Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight.

[Winterwind]

By the way, what is the best way to deal with Thunderhammer/Storm Shield Terminators? Last game on Saturday, me (Chaos Space Marines) and my ally (Chaos Daemons) slaughtered a unit of them, but only because we had pretty much won by that point and could field excessive amounts of force against them (like sacrificing a Chaos Daemon Daemon Prince that did get killed by them, but managed to take most of them down in the fight - a net win for them in points, only in our case it was a minor hit to our remaining forces, in their case it was killing off their second last unit).

I figure one would want to shoot them with lots and lots of plasma/other DS1/2 things, but it's not like that sort of firepower is so abundant...

Also, Dark Eldar retinues are scary. In the same game, the Dark Eldar Archon and Drazhar took on a Chaos Lord, a Khornate Berserker squad, a team of 10 regular Chaos Space Marines and a freaking Bloodthirster, all at once, and three or four combat phases later, the Archon was still standing (though he would have died next phase, as his Shadow Field finally broke down). He ended up being the only thing to survive on their side.

...no, I do not know what business loyalist Space Marines had allying with Dark Eldar.

[Cheesegear]

By the way, what is the best way to deal with Thunderhammer/Storm Shield Terminators?

Nothing. Their 3+ Invulnerable will keep them alive for a long, long time. The only thing you have going for you, is that fact that they don't have ranged weapons. I suggest spamming Vindicators and Defilers. Plasma Cannons if you've got 'em.

Also, Dark Eldar retinues are scary. In the same game, the Dark Eldar Archon and Drazhar took on a Chaos Lord, a Khornate Berserker squad, a team of 10 regular Chaos Space Marines and a freaking Bloodthirster, all at once, and three or four combat phases later, the Archon was still standing (though he would have died next phase, as his Shadow Field finally broke down). He ended up being the only thing to survive on their side.

Incubi are known to be the best unit in the entire game. In a retinue, a Dark Eldar Lord no longer counts as an IC and can't be targeted, and effectively has 10 Wounds. Drazhar is just deadly. He shouldn't be 90 points. Since he already has 3 Wounds, in addition to his Meatshields...Err...Other Incubi.

I'm really not surprised they took down everything.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Keeping your Independent Character that far away is kind of hard. Especially when you're the one getting Assaulted. It's best just to not even try it. If it was so easy to stay away from them, they wouldn't be so feared. But, they are feared. Because it's not easy.

It's not particularly difficult to keep your IC out of BtB with any enemy model though.
Still, best not try it. Better to use your PK Nob who will kill it to death.

[Selrahc]

Incubi are known to be the best unit in the entire game. In a retinue, a Dark Eldar Lord no longer counts as an IC and can't be targeted, and effectively has 10 Wounds. Drazhar is just deadly. He shouldn't be 90 points. Since he already has 3 Wounds, in addition to his Meatshields...Err...Other Incubi.

I'm really not surprised they took down everything.

It kind of surprises me. Incubi hit like a train, but despite being one of the toughest units in the Dark Eldar army, are fairly weak defensively. If all that stuff hits them at once they really should shatter.

[Winterwind]

Nothing. Their 3+ Invulnerable will keep them alive for a long, long time. The only thing you have going for you, is that fact that they don't have ranged weapons. I suggest spamming Vindicators and Defilers. Plasma Cannons if you've got 'em.

*grumble*
I do have a reasonable amount of AP1/2 weapons, but I was hoping there was some trick to deal with these monstrosities. Oh well. Fortunately they come in small numbers...

Incubi are known to be the best unit in the entire game. In a retinue, a Dark Eldar Lord no longer counts as an IC and can't be targeted, and effectively has 10 Wounds. Drazhar is just deadly. He shouldn't be 90 points. Since he already has 3 Wounds, in addition to his Meatshields...Err...Other Incubi.

I'm really not surprised they took down everything.

