Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Having said that it is a really hard decision TS or AG - probably to hardest decision in the codex. Hmm - if you can give my examples of Toxin sacs being more effective against bread and butter units (scoring or transports) i'll definitely go with them.

You can have both but on seperate units.

The best way to know if something's good or not is to try it out and see how it works for you. There's no need to worry about having the best list before you start playing and getting a perfect win record.

The zoanthropes are really good IMO.

Zoanthropes are excellent, but one unit can't do everything for you, especially not against a mechanized army.

The downside of the Tervigone is the 3d6 dead Termagaunts when he dies - this is why my Tervigone is nowhere near the gaunts - any enemy I play will just switch targets to him and kill him quicker than they would kill the gaunts while also, as a nice side effect, halving my gaunt squads :(

Catalyst is range 12, so you can't really keep him away from the termagaunts.

That 3d6 dead gaunts is nothing when he's already made 6d6 gaunts.

I think Tervigons are overated and should only be used in conjuction with non-termagaunt broods (which removes the point of them)

Over-rated? A unit that's existed for half a month and hardly anyone has converted yet is over-rated already?

[slimy_te_t_cles]

All of these have I4 so without adrenal sacs I am striking simultaneously :(
Plaguemarines though O.o didn't think of them but aren't they immune to poison (really should be - father nurgle and all that)
Bikers - very very good point as they'll get the charge- how many bikers are there driving around atm?
I will change one 30 strong unit of termagaunts to toxin sacs - against unsuitable opponents they can be my bait and against the suitable units mentioned they can have some fun

Thankyou very much for your insight - slowly removing most of the weaknesses of the swarm.
Anymore gems from anyone - i'm especially interested about the rending combat as I tried to do it but lost the Nids main advantage while doing so (ridonkculous nummbers of troops) - what do you reckon I should drop and for what?

Maybe 2 thropes for 3 shrikes or raveners (the rending does need to be flying or beasts to get to all those annoying transports)??

The only problem with that is the raveners go splat really easily whereas to take on the thropes you have to hose them down with fire that should really be directed against gaunts

also ninja'd


The tervigon is the unit everyone's been raving/complaining about on various WH40K forums so that's where the comment came from

Oh, and if you keep trying to spawn gaunts, you run out pretty soon whereas if you keep them for the late game objective grab..... (also when playing killpoints)

[Cheesegear]

So, who wants to point out if/where I'm wrong?

Chaos Space Marines (Cults):

Spoiler

Show

World Eaters/Khorne-based/Beserkers:
Contributions supplied unknowingly by Myatar Panwar
Lots of attacks...Aaand...That's about it. Khorne Beserkers have WS 5 and also gain Furious Charge, meaning that when Assaulting, they're hitting and wounding most things on 3s and 2/3s. Their initiative 5 (when Assaulting) helps them a lot when they can strike before most enemies and kill them before they get attacks back. Khorne Beserkers are fairly good at what they do, but, their individual unit effectiveness is directly proportional to their opponent's armour save.
Meaning, that, for the most part, you need lots of Beserkers. Lots. Khorne Beserker armies also don't function very well without Rhinos, as their only ranged weapons are Pistols. So, this is a lot of currency. On top of which; As they lack ranged weapons, Obliterators, Vindicators and Defilers are almost required for the army.
Khorne Lords and Daemon Princes are considered to be the least efficient. The Daemon Weapon gives you double the chance to hurt yourself. As well as +2D6 Power Weapon attacks is pretty much overkill. You don't really need that many.
Their special character - Kharn - is quite good though.
** or ***. You need Rhinos.

Thousand Sons/Tzeentch-based:
All models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain an Invulnerable save. Or, their save gets improved if they already have one. This makes Tzeentch-based lists very tough to kill on the outset.
Onto specialised units; Thousand Sons are a Troop choice that comes with a 4+ invulnerable save, and have AP3 Bolters. Perfect for objective-squatting. This also makes them deadly in ranged firefights - and their invulnerable save makes them hard to kill on the return. Being Slow and Purposeful, it's a good idea to get as much use our their Bolters as you can get.
Thousand Sons also have a Sorcerer as their 'Sergeant'. Chaos Psychic Powers being as they are, this is quite good, as most 'shooting' powers tend to be AP3 or better, or allow no save at all. The Sorcerer also comes with a Force Weapon (add Warptime for fun). Meaning units with an Independent Character kind of need to think twice before Assaulting Thousand Sons units.
Tzeentch Daemon Princes and Sorcerers are quite good, able to choose and use two powers in the same turn. As well as receiving a better Invulnerable save. Tzeentch Lords are 'okay'. The Tzeentch special character - Ahriman - is pretty good. But, far too overpoints'd. ****

