Tooth and Tentacle [base class PEACH]

[Owrtho]

Ah yes. I missed that due to it being mentioned previously that those were the bonuses gained by only using basic eyes and special eyes. That said, personally I'm not sure that the AC and Reflex bonuses gained are too powerful, but then I have little experience in such high level play.

Owrtho

[Hazzardevil]

Is this class based on pride from full metal alchemist brotherhood?

Look's like a fun class.

[Necroticplague]

Is this class based on pride from full metal alchemist brotherhood?

Look's like a fun class.

This question was asked on page one, and given more precisely on page four, no. It's based on some obscure Japanese webcomic called Nijiura Maids.

[Jarrick]

Though you could certainly stat him out as one of these from what I've seen of him.

[Apowerfulfoe]

Hey, this is amazing. I am going to start playing a long term campaign starting at the first level. any suggestions. I was thinking about starting as a human and taking the homebrew feats that gives you claws and throwing daggers. Any advice would be welcomed.

[Sindri]

I'd personally recommend against basing grapple modifiers on limb size. From a balance point of view, it's already fairly easy to get huge grapple bonuses (long, Fine, coiling, hooked tentacles FTW) and an extra +16 from a colossal feature has a good chance of pushing them over the edge from "powerful" to "invincible" in a grapple, allowing them to automatically eat anything but undead and constructs. From a logic point of view, the massive tentacle grabbing them is still anchored to a medium body, so it wouldn't make much sense for it to get a size advantage over a huge opponent.

I don't think that the uncapped bonuses to AC and Ref from eyes are a problem. Yes, you can get them to very high values, but so can monks, rogues, clerics, etc. and because of this there are a lot of attacks that ignore those two stats. Meanwhile, with all your points put into defense, you can't fight very effectively and you can't change out to a more versatile form without several free minutes due to the number of features you have in play. Besides, it makes sense for the eldrich monstrosity to be able to simply ignore most conventional attacks if that's what it's focusing on at the moment.

Hey, this is amazing. I am going to start playing a long term campaign starting at the first level. any suggestions. I was thinking about starting as a human and taking the homebrew feats that gives you claws and throwing daggers. Any advice would be welcomed.

Make sure to pick up a bag of tricks. It's like a self-filling sack of fuzzy little healing potions.
Also, start convincing your party members to let you eat them early. It takes a while unless they're already crazy.
While this depends on your personal preferences, I'd recommend spending all your feats on aberrant feats; most of them improve based on how many you have and this class has the opportunity to get more of them and gains more benefit from each than anything else.
Weapons are a good idea for a few levels, but pretty soon the number and power of natural attacks you'll be getting makes them irrelevant (and somewhat harmful, as using one makes all your features into secondary attacks).
Keep your Charisma up. It gives you a few more form points, boosts your fear effect, increases the healing when you eat something, gives you more attacks per round, and much much more. Definitely your most important ability score.
Most importantly, remember: Illithids are delicious.

Though you could certainly stat him out as one of these from what I've seen of him.

Yup. You can also do Gluttony, Alucard, Sara Waite, Kirby, and most other shapeshifting maneating tentacled abominations.

[Magikeeper]

For a starting Ozodrin, I suggest Durable Form (+HP) and Deepspawn (Tentacles) myself. Also, remember that the intimidate skill can fear-stack with your manifest form power. That's a swift and a standard action to render an opponent frightened. Later on you could get the never outnumbered skill trick to scare multiple weak-willed opponents.

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I'd personally recommend against basing grapple modifiers on limb size. From a balance point of view, it's already fairly easy to get huge grapple bonuses (long, Fine, coiling, hooked tentacles FTW) and an extra +16 from a colossal feature has a good chance of pushing them over the edge from "powerful" to "invincible" in a grapple, allowing them to automatically eat anything but undead and constructs. From a logic point of view, the massive tentacle grabbing them is still anchored to a medium body, so it wouldn't make much sense for it to get a size advantage over a huge opponent.

But, the amount of points needed to get that +16 is more than what you would need to get a +16 via other sources. It actually results in a lower over all grapple modifier. Aberrant reach + extended reach for 15ft long fine sized hooked tentacles ftw. I'd want them to spend the points for at least one massive enough feature to use the improved grab. In any case, Ozodrin grappling is currently very confusing and we need to clearly state how it works.

I think... what size do tentacles start out as? It doesn't say...


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Primary stomach has an rp issue. It has no natural hazards in it, yet it can digest any form of loot in 20 rounds. ANYTHING. 200hp magic weapon? Solid block of magically reinforced obdurium? Yep, 20 rounds. If the primary stomach can do that, why can’t it hurt people on its own? And even if it can only absorb inanimate objects, what about stuff the eaten creature is wearing?