Well, all they took down were 6 berserkers, actually; fortunately, all Incubi had previously died to a lucky plasma cannon hit, so only the Archon and Drazhar remained to make it into close combat.
It's just that this annoying 2+ Invulnerable save of the Archon refused to fail like twenty times in a row.

Oh, and one more thing:

That's not how it works. You don't need to be in BtB. All's it takes is to be within 2" (so, you can be around 3" away) of another model in BtB as described by the diagram on page 41 of the Big Black Book. As the whole unit now counts as being in combat with the Independent Character.

Keeping your Independent Character that far away is kind of hard. Especially when you're the one getting Assaulted. It's best just to not even try it. If it was so easy to stay away from them, they wouldn't be so feared. But, they are feared. Because it's not easy.

Except the Librarian is an Independent Character himself, so that "be within 2" of a model in BtB" doesn't work for him. He can target only units he himself is in BtB with, regardless how close he is to however many other models that are in BtB with whatever. So, no, all you need to do to keep your Independent Character safe is to keep him out of BtB with the Librarian.

So, actually, Ninja Chocobo is right. This is how it works. If the Space Marine player gets the assault on you, you are pretty assuredly screwed, but if you get the charge, it should be pretty easy to prevent the Librarian from being capable of attacking your Independent Character.

[Ninja Chocobo]

So, actually, Ninja Chocobo is right. This is how it works. If the Space Marine player gets the assault on you, you are pretty assuredly screwed, but if you get the charge, it should be pretty easy to prevent the Librarian from being capable of attacking your Independent Character.

Ahahaha. You tell me I'm right like half an hour after I assume I'm wrong. Neat.

[Winterwind]

Ahahaha. You tell me I'm right like half an hour after I assume I'm wrong. Neat.

My apologies. I'm badly underslept, it took me way too long to notice it.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Nothing. Their 3+ Invulnerable will keep them alive for a long, long time. The only thing you have going for you, is that fact that they don't have ranged weapons. I suggest spamming Vindicators and Defilers. Plasma Cannons if you've got 'em.

Callidus Assassins?

I always take one when playing witch hunters and sometimes as allies in other imperial forces.

[Winterwind]

Callidus Assassins?

I always take one when playing witch hunters and sometimes as allies in other imperial forces.

Well, of course Callidus Assassins, Pariah, Necron Lords with Warscythes or C'Tan (maybe some more things I'm forgetting) would cut right through the termies, but none of these exist in the Chaos Space Marine codex. I had asked what I could do against them.

[† Dran †]

well if my 2 games today have taught me anything Furoso dreadnoughts with blood talons are nuts. Managed to clean up TH/SS termies and shooty termies in one round of combat each. Coupled with av13 front armor and ws6/s6 they chew through infantry so easy even with a +3 inv.

That said in a chaos list best bet is oblits and Defilers. pie is your friend and forcing them to take saves is the easiest way to get rid of them. even a 2+ save is going to fail once and a while.

[Cheesegear]

Oh, and one more thing:
Except the Librarian is an Independent Character himself, so that "be within 2" of a model in BtB" doesn't work for him. He can target only units he himself is in BtB with, regardless how close he is to however many other models that are in BtB with whatever. So, no, all you need to do to keep your Independent Character safe is to keep him out of BtB with the Librarian.

Here's how its done;
Have your unit in a circle surrounding the Independent Character of your choice.
When your unit gets Assaulted, the - let's say - Librarian should be an unengaged model in the centre of the circle. During your pile-in move, as the Librarian is unengaged, he can move 6" Pile-In wherever he wants. Including into BtB contact with ICs.

If the Space Marine player gets the assault on you, you are pretty assuredly screwed, but if you get the charge, it should be pretty easy to prevent the Librarian from being capable of attacking your Independent Character.

Only if the Space Marine player doesn't put his Librarian in the front of the unit (before Assault) to be Assaulted/Engaged first and unable to make a 6" Pile-in move wherever he wants.
This is - of course - not a tactic 'casuals' or 'new players' know. As a lot of people normally put their ICs front and centre of a unit. The worst place to be.