Emperor's Children/Slaanesh-based/Noise Marines:
Marks of Slaanesh add to Initiative. This means pretty much everything in the CSM army will be functioning at Initiative 5. If you're unit holds Power Weapons, you can do a lot of damage before your opponent even gets to attack.
Noise Marines. Are. Amazing. Sonic Blasters are essentially Storm Bolters that get an extra shot if you're standing still. A Blastmaster, is a S8, AP3 Blast weapon that causes Pinning. Do you want yet? Just before Assaulting, the Noise Marine Champion has access to a S5, AP3 Flamer. This will kill things dead. Then Assault, at Initiative 5 (if you're opponent didn't fail their Morale check from you shooting the crap out of them, that is) and you can do some serious damage.
Daemon Princes and Sorcerers gain Lash of Submission. Usually considered one of the more unfair psychic powers as it allows you to move your opponent's models. Where? Into Dangerous Terrain, out of their precious cover, towards your own models into Assault range, or even just moving their Heavy Weapon team out of LoS.
Chaos Lords with Blissgiver are perfect Character killers as with 3+D6 attacks and Initiative 6, they only need to cause one wound (with a 'Power Weapon') to kill pretty much anything they want.
Lucius the Eternal is just as good as - if not better than - Kharn. And doesn't even cost that many points.
*** or **** The Noise Marine box doesn't come with with many Sonic Blasters. They are, however, available in bulk from Mail Order. But, they're not that important. You're really only getting Noise Marines for Blastmasters and Doom Sirens.

Death Guard/Nurgle-based/Plague Marines:
Extra Toughness. Might not seem like much. But, it's (usually) the most expensive Mark for units that can take it for a reason. Works best on models in Terminator Armour or models on Bikes.
Plauge Marines are pretty much exactly the same as regular Chaos Marines, except with Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain. They're extremely hard to kill. On top of which, they have Defensive Grenades. And that's pretty good. Aaand...That's about it actually. Not much can be said about Plague Marines except exactly that.
The Mark of Nurgle is mostly wasted on Daemon Princes as they don't really need the extra Toughness compared to what else they could take and Sorcerers on gain access to Nurgle's Rot, which, again, compared to other powers, isn't that great. As Nurgle's Rot works best in close combat. But, Nurgle Sorcerers only get one psychic power per turn. So, it's Nova, or use the Force Weapon.
On Chaos Lords (especially in Terminator Armour), the Mark of Nurgle is alright. Giving access to a reasonably good Daemon Weapon.
The special character for Death Guard is Typhus. He's pretty damn good. Opinion appears to be divided on whether or not he's worth the points. He has Wind of Chaos, and Nurgle's Rot (otherwise known as Nurgle's Nova). And he auto-passes all psychic tests when using those powers. As well as having the Nurgle-based Daemon Weapon, that also counts as a Force Weapon. As well as Terminator Armour and Defensive Grenades. Whether you like him or not is your choice.
** Plague Marines are pretty boring for options. +Toughness can be defeated. And the Mark of Nurgle is usually the most expensive Mark for those who would get any real use out of it.

[Winterwind]

So, who wants to point out if/where I'm wrong?

Mind I have little actual game experience, so all I can say comes from having read the codex many, many times, having thought about CSM army lists a lot, and lots and lots of reading WH40k forums.

Regarding Khorne Berserkers: Nothing to add or correct. One thing I've been wondering about is how a Khorne-marked Chaos Lord with Daemon Weapon and a Juggernaut of Khorne might work - he would get the most out of the bonus Strength point due to the sheer volume of attacks improved thereby, which might perhaps make up for the higher chance to roll a 1...

Regarding Thousand Sons: One thing that should also be noted is that they are the only Chaos Space Marines who lack a close combat weapon/pistol combo, meaning they are far worse in close combat than everything else in the entire codex.

Regarding Noise Marines: Another use for Lash of Submission would be clustering up enemy units more, so that a template weapon hits more of them at once. Which synergizes well with Noise Marines having the best template weapons in the codex...
Also, further points in their favour: There are few other Assault weapons in the codex, so if it's Assault weapons you want, there is pretty much no way around them. Also, they are the only cult troops that are in every regard better than regular Chaos Space Marines (Berserkers lack bolters, Thousand Sons lack close combat weapons and pistols, Plague Marines have worse initiative), and being better in close combat than regular marines thanks to their initiative and having assault weapons provides them with a great synergy between their capabilities.
Points against them: Without their sonic weaponry, they are quite overprized in comparison to regular marines, and with it they become very expensive very quickly, while having no abilities that make them more durable, making them a bit of glass cannons (for marine standards).