Hmm… I guess if it can only digest unattended inanimate objects… heh, make it non-magical unattended inanimate objects and eating bodies to find any hidden magical loot could be fun for the whole party.

[Sindri]

Primary stomach has an rp issue. It has no natural hazards in it, yet it can digest any form of loot in 20 rounds. ANYTHING.

I got the impression that it wasn't actually destroying anything, but unattended objects tend to get lost. After all, an Ozodrin isn't exactly euclidean; the block of indestructium is still in there somewhere, but no mortal will ever find it.

And yes, Aberrant Reach is a must for any Ozodrin; it basically means that all your attacks cost fewer form points (since you wanted to increase their reach anyway; the tentacles tend to become much more effective as they lengthen and this allows you to use the bite on adjacent squares without any extras), in exchange for a -1 to hit that you'd probably be dealing with anyway.

I'm pretty sure that tentacles start at size medium, 1d4 bludgeoning damage (20/x2).

[Owrtho]

I think... what size do tentacles start out as? It doesn't say...

Features with sizes are, unless otherwise noted, by default the same size category as the ozodrin (not counting the flesh augments that increase or decrease size).

Primary stomach has an rp issue. It has no natural hazards in it, yet it can digest any form of loot in 20 rounds. ANYTHING. 200hp magic weapon? Solid block of magically reinforced obdurium? Yep, 20 rounds. If the primary stomach can do that, why can’t it hurt people on its own? And even if it can only absorb inanimate objects, what about stuff the eaten creature is wearing?

There is what Sindri mentioned, but also the fact that only items on creatures devoured is subject to this. Devoured creatures aren't just swallowed, but actually eaten (along with chewing, and other things). Something that occurs during this process is the key factor that lets it get rid of the items eaten with the creature. Also why an ozodrin can use swallow whole to keep items safe out of the way without worrying about this.

Also, I do intend to update the first post with some of the things I mentioned before previously, but at the moment am mainly watching all you various people discuss the stuff to help me make some choices.
Or at least that's how I'm rationalizing my procrastination.
Owrtho

[Chronologist]

I am going to be playing a level 6 Ozodrin in a Pathfinder campaign, and I was trying to see how I could get the highest number of Form points. In the end I had 8 Aberrant feats, 3 of which were Farsapwn. Human feat, two flaws, Aberrant NAture at 1st level, and an Aberrant feat from a DM-approved template, plus the three basic feats at 1st, 3rd, and 5th level. Yay for PAthfinder increased feat progression.

That makes 16 bonus form points, with my Charisma of 23, 8 feats, and being level 6 gives the default pool of 18 points. That makes the total points 16+6+8+18 = 48 points. With 48 points, very little can get in your way and not get tentacled to death. You could have your mouth deal 10 Con damage a round in a grapple. You could have 48 eyes and be the greatest scout the world has ever seen, with Reflex saves that would make a Rogue envious. Even with a fairly even distribution to offense, defense, and utility enhancements, you're going to have half a dozen, highly damaging attacks with massive reach and an armor class that puts the Knight to shame.

For extra cheese, the Twisted Mind aberration feat from Aberration Blood Expanded here on the forum means that you have about as many power points as a Psion, able to choose level 3 powers, and can choose Discipline powers. So, you're not just a versatile combatant and utility character, you're also a psychic with a variety of exclusive powers that can made you even MORE deadly.


Anyway, aside for a Bag of Snacks, I mean Tricks, what else would be good equipment? I was considering house-ruling it that Ozodrin cannot wear armor, even if they are proficient, because of their nightmarish alternate forms. Maybe the Ozordin could be balanced by having the following class feature:

Equipment Dissonance: An Ozodrin in its monstrous form does not gain the benefit of equipment. When she changes to her monstrous form, all worn items cease to function and are integrated into a small pocket of the Ozodrin's stomach. When she returns to normal, all equipment returns to her person.
Special: Armor with the Wild Shaping enhancement, while normally for Druids, functions for an Ozodrin while in her monstrous form.

With maybe 4 or 5 Aberrant feats and 14 or 16 charisma, I think the Ozodrin is really good. It's just insane when you pump up the Form points

[Necroticplague]

Fun little trick (and good use of equipment): Take Aberrant Fighter, exotic weapon proficiency:spiked chain, quick draw. Walk around with a stomach full of spiked chains, and when combat start, grow a whole ton of arms, draw all your spiked chains, and grapple everyone within 15 ft multiple times.