Like I said; Librarians are feared. 'Staying away from them' just isn't that easy against a tournament-level player.

I have seen a Space Wolf 'power list' with four Rune Priests doing just this. One of those Rune Priests was Njal Stormcaller. It wasn't pretty.

To be honest, it's only a problem for Orks (where most Warbosses carry Klaws and go last) and other I3 armies. If the Librarian can direct against you, you can direct against the Librarian. He's only got I4.
But, then you've got characters like Typhus, Skulltaker and Tyranid gribblies with Boneswords...And Swarmlord. Run. Run from the Swarmlord.

[Winterwind]

That said in a chaos list best bet is oblits and Defilers. pie is your friend and forcing them to take saves is the easiest way to get rid of them. even a 2+ save is going to fail once and a while.

Well, at least my 2k list features three Obliterators and quite possibly (haven't entirely decided) a Defiler, too.

The single Obliterator I had in the last few games pretty much always did a marvelous job, killing his points worth several times over and annihilating the biggest threats without fail.

Here's how its done;
Have your unit in a circle surrounding the Independent Character of your choice.
When your unit gets Assaulted, the - let's say - Librarian should be an unengaged model in the centre of the circle. During your pile-in move, as the Librarian is unengaged, he can move 6" wherever he wants. Including into BtB contact with ICs.

Ohhh, I see.

Only if the Space Marine player doesn't put his Librarian in the front of the unit (before Assault) to be Assaulted/Engaged first and unable to make a 6" Pile-in move wherever he wants.
This is - of course - not a tactic 'new players' know. As a lot of people normally put their ICs front and centre of a unit. The worst place to be.

Indeed - I had not thought of it either. My sincere apologies.

Like I said; Librarians are feared. 'Staying away from them' just isn't that easy against a tournament-level player.

I have seen a Space Wolf 'power list' with four Rune Priests doing just this. One of those Rune Priests was Njal Stormcaller. It wasn't pretty.

To be honest, it's only a problem for Orks (where most Warbosses carry Klaws and go last) and other I3 armies. If the Librarian can direct against you, you can direct against the Librarian.

I'm rather glad to not be playing on tournament level just yet. I'm much happier being capable of choosing my units based on a mixture of effectiveness and fluff/what-models-do-I-like, rather than effectiveness alone.

[Cheesegear]

I'm rather glad to not be playing on tournament level just yet. I'm much happier being capable of choosing my units based on a mixture of effectiveness and fluff/what-models-do-I-like, rather than effectiveness alone.

...Why do you hate my Hawk Lords?

Are you telling me my Imperial Fists aren't fluffy? After I spent like, 3 whole pages of thread trying to make sure that they were?

[Winterwind]

...Why do you hate my Hawk Lords?

Are you telling me my Imperial Fists aren't fluffy? After I spent like, 3 whole pages of thread trying to make sure that they were?

Erm... I didn't mean to say tournament lists were not necessarily fluffy. What I meant is, Chaos Space Marines for instance always run those dual Slaaneshi Daemon Prince + 9 Obliterators lists. Now, if I have a mighty Space Marine leader in mind who feels the Imperium is the worst thing that could happen for mankind, who genuinely thinks the Chaos Gods are beings worthy of worship that can bring salvation to the human race, and accordingly follows all four of them, and who clings to his mortality because his sole motivation lies in the material universe and is to bring down the Imperium in its current form and bring all of the human race into the embrace of the four gods - i.e., my undivided Chaos Lord - that is slightly incompatible with that list. And I'm rather glad to be playing on a level where a simple Chaos Lord with a Daemon Weapon is still a viable choice, rather than having to pick two Slaaneshi Daemon Princes just to have a chance to win at all.

[Closet_Skeleton]

There are some truly broken theme lists out there.