Regarding Plague Marines: The one point I'd disagree with; Plague Marines have just the same options as regular Chaos Space Marines (sans heavy weapons, but one wouldn't be using those usually anyway), and just about all players in all forums I've ever seen, in particular those more competition/tournament-minded, seem to actually consider them to be the best of all Chaos Space Marine choices.

[DaedalusMkV]

Alright, I'll add my $0.02 as well.
Khorne: You're pretty much right here, except that the Khorne Daemon Prince is really one of, if not the, best Princes. MoN is overpriced on Princes and offers relatively little benefit and MoS is only useful at all if you want Lash, so Khorne really does fare very well. It's also the cheapest of the upgrades, which certainly doesn't hurt. That said, your rating is a little pessimistic, IMO. Khorne is absolutely fine as mono-god, far better than Tzeentch or Nurgle.

Tzeentch: I actually disagree with a lot of what you said. 4++ is nice, but it means nothing against a lot of the things that kill Marines, and TS are over 150% the cost of a Joe CSM. They also suck in combat, even compared to Loyalists. They're very good against other Space Marines, which makes them decent as a niche unit in an undivided CSM list, but in a list all on their own anything that doesn't rely on MEq armour will school them horribly, as will certain other MEq troops like Plague Marines. And well played mechanised armies, for that matter. There's a reason TS get no play in high-end tournies. Icon of Tzeentch is universally overpriced, and pretty much never worth it. MoT is fine for Sorcs and excellent for Princes though, which does add some redeeming qualities. Their Special Character is a joke, being even more horribly overpointed than regular Sorcerors (Look at Tigurius. Is he better in every way that Ahriman? Sure is. Cheaper? You know it!)

Slaanesh: Take away Lash, and Slaanesh is probably the best balanced of all the God lists. Noise Marines are good, being capable of excellent static shooting or great mobile shooting without sacrificing too much combat ability (like the TS did). They're the most expensive of the Cult troops, but definitely not overpriced. They're the masters of anti-infantry fire, killing just about everything equally well in relation to its points. They're probably the hardest of the cult troops to master, but there's nothing wrong with them as is. Not as competitive as Berzerkers or Plague Marines, but not screwed over by every competitive army in the game like TS. Icons are actually useful, being that they're priced appropriately across the board. Lash is, of course, one of the most broken things in the game, which is why competitive play sees a ton of Slaaneshi Princes, though otherwise the Mark of Slaanesh is only good in very specific circumstances. Their special character is okay, but outperformed for his price by better SCs and generic HQs. Pure Slaanesh is okay, but far more gun-focused than a normal CSM army. It's also going to be extremely low model count, which makes it very fragile.

Nurgle: Nurgle gets a lot of love from Tourney players, for good reason. Plague Marines are amazing at everything, after all. In shooting, they put out the same amount of damage as any other Marines, but are more than twice as survivable against anything short of Plasma weaponry, which means that their defenses are more akin to a MC than infantry. In combat, they tend to win big purely because putting wounds on them without heavily specialized, Power-Weapon equipped elites is nigh impossible. Even some anti-armour specialists (Banshees or WH Crusaders, for example) fail miserably at fighting Plague Marines due to their improved Toughness, while Blight Grenades mean that even if the enemy gets the charge they're still going to lose. In short, the sheer survivability of PMs makes them deadly combatants, while killing a Plague Marine squad that's in cover is nigh impossible. The only downside of them is their reduced I, but as long as you don't do something stupid like let that Space Marine Honour Guard with 6 Relic Blades charge you it won't make a difference. Icons are overpriced badly, so don't use them. Get more Plague Marines and Obliterators. Mark is good for Lords, junk for the other two. Typhus is amazing as long as he doesn't come face-to-face with a Power Fist or Lascannon, which means that he's plenty good in friendly games but tends to fare poorly in high-end play. Altogether, Nurgle has the best stuff in the book but only works well with hard-hitters like Vindicators and Obliterators. On its own Nurgle just doesn't have the damage output to massacre enemies, which is why you usually see it with lots of juicy Obliterators to kill the enemy while the Plague Marines refuse to die.