[Chronologist]

That's an excellent point strategy, even more so when you take the aberrant feat that grants you 5 feet of additional reach and a -1 penalty on attack rolls. However, I don't think you get the automatic grapple from Snatch since it's a manufactured weapon.

Snatch should also be reworded for the Ozodrin; "An Ozodrin of 4th level considers all of its natural attacks granted from the Ozodrin class as viable attacks for the Snatch feat, not just bite and claw attacks". Otherwise, no love for the tentacle

By the way, you realize that with 6 mouths, my level 6 Ozodrin could make 6 touch attacks, start a grapple with each, and next round be draining upwards of 12 Con per round, right? Healing 6xCha mod 2 rounds later. And doing so at a safe 20' distance from my targets. With a grapple bonus upwards of +20, nothing can beat my grapple, so essentially I'm a walking Enervation wrapped in Evard's Black Tentacles shrouded in OWNAGE.

Yeah, this class isn't unbalanced at all.

In all seriousness, this class is awesome, and I look forward to playing as one.

[mrcarter11]

So while this class, is honestly really cool and quite flexible, I'm taking a guess it really isn't meant for use by someone who doesn't understand grapple rules very well In any case, tis a cool class and the mental images are awesome.. Maybe I'll get a chance to use it sometime.

[Sindri]

For extra cheese, the Twisted Mind aberration feat from Aberration Blood Expanded here on the forum means that you have about as many power points as a Psion, able to choose level 3 powers, and can choose Discipline powers....
Anyway, aside for a Bag of Snacks, I mean Tricks, what else would be good equipment?

The problem with your psionics plan there is that you're effectively a manifester of half your level, which means that at 6th level you can only spend 3 psi points at a time, barely enough for a level 2 power. And using it typically takes a standard action, which means that you can no longer full attack, grapple, or anything else that this class likes to do in combat. In my experience, you will never run out of psi points, and they give you some more out-of-combat utility (which is nice, since versatility is what the Ozodrin is all about), but they have little effect in combat. Unless of course you have enough time to buff properly, in which case you become a massive tentacled gish of death that can eat an illithid colony's elder brain. Like I did.

Equipment-wise, I think that a Cha booster is your top priority if you get chance; as previously stated Charisma is your most important stat and can boost practically everything if you do it right. Other than that, natural armor and deflection bonuses are always welcome, as are resistances. If psionic items are allowed, Gloves of Titan's Grip give you a hefty grapple bonus, and mean that you won't be tempted to spend one of your power choices on Grip of Iron, but at 14K they're pricey. Finally, a collection of potions and power stones will give you some magic/psionic effects that you don't need to produce yourself, which is always nice.

One final trick: the psionic powers (empathic transfer?) that take another's injuries onto yourself combine nicely with the bag of tricks (or edible opponents) to make you a secondary healer, and Body Purification fixes ability damage, currently your main weakness.
Oh, and Hammer makes all your touch attacks into 1d8 weapons. Mix with dozens of Fine tentacles for best effect.

Yeah, this class isn't unbalanced at all.

It's actually pretty balanced for a mid-high tier 3. You mentioned how powerful they are in a grapple, but that's too slow to take down a swarm of mooks and a single opponent will be tough or tricky enough that they have a good chance. Or you can make half a dozen respectable but not hugely powerful attacks. Or you can become an uber-tank, but that's useless without backup. Like the Swordsage, wildshape ranger, and other tier 3 classes you're powerful but not overly so, and versatile enough to never be trapped in one role.

[Necroticplague]

Take Strange Energies. Make a flesh with the secreting flesh augment as much as you can. Have the energy selected be positive energy. Any time you poke one of your friends, you heal them for a hunk of damage. Also damage any undead you poke. Unfortunately, there is no non-akward way to phrase healing yourself with this. For greater healing range, Use the feat that lets you shift parts of you onto different squares, if you can give up two points of healing.

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Also, I think there should be a simple augment to add energy to special eyes. Something like this:

Energetic Eyes: Additional Cost 4
Choose one of Sonic, Acid, Fire, Lightning, or Ice. Your gaze attack now deals this form of damage. You can only have a gaze attack deal one type of damage at a time. If this augment is used to give the gaze attack of an eye multiple energy types, you must choose which energy type to deal each time the gaze attack is used.

[Niezck]

So, say this class were to be taken in a game where book selection is severely limited, and Lords of Madness is inaccessible ... What would be a suitable replacement for the loss of abberant feats do you guys think?

[Chronologist]

Niezck, if the campaign already limits book selection, I doubt that a homebrew would be allowed.