I built a unit of sword brethren assault terminators out of a bow of wolfguard terminators and used them for the first time today with a reclusiarch leading them and a land raider crusader.

They killed:

10 plague bearers (it was 2v2)

a battlewagon

5 mega armoured nobs

Taking one casualty from the plague bearers.

They didn't spend long in the crusader since I took second turn and the battlewagon went forwards full throttle.

[Cheesegear]

There are some truly broken theme lists out there.

All-Scout SM List - Pedro Kantor => All Sternguard/Scout list
Raven Guard
I'm actually *Headdesking*. I've found a use for Kor'Sarro. He gives Tactical Genius to most of your army. Outflanking Land Raiders. Gogogo...Although you can get Reactive Deployment in other ways without needing Kor'Sarro; Kahn is the only one who will let you do it with a Land Raider.
All-Slaanesh CSM List
All-Nurgle Chaos Daemons army with Epidemius and Ku'Gath (needs two Uniques to work, think about it)
A Blood Angels army built around Astorath.
Mechanised (as in; Land Raiders) Blood Angels
Mechanised (as in; Land Raiders) Black Templars
Infantry Guard
Vehicle Guard (Imperial Guard are b0rked)
The Necron Phalanx
Any Dark Eldar list that has lots of Raiders and Incubi (i.e; All Dark Eldar Lists)
Eldar Jetbike armies.
Wazdakka Gutzmek and friends.
Mad Dok Grotsnik and friends.
Three Rune Priests and Njal Stormcaller.

All these are Themed Lists, and still ridiculously powerful.

[mr.fizzypop]

Me and my friends are having trouble taking down someone's 1000pt Eldar army. We were wondering if any of you guys could give us advise. I am currently using the Imperial Guard.
As far as I know this is his Eldar Army:

Spoiler

Show

1 Avatar
1 Farseer(Eldrad)
4 Warlocks
22 Guardians
10 Dire Avengers
6 Striking Scorpions
5 Rangers

His strategy seems pretty simple, he just keeps his warlocks and Avatar near Eldrad, so they can benefit from fortune. But he wins every single battle. I'm relatively new to the game, so I'm asking whats the best way to beat him with an Imperial Guard army. Also, my friends use Tyranids, Orks, and Space Marines, so any advise they could use is also helpful.

[DranWork]

got any tanks that pump out ordinance? If so just blow up all of his troops and hold your ground. once they are mush work on his "big" warlock/Eldrad/Avatar unit. Either go tank heavy and sit still or (better imho) go infantry heavy with lots of heavy weapons platforms and sit still. If its a capture game then wait untill he has little left then move a few squads up.

Really tho I dont know guard well enough to advise so this might be wrong.

[Arcanoi]

They're only five units with 19 S3 attacks, IIRC, and their ID attacks shouldn't bother you since your entire army has one wound. Just aim at his infantry, particularly the troops, and load up on heavy weapons. You can use BID against the Avatar and FRSRF against anything else. Unless the Striking Scorpions are in a vehicle, they're pretty useless anyway and should never actually get a chance to shoot.

[Ogremindes]

I believe the standard way of dealing with super-units that take up huge slabs of points is to avoid them as far as possible while getting on with the serious business of actually completing the mission. Neither Avatars nor Fareseer retinues can contest objectives. Let him have his unbeatable super-unit. It doesn't help if he can't hold a table quarter.

[Myatar_Panwar]

I believe the standard way of dealing with super-units that take up huge slabs of points is to avoid them as far as possible while getting on with the serious business of actually completing the mission. Neither Avatars nor Fareseer retinues can contest objectives. Let him have his unbeatable super-unit. It doesn't help if he can't hold a table quarter.

Any unit can contest. Unless of course Avatars and Fareseers have some weird rule that says they can't.

They don't need to cap objectives, just not let you cap any.

[Winterwind]

All these are Themed Lists, and still ridiculously powerful.