Anyways, there's a reason that the best Tourney armies around use Lash Princes, Plague Marines and Obliterators, and nothing else.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Hmm, the only thing with more Tervigons is that they kind of suck in combat.

Aren't they T6 W6 monstrous creatures? As an Ork player that freaks me right out.

[Cheesegear]

Mind I have little actual game experience, so all I can say comes from having read the codex many, many times, having thought about CSM army lists a lot, and lots and lots of reading WH40k forums.

Personally, I've only played two or three games with my own Chaos Marines since 4th. My knowledge only comes from a simple reading of the Codex, and my experience against them. Which isn't anything to write home about, since 'around here', they don't appear in too many tournaments. For some reason, folks 'round here don't like Chaos.
I did mention in the OP that I was looking for CSM input.

Regarding Thousand Sons: One thing that should also be noted is that they are the only Chaos Space Marines who lack a close combat weapon/pistol combo, meaning they are far worse in close combat than everything else in the entire codex.

That's not saying much. It means that they're on par with Imperial Tactical Marines. And, that being said, they're still Space Marines with WS/S/T/I 4, 3+ saves and 4+ Invulnerables which means they're still better in Assault than anything else.
But, I will mention that they are the 'worst' Assault Troops in the CSM Codex. Not that that's saying much. Kind of like how Kroot are the 'best' Assault Troops for Tau.

Another use for Lash of Submission would be clustering up enemy units more, so that a template weapon hits more of them at once. Which synergizes well with Noise Marines having the best template weapons in the codex...

Oops. I meant to put that in.

Points against them: Without their sonic weaponry, they are quite overpriced in comparison to regular marines

Noise Marines...'without their Sonic weaponry'...I wasn't even aware that was possible. Still, I'll make a mention of it.

Regarding Plague Marines:
[...] in all forums I've ever seen, in particular those more competition/tournament-minded, seem to actually consider them to be the best of all Chaos Space Marine choices.

Hmm...I guess T5 and FNP does work wonders even if you are I3. However, like I said, nobody 'round my area plays Chaos Marines in tournaments. And, in friendly matches, no-one takes Plague Marines.

Just checking, Plague Marines also come in boxes of 7 for a greater currency cost than Noise Marines or Beserkers, who come in boxes of 8 and 12 respectively. And that just doesn't make any sense.
Grats GW.

I might bump them up to ***.

Alright, I'll add my $0.02 as well.
Khorne: You're pretty much right here, except that the Khorne Daemon Prince is really one of, if not the, best Princes.

He really gets that much out of 1 extra attack? I think the loss on the ability to take Psychic Powers (any Power) far outweighs the benefit. Even an Undivided Prince (painted Red and Brass) with Warptime would be way better? No?

MoS is only useful at all if you want Lash

Like, as in, there are people who don't want Lash?

That said, your rating is a little pessimistic, IMO. Khorne is absolutely fine as mono-god, far better than Tzeentch or Nurgle.

I don't know if you know, but, the rating isn't about what is 'better' or 'worse'. It's about what is easier to use. Khorne - without Rhinos - kind of sucks. And gets **. Khorne - with Rhinos - is fairly good. But, costs more money. And Costs more points. But, doesn't do real well when they don't get to Assault first (which you can't do on the turn you jump out of a Rhino). The fact that Khorne also needs other units from the Codex to work (Obliterators, Defilers or even Vindicators), means they lose another point. Khorne - when done right - is still looking at *** from me.

Tzeentch: [Thousand Sons] also suck in combat, even compared to Loyalists. They're very good against other Space Marines, which makes them decent as a niche unit in an undivided CSM list, but in a list all on their own anything that doesn't rely on MEq armour will school them horribly, as will certain other MEq troops like Plague Marines.

No. 1K Sons don't suck in combat. They're just not as good as the rest of the Codex (they lose one attack, *shrug*). Since they're still Space Marines, that isn't saying much. If the Sorcerer is carting Gift of Chaos twice a turn, it can get quite messy since the Spawn that ensues is under the Chaos player's control. Goodbye Independent Character, goodbye unit Sergeant. etc. Welcome my own Spawn.

Their Special Character is a joke, being even more horribly overpointed than regular Sorcerors

I did already mention that.

Anyways, there's a reason that the best Tourney armies around use Lash Princes, Plague Marines and Obliterators, and nothing else.

Never really having played Chaos Marines in 4th/5th, nor do I particularly want to, and never having played any Chaos Marines in any tournament I've been to since the advent of 4th/5th. So, I've never taken any interest in tournament lists. But, I believe you.