However, if the DM in question does not allow Aberrant feats, but allows this class, I recommend making the Form point pool Cha + 4 x Ozodrin level. You will not have as many points as a character with multiple Farspawn feats, but you gain additional freedom concerning what feats you can choose. Naturally, you would change the bonus feats at 8th and (15th?) level to General or Monstrous Feats, and Aberrant Nature at 1st level should probably just grant you a +2 bonus to Grapple checks (the most likely choice of benefit for a normal Ozodrin). Overall, though, without Aberrant feats, Ozodrin lose a LOT of their flavor and combat potential.

Also, has anyone considered how this class would work in the Pathfinder system? Grappling works very differently there, also, size penalties are a lot less drastic.

Honestly, I'd prefer if, instead of having Farspawn, the base points for the Ozodrin were Cha + (2 x Aberrant Feats) + (3 x Ozodrin Level). That would allow more feat choices for cool Aberrant options, but less possible breakage concerning Form points.

[Niezck]

He's already allowed the class. We get the PHB and DMG, along with three of the complete books and a single other source - this is my single other source.

It's not a matter of limited books, it's a matter of restricting the complexity and obscurity of the classes.

Would anybody else agree that Cha + ( 4 X level ) would be an appropriate alternative?

[Magikeeper]

He's already allowed the class. We get the PHB and DMG, along with three of the complete books and a single other source - this is my single other source.

It's not a matter of limited books, it's a matter of restricting the complexity and obscurity of the classes.

Would anybody else agree that Cha + ( 4 X level ) would be an appropriate alternative?

Hmm... I would say 3 + Cha + (4 X Level) would be better as a normal Ozodrin starts with most of their fp coming from feats.

As for grappling, you can easily play an ozodrin that doesn't focus on it. Particularly at higher levels. Its just that grapple ozodrin own any singular enemy that is not immune to grappling due to getting devour way before their enemies can handle it.

I would honestly suggest devour and swallow whole switch places - I think it is obvious which of those abilities is stronger in combat. I'd even suggest removing the headache known as devour and simply add the ability to swallow whole at level 8. As in, you can attempt to devour any creature in your stomach. I've skirted the issue, but IMO it's always been the most likely reason the class would fail to make it into a game.

[Chronologist]

No Monster Manual? You need that for the Snatch feat, which lets you grapple and constrict enemies you hit in melee.

If he/she allows this class, that also means that you can use Farspawn and the other aberration feats on this thread, since it's the same source. That should help. Additionally, ask him/her if you can use the other homebrew Aberration feats on this site. Some of them include damage reduction, telepathy, psionic powers, and extra hit points, I think. That should get you on your way without needing a different number of Form points.

If I was DM, I'd allow my player to use all Aberration feats if they played an Ozodrin. If I allowed the Ozodrin, that is. Besides, according to your DM, you could declare Tome of Battle as your alternate source. In the face of that, I'm pretty sure you won't have trouble convincing your DM to let you use the feats you want.

[Magikeeper]

If he/she allows this class, that also means that you can use Farspawn and the other aberration feats on this thread, since it's the same source. That should help. Additionally, ask him/her if you can use the other homebrew Aberration feats on this site. Some of them include damage reduction, telepathy, psionic powers, and extra hit points, I think. That should get you on your way without needing a different number of Form points.

I would not suggest using the other aberrant feats on this site (Aside from the ones in this thread, of course). Many of them are much stronger than the book ones / the ones in this thread in order to make taking only aberrant feats an interesting possibility. But Ozodrin already gives bonuses for aberrant feats. You've already noted how cheezy the twisted mind feat is.
I think the Ozodrin is more balanced than you make it out to be. The only issue is the grappling confusion and the sheer power of Ozodrin grappling. I think changing devour will solve the second issue and reduce the first.

What are other peoples' opinions on devour?

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As for my playtest PC, the DM is lenient with races to the point that it would be suicide for me to playtest a true low-level Ozodrin like a normal party would have and survive. I'm having fun with it so far anyway, so thumbs up for Ozodrin in parties where everyone is a dragon or something.

[Chronologist]

Ultimately, I think the big issue with the class is Farspawn. With the +1 Form per feat, that's already pretty nice. Farspawn (the better one that gives 1 point per non-Farspawn feat you have) optimizes at 1 Farspawn per 2 Aberrant feats you have, making your extra Form pool (Feats / 2) squared, plus the number of aberrant feats on top of that. So, with 4 feats (easy to do at even first level) that's 8 extra form. With, say, 16 charisma, that's 14 form points at first level.

I think that the following would be a good change:

Base Form Points = 3 + Cha + 4 x level

Farspawn (Aberrant): You have greater reserves of monstrous power than other Ozodrin. You gain a number of additional Form points equal to your Ozodrin level.
Special: You may gain this feat multiple times. At 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level, you may take this feat an additional time, but not before.