For the record, I'm not saying themed lists are weak. What I am saying is, certain choices in codizes may be sub-optimal and non-suited for high level play, so I'm glad to be playing on a level where I can survive taking a sub-optimal unit or several because I happen to like the unit's fluff or model.

Me and my friends are having trouble taking down someone's 1000pt Eldar army. We were wondering if any of you guys could give us advise. I am currently using the Imperial Guard.
As far as I know this is his Eldar Army:

Spoiler

Show

1 Avatar
1 Farseer(Eldrad)
4 Warlocks
22 Guardians
10 Dire Avengers
6 Striking Scorpions
5 Rangers

He doesn't seem to have much in the way of anti-tank weaponry, other than the Avatar and the Farseer with his council. Leman Russes and artillery would be your best bet.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Mad Dok Grotsnik and friends..

Not understandin' dis.

[Ogremindes]

Any unit can contest. Unless of course Avatars and Fareseers have some weird rule that says they can't.

They don't need to cap objectives, just not let you cap any.

*sigh* I knew I should've double-checked the rulebook.

[Winterwind]

The Necron Phalanx

I'm somewhat irritated by this one, too. A friend of mine keeps searching all sorts of WH40k forums for advice on how to play Necrons (which worries me a bit, because he invariably overshoots the goal in such games and ends up with a super-cheesed-out tournament list that is more often than not the exact opposite of fun to play against), and from what he tells me, the Necron Phalanx is considered to be an outdated construct that lost all viability with the 5th edition (die too quickly to template weapons, get broken and overrun when assaulted by anything moderately competent in close-combat); now Necrons seem to be all about using as many nigh-unkillable models (Monoliths, C'Tan) as possible while denying the opponent a chance to put them into Phase Out by keeping Necron Warriors in the reserve.

(assuming 'Necron Phalanx' is meant in the same sense as in the codex, i.e. large blocks of Necron infantry moving forward side by side)

[Erloas]

You can use BID against the Avatar and FRSRF against anything else. Unless the Striking Scorpions are in a vehicle, they're pretty useless anyway and should never actually get a chance to shoot.

Shooting isn't what Striking Scorpions do. They will eat anything in close combat that the guard can field (barring a few allies) and they can infiltrate or outflank, they don't need a transport.

Even with BID, it takes an insane amount of lasguns to bring down an avatar, though autocannons and heavy bolters shouldn't do too bad. Lemen Russes should do pretty good, but the avatar and warlocks/farseer all have 4+ invulnerables that are rerollable with fortune, so even thats not going to do great.


It will be hard to get rid of all of the guardians though because they are fearless with the avatar around (as is everything else in the army). And the Dire Avengers will easily win in a shoot-out with 1-2 guard units at a time, you would need at least 3-4 that can shoot at them to come out ahead.

What the is missing though, as mentioned is anti-armor. As the only stuff in the army that can is at 12" or less, though if they get into CC a vehicle is gone. Given the low anti-armor capabilities and the rerollable invuls you really just need massed fire and not worry about low AP. This might be a reasonable use for the punisher LR, and a hellhound would do well against the guardians and rangers (though it can't hurt the avatar, he is immune).

I would start by concentrating fire on the dire avengers (because they will be the first to start doing damage) and hit the scorpions hard as soon as they show up. Go after the guardians next. Then worry about the farseer and warlocks and the avatar last. I wouldn't worry about the rangers unless they are in a place you can get to them in melee fairly easily or can get something like the hellhound on them. The avengers, and guardians win games, the scorpions take opposing objectives, and the council and avatar are there to distract people from the real threats (at least in objective games). That is of course assuming the council aren't on bikes, because you have made no mention of it. You might change priority around a bit depending on who gets fortuned, because he can do that 3 times but there are 4-5 units that could benefit from it while on the offense.

