the house with added toys like daemon weapons. His Chaos Marine Troop choices gain the ability to have Veteran skills (like Infiltrate, the best one).

That was 3rd edition. Chaos troops do not have Veteran skills anymore. They still can have Infiltrate, but that's by being Chosen (which turns them into Elite choices and makes them more expensive anyhow).

Likewise the overwhelming magnitude of options you mentioned in the opening post was present in the 3rd edition; in the current codex, the amount of options available to Chaos is pretty much on the same level as that of the other races.

The advantage that Chaos got to make up for that is that Marks can be given out quite freely and cult troops can all be taken as Troop choices in whichever combination one desires to now. Which, in combination with the fact all Chaos Marines (except Berzerkers and Rubric Marines) have bolters, boltpistols and close-combat-weapons, means that I disagree with at least one further part of your OP - a Chaos Space Marine army is pretty much always going to be better in melee than a loyalist Space Marine army.

[hamishspence]

I occasionally do mathhammer as a way of seeing if a weapon is much better at, say, killing terminators, than a lascannon is.

For example- the gatling cannon on a Leman Russ Punisher tends to be as good as multiple lascannons- primarily because the high rate of fire (and the invulnerable save (5+) of terminators) makes up for the low Str.

Based on a BS3 gunner, to get an average of 10 dead terminators, you need 36 lascannon shots (36 shots, 18 hits, 15 wounds, 10 failed invulnerable saves.

For the same gunner, to get an average with the Punisher Cannon, you need 180 cannon shots (180 shots, 90 hits, 60 wounds, 10 failed armour saves.)

However, since the punisher cannon puts out 20 shots, and the lascannon 1,

9 punisher cannons = 36 lascannons

Or 1 punisher cannon equals 4 lascannons.

Note that this ignores range, and versatility. Still, it does suggest that the gun can be an adequate Elite-killer as well as horde-killer.

[One Step Two]

In such large games, the lack of Fire Dragons in your list is pretty significant.

It does seem lacking, but to be honest tank busting doesnt present an issue with my list to any great degree, with the guardian bikes using their shuriken canons to drop 9 S6 shots into the rear armour of lighter tanks thanks to their high movement, and the 4 S9 singing spears being off-loaded from the Farseer and his squad I can lay down some serious tank busting as needed, but that said I did plan on getting eldar missile launchers mounted on vypers to lay down some more supportive fire.

I'm not exactly thrilled by your choice in Autarch. But, that's me. If it were me, I'd drop Withdraw from your Shining Spears. I've never seen the point of Hit & Run, since it just means in my enemy's turn they can shoot/assault me at their leisure.
If you drop Withdraw, you have enough points to turn your Autarch into an Avatar. Or another Farseer. I don't think I've ever seen anyone go wrong with two Farseers.

Withdraw has served me very nicely in the past, the real trick is using it to dis-engage enemies at the end of their assault phase, so you can set them up for a deadly counter attack on your turn. As I mentioned I use it to break up combat from time to time, but with the added bonus of being able to tie up some enemy units for a turn can be vital as well, giving them a boost with fortune and their 3+ armour makes them hard to move, Withdraw to give them a nice one-two punch, or move on and let the guardians sweep them up under massed shuriken fire.

But the idea of removing the Autarch for an Avatar is tempting, very much so.

I am however, a big, giant, enormous fan of fast armies. An Eldar Jetbike army is Toughness 4, with 3+ saves. And fast. I like it. As an oppoent, I hate Eldar Jetbikes so much...Maybe I should invest in some? Probably. But, I've got too many things on my plate as it is. Maybe later...

That's what drew me to them, I wanted a fast army bikes and all, but I had my fill of marines, and the Ork Speed Freeks weren't for me, after seeing the new Eldar codex when it came out, coupled with the Windrider Host Apocalyse set (which I got two of giving me 20 bikes from the onset) was awesome incentive, and while thusfar I haven't gotten nearly enough converting done, there are some awesome ideas for how to make yourself a pretty looking Farseer on jetbike which I intend to emulate.

[dsmiles]

Hate to interrupt but...
OOOOOOOOHHHHH.....NEW PLASTIC 'NIDS!!!!!!!!!

[Wraith]

In such large games, the lack of Fire Dragons in your list is pretty significant.

Agreed. The Fire Prisms are usually good for killing other tanks, but only if they aren't already dead themselves - a 'Plan B' unit (especially one that can also take out heavily armoured Squads like Terminators and the like) is going to be a good idea.

I would also question the Warlock Bodyguard taking just 1 Destructor. I've used that power in the past, and I can safely say that More Is Better. Just having one rarely achieves anything, and you might be better served by instead giving him a back-up Enhance to make your inevitable casualties less threatening.

I'm not exactly thrilled by your choice in Autarch. But, that's me. If it were me, I'd drop Withdraw from your Shining Spears. I've never seen the point of Hit & Run, since it just means in my enemy's turn they can shoot/assault me at their leisure.

There are 2 fun parts to Hit & Run that make it worthwhile: the first is that it's optional, and the second is that you can do it in your opponents' turn. That means you can shoot and charge in your turn, sit around and hold up your enemy in their turn, and then disengage ready to start all over again in your next turn.

First, Sisters don't have access to 'Heavy Support' Land Raiders. Land Raiders are only available in Witch Hunters as a Dedicated Transport option for Inquisitors. So, there's always that particular problem of being forced to take an Inquisitor if you want a Land Raider.

We've been around this conversation before, I think There is nothing wrong with this desire that "Allied Daemonhunters" wouldn't fix, as they DO have access to Heavy Support Land Raiders and they look just as awesome and ornate as the Witch Hunters.

Not that I advocate taking just 1 Allied Unit in order to abuse a really powerful and versatile model.... But if I don't see it happen then I can't really complain about it....

[hamishspence]

Hate to interrupt but...
OOOOOOOOHHHHH.....NEW PLASTIC 'NIDS!!!!!!!!!

yes- I looked, and I liked.

I'm wondering how the Mawloc will work out- will it have a Swallow Whole ability drawn directly from the Red Terror, or be something slightly different?