[Winterwind]

Personally, I've only played two or three games with my own Chaos Marines since 4th. My knowledge only comes from a simple reading of the Codex, and my experience against them. Which isn't anything to write home about, since 'around here', they don't appear in too many tournaments. For some reason, folks 'round here don't like Chaos.
I did mention in the OP that I was looking for CSM input.

And I considered giving some right away, but figured I'd better leave that to people with actual gaming experience.

That's not saying much. It means that they're on par with Imperial Tactical Marines. And, that being said, they're still Space Marines with WS/S/T/I 4, 3+ saves and 4+ Invulnerables which means they're still better in Assault than anything else.
But, I will mention that they are the 'worst' Assault Troops in the CSM Codex. Not that that's saying much. Kind of like how Kroot are the 'best' Assault Troops for Tau.

Well, a 50% loss of attack number in comparison to everything else is kinda a fairly big deal.
And while they are on par with Imperial Tactical Marines in terms of power per marine, you have to consider you get a lot more Tactical Marines (or regular Chaos Space Marines) for the same points, so in terms of a close-combat-power vs. point cost ratio, they are actually far, far worse. And Tactical Marines already suck in close combat anyway, from a Chaos player's point of view.

Noise Marines...'without their Sonic weaponry'...I wasn't even aware that was possible. Still, I'll make a mention of it.

It would be rather pointless.
Still, by default they are equipped with bolters, and their sonic weapons are upgrades. Which allows you to mix and match - you could, for instance, get a Noise Marine team with blastmaster only for long range support, no doomsiren or sonic blasters, hereby saving points. I hear it's a pretty popular way to use Noise Marines, actually.
Though personally I intend to give sonic weapons to all of my Noise Marines, for style reasons alone.

Just checking, Plague Marines also come in boxes of 7 for a greater currency cost than Noise Marines or Beserkers, who come in boxes of 8 and 12 respectively. And that just doesn't make any sense.
Grats GW.

It's probably because Berserkers are plastic, Plague Marines are almost entirely metal (and I'm not sure about Noise Marines, but I think they are hybrids with a rather high amount of plastic). They went with the holy number for Plague Marines; for Noise Marines, they probably felt 6 was too greedy, so they went with 8 instead (which means a moderately small number of three boxes give you a multiple of the holy number, at least).

Like, as in, there are people who don't want Lash?

Having a Daemon Prince dedicated to Slaanesh does not necessarily make sense fluff-wise in every army list.

Never really having played Chaos Marines in 4th/5th, nor do I particularly want to, and never having played any Chaos Marines in any tournament I've been to since the advent of 4th/5th. So, I've never taken any interest in tournament lists. But, I believe you.

He is right, I've heard that too. It's commonly called 2/9, for two Lash Princes, 9 Obliterators (occasionally swapping some of these for a Defiler or so), and the rest is filled up with Plague Marines.

I agree with him on all other accounts, too, by the way; what he writes is 100% congruent with my personal impressions and everything I have read.

[Oslecamo]

Having a Daemon Prince dedicated to Slaanesh does not necessarily make sense fluff-wise in every army list.

Cheesegear usualy sugests using the Space Wolf codex for any Space Marine army you're doing since they're clearly stronger than the vanilla ones. He also susgests that Khorne is awright with Psyker powers despite going to great lenghts to kill psyker whenever he can, so I would totaly see Cheesegear using a demon prince of Slaanesh with lash of submition painted red on a Khorne-themed army.

[Cheesegear]

Cheesegear usualy sugests using the Space Wolf codex for any Space Marine army you're doing since they're clearly stronger than the vanilla ones.

Well that's just not true. If you don't want to use special characters;
Codex Space Marines: Ultramarines, White Scars/Ravenwing, Iron Hands, Raven Guard*
Codex Space Wolves: Imperial Fists, Salamanders and Deathwing
Codex Blood Angels: Raven Guard*

*Raven Guard are depending on whether you like Scouts or Assault Marines better.

I even use Codex: Space Marines to fuel my LAND SPEEDERS FOR THE LAND SPEEDER THRONE!!! BIKES FOR THE BIKE GOD!!! Obsession.

He also susgests that Khorne is awright with Psyker powers despite going to great lenghts to kill psyker whenever he can

I believe I once said that Khorne 'Sorcerers' have loads and loads of combat drugs and neural implants in themselves that Angron himself was so fond of. I can't see anything wrong with using a Sorcerer with Warptime with a Force Vorpal Weapon. Every other cut means he's decapitating someone on the first hit.

so I would totaly see Cheesegear using a demon prince of Slaanesh with lash of submition painted red on a Khorne-themed army.