Twisted Mind (Aberrant, Psionic): You learn one Telepathy psionic power per 2 aberrant feats. Your effective manifester level for these powers is 1/2 your character level, you cannot learn powers unless a Psion of your Manifester Level could learn it, and you cannot learn powers of 4th level or higher. You gain a number of power points equal to your Charisma modifier x your character level, but these power points can only be used to fuel powers known through Twisted Mind, and you cannot use normal power points to manifest powers known through Twisted Mind. In effect, the energy and understanding from Twisted Mind is so alien, so bizarre, that it is incompatible with any other kind of psionics.

Special: This feat does not make you psionic in the normal sense. You do not gain a Psionic Focus, you do not gain additional power points by manifester level, and you do not qualify for psionic feats and prestige classes based on manifester level.


Additional feats:

Rapid Evolution (Aberrant): Requires Ozodrin level 3. You are a genetic freak, able to shift your abilities even faster than normal. Whenever you take a move action to add or remove a feature, you may add or remove an additional feature.

Instant Evolution (Aberrant): Requires Ozodrin level 9, Rapid Evolution. You are even more abnormal. Once per round, as a free action, you may remove or add a feature.

Psionic Aberration (Aberrant, Psionic): Must have at least one different Aberrant and one different Psionic feat. Your psionic powers only serve you fuel your natural otherworldly psyche, and vice versa. You consider all Aberrant feats Psionic feats and vice versa. You are considered to have the Psionic subtype, and you gain 1 power point. Finally, you gain a +2 bonus to Will saves to resist Telepathy psionic powers.

Fixed/Balanced Feats

- Natural Armor 1 per 2 Aberrant feats
- Damage Reduction 1 per 3 Aberrant feats
- Hit Points 2 per Aberrant feat, regenerate limbs if at full HP
- +1 to social skill checks per Aberrant feat, if 4 or more Aberrant feats, then also Telepathy 5 feet per Aberrant feats

[Magikeeper]

First, about farspawn:

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Farspawn (Aberrant): You have greater reserves of monstrous power than other Ozodrin. You gain a number of additional Form points equal to your Ozodrin level.
Special: You may gain this feat multiple times. At 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level, you may take this feat an additional time, but not before.

This brings back the issue of the original farspawn (the 1 per 2 aberrant feats) – players that aren’t using feat tricks must now spend 4 out of 7-8 feats to be optimal. True, Ozodrins gain most of their early fp from feats (5 feats is easier than 4 given the bonus aberrant blood, and Deepspawn gives 6. With far spawn that is a total of 5 + 4 +6 = 15 extra form points), but any farspawn that isn’t based on how many feats you have results in groups that are not playing pathfinder or with flaws using most of their feats on farspawn. I don’t like that. Also 1 farspawn per 2 feats is way less than the number of points your feat gives past level 7 or so.

Farspawn : Feats : Fp gained
2 : 4 = 8
1: 5 = 5
3: 6 = 18
2: 7 = 14

At level 9 3 of your feats give 27 fp. A non-pathfinder game doesn’t have enough feats, even with flaws, to match that.

The biggest issue is…. Well, pathfinder actually. Although it is true that an Ozodrin can have over 20fp at level one, I don’t think that is actually unbalancing. At least, not in a game that allows flaws and such. The limit on natural attacks would result in you having 2-3 1d4+str damage attacks and maybe +4-5 to armor. A melee guy with 4 feats should be able to do similar damage. And taking farspwan again at level 3 would only give you 4 extra fp.

So, how about this:

Farspawn (Aberrant)
You're true nature is quite strong.
Prerequisite: Aberration Blood, Form Points
Benefit: You gain an additional form point for each non-farspawn aberrant feat you possess.
Special: You may choose this feat a multiple times, up to 1 + 1/3 your level in classes that advance the Ozodrin Manifest Form class ability (rounded down). Its effects stack.

There. It no longer goes nuts in pathfinder or with house rules that increase the number of feats player have.

On your other feat suggestions:

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New twisted mind: The idea of stopping at level 3 is somewhat balancing.

Suggested wording:
Twisted Mind (Aberrant, Psionic):
Prerequisite: Warped Mind
You learn one telepathy psionic power per 2 aberrant feats you posses. Your effective manifester level for these powers is ½ you character level, and you cannot learn powers unless a Psion(Telepath) of your Manifester Level could learn it, and you cannot learn powers of 4th level or higher. You gain an additional power point per two aberrant feats you posses (this stacks with warped mind). Whenever the number of aberrant feats you have changes, recalculate how many psionic powers you know and how many pp this feat gives you. The save DCs of your powers are charisma-based.