[Zorg]

Me and my friends are having trouble taking down someone's 1000pt Eldar army. We were wondering if any of you guys could give us advise. I am currently using the Imperial Guard.
As far as I know this is his Eldar Army:

Spoiler

Show

1 Avatar
1 Farseer(Eldrad)
4 Warlocks
22 Guardians
10 Dire Avengers
6 Striking Scorpions
5 Rangers

His strategy seems pretty simple, he just keeps his warlocks and Avatar near Eldrad, so they can benefit from fortune. But he wins every single battle. I'm relatively new to the game, so I'm asking whats the best way to beat him with an Imperial Guard army. Also, my friends use Tyranids, Orks, and Space Marines, so any advise they could use is also helpful.

Here's a list I knocked up that might do the trick:

Spoiler

Show

1000 Pts - 5th Edition Roster

HQ: Company Command Squad (5#, 95 pts)
. . 2 Company Command Squad @ 95 pts (Lasgun x2; Medi-pack; Vox Caster)
. . . . 1 Heavy Weapons Team (Heavy Bolter)
. . . . 1 Company Commander (Refractor Field; Senior Officer)



Troops: Infantry Platoon (25#, 225 pts)
. . 1 Infantry Platoon @ 225 pts

. . . . 2 Platoon Command Squad (Lasgun x2; Medi-pack; Vox Caster)
. . . . . . 1 Heavy Weapons Team (Heavy Bolter)
. . . . . . 1 Platoon Commander (Laspistol; Close Combat Weapon; Junior Officer)


. . . . 7 Infantry Squad (Lasgun x6; Vox Caster; Grenade Launcher x1)
. . . . . . 1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant (Laspistol; Close Combat Weapon)


. . . . 7 Infantry Squad (Lasgun x6; Vox Caster; Grenade Launcher x1)
. . . . . . 1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant (Laspistol; Close Combat Weapon)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (28#, 275 pts)
. . 1 Infantry Platoon @ 275 pts

. . . . 2 Platoon Command Squad (Lasgun x1; Vox Caster; Grenade Launcher x1; Heavy Weapons Team)
. . . . . . 1 Heavy Weapons Team (Heavy Bolter)
. . . . . . 1 Platoon Commander (Laspistol; Close Combat Weapon; Junior Officer)


. . . . 7 Infantry Squad (Lasgun x6; Vox Caster; Grenade Launcher x1)
. . . . . . 1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant (Laspistol; Close Combat Weapon)


. . . . 7 Infantry Squad (Lasgun x6; Vox Caster; Grenade Launcher x1; Heavy Weapons Team)
. . . . . . 1 Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant (Laspistol; Close Combat Weapon)


. . . . 3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Autocannon x3)


Fast Attack: Hellhound Squadron (1#, 145 pts)
. . 1 Hellhound (Inferno Cannon; Heavy Flamer; Extra Armor)

Heavy Support: Ordnance Battery (1#, 75 pts)
. . 1 Griffon (Griffon Heavy Mortar; Heavy Bolter)

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Squadron (1#, 185 pts)
. . 1 Leman Russ Battle Tank (Battle Cannon; Heavy Bolter; Heavy Bolter Sponsons x2; Extra Armor)


Total Roster Cost: 1000

[Arcanoi]

Shooting isn't what Striking Scorpions do. They will eat anything in close combat that the guard can field (barring a few allies) and they can infiltrate or outflank, they don't need a transport.

Ah. My bad, I always get Striking Scorpions and Fire Dragons mixed up.

a hellhound would do well against the guardians and rangers (though it can't hurt the avatar, he is immune).

I thought the Avatar was only immune to Meltas? He's immune to flamers too?

[Dark Faun]

The Codex only mentions flamers and heavy flamers under the weapons that don't hurt the Avatar (in addition to all melta), but the errata specifies all flame weapons (incinerator, inferno cannon, inferno pistols, etc) actually count.

[Winterwind]

I thought the Avatar was only immune to Meltas? He's immune to flamers too?

Meltas and Flamers both. There is an Apocalypse formation that adds Plasma to the list, too.