As long as I called it something else. Sure, why not? Hell, I don't even have to re-theme. I'm already allowed as per Codex to have a Nurgle 2/9 Khorne army led by a Slaanesh prince.

[Winterwind]

[...] using a demon prince of Slaanesh with lash of submition painted red on a Khorne-themed army.

Well, technically, the enmity between Khorne and Slaanesh is a concept from the third edition that is simply not existent in the current fluff. While I, personally, happen to like the relationships between the gods and their holy numbers, and pay attention to them in my army-lists as much as possible (without hampering the army's effectiveness too much), strictly speaking people who completely ignore these are not breaking the fluff - contrariwise, it's the people who claim these enmities exist who are directly contradicting the currently official fluff.
Current fluff says that while all gods are fighting each other, there are plenty of temporary alliances in all combinations, and a Keeper of Secrets might well be leading legions of Bloodletters. And that's for daemons; with Chaos Space Marines, even permanent alliances, genuine friendships, fraternal bonds or subjugations by force may exist.

(as a side note, I intend to make a small - or potentially not so small - Emperor's Children warband in addition to my usual Black Legion one, who may often fight side by side. The justification: The leaders of both happen to be best friends. That's all. I decided upon that because it's so completely unlike what one would usually expect for the treacherous followers of Chaos.)

But I think this might be better suited for the fluff thread...

[slimy_te_t_cles]

Aren't they T6 W6 monstrous creatures? As an Ork player that freaks me right out.

That's odd - it's the orcs that normally freak my MC's out - have they still got sergeant power klaw and cheap rokkit lauchers?
The only way to make a Tervigone kill enough stuff is to A-have him munch on a tank or B give him toxic miasma (which I agree would make him a kind of scary prospect for orcs).

Hmm...
If I swapped 2 thropes for 3 Rending raveners, that would give me 15pts to add Toxic Miasma to the Tervigone

[Cheesegear]

That's odd - it's the orcs that normally freak my MC's out - have they still got sergeant power klaw and cheap rokkit lauchers?

Yes. Yes they do.

[slimy_te_t_cles]

Orcs aren't much of a problem anyway unless you use elite combat troops like stealers and warriors. As i'm sticking with gaunts orcs will be easy to swamp and kill (if they have large units - paroxsym, if they have small units I auto win cos i'm Nid horde)
I've though more about the zoan swap for raveners--> not worth it, you lose range, synapse and 3+ invun to gain, um, worse anti-tank
I could split the thropes into 2-3 units but then they suck for kill points (if your army list says they are seperate FOC, they give killpoints) and it wouldn't be that much better to warrant giving away free KP's

[evisiron]

Orcs aren't much of a problem anyway unless you use elite combat troops like stealers and warriors. As i'm sticking with gaunts orcs will be easy to swamp and kill (if they have large units - paroxsym, if they have small units I auto win cos i'm Nid horde)
I've though more about the zoan swap for raveners--> not worth it, you lose range, synapse and 3+ invun to gain, um, worse anti-tank
I could split the thropes into 2-3 units but then they suck for kill points (if your army list says they are seperate FOC, they give killpoints) and it wouldn't be that much better to warrant giving away free KP's

Of course orcs won't pose a problem. Bows and the like are pretty weak.

Orks on the other hand will give you a good bit of trouble.

Seriously though, never presume that Orks will be easy to swamp as they could have 180 models from troops alone.
Also, if they have small units it is because they either a)will hit much harder - as with Nobs and MANz or b) Be much faster and more maneuverable.

I don't have the new nid codex though, so I am bit foggy on their abilities.
And if you wouldn't mind informing me, what is 'paroxsym'?

[DaedalusMkV]

He really gets that much out of 1 extra attack? I think the loss on the ability to take Psychic Powers (any Power) far outweighs the benefit. Even an Undivided Prince (painted Red and Brass) with Warptime would be way better? No?

Like, as in, there are people who don't want Lash?

But, doesn't do real well when they don't get to Assault first (which you can't do on the turn you jump out of a Rhino). The fact that Khorne also needs other units from the Codex to work (Obliterators, Defilers or even Vindicators), means they lose another point. Khorne - when done right - is still looking at *** from me.