Warped mind already gives 1 point per aberrant feat. These two together will give the average ozodrin 4pp at level one without flaws. By level 6 you would have 7pp without flaws, and by level 10 you would have 12fp without flaws. I think this is balanced. In pathfinder you can get 15+ at level 10, which is a nice amount, but a psion could do plenty of things with that many feats.


Psionic Aberration (Aberrant):
Prerequisite: Aberration blood
All psionic feats you possess count as aberrant feats for all purposes. You may select a psionic bonus feat whenever you would be able to select an aberrant bonus feat. Furthermore, you are considered to have the psionic subtype, and you gain 1 power point. You gain a +2 bonus to Will saves to resist mind-effecting effects.

^This is more in line with the other feats-count-as-aberrant feats.

Rapid Evolution/ instant evolution: Eh, I’m not sure I like these. Ozodrins are limited to choosing their forms before combat until high levels. Which is just fine IMO.

On feat fixes:

+1 on social skills per aberrant feat is a lot. That’s much stronger than massive spot. I would do +1 per 2 aberrant feats.
Durable form is just fine as it is, no need to add regenerating limbs (not that that would be overpowered or anything though.)
DR 1/3 over what?

So, opinions on devour?

[Chronologist]

I like your version of Farspawn more, actually, That's a better fix IMO.

I think that Twisted Mind should upgrade your power point pool from Warped Mind to your Manifester Level from Twisted Mind x 1/2 your Charisma modifier. That gives you a little more use out of your powers, and gives you about as much as the bonus PP a low-level psion would get. I still think that the pool should be separate from standard power points.


Before I forget, I think that Devour's main issue is how much Con damage you can do per round. If that was reduced, I see no problem with the ability. Maybe if the Mouth upgrade for increased Con damage was removed, that would be better, or instead limiting the maximum amount of Con the Ozodrin can "eat" per round.

Thrall Link (Aberrant, Psionic)
Prerequisite: Aberration subtype, power point pool
Benefit: You emanate an empathic field much like that of a Thrallherd. For every Aberrant feat you possess, select one of the following skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Sense Motive. You gain a +1 bonus to all uses of that skill. You may select the same skill multiple times, its effects stack.

I like the idea of Durable form granting limb regeneration in addition to extra hit points. The damage reduction would probably be bypassed by Cold Iron or some sort of Far Plane material. It might be nice to have a feat progression of Durable Form -> Natural Armor -> Damage Reduction.

[Sindri]

Take Strange Energies. Make a flesh with the secreting flesh augment as much as you can. Have the energy selected be positive energy. Any time you poke one of your friends, you heal them for a hunk of damage.

This is a very common misconception, but has no basis in the rules of the game. Just because something says "positive energy" doesn't mean that it's good for you, or that it's worse for undead than for normal people. There are already several spells that deal positive energy damage; it's just like any other form of damage unless the text specifies that it heals (in which case you can assume that it harms undead, because that's in the creature type description instead of each individual spell).

If he/she allows this class, that also means that you can use Farspawn and the other aberration feats on this thread, since it's the same source.

The only problem with this is that Aberrant Blood is a prereq for all those, and it comes from Lords of Madness and has never been reprinted. You should talk to your GM and either get an alternate means of acquiring form points worked out or get the other Aberrant feats added. The class just doesn't work without a few of them, and they're nowhere near the obscure game-breakers that he's worried about. If he refuses, make your one other source either the Tome of Battle or the Spell Compendium and show him the error of his ways. Arbitrary unilateral restrictions to make it harder to break the game are what rulebooks are for; GMs need to decide things on a case-by-case basis such that they actually work.


As for the feat suggestions: I don't think that the +1 to social skills per aberrant feat is too much. It sounds like a huge bonus, until you remember that you're getting a -1 to social skills for every aberrant feat just from the creepiness of them, so you aren't going from average to awesome, but rather from crappy to average in most cases.
I think people are overestimating the value of Farspawn. Unless you're playing pathfinder, E6, or some other game where you get feats faster, you shouldn't be wasting any. Yes, spending 4 of your 8 feats of Farspawn gives you 16 more points, but 3 of the 8 gives you 15 points and another feat. When you consider that most Aberrant feats give you a new body part to trade for a point anyway, and some (deepspawn and darkspawn) give you several, in addition to the whole benefit of the feat, Farspawn becomes a lot less valuable unless your only goal in life is to have one more form point than anyone else. I could see taking it once, maybe even twice if I didn't have anything else to do, but you hit diminishing returns and crippling overspecialization very fast.

[Niezck]

Would the following be a reasonable replacement for the availability of aberrant feats (including the ones in this thread)?