No. 1K Sons don't suck in combat. They're just not as good as the rest of the Codex (they lose one attack, *shrug*). Since they're still Space Marines, that isn't saying much. If the Sorcerer is carting Gift of Chaos twice a turn, it can get quite messy since the Spawn that ensues is under the Chaos player's control. Goodbye Independent Character, goodbye unit Sergeant. etc. Welcome my own Spawn.

I'm just going to adress these four points.
1: IMO, the three best DP setups are Slaanesh/Lash (for cheesemongers only) Khorne and Warptime, all with Wings. Warptime is better that MoK when it's active, but it's over twice as many points for the upgrade and far less reliable thanks to Psychic tests and enemy Psychic defenses. Khorne is only slightly less powerful and easier to use. So yeah, Lash>Khorne=Warptime.

2: Yeah, there are those of us who play noncompetitive games or make fluffy lists, on occasion. I'll trot out the Lash Prince if I want to really school someone, but mostly they stay well out of my list.

3: You can, however, assault out of a vehicle as long as it didn't move. khorne in Rhinos simply drives up to the enemy and uses their Smoke Launchers. The enemy has to try to overcome those three Rhinos with full cover or they're going to get slaughtered. On occasion I play with or against full Khorne lists, they work really well if you know what you're doing. Even without Heavy Support.

4: No, they suck. Let's run a tally:
50% more expensive than Tac marines. So, they're either outnumbered in combat or the enemy has a bunch of free points elsewhere.
No pistols, no Frag Grenades: Hey, looks like the Loyalists are universally better at charging, for less points. Huh.
S&P: Hmm... Always count as moving through cover. With no grenades. So, if you do find yourself charging for some insane reason, you go last. No matter what. Wonderful.
4++: Good against Power Weapons, not so useful against normal attacks. Which are still going to be enough to crush you.

Not only point-for-point, but man-for-man the TS are worse at assault than Tactical Marines. Since we all know that Tactical Marines are barely competent in assault unless they're beating on something that truly sucks, like Tau or small units of IG, I can rightly say that TS are terrible combatants. They lose to Kroot (point for point), for goodness' sake! Using Gift is going to require either A: Your enemy was an idiot and left a squad within 6" of you without charging or B: You lasted through two rounds of CC without losing the Sorc. Neither is particularly likely, which is why Gift is generally considered to be a fun power rather than a competitive one. Warptime works better, but results in my questioning why you'd pay that many points for a combat boost in a shooting specialized squad.

Well, that went longer than I thought. Anyways, good luck with the guide, Cheese. It is a good idea, even if I disagreed with your opinions a lot.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I don't have the new nid codex though, so I am bit foggy on their abilities.
And if you wouldn't mind informing me, what is 'paroxsym'?

Range 12 psychic power, any 1 non vehicle unit has BS and WS 1 until start of your next turn.

[slimy_te_t_cles]

Of course orcs won't pose a problem. Bows and the like are pretty weak.

Orks on the other hand will give you a good bit of trouble.

Seriously though, never presume that Orks will be easy to swamp as they could have 180 models from troops alone.
Also, if they have small units it is because they either a)will hit much harder - as with Nobs and MANz or b) Be much faster and more maneuverable.

I don't have the new nid codex though, so I am bit foggy on their abilities.
And if you wouldn't mind informing me, what is 'paroxsym'?

Orcs/Orks oops my bad - although I'm not sure the Hive mind cares who they feast on - they're very tolerant and multi-cultural like that ;P

Paroxysm completely nullifies most elite combat units (except for hood ofc) making them need a 5+ to hit anything or 6+ at long range

If the orks have 180 troops how many points is that?
1800 at least [I think orks are 10pts basic correct me if I am wrong]
Realistically a 1500 horde of orks is going to consist of around 100-140 footsloggers. If they do this preferred enemy kind of rocks (also big units paroxysm, small units consume under a horde of small S4 I5 gunfodder).

The massive size of all my broods means killpoints are really hard to get, and even the dreaded ork bikers will have to run around shooting me (and the termagaunts will hopefully win that contest) and then the flyrant can always decide to go spend some quality time with them.

[edit] oops forgot grots
grots are imba but if someone wins with them fair enough (they cost soooo much)

[Arcanoi]

Orcs are SIX base points for per Boy, so they come in at the same cost as your Broods. An Ork player with lots of Footsloggas might possibly outnumber you.

[slimy_te_t_cles]

Wow - 6 points for a T4 furious assault A2 model *gulp*
Umm ok, orks will be hard to beat if they go horde.
When they are 6 points do they have a ranged weapon?
If not I'd have to skulk around making dead sure I got the charge, if so I'd just lose unless all my psychic powers go off.