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Form Points = 3 + Cha + (4*Level)

Aberrant Affinity grants +4 to grapple checks instead of the aberrant feat ability.

Basic tentacles are available at 1st level, though 3rd level is still required to apply augments (as per the Deepspawn feat taken at 1st).

+5ft Reach at 8th, reflecting Inhuman Reach.

Form Points change to 3 + Cha + (5*level) at level 15.

[Chronologist]

I was thinking, why should you have a feat that grants a bonus to Form based on the number of Aberrant feats you have? You already get that from Ozodrin anyway. What if, instead, you had a feat that gave Form points and made Aberrant feats better? I propose the following feat:

Farspawn (Aberrant)
Prerequisite: Aberration subtype, Form point pool
Benefit: Your connection to the Far Realm is stronger than others of your kind. You gain 3 additional Form points. You may take this feat multiple times, each time, the number of Form points you gain increases by 1. You can take Farspawn a number of times equal to 1 + 1/3 your Ozodrin level.
Special: This feats counts as two feats for the purposes of any other Aberration feats you possess, including the penalty to skills incurred by having Aberrant feats.

This reduces the exponential curve of Form points at high levels, and generally ensures that Form points never increase to ludicrous levels. A character will have to choose between having a large Form pool or having a variety of Aberrant abilities. At most, you can take the feat 7 times, gaining a total of 42 form points. Compared to Farspawn, that's a lot less potential abuse.


The main difference is that Aberrant feats reduce Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, and Handle Animal, while the feat gives a bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive. With the feat, you end up having a penalty to Disguise and Handle Animal, and a bonus to Bluff, Intimidate, and Sense Motive. This might be an appropriate change:

Thrall Link (Aberrant, Psionic)
Prerequisites: Worldy Guise class feature, power point pool
Benefit: You emanate a continual aura of psychic influence, similar to that of a Thrallherd. You gain a bonus equal to 1/2 the number of Aberrant feats you possess to all Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks when dealing with intelligent creatures within 30 feet. In addition, as long as you maintain your Worldly Guise, you may gain the benefit of this feat while suppressing the normal social penalties for having Aberrant feats.

Flood Psyche (Aberrant, Psionic)
Prerequisites: Thrall Link, 3rd level
Benefit: You can flood the minds of those around you with psionic noise, making it difficult for them to concentrate on their surroundings. This ability affects all intelligent creatures within 30 feet. First of all, they take a penalty to concentration and autohypnosis equal to the number of Aberrant feats you possess. In addition, they must make a Will save DC 10 + 1/2 your level + your Charisma modifier or be affected by the Id Insinuation power for one round per 3 aberrant feats you possess. Enemies affected by this power or who save against it are immune to further uses for 24 hours. This is a Mind-Affecting Telepathy effect, and can be activated as a free action.

[DruchiiConversion]

Arbitrary unilateral restrictions to make it harder to break the game are what rulebooks are for; GMs need to decide things on a case-by-case basis such that they actually work.

Hi, I'm the GM in question. I wanted to explain my motives behind doing this kind of restrictive book-limiting.

I'm running a campaign which - to date - has 27 registered players, and 1 registered GM. Some of these players cannot optimise their way out of a wet paper bag, others are past experts and are looking to find their characters ahead of the power curve at all times.

As such, what I really need to focus on is making that not ruin the game for other people. The way I'm doing that is by forcing specialisation - the Druid, for instance, 3.5's poster-child for 'better in melee than the fighter, plus full-caster' (or "I'm a druid! I have class features more powerful than your entire class!", I believe a wise man once said). Under this arbitrary ruleset, the Druid must choose between having access to the Spell Compendium's significantly more potent selection of spells, or the Monster Manual's access to forms to Wild Shape into - and *not* both. Similarly, Wizards find themselves cursing me for not having both the Spell Compendium and the Monster Manual for Polymorph forms/summons. Meanwhile, the Big Stupid Fighter is quite happy! He's picked up a couple of Completes, and the Tome of Battle, and that's good enough to contribute in a very real way, especially at the low levels where the campaign is focused.

Now, handling it on a case-by-case basis would maybe work, sure - but with this many players, that's going to take me a -lot- of time. I'm already likely to spend a significant percentage of my total free time running game sessions - I *don't* want to have to look at how each different character's feats interact with one another, and if any of it gets ridiculous. Worse, if I do that, I may find myself in a position where on one character a feat is fine, but on another it would be unbalanced - if I make inconsistent decisions and am perceived to be playing favourites, my campaign dies a messy death.