[Closet_Skeleton]

They have pistols standard, so they have a 12 inch range attack and count as having two weapons.

[Thatguyoverther]

As long as I called it something else. Sure, why not? Hell, I don't even have to re-theme. I'm already allowed as per Codex to have a Nurgle 2/9 Khorne army led by a Slaanesh prince.

I can't wait to run a chaos army so I can convert a Daemon Prince of Nurgle to one of Slaanesh.

Something like one or these wearing one of these.

[Cheesegear]

No pistols, no Frag Grenades: Hey, looks like the Loyalists are universally better at charging, for less points. Huh.
S&P: Hmm... Always count as moving through cover. With no grenades. So, if you do find yourself charging for some insane reason, you go last. No matter what. Wonderful.
4++: Good against Power Weapons, not so useful against normal attacks. Which are still going to be enough to crush you.

But, now you've just gone and flat-out ignored TS's shooting. The game doesn't work that way. Even in friendly games, I'm yet to see a squad make it into Assault with Thousand Sons at full strength. You can't discount shooting attacks.

Well, that went longer than I thought. Anyways, good luck with the guide, Cheese. It is a good idea, even if I disagreed with your opinions a lot.

The point is to disagree. As I said a few posts earlier, and written in bold letters in the Guide itself, CSMs are one of my least-known armies and I want people to tell me 'how it is'.

In short;
Mark of Khorne on Daemon Princes/Lords isn't as bad as I think it is. I still think it loses on the ability not to take powers. I still say ** or ***
Thousand Sons 'suck' in close combat. But, only in comparison to other things in the army list. Or, at least, only against other Space Marines and dedicated Assault units (but, that's the point of dedicated Assault units, isn't it?). Take them down to ***
I underestimate T5 and FNP on Plague Marines. Even at I3.
- But, the models are pretty much all-metal and you only get 7. So, maybe I'll bump them to ***

Slaanesh still rocks like a Ducati?

...Keep in mind that the 'stars' are not representative of 'better' and 'worse'.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Just because a prince without psychic powers isn't as good as a prince with, it is sheer lunacy to say that ANY demon prince is... well, I'll just quote what you said.

Khorne Lords and Daemon Princes are considered to be the least efficient. The Daemon Weapon gives you double the chance to hurt yourself. As well as +2D6 Power Weapon attacks is pretty much overkill. You don't really need that many.
Their special character - Kharn - is quite good though.

What makes Kharn so much better in your eyes? Less wounds, toughness, and strength. A prince could take wings and a mark, have the same number of attacks as Kharn and a 12" movement, and still be 25 points cheaper.

He also won't kill your berserker's, can move through terrain, and is immune to instant death.

edit: of course I run my prince without a mark and with warptime, but it can still work the other way around.

another edit: I might have misunderstood that quote as well. I took it as you saying that for khorne, demon princes and lords were inefficient. But you'r probably stating that out of the 4 gods, khornate lords and princes are the least efficient. Which I somewhat agree with.

[slimy_te_t_cles]

Is it just me or are dreadnoughts of all colours underused - why when they are so good at tying troop choices up (thus preventing them capping objectives) and being able to make their points make easily with a couple of assault cannon bursts at some light (or heavy) vehicles.
I don't know their points cost so if that's the reason then shut me up quick - i'd pay around 140 points for an assault cannon and ccwpn equipped nought

[Closet_Skeleton]

- But, the models are pretty much all-metal and you only get 7. So, maybe I'll bump them to ***

I have some plastic plague marines but they're pretty darn ancient.

[DaedalusMkV]

I'd just like to point out that it's obscenely easy to convert the generic CSM into Plague Marines. Some Nurgle bits here, some armour damage there and liberal application of Greenstuff and you have some very good looking Plague Marines. I've never seen anyone buy more than one box of them, and that just for bitz. I certainly converted them, and it was the easiest full-unit conversion I've ever done. The boxes are admittedly poor value, though, so that is a strike against them.

[Cheesegear]

But you're probably stating that out of the 4 gods, khornate lords and princes are the least efficient. Which I somewhat agree with.

I should also point out (in case anyone missed it), my knowledge on Khorne-based armies comes from Myatar, even if he doesn't know I've been scoping his posts this whole time. Well, I have.

[Winterwind]

I have some plastic plague marines but they're pretty darn ancient.

So they had plastic models already and then went back to metal? Why?

[Cheesegear]

So they had plastic models already and then went back to metal? Why?

Presumably because they were single-piece models and still had Plague Knives.