So no, I'm not concerned with an overly high power level here - I just have to stick to the rules I've set out, since I set them out for a reason and expect them to deal with some far worse problems down the line. However, if I start making exceptions left right and centre, that's just not going to cut it.

While I understand you disagree with that position, I must say I feel that comments such as:

If he refuses, make your one other source either the Tome of Battle or the Spell Compendium and show him the error of his ways.

simply don't help. If I'm very leery of allowing homebrew for reasons of consistency between a very large group of players, I deserve to have my game broken open as 'punishment'? Really?

Thanks to all who've tried to help us make this work.

Cheers,
-DC

[Magikeeper]

To Niezck: Yeah, that sounds fine.

Sindri: I was going to give a talk about how breaking the game to prove a point is not a good idea, but Niezck's DM beat me to it. Also, Chrono is playing pathfinder, which is why the farspawn issue is coming up. Otherwise I agree with you on farspawn.

More farspawn talk:

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This reduces the exponential curve of Form points at high levels, and generally ensures that Form points never increase to ludicrous levels. A character will have to choose between having a large Form pool or having a variety of Aberrant abilities. At most, you can take the feat 7 times, gaining a total of 42 form points. Compared to Farspawn, that's a lot less potential abuse.

Again, this raises the issue of making uniform farspawn optimal. Even moreso than before. It may have less potential abuse (in pathfinder, anyway), but it isn’t very fun when the best Ozodrin take the same feat 7 times. Most Ozodrin won’t take the current farspawn more than 1-2 times. I designed the original (not current) Otherworldly Skill and Aberrant Monstrosity to give players a huge yet balanced selection of aberrant feats to pick from to prevent an obvious uniform build from forming (I’m happy with the current ones btw). The entire reason I designed the feat-based farspawn was to prevent players from feeling pressured to spend most of their feats on Farspawn.

Remember that there are some Ozodrin players that will only see ~10 feats period, 11 if you count aberrant blood, 12 if you count improved grapple. Until you get the horror ability, 19 levels = 57fp. With any 11 aberrant feats that’s 68 + cha mod. Let’s say you have a +10, for a total of 78. Even then, +42 is more than a 50% increase in fp at level 19. It is optimal, 7 aberrant feats are unlikely to beat that. Especially since the remaining 3 feats get turbo-charged by your farspawn. Taking only 6x farspawn reduces that number to +33, 5x reduces it to +25, 4x to +18, 3x to +12.

At 12 feats (using otherworldly skill with improved grapple), the current farspawn can give a max of +36 for 6 feats. 5x gives +35, 4x farspawn give +32 fp, 3x farspawn give +27, 2x give +20. Stopping point is less obvious (Likely 3-4 if you want to be optimal).

There are two feats in the game that work like your farspawn – psionic talent and that factorium one. Each individual PP is worth way less than each FP and I’m pretty sure optimal high-level factoriums take as many of their point-boost feat as they can (correct me if I’m wrong).

Comments on Thrall link and co:

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Thrall link : I actually preferred your previous version. Although, if you removed the worldly guise requirement and just required aberrant blood along with the [Psionic] tag the newer one could work. You can have a “special:” bit at the end to note the additional interaction with worldly guise, should the PC have it.

Flood Mind: Um, how do you deactivate it? Is it a constant effect? If it were a standard action attack I could see this feat being more reasonable.

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To Owrtho: What is your opinion on my suggested changes to Devour and Swallow whole? I think they should at least be switched around, as devour is deadlier. Also, I think devour should involve digestion. Like, you can start absorbing the essence of creatures stuck in your stomach. Works better with the stomach feature too. Otherwise devour is sort of the odd duck out. Also, I think such a new devour would be less... wordy.

[Sindri]

Hi, I'm the GM in question...

I apologize; I was unaware of the situation. In your case, with that many players, you are effectively writing a rulebook rather than making case-by-case decisions. I also, see how exceptions, even minor ones like allowing the Lords of Madness aberrant feats, might damage the campaign if one player with a bad attitude starts complaining about favoritism to others who, due to the size of the group, are insufficiently familiar with the character in question to understand. Under the circumstances, I believe that your approach is the correct one.

As for the following comment, it was meant to suggest that the player demonstrate that there were a multitude of more powerful or game breaking builds within the rules established, not to suggest that they deliberately use one of these hypothetical characters to destroy the campaign; the goal was to educate rather than punish. In retrospect, I spoke hastily and unclearly and would like to apologize again.


On a lighter (and more on-topic note), I think the newest suggested Farspawn variant is moving in the wrong direction. By making the benefit of each successive Farspawn feat increase, and giving them more synergy with other aberrant feats than the others, you encourage players to take nothing but Farspawn and possibly one or two of the feats that increase in power with